Hmmmm....where to start....

[MJB]

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That is ultimately the question...Obviously, I'm a person that is looking to get back into the "school" game...I'm 28 and have a Bio degree from Baker University and working in the Pharma Industry, but have recently decided pretty much once and for all that I want to give Med School a shot. This has been solidified by a number of factors including not being totally happy with my career and also being a cancer survivor...spending all that time around the healthcare field made me realize just how much I wanted to be a part of it...

My wife is currently in Nursing school and will be finishing in Dec. of this year, so I'm looking to get started after that, as my salary will no longer be NECESSARY. I am trying to figure out whether to study hard and take the MCAT to see how I do before moving out of my current career to take some of the pre-reqs (I need a semester of Chem, a year of Organic, and a semester of Physics) or if I should just go back and repeat most of my pre-reqs to get the GPA up (3.02 undergrad, significantly hurt by one particular class) and brush up before taking the MCAT. This would require quitting the career and plunging in full time. I've been out of school for almost 7 years now, so this will be interesting...

Any tips/advice I can get will be helpful...I've already lined up a Dr. that I can shadow with and know of at least two more (surgeon and oncology) that would be very helpful. What other types of experience would folks suggest?

I'm looking at a goal of matriculating in the Fall of '07 with the BEST luck, and mayby '08 at the age of 32.

The reason it has taken so long to get back was mostly due to debt, and then putting my wife through Nursing school...Going to Baker and playing football in addition to going overseas for a semester lead to many CC bills that needed paid so continuing after my BS without income was not much of an option...

I look forward to this process...

 

[QofQuimica]

I'd suggest that you finish all of the pre-requisites first before taking the MCAT. While it's certainly possible to take it more than once, trust me when I tell you that you don't want to do that if you don't have to! The test is hard enough; don't go into it already behind the eightball because you haven't studied all of the subjects being tested yet. Starting to shadow is a good idea. Also, are you doing medical or other volunteering? That might be something you should look into doing as well if you are interested. In your case, I'd suggest working with cancer patients somehow, maybe for a hotline or some kind of support group?

 

[MJB]

Thanks, I'm actually thinking of doing a self-taught course of study by using Chem and Organic, Physics, etc.. books in addition to Kaplan and other reviews and practice tests. My goal is to see if I can do well enough to justify quitting my career and going back to school full time...

Thing is, I could stick with a career I don't want to be in all that bad and probably retire with ease in 15-20 years, or I can pursue what I really want to do...

I'm thinking about taking the test in August to see how things go...And I'm guessing if I can score in the 30 range, I will be very happy and motivated to get back to school.

Is research a "requirement" because that is something that just does not interest me at all.

How is "shadowing" and volunteer work documented?

 

[QofQuimica]

Doing research is not necessary to get into medical school. I would suggest that you not do research if it doesn't interest you, and ESPECIALLY not just so that you can try to impress the medical schools. I'm speaking from the side of someone who has been stuck with "training" reluctant pre-meds who are really just looking to write on their application that they "did research" but who are not particularly interested in actually doing the research. If you aren't enthusiastic about doing research, you will probably not have a very good experience doing it, part of which will be because whomever you are working with knows that you don't really want to be there, and is annoyed at having to waste his/her time on you. 😛 That being said, if you are a pre-med who does have even a slight interest in research (even if it's just for fun, not necessarily for your eventual career), then you should definitely do it, because it's a great learning experience. And as a bonus, some medical schools apparently do like to see that you have done research.

You will have to document your volunteer and shadowing hours yourself. It is basically an honor system; no one is going to demand proof that you spent 100 hours volunteering in the ER or 3 months shadowing Dr. Smith.

 

[MJB]

Thank you for the information Q!

I think I am going to go ahead with the self taught method for my first go around on the MCAT...and I think that I'm going to use the review books and the practice tests available. Would you have any other suggestions?

My hope is to score well enough to justify going back to school full time.

 

[jmugele]

Thanks, I'm actually thinking of doing a self-taught course of study by using Chem and Organic, Physics, etc.. books in addition to Kaplan and other reviews and practice tests. My goal is to see if I can do well enough to justify quitting my career and going back to school full time...

Thing is, I could stick with a career I don't want to be in all that bad and probably retire with ease in 15-20 years, or I can pursue what I really want to do...

I'm thinking about taking the test in August to see how things go...And I'm guessing if I can score in the 30 range, I will be very happy and motivated to get back to school.

Is research a "requirement" because that is something that just does not interest me at all.

How is "shadowing" and volunteer work documented?

I did the self study course after being out of school for about 9 years. I basically checked out science books from the library. I also signed up for a Kaplan course, but the classroom work wasn't that helpful. The written material was great, though, especially the flashcards. That plus tons of practice tests really prepared me for the actual thing. I didn't have to go back to school at all and did very well on the MCAT.

 

[MJB]

I did the self study course after being out of school for about 9 years. I basically checked out science books from the library. I also signed up for a Kaplan course, but the classroom work wasn't that helpful. The written material was great, though, especially the flashcards. That plus tons of practice tests really prepared me for the actual thing. I didn't have to go back to school at all and did very well on the MCAT.

You shall be an inspiration...knowing others have done it will be helpful...I would LOVE to have the problem of impatiently working my way through some pre-req's so I can apply, all the while having a good MCAT score from Aug. of '05!

 

[efex101]

Not to sound negative or anything....but taking the MCAT w/o having "most" of the pre-reqs is kind of counterproductive. The pre-reqs are there to prepare you for the MCAT. Most people that do the self study have taken the pre-reqs at some point in their life and just need to "brush up" before the exam. It just makes no sense to me...but hey whatever floats for your boat.

 

[QofQuimica]

Not to sound negative or anything....but taking the MCAT w/o having "most" of the pre-reqs is kind of counterproductive. The pre-reqs are there to prepare you for the MCAT. Most people that do the self study have taken the pre-reqs at some point in their life and just need to "brush up" before the exam. It just makes no sense to me...but hey whatever floats for your boat.

