historical rads salary

[drboris]

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Were Rads making this much money (esp compared to other specialties) 10 or twent years ago? Was lifestyle better than as well?

 

[hans19]

Rads salary appears to have increased significantly within the last ten years.

But in absolute terms rads salary has simply kept up with inflation. In the early 80's a rad made roughly 200k. Today he/she might make 300k. In the early 80's the price of the average home nationally might have been ~100K, now the national average price of a home is $150k.
This is better than a lot of fields in medicine which have seen a decrease in compensation when adjusted for inflation. IE an FP doc that made $130k in the early 80's may make $150K today.

BUT closer examination reveals that the price per radiologic study has either stayed the same or even decreased. The professional fee for reading a chest film today is something like $25. This was essentially the same reimbursement as 10-15 years ago. Some studies such as CT or MRI reimburse less than 10 to 15 years ago. The big difference is there has been an increase in radiologist efficiency. With the advent of PACS and faster image acquisition the rads can read many more films per unit time than 10-25 years ago. As a result volume has increased several fold. In the past a radiologist would come into the hospital infrequently on call. Now a days its not uncommon to have a nighthawk.

Radiologists are making MORE because they are doing a lot MORE work.

-Hans

 

[Docxter]

The $25 maybe what you bill for; but on average you probably collect less than $9 for that chest x-ray, depending on the state and your insurance company mix.

Hans19 is absolutely correct that considering inflation, the reimbursement per radiologic studies has mostly decreased, with just a few not changed over the last decade or two. The way radiologists have been able to maintain income has been by working harder and more efficiently and also longer hours, and taking much more call than before. The majority of radiology departments are now providing overnight services (either in-house or teleradiology) which was not the case 10 years ago (hence the stereotypes of radiologists among other services, which do not apply anymore since nowadays, the radiologist is probably working more than they do). According to the AMA, the number of average hours radiologists work is the same as orthopedic surgeons and just 2 hours per week less than general surgeons.

So the answer to the OP's question is, yes, they used to make decent money before as well, but now, they have to work much harder to maintain that level of income.

 

[Hudson]

According to the AMA, the number of average hours radiologists work is the same as orthopedic surgeons and just 2 hours per week less than general surgeons.

-Doxter- I have read this statement before and find it somewhat hard to believe based upon the radiologists/orthopods/ and gen surgs I know. Generally speaking I think that orthopods and Gensurg guys work much longer hours than radiologists. Do you know the specifics of where these #'s of hours worked came from? From your experience do you think that the hours are accurate. I think that either the gensurg/ortho hours are under-reported or the Rads hours are over reported. I think probably the prior. Any thoughts?

 

[WaitingForJuly]

From your experience do you think that the hours are accurate. I think that either the gensurg/ortho hours are under-reported or the Rads hours are over reported. I think probably the prior. Any thoughts?

There are going to be regional and practice differences but in my experience talking to the local private practice groups the hours seem correct. A full-time diagnostic rad is going to be working about the same number of hours as a surgeon. I would estimate that our local interventionalists work more hours than the general surgeons around here and that is after the vascular surgeons and cardiologists have absconded most of the peripheral vascular work. A friend of mine is doing a surgery internship at another hospital and he was impressed that as he was walking by the IR department on his way out of the hospital at 11PM they still had 3 cases on the board to do that day.

The benefit of rads is that you can choose to work part time if you want, an option not open to most clinicians.

 

[Whisker Barrel Cortex]

Private practice radiologists do work some pretty long hours. Radiology is now 24/7. In many smaller groups, you are taking call q4 nights, which may mean you just stay late or you actually get called several times a night to read studies. One radiologist in the rural midwest is solo and has had no luck in finding a partner. He works 7am to 8pm every day, goes home, has dinner and sees his wife and kids. Then he gets on his computer and reads out more studies, sometimes till 11pm at night. With the continued shortage of radiologists and ever increasing volume of studies, many private practice radiologists are forced to work these long hours. Of course the financial benefits of such hard work are substantial.

There is the option, however, of working for a larger group in a more urban setting with much better hours. This results in much lower, but still great income (~600K vs 250K).

 

[Resident Alien]

Id take the 250 any time 😉

 

[bente]

The benefit of rads is that you can choose to work part time if you want, an option not open to most clinicians.