I agree with this. I had already taken the pre-reqs a decade ago in college also; I wasn't trying to learn them for the first time when I started studying for the MCAT.

efex, I spoke to the admissions office at Mayo and I am definitely going to apply there this summer. 🙂

 

[MJB]

I guess I'm trying to figure out what most non-trads in my position do...I absolutely cannot afford to go back to school right now (because my wife is in Nursing school), but I would like to know where I stand as quickly as possible so I can plan accordingly for the future.

Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to have been able to take those courses while working, but there is not a university within an hour of where I work that offers them at night, and let's just say my work schedule isn't all that flexible.

I guess the question is if I can risk giving up my career working for one of the best companies in the industry to pursue this without knowing if I have ANY chance of getting into school. Trust me, I have no problem with giving up this career if I can reasonably assume I can get in, but at this point, I have no idea if that is even a possibility. I figure if I can teach myself well enough to score even remotely decent, I have fairly good odds of getting back into school full time, improving my MCAT if necessary, and getting into Med School like I really want to.

The biggest component I'm missing is Organic Chem. I have had multiple Bio/Chem/Physics courses.

Am I to understand that many Non-Trads just quit their jobs and start going to school full time? That has to be it, unless they are lucky enough to live in a place where you can easily pick up those courses at night or through some other avenue, right?

I appreciate any and all input.

(Took my first VR practice last night!)

 

[samenewme]

I guess I'm trying to figure out what most non-trads in my position do...I absolutely cannot afford to go back to school right now (because my wife is in Nursing school), but I would like to know where I stand as quickly as possible so I can plan accordingly for the future.

Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE to have been able to take those courses while working, but there is not a university within an hour of where I work that offers them at night, and let's just say my work schedule isn't all that flexible.

I guess the question is if I can risk giving up my career working for one of the best companies in the industry to pursue this without knowing if I have ANY chance of getting into school. Trust me, I have no problem with giving up this career if I can reasonably assume I can get in, but at this point, I have no idea if that is even a possibility. I figure if I can teach myself well enough to score even remotely decent, I have fairly good odds of getting back into school full time, improving my MCAT if necessary, and getting into Med School like I really want to.

The biggest component I'm missing is Organic Chem. I have had multiple Bio/Chem/Physics courses.

Am I to understand that many Non-Trads just quit their jobs and start going to school full time? That has to be it, unless they are lucky enough to live in a place where you can easily pick up those courses at night or through some other avenue, right?

I appreciate any and all input.

(Took my first VR practice last night!)

Well, the thing is that you can purchase past MCATs from AMCAS--all of them are real MCATS that have been given in the past. If you want you can get your wife to make you stand around for half an hour before letting you sit down to take it and make some noise while you're doing it better to simulate the real MCAT experience. 😉 You can take one, enter your answers on the site online, and get a score (except for the writing sample, but it's not generally the writing sample that keeps people out of med school). That should give you enough of an idea without spending three times as much on the real thing and having a less than stellar score on your record.

I have managed to work pretty much full-time while taking a class or two at a time, but I have a campus job and an understanding director, which doesn't apply to everyone. I do understand your dilemma.

If you like your practice MCAT score, you can work on those other areas of the application--volunteer work, shadowing, working with patients--until you are in a position to take classes. It's not your overall plan people are objecting too--just this one detail. Don't waste time and money or blot up your record on a real MCAT at this point. It's just not necessary.

 

[efex101]

the problem is that you "may" bomb the MCAT due to not having X or Y classes but this does *not* mean that you are not medical school potential..it just means that you did not have the correct tools to succeed on this exam. Like the above poster said just take some practice exams and this will give you a realistic view of what to expect. Yes, most pre-meds non-trad or not do go back to school at some point and take some classes. Adcoms not only want to know that you *can* take standardized exams and do well but that you have the ability *now* to take classes with a lot of information and at high speed..they usually want to see "recent" coursework in some way or form. So either way..you may have to take some classes. You have to think that you are going to be in schooling for at least seven years! so your pay will be minimal until you are done with residency...

 

[MJB]

I realize I am going to have to go back to school to pick the classes up...and I will likely have no choice but to get A's in all of them to give myself a good chance of getting in. The problem I have is this. I am supporting our house right now while my wife is in school. By this time next year, she will be out, and I will then be able to go back. This summer, I will have plenty of time to study, so I plan to take practice tests/study and see what happens. If those go well enough in my mind to take the test, I will likely go ahead with it. If not, I might work on taking it next April as I HAVE been able to find one Chem class I can take at night next fall. However, I figure that if I can't use my time to take a class right now (because they just aren't available during hours I am available), I might as well be making good use of the time.

Would you say that if I am consistenly scoring decently on the practices by say July 15 or so, I could go ahead and register and take it?

I took Verbal the other night and did fairly well, and will be doing BIO and PHY by the end of the week to see how that goes. The writing sample does not worry me much.
Please understand that I really appreciate the input and advice, but I'm trying to maximize use of my time so that I can hopefully get in as quickly as possible. If all goes well, I could matriculate in '07, but that is being pretty optimistic at this point. My goal is to matriculate no later than '08.

My big quandry is when to start applying? I COULD feasibly apply for '07 starting in June of '06, but I know I will have at least 2 pre-reqs left to take, and to be honest, I'm probably going to need to have some good grades in all my pre-reqs to bump my GPA up due to some rather irresponsible things done in undergrad. 🙂

Basically, I can wait until I have the ability to go back to school full time (which is what I'm going to have to do because of the lack of class offerings in the area) and THEN take the MCAT in MAYBE April of '07, but most likely in August of '08, or I can see what happens this time around, then figure out what to do with my future. I'm shooting for the 25-30 range this time around. Is that a reasonable goal? If I got a 30 (please realize, I just want IN to a med school at this point), would I even want/need to take it again?

 

[samenewme]

I see your point. IF you're getting good solid practice exam scores and you want to get the MCAT out of the way, it's not crazy to take it. Be sure to take at least two practice exams full-length to experience the total marathon. I took several full length, though without taking long breaks to simulate the fiddlefaddle of getting back in the testing room. And I STILL ran out of steam at the end of the bio section--I finished early, but then I made myself crazy looking back over my guesses and wanting to change things and I finally had to close the book and fold my hands and wait.