Actually, most specialties now do have this option. The rapid rise in female physicians in the 80's helped pave the way for part-time work. I personally know FP, IM,Peds, surgeons, IM subspecialties etc who do utilize this option. I think rads lends itself to locums very well, since no one knows (and hence, no one cares) who the rad is that's reading their study that day. Contrast that w/ OB - the locums doc will be seeing some bummed ladies who have connected w/ their regular OB.
Rads makes a lot/hr, as Cuts has pointed out in past. But you do work for it. An article in JAMA (nearly a decade ago) had listing of docs salary/hr..was quite interesting. The key was, no surprise, procedures. And ENT won. I've been BS'ing w/ them and they would compete who did the most PE tubes in one AM..sounded awful, but major k-ching.

 

[CSI Miami]

What would you spend $400 K per year on.

You'd be paying an awful lot of tax.

 

[Docxter]

The key for me is lifestyle... I'll take lifestyle over super-high pay any day. And unlike other fields where you give one up for the other, with Rads you can choose... you can do IR or Neuro IR and bust your chops and clear 1 mill or you can do VRC telerads working 26 weeks/year M-F 9-5 from an over-the-water hut in Bora Bora and make 250K after taxes. You pick your hours, you pick your location, you pick how much you want to work and how much you want to earn. No other specialty bar none gives you that kind of flexibility.

Not dealing with gomers and insurance BS etc. is icing on the cake.

Of course, let's hope it stays like this for a while...

Man, you're still delusional. I thought internship would make you come to your senses, but apparently not.

1. NOBODY, and I repeat NOBODY will pay you 250k (post-tax) for a 9-5 job working 26 wks, regardless of location. You won't make even close to 250/yr for that kind of part-time work. Just don't go and take a mortgage based on these delusions.

2. You still have to fight insurance companies and medicare for reimbursement. If you collect 40-50% of what you bill, you'll be extremely lucky.

 

[Docxter]

According to the AMA, the number of average hours radiologists work is the same as orthopedic surgeons and just 2 hours per week less than general surgeons.

-Doxter- I have read this statement before and find it somewhat hard to believe based upon the radiologists/orthopods/ and gen surgs I know. Generally speaking I think that orthopods and Gensurg guys work much longer hours than radiologists. Do you know the specifics of where these #'s of hours worked came from? From your experience do you think that the hours are accurate. I think that either the gensurg/ortho hours are under-reported or the Rads hours are over reported. I think probably the prior. Any thoughts?

In my experience, a large number of private practice rads work just as much as surgeons. So, in my experience, the statistics are right on. Maybe that's not the case where you are. And I see no reason why surgeons would "under-report" their hours. In any case, I believe the official AMA statistics much more than my own personal experience, any other SDN member's experience, or even the collective experience of the 1000 or so students or residents that populate this board.

 

[Hudson]

QUOTE=Docxter]In my experience, a large number of private practice rads work just as much as surgeons. So, in my experience, the statistics are right on. Maybe that's not the case where you are. And I see no reason why surgeons would "under-report" their hours. In any case, I believe the official AMA statistics much more than my own personal experience, any other SDN member's experience, or even the collective experience of the 1000 or so students or residents that populate this board.[/QUOTE]

It seems like my observations are the minority. Do you know if the survey included time on call as hours worked? Another interesting angle on these #'s would be to see if they were the average # of hours worked/week/year vs #hours worked/week "worked." If the first is true then radiologist work even more hours/week b/c of the larger amount of vacation time. I am assuming the statistics are based upon the second assumption. Even if radiologist work as many hours/week as surgeons, I bet they work far less hours per year due to the larger amount of vacation time in comparison to their surgical colleagues. I bet the average radiologist takes 7-9 weeks of vacation per year, where the average surgeon probably takes 2-5. That extra month can do a lot to keep you sane. Bottom line is that Rads is a harder working specialty than most non-rads attendings lead 3rd year students to think. I do think radiologists have a larger amount of protected time and tend to be happy with their lifestyle ( skip the intro and look atcritical factors profiles at the following website:

http://www.smbs.buffalo.edu/RESIDENT/CareerCounseling/intro.htm

At my school most people going into rads are the types that work their asses off when working, and like to kick back when they are off. This may be the best personality type for rads if the new work hour statistics are accurate. Work hard, play hard.