A thirty is considered a "solid" score. Whether you would want to retake and pull it up depends on how bad those bad, old grades are.

One thing I see time and again in non-trads, myself certainly included, is the sense that we have to make up for lost time and do this as fast as possible. Usually people catch themselves before they do anything crazy like take too many classes or overload themselves in some other way that affects their performance. It does make sense, given your schedule, to review for the MCAT and see how happy you are about your practice scores, but don't take it unless you're feeling super about it. Without knowing much about your total package, my best guess is that it probably makes the most sense to wait that extra year before applying. There is plenty you *can* do right now. This is a good time to shadow some physicians in practice if you don't have close contact with them now, or volunteer if you don't have good patient contact experience. Do those things that will be difficult to do when you are in school and are studying all the time.

Some med schools like a faculty reference letter from someone not in the sciences. Start thinking about an old prof from your past and see if you can get in touch. Do the little things. Make a list of them, and chip away.

I'm taking two years longer than my original "crazy plan" and one year longer than my "optimistic plan". But the difference between 40 and 41 to an admissions committee is not a great to them as it is to us.

Does this help?

 

[Law2Doc]

I took Verbal the other night and did fairly well, and will be doing BIO and PHY by the end of the week to see how that goes.

While it is useful to try all the sections early on to see where you need the most work, I think it's difficult to get a good read on how you would actually do on a real MCAT unless you take a "full length" test. A big part of the test is endurance, stamina and stress management. It's a marathon. How you do taking BIO as a single section is not going to be reflective of how you do when you've been previously taking the other sections all day and your brain is fried.
I also note that organic chem was a huge component of the biological sciences section of the particular MCAT I had, so without it, you'd be guessing an awful lot.
Finally, as to your previous question as to whether non-traditionals just quit their jobs and throw themselves into this process, without any real guarantee of success, I'd say for many the answer is yes. It's a very risky gamble, and not one to be taken lightly and without substantial soul searching and input from friends/family, but if it's what you really want to do with your life, it's worth it. Otherwise you grow old regretting that you didn't take a shot.

 

[MJB]

Actually, that does help quite a bit...

I plan to do a regimen of at least 5-6 practice exams, with study and review in between. I have figured out I can take these at approximately 2 week intervals over the summer.

The one I'm doing now, I'm doing "timed", but just one section at a time in the evenings. I know that won't prepare me for the rigor of test day, but it is getting me used to the types of questions to expect. For whatever reason, I'm pretty decent at the passage questions, even on the sciences...

I know I shouldn't rush...just difficult as I go through what must be a "I'm about to be 30 and haven't done anything" crisis...I feel like my 20's have been wasted, and I'm kicking myself for it.

I plan to do some shadowing this summer, and will volunteer with the ACS doing the Relay for Life (both as a volunteer and a survivor!). I guess I just figured I would have more time to do shadowing and get a job in a clinical setting (hopefully) when I got back to going to school full time.

This silly job (even though I'm grateful that it pays the bills) is sure getting in the way of a lot of my plans right now!.

I'm lucky in the fact that I have a relationship with an IM doc, an oncologist, possibly a surgeon, so hopefully shadowing will be easy to come by...and I would like to find a DO to shadow as well.

One thing I wonder about when it comes to things like applying and writing a personal statement is if my history with Hodgkin's Disease should even be brought up? Could the fact that I'm a survivor actually work against me? By this, I mean, would it be possible that the adcom would say....Well, he's been a survivor for X number of years...he could get it again while in Med School. I would hate to have to leave off one of the most significant ordeals in my life experience since graduating (not to mention my life)...but if it's going to work against, me, I would just as soon keep it quiet. Thoughts?

 

[MJB]

While it is useful to try all the sections early on to see where you need the most work, I think it's difficult to get a good read on how you would actually do on a real MCAT unless you take a "full length" test. A big part of the test is endurance, stamina and stress management. It's a marathon. How you do taking BIO as a single section is not going to be reflective of how you do when you've been previously taking the other sections all day and your brain is fried.
I also note that organic chem was a huge component of the biological sciences section of the particular MCAT I had, so without it, you'd be guessing an awful lot.
Finally, as to your previous question as to whether non-traditionals just quit their jobs and throw themselves into this process, without any real guarantee of success, I'd say for many the answer is yes. It's a very risky gamble, and not one to be taken lightly and without substantial soul searching and input from friends/family, but if it's what you really want to do with your life, it's worth it. Otherwise you grow old regretting that you didn't take a shot.

Do most people take practices online, or do they do a paper test?

I could see where if you will be taking the real deal on paper it would be to your advantage to take the practices on paper.

Another question is this...say I take all the practice AAMC tests this summer...where do I come up with more practices if I want to take the real deal later on? Are the TPR and Kaplan practices just as effective?

 

[efex101]

Okay first of all this is NOT a sprint (a mistake made by many non-trads) the process is big time like a marathon. I would take the "longer" route and do WELL actually let me rephrase this do EXTREMELY well (A's) and then take the MCAT ( the real one). You can certainly take practice exams this summer and see how it goes..if for some reason you are *consistently* scoring 30's and above then and only then would I sit for the real deal. Regardless you will still need recent classwork and with your schedule this will probably take you more than one year right? so you still have to take time to get there. Also, numbers are NOT the only thing you need..adcoms can fill classes with folks with just great gpa/mcat combos they want more! although working a FT job will be taken into account they still expect volunteering in your community for some substantial time in something that you enjoy and does not have to be medically related...they also want to see that you have exposure to the day to day activities and lifestyle that physicians have (not as a patient)..so you need time to also get these other "soft" things into place. I would really really really consider taking your time and NOT rushing through this so that you CAN be an excellent candidate. One of the major mistakes made by non-trads is the rush factor. These classes are no joke (chem/bio/physics) and on top of that work/family/volunteer/etc adds more intensity to this process. You just want to maximize your time (we all do) but not at the expense of running yourself/family ragged and being so stressed out that you will end up doing poorly.

 

[Cheerfulgrrl]

Actually, that does help quite a bit...

I plan to do a regimen of at least 5-6 practice exams, with study and review in between. I have figured out I can take these at approximately 2 week intervals over the summer.

The one I'm doing now, I'm doing "timed", but just one section at a time in the evenings. I know that won't prepare me for the rigor of test day, but it is getting me used to the types of questions to expect. For whatever reason, I'm pretty decent at the passage questions, even on the sciences...

I know I shouldn't rush...just difficult as I go through what must be a "I'm about to be 30 and haven't done anything" crisis...I feel like my 20's have been wasted, and I'm kicking myself for it.

I plan to do some shadowing this summer, and will volunteer with the ACS doing the Relay for Life (both as a volunteer and a survivor!). I guess I just figured I would have more time to do shadowing and get a job in a clinical setting (hopefully) when I got back to going to school full time.

This silly job (even though I'm grateful that it pays the bills) is sure getting in the way of a lot of my plans right now!.

I'm lucky in the fact that I have a relationship with an IM doc, an oncologist, possibly a surgeon, so hopefully shadowing will be easy to come by...and I would like to find a DO to shadow as well.

One thing I wonder about when it comes to things like applying and writing a personal statement is if my history with Hodgkin's Disease should even be brought up? Could the fact that I'm a survivor actually work against me? By this, I mean, would it be possible that the adcom would say....Well, he's been a survivor for X number of years...he could get it again while in Med School. I would hate to have to leave off one of the most significant ordeals in my life experience since graduating (not to mention my life)...but if it's going to work against, me, I would just as soon keep it quiet. Thoughts?

I agree with Efex - you should take the time to be the best applicant you can be.

Also, if you really want to go into medicine, then even if your gamble "fails" (eg you follow all the steps, carefully apply, etc and still after say 2x application cycle don't get in), you would still be prepared to work in a medical field - you would still have options. Indeed, adcoms often ask you what you will do if you don't get in, and along with re-applying, you should think about all the other medical fields (DO, PA, ANP, etc. etc.)

My point is that I appreciate the importance of lengthy rumination before making these choices, and I apologize for sounding cranky, but you seem a bit stuck on your "quick - to the MCAT!" plan. There are vast numbers of variables in this process, and there is no way to guarantee success, except by realizing that this (medicine) is indeed what you want in life, and thus attempting to succeed matters to you as much as a a guaranteed success.

My post-bacc years were very hard - I left a very successful career and was away from family - but I learned so much about myself and what I want to do in this world. How lucky I was that I could afford to go back to school! I value every day and every pre-req class I had to take (suffer through 🙂 ) and I found that I jumped out of bed in the morning to get to work on my classes and pre-med activities. It was so hard to take the leap, but once I did, it was so clear it was right.

A few factoids to also keep in mind -
- many schools won't accept MCAT scores that are older than 3 years ( I think that is the length?)
- schools can see that you took the MCAT more than once. Many take the higher score, but a few will average the scores out.
- many schools pre-filter using simple numbers - your MCAT and your combined or your BCPM gpa. Your undergrad and your post-bacc will not be separated out, so if you did have some bumps in undergrad, you will need to take enough classes to really raise your gpa.
- like Efex said, schools want recent classes.
- You are still young. I am 33, applied for the first time this year and am thrilled and honored to be on my way to school! I was told by several different advisors that after 35, it does seem to become harder to get in to med school - but the rural health listserv editor noted that such stats may be due to the fact that many older students don't do as well on the MCAT, don't have enough advice and support while applying, and try to rush applying.
- During my interviews, several of the interviewers mentioned that they usually ask "non-traditional career-changers" how we know that medicine really is our true calling - what if it is just the current thing? However, at several different schools the interviewers went on to say that because of all the things I had done and the TIME I had taken in this process, they felt it was clear that this is, indeed, my calling. Forgive me for sounding boastful, I just really want to respond in detail to your posts. Normally, I hope I wouldn't go on about myself like this!

On that note, this is getting really long. I want you to know that I do really support you in making these choices and forging ahead - the points I have attempted to make are only to share some additional information with you. IMHO, your self reflection is in itself an important skill, and thus although I may not agree with your choices, I believe you will succeed!

Oh, he**, I just realized I also meant to respond re: health concerns. I mentioned mine (open heart surgery) very briefly in my app, as it did affect my undergrad, and because I did mention it, I also made a point of including a number of my athletic and outdoor pursuits as one part of the extracurriculars. I was advised to do that to show that I am healthy now. I did not want to focus on it. But, I am quite sure that it came up in some of my LORs, especially the ones from profs at my undergrad. I think that your situation allows you to empathize with patients and their families. One of the wonderful things about this process is that it really is a crucible for us to become the best selves we can be, combining and including all of our past experiences to become healers.

 

[MJB]

One quick question about EC's....and Volunteer things...

I am trying to get on with the local Relay for Life as a Volunteer to help them out, and am trying to fit in a bit with the church we go to to get more involved (I'm not Catholic, wife is, so I go with her, hard to fit in)...

As for "EC's", I haven't really done a bunch since I got out of school..coached little league football, played some softball, etc...but that's about it. Do you count things you did in undergrad? (Football and a job didn't really help the grades much).

I also plan to do such things as shadow, etc..and see about some job/volunteer opportunities in a hospital/nursing home/hospice type of place...any pointers on how to go about this? How hard is it to be a volunteer at blood drives and take blood?

Also, when folks say 'take your time', just exactly how long are we talking? My "best case" plan is 2 years...my realistic plan is 3 years.

I really do appreciate the input and advice...

My guess is I will study hard this summer (and hopefully be taking an online Med. Terminology class) and see how the practice exams go, then make a decision about 8/20/05 at that time.

As far as my undergrad went, it was only horrible when it came to Chem. II and I made the mistake of not dropping it when I knew I should have...Other than that, no horrid grades, but not GREAT grades either....