 

[Docxter]

It seems like my observations are the minority. Do you know if the survey included time on call as hours worked? Another interesting angle on these #'s would be to see if they were the average # of hours worked/week/year vs #hours worked/week "worked." If the first is true then radiologist work even more hours/week b/c of the larger amount of vacation time. I am assuming the statistics are based upon the second assumption. Even if radiologist work as many hours/week as surgeons, I bet they work far less hours per year due to the larger amount of vacation time in comparison to their surgical colleagues. I bet the average radiologist takes 7-9 weeks of vacation per year, where the average surgeon probably takes 2-5. That extra month can do a lot to keep you sane. Bottom line is that Rads is a harder working specialty than most non-rads attendings lead 3rd year students to think. I do think radiologists have a larger amount of protected time and tend to be happy with their lifestyle ( skip the intro and look atcritical factors profiles at the following website:

http://www.smbs.buffalo.edu/RESIDENT/CareerCounseling/intro.htm

At my school most people going into rads are the types that work their asses off when working, and like to kick back when they are off. This may be the best personality type for rads if the new work hour statistics are accurate. Work hard, play hard.

Good point. Radiologists do have more vacation time than surgeons (except those that are solo or in very small groups which can't afford to a lot of vacation time or those working at academia which get the standard 28 days off.). Another interesting twist that I recently learned from my co-residents that are graduating this year is that some select groups do advertise 10-12 weeks vacation time and it is in your contract, but in reality no one takes more than 3-5 weeks, because of staff shortage and that they don't want to be labeled as slackers. Also, if you are a partner in a group, you will not take vacation if your group has too much work to do.

I think it is generally true in radiology: work hard, play hard.

 

[Khurram]

Man, you're still delusional. I thought internship would make you come to your senses, but apparently not.

1. NOBODY, and I repeat NOBODY will pay you 250k (post-tax) for a 9-5 job working 26 wks, regardless of location. You won't make even close to 250/yr for that kind of part-time work. Just don't go and take a mortgage based on these delusions.

2. You still have to fight insurance companies and medicare for reimbursement. If you collect 40-50% of what you bill, you'll be extremely lucky.

My friend who just finished his about a few months ago from Atlanta has gotten three job offers for 300K (post taxes) and 26 weeks vacation...so it DOES happen.

 

[Docxter]

My friend who just finished his about a few months ago from Atlanta has gotten three job offers for 300K (post taxes) and 26 weeks vacation...so it DOES happen.

But he isn't going to only work 9-5, is he? Oops, did you forget that part? And did he sign into one of those groups?

Sarcasm aside, it's really not that simple. You can't say, "OK, there's this much pay and this much vacation, so I'll be golden". There are too many details and intricacies in contract writing and negotiation that can turn an apparently great oppotunity into a nightmare. Many groups, especially the ones that are crappy or located is less desirable locations or less desirable practice environment, adverstise a lot of mind-blowing benefits, vacation, and pay, but when you get the contract, there are many many provisions as to the amount of pay or it's increase, time to partnership, guarantees as to whether one would be made partner, buy-in rules and fees, the circumstances under which will be allowed to take vacation (what's the use of having 26 weeks of vacation in your contract if they won't let you take it?), call schedule and frequency, disparities between partners and non-partners, etc.

You really need to research the group that you are joining and hire a contract lawyer to review and analyze your contract before signing. How many have left the group in the past few years and why? What happened to the people that left? Some even have an accountant go over the finances and books of the practice before they join, to make sure the practice can deliver what they are advertising.

Last note. Many groups in the southeast are notorious for flashy advertisements (pay - vacation - benefits), but screw the new people they hire and fire them just before they are eligible to make partner. With the no compete clause in their contract, they can't practice in the community in which they have bought a house and established themselves and they have to move. So your friend should be very cautious.

 

[Goober]

My friend who just finished his about a few months ago from Atlanta has gotten three job offers for 300K (post taxes) and 26 weeks vacation...so it DOES happen.

personally I find this very hard to believe. I have friends in private practice in Atlanta and briefly looked into jobs there very recently.

To clear 300 post-taxes you would have to be in the top tax bracket which means you have to be making the in the 550-600k range for a job with 26 weeks of vacation?!? Please tell me the name of the groups your friends got these offers from so I can tell my friends who are attendings in Atlanta who are getting 10 weeks and making a lot less than 650-700k to quit their jobs and where apply to.