 

[Cheerfulgrrl]

One quick question about EC's....and Volunteer things...

I am trying to get on with the local Relay for Life as a Volunteer to help them out, and am trying to fit in a bit with the church we go to to get more involved (I'm not Catholic, wife is, so I go with her, hard to fit in)...

As for "EC's", I haven't really done a bunch since I got out of school..coached little league football, played some softball, etc...but that's about it. Do you count things you did in undergrad? (Football and a job didn't really help the grades much).

I also plan to do such things as shadow, etc..and see about some job/volunteer opportunities in a hospital/nursing home/hospice type of place...any pointers on how to go about this? How hard is it to be a volunteer at blood drives and take blood?

Also, when folks say 'take your time', just exactly how long are we talking? My "best case" plan is 2 years...my realistic plan is 3 years.

I really do appreciate the input and advice...

My guess is I will study hard this summer (and hopefully be taking an online Med. Terminology class) and see how the practice exams go, then make a decision about 8/20/05 at that time.

As far as my undergrad went, it was only horrible when it came to Chem. II and I made the mistake of not dropping it when I knew I should have...Other than that, no horrid grades, but not GREAT grades either....

I don't know the answer to some of your specific questions about EC's, but you definitely need some current ones. And, I do know that schools want to see a long-term committment to a group or issue, not just a menu of brief volunteer experiences. So, train to be a hospice volunteer now, then be one for the next few years. Volunteer with Relay for Life over the same time period, and advance in responsibility with the race and take on a leadership position on the race committee. That sort of long-term work and progression.

 

[Cheerfulgrrl]

I don't know the answer to some of your specific questions about EC's, but you definitely need some current ones. And, I do know that schools want to see a long-term committment to a group or issue, not just a menu of brief volunteer experiences. So, train to be a hospice volunteer now, then be one for the next few years. Volunteer with Relay for Life over the same time period, and advance in responsibility with the race and take on a leadership position on the race committee. That sort of long-term work and progression.

In keeping with my first (and far too long) post back to you, I also want to stress that whatever you do, choose to do it because you have a genuine interest in volunteering on that issue, and in the people with whom you work. Even though for us it will be something for our application, for Hospice clients, ER patients, low-income clinic visitors, soup kitchen users, etc. it is their life, and they deserve your genuine interest. And you deserve to look forward to going to volunteer!

 

[MJB]

Thank you for your sincere answers...

If there is one thing I am looking for out of these experiences it is that I want to do them as if I would do them even if I wasn't looking to go to med school...that's why I'm looking to get into RFL (something I care about deeply for obvious reasons), helping out with landscaping, etc. at church, and probably Habitat for Humanity...

I would have likely been involved more, but the community we moved to a few years ago is one that is VERY, VERY hard to fit into...it's a very clique-ish community.

I appreciate your help...and out of all this, in the end I will have hopefully helped people, which is the most important thing to me at this point...I truly enjoy helping people...especially on a personal level when given the opportunity.

 

[efex101]

Volunteering is very important to most medical schools...most will want quality versus quantity..meaning do one thing but do it for a long time and put your heart into it. I think that you have the right idea about where your passion is and go for that. Regarding the time..if you know that three years is the "realistic" time frame for you then shoot for that and not two. Three years will give you time to not only do some meaningful volunteering but also to explore the field before you jump in. Again, medicine is here for you so there is no need to really rush anything. I started medical school at the young age of 38 and I am almost done with my first year so do not worry so much about "how old" you will be but about how "competitive" you will be. This road is very long and at times it gets rough but it is very rewarding! Good luck and keep asking away!

 

[efex101]

BTW the EC's need to be more recent, although if you have been involved previously for some time with something specific and now do that again, you can certainly highlight that fact on your application. The bottom line for adcoms is "proof" of recent academic prowess, proof of recent altruism, proof that you can multitask and still excell academically (school/family/work/volunteering/shadowing/organizations), and proof that you can take standardized exams and do well. This will all point in the direction that yes you can handle the tremendous work load of medical school and pass the boards.

 

[MJB]

New question for the day.....

I have finally pulled my transcripts out of the archives and dusted them off....whew..

I have discovered that it's not the horrid grade in Chem II that's killing me...it's the mediocre grades I got in a bunch of BIO classes that I took that is hurting more than anything...

I'm sitting basically 3.0 after having a disastrous Soph. year of school...Even if I ace 16 hours of physics, Chem, and Organic, I'm looking at about a 3.15 Overall and below 3 in Health related sciences...(damn all that beer)

I'm starting to question whether Allopathic Med School is even a realistic goal.

To be honest, after my pretty good Frosh campaign (3.6)...I pretty much put no effort into school...Not sure what to do at this point...It still blows my mind that I'm so good at all the artsy fartsy crap.

 

[efex101]

Folks with lower GPA's have received acceptances to either allo or osteo schools. You will have to take some science classes and get A's (but you already knew this) and the MCAT will be important as well. Again, here is your chance to shine so do not rush and you will be fine.

 

[mamadoc]

well, two thoughts actually:

first, if you are coming to the realization that your likely timeframe is two to three years, be careful about your MCAT timing: scores generally need to be less than three years old at the time you matriculate, meaning you need to have taken the test no more than two years before you apply. This varies from school to school, but be aware of it.

More importantly, you've recognized that you are going to need to really solid grades in post-bacc work in order to put together a good application. I am sure that you are capable of this. But you are going to need to have those grades DONE by the time you submit applications, or your applications won't get the look they deserve. That's another argument for putting off the MCAT a little further.

Do you HAVE to quit work and go to school full-time? I did this for the second of my two post-bacc years, but continued working during the first year and took a part-time courseload. Of course I had a very flexible job and an understanding and supportive boss, which is key. But you seem to be going on the assumption that it's all-or-nothing, and there's no reason to believe that it is. In networking with non-trads over the years, I've heard of lots of ways to adjust schedules... no two were alike. Think creatively and see if you can come up with a way to get your feet wet back in school, prove to yourself that you've got the academic musclepower to do this, and then make your plans from there.

You sound genuinely and appropriately concerned about committing to a career path that may not eventually be right. But you really don't have to actually commit to it just yet if you're able to work out some sort of job accommodation and part-time school schedule - I definitely recommend exploring this as it can give you a lot of peace of mind.

Good luck!

 

[MJB]

I'm about 99% sure I won't be able to take the classes needed without finding a different job...or going to nights at my current job, which means going from management to Union...and they wouldn't even consider that..

I'm still thinking through all of this.

There is ONE place that it appears I can take classes in the evening, but it's about a 1.5 hour drive and class starts at 5...

 

[MJB]

Would working full time as what equates to being a CNA qualify as good clinical experience, or should it be on a volunteer basis?

 

[efex101]

That would do for clinical exposure *but* remember they are also looking for "volunteering" to demonstrate altruism...this volunteering is done in any setting does not have to be clinical. Also fyi, the EC section has just "increased" in space for the new AMCAS available for 2006 entering class...meaning that now you *can* elaborate more on the specifics of your EC.

 

[MJB]

Thanks...I'm hoping to get started with the local Habitat for Humanity chapter soon, work with the church, and doing some stuff for Relay for Life.

Now, I've got a stupid question...

When you go to fill out these applications..I will assume it's best to type them...

How hard is it to scan them into your computer and fill them out on a computer...smart as I am, I'm inept at running a typewriter... 😕

 

[BMW19]

The applications are online nowadays. You don't need a typewriter (in fact you should never need a typewriter again in this lifetime!) Donate it to a museum and start filling out the app. online.

I agree with the above posters about not giving up your job in a good career until you are sure about your chances. I have heard too many stories of people that give up everything (including spouses) to go for medicine. The application process is arbitrary at best and it requires a certain amount of luck in addition to grades, MCAT, volunteering etc. See if you can do an accelerated Orgo program during the summer. I did orgo 1 and 2 in 2 months during a summer at a small private school.

BMW-

Thanks...I'm hoping to get started with the local Habitat for Humanity chapter soon, work with the church, and doing some stuff for Relay for Life.

Now, I've got a stupid question...

When you go to fill out these applications..I will assume it's best to type them...

How hard is it to scan them into your computer and fill them out on a computer...smart as I am, I'm inept at running a typewriter... 😕

 

[MJB]

Good to hear about the applications..I was getting confused, in thinking that they would need to be typed (particularly secondaries)...

As for classes...I'm enrolling in an online course this summer in Medical Terminology (just to get in a groove and help the GPA a fraction of a point, hopefully)...but last night I mentioned to my boss, over beers, the possibility of me taking Chem next fall..and he pretty much ignored it...no, he did ignore it...so I think this is going to become an all or nothing deal.

 

[QofQuimica]

I think the big thing you need to decide now is whether you even really want to do this. You already know what you need to do to prepare to apply to medical school: start shadowing and volunteering, take all of the pre-requisites, take the MCAT, and then apply, IN THAT ORDER. It will probably take you two or even three years to complete this whole process, and you don't think that you can do it while at your current job. Well, then you have a decision to make: you can either change jobs to another that will accomodate your class schedule, quit working altogether and go into debt so that you can finish the pre-reqs faster, or continue on in your current job and not attend medical school. No one here can tell you what you should do. You are the only person who knows what is truly in your own heart. If keeping your current job matters the most to you, then that ought to tell you something about the strength of your desire for medical school. And there's nothing wrong with changing your mind and deciding not to go after all. But if you do truly want to go, then you are going to have to make some major changes and sacrifices to get there. So you have to decide, are you in or are you out? And then be happy with your decision and stop second-guessing yourself. If you're comfortable with your decision, then it was the right one for you, even if it's not the one that someone else would have made.

 

[MJB]

Working on it.

Quitting the current job is not an option until at least December. I'm ready to start now, and I'm looking for ways to do that. Yes, I want to do this, however, I have responsibilities to uphold as well.

I don't think I've asked for anyone to make a decision for me (it's already been made)...I'm just looking for input on how to get there, and what others have experienced...I would have loved to have been able to spend the last 7 years preparing for med school in a job I enjoyed while taking classes at night, but that's just not how it has worked out.

The good news is (for me) that it looks like I will be able to take a course this summer, and probably Chem II this fall. From there, who knows.

Have I given the impression that I don't want to do it?

(I would quit this job in a heartbeat if I was in a position to do so.)

 

[Cheerfulgrrl]

Working on it.

Quitting the current job is not an option until at least December. I'm ready to start now, and I'm looking for ways to do that. Yes, I want to do this, however, I have responsibilities to uphold as well.

I don't think I've asked for anyone to make a decision for me (it's already been made)...I'm just looking for input on how to get there, and what others have experienced...I would have loved to have been able to spend the last 7 years preparing for med school in a job I enjoyed while taking classes at night, but that's just not how it has worked out.

The good news is (for me) that it looks like I will be able to take a course this summer, and probably Chem II this fall. From there, who knows.

Have I given the impression that I don't want to do it?

(I would quit this job in a heartbeat if I was in a position to do so.)

I think you just seem to be extremely ruminative, which does not mean you are not committed to medicine, but b/c we only see your concerns - which is appropriate for a forum wherein you are asking for advice - and your tone is generally one of thinking about things, etc., it is not as clear that the "decision was already made." I can tell you from my own experience that you can spend a very long time thinking about how to make this happen in the "best" way - and in fact, it is best to just get started.

Yet, I should also note that I don't have many more suggestions to offer to you, if you really don't have other financial, professional, or academic options. For example, someone mentioned working part-time, is that an option? I certainly wish your boss was more supportive, but he/she is focused on the needs of your workplace, so I'm not surprised. When i needed my schedule to change, early in this process, (a bit like where you are), I coordinated a job-share with a co-worker who was a new mom, and we jointly presented a detailed plan to our boss. I know, though, that I was VERY lucky that it worked that way. The point is to think of it from the bosses point of view, look at all the HR issues, and present a typed-up plan that might work for you both.

Alternatively, if you think you can quit at the end of the year, can you put the class idea on hold, and work lots of OT to give yourself more financial options then?

You have mentioned other responsibilities, and I don't remember from the OP, do you have family? Because I can certainly understand that when one has a family, there are many more - and more important - factors to consider then just what you want.

Why medical terminology? I understand about wanting to transition back into taking classes, but if you have time for that wouldn't you have time for a pre-req class? Instead? Although it might give you time to get used to being in school again, I don't think success in med term proves that you will succeed in the core classes, and I think that if you know how you need to study and plan for the time properly, it makes more sense to get started. One mistake that non-trads make is to spread themselves too thin, especially to underestimate the time that a class (be it med term or chem) requires.

I'm sort of a loss here - I log on to the non-trad forum in an effort to give back - and I definitely want to be supportive of you and the choices you need to make. However, I think all of the other posters here have given you a blue print to start with, so at this point I would just do that - start, but don't rush. You have time.

Best wishes!



i

 

[efex101]

I also questioned the medical terminology class...there is really no true "value" for this class aside from getting registered and started. I think that a better option would be any biology/chem/math class to prove your academic prowess to adcoms...which is really the bottom line of "can you hack it in medical school".

 

[MJB]

I am currently supporting my wife and myself while she finishes Nursing School, and we need every penny that I earn, so that's why my options are more limited now.

Med. Terminology is an online course that I won't have to miss work time in order to take, and I want to take it to learn it and to get myself back into school in some way. I would LOVE to take Chemistry, but my work doesn't think too much of me being gone for 3-5 hours a day, 4 days a week this summer.

I have found a Chem. II class that I MIGHT be able to take this fall...have to see.

I'm meeting with a pre-med adviser at the local school tomorrow to go over some things.

The idea of taking the MCAT this August correlates with my wife being extremely busy and me being extremely bored...so I have time to study.

I'm already looking at the possibility of working a full time night job starting next spring so that I can go back to school full time. The pre-reqs at the schools withing 1.5 hours of my location are held during the day about 98% of the time, including JuCo's..

Believe me, if I could just start taking the Pre-req's this summer and keep my full time job, I would...mostly because I think I could get the company to pay for the classes.

The biggest problem is that while I have very little problem with "giving up" what I have (which is a very good job with one of the best Pharma companies in the world to work for), my wife is not wanting me to go into it unless there are guaranteed results (that I will get into med school) because she knows I can work here for another 15-17 years and retire at 45 if I wanted to...or, I can be a practicing physician by age 40-41 (if I'm lucky enough to get in on the first try)...So, do I have concerns? You bet...and I've made decisions on a whim before and that didn't work too well for me.

I'm trying to formulate a plan and go with it. Hopefully after tomorrow, I'll have a better idea of what that plan is.

Ideally, my boss becomes MUCH more receptive to me taking classes and I can use PTO to attend classes. That way, I would get what I need while the company pays for it, and we make enough money to get some sort of savings accumulated before I went into med school.

What will likely happen is I'll have to go to work as a CNA, working nights, and go back to school....and if I don't get into Med school I will have given up a very good job, put myself into more debt and delayed retirement savings for another 3-4 years...and be looking for work...I'm a bit concerned, but confident that if I can get a solid strategy put together, I'll be a Doc in the next 7-8 years...and never be so glad I got out of my current profession and took the risk!...

The title "where to start" is truly where I'm at right now...I'm ready to go, but with very limited options of how to tackle this monster of going back and getting into Med School....I cannot wait to get started.

What I've learned...

Take all pre-reqs before MCAT
Take MCAT only once (not sure if this is for my own good mentally or because it looks better to adcoms)
Just do it.

I appreciate what I've learned here, and will post back what I learn tomorrow!

 

[Law2Doc]

Take MCAT only once (not sure if this is for my own good mentally or because it looks better to adcoms)

Both.

 

[efex101]

Okay I see the relevance of the medical terminology class..this will get your feet wet so to speak and you still can keep your job makes sense. You know, you could start with the "soft" components of the application process like volunteering (which you did mention in prior post) and/or shadowing a clinician or even volunteering in a clinic to get exposure to the day to day practice of medicine. You can also start making contact with the pre-med advisor at X or Y school and although you are *not* yet taking classes by keeping in touch with him/her every now and then will build a solid relationship that may prove beneficial down the line for LOR once you start taking classes. Another option if you have no children or they go with grandma for the summer 😉 is to maybe do some research during the summer. I am not sure if your schedule would permit but often it is very easy to find a project that interests you and help out now and then. All you can do is ask right? you never know...

 

[MJB]

I'm planning to meet with the pre-med adviser tomorrow over lunch and I'm working on getting my shadowing set up...I have 3 docs I plan to contact right now...An IM that is FP...a DO, and a General Surgeon. I'm pretty sure the IM will let me spend lots of time with him (he suggested I just take a week off this summer and go with him), and I think the other 2 will at least let me shadow a bit...I'm not sure how much the surgeon can let me do.

Working on getting set up with the Relay for Life (looks like I'm in charge of food this year)....

Now, I might see about coaching some little league football, as that's something I would like to do anyway...

I may ask about the research tomorrow....but I'm kind of reluctant to get into research unless it is something that really interests me. I'm sure that's not good, but I also don't want to do something that I'm not "into"...I already have a job for that! 🙂

I'm trying to figure out how to go about looking for volunteer opportunities at the hospital....wondering if that's something you have to go through HR for or not.

 

[Cheerfulgrrl]

I'm planning to meet with the pre-med adviser tomorrow over lunch and I'm working on getting my shadowing set up...I have 3 docs I plan to contact right now...An IM that is FP...a DO, and a General Surgeon. I'm pretty sure the IM will let me spend lots of time with him (he suggested I just take a week off this summer and go with him), and I think the other 2 will at least let me shadow a bit...I'm not sure how much the surgeon can let me do.

Working on getting set up with the Relay for Life (looks like I'm in charge of food this year)....

Now, I might see about coaching some little league football, as that's something I would like to do anyway...

I may ask about the research tomorrow....but I'm kind of reluctant to get into research unless it is something that really interests me. I'm sure that's not good, but I also don't want to do something that I'm not "into"...I already have a job for that! 🙂

I'm trying to figure out how to go about looking for volunteer opportunities at the hospital....wondering if that's something you have to go through HR for or not.

Just call the hospital main switchboard and ask them about volunteering - they will probably transfer you to a volunteer coordinator, unless the hospital is too small. Regardless, they probably have some designated person who handles volunteers. (And if they don't have a volunteer program, gee, what a great way for you to take on a leadership role in your community by starting such a program!) A good volunteer coordinator will interview you about your goals, time available, etc. and will probably require you to fill out a volunteer application and undergo some, perhaps just paper, training on issues such as confidentiality, etc. Then they should place you in a position that fits you and the needs of the hospital. If they don't have something available that you like, but it seems like they have a good volunteer program, I would encourage you to ask about changing positions in the future, and go ahead and get started. A good volunteer program and coordinator can be an excellent asset for LORs, references for more advanced types of volunteer work in the community, and even emotional support as you go through the application process.

 

[MJB]

Thanks for the hints Cheerful....

Now that I think about it, one of my wife's uncles just started in HR not too long ago at the local Regional Health center, so I will try giving him a call....

I'm noticing the job I want at the hospital requires a CNA certificate...not sure what that entails, but I doubt it's worth my time if I can get volunteer experiences...

 

[efex101]

You really do not have to "work" in the healthcare field unless you want to of course, the volunteering here and there should suffice to give you a an honest to God look at what medicine may entail. Good luck! seems that you are moving along with your goals..just remember at times it will seem that you are moving at the speed of molasses but you will get to the goal before you know it! and then you will be wondering were time went..

 

[QofQuimica]

I'm sorry if I sounded harsh in my last post, MJB. I guess I feel like Cheerfulgrrl; I can't think of too many other suggestions to make, and last time I checked, you were STILL talking about taking the MCAT this summer even though the consensus is pretty much that it is a horrible idea! But I'm glad that you are committed to going to med school, and I'm also glad that you are going to take the pre-reqs first before you take the MCAT. 😉

I do have one more idea, actually, that I don't think anyone has mentioned yet. Do you have a Kaplan or TPR center near you? If so, you can take a free, proctored practice test with them, just to see how you'd do. I'll warn you that if you do this, the company will of course try to persuade you to sign up for a course! But at least it would give you a completely free way to try your hand at taking the MCAT, and if you bomb it, no one else ever has to know.

I've been thinking about the money issue, too, and maybe getting a part-time job for the summer is a good plan for you. I mean, you're bored anyway, you need every penny you earn as it is, and applying to med school is expensive. So if you could save a few thousand dollars and not have to borrow money to apply or take the MCAT over the next few years, you'd really be in good shape. What do you think about opening a savings account or money market, taking the part-time job, and saving everything you earn from it this summer to build up your pre-med fund?

 

[MJB]

I met with the pre-med adviser at the local university for about 1.5 hours today, and we're getting close to a plan....and even though I stated that my goal was to matriculate in '08, he seems to be pushing for trying to matriculate in '07...which surprised me...He has encouraged me to study for the MCAT, but wait until I've at least taken Organic I to take it...which makes sense to me...

There is an outside shot that I could take Chem II this fall, which would allow me to take Org. I and Phys. II next spring, then have the summer to possibly take Org. II or BioChem and prepare for the MCAT (he suggests studying hard for it this summer as originally planned to cut down on "cramming" the last few months)

He seems to have a very good relationship with KCUMB (he set up a program that allows undergrads some sort of preferred admission there apparently), and seems to be hinting at me being able to possibly matriculate there in '07 if I can follow his plan...but I'm still kind of wondering about that...thinking it would be best to have ALL my coursework complete before even applying, especially considering if I didn't take my MCAT until 8/06, then I would be getting scores in "late"...but he also mentioned that can "sometimes" be a good thing at KCUMB...who knows...but this seems like a very good person to work with.

That job idea is actually something to think about...and I'm looking into it.

Also thinking about selling my season football tix and giving up my bball season tickets...as those are rather pricey! 🙂

Edit: One discovery I have just made is that my Physics course I took at undergrad was an "Intro" course that was algebra based rather than the "General" class based in Calculus...I'm not sure why, as I had the Calc pre-requisite, and the Intro class was an accepted course for science majors...I'm starting to question if they have added the "General" series for Physics majors since I graduated due to more profs....I know they have added many more Bio Courses since then after adding more Bio Profs...I just wish they would have had them when I was there. I really hope this Physics course will not have to be re-taken, but I guess I will have to ask around to some schools and see what's up.

Oh, and to answer your question about Kaplan/TPR, there are centers, but they are both about 1 hour or a little more away from my house...I have ordered some Kaplan review materials and practice tests, and I'm taking advantage of the free practice test available at www.e-mcat.com...though I understand that one is considered "very easy"?

 

[MJB]

First class down! That was interesting...my first summer course ever...and first online course ever....

Now, just waiting to hear from the boss if I will be allowed to take Chem II this fall...If he doesn't let me (there will be a little bit of work time missed), things are gonna get interesting.

Got all trained and ready to go to be a Volunteer as an "Angel of the ER" this week....and shadowing all of next week...can't wait to see what those two experiences will be like.

Really hope that I can take Chem. II this fall...that would help the schedule of classes immensely.

 

[MJB]

Went to my first day of Chem. II today...Really looking forward to getting this out of the way.

Next roadblock is that Org. I next semester is 11-11:50 three days a week and I would have to take TWO afternoons off per week for lab...

One was pushing it...I don't think they'll go for 2 days of lab.

 

[MJB]

Well, so far, so good...I've missed a total of like 2.5 points in lab and lecture of Chem. II....and aced my first test, so I was happy...

Just so anxious to move on with life...2 months until my wife's graduation, and probably at least 6 more months of hating life at work....

School is like a vacation at this point!