Honor amoung thieves?

[3dtp]

How many have heard a program director tell/promise you something prior to the match and when you came in to collect on the deal, you are asked the question, "Do you have it in writing?" as an excuse not to honor their word.

My thoughts: If your word is worthless, then why should I bother with writing, except to prove the lie? You are powerless to enforce the deal anyway.

Or as Darth Vader said, "I am changing the agreement. Pray I do not change it further."

 

[mlw03]

i'm not sure i see your point. it's been stated numerous times that pre-match 'promises' and $2 will get you a cup of coffee. if a PD tells you they love you more than life itself take it as a nice compliment, but to count on it as a match is just poor decision-making. but perhaps i'm missing the point of the post.

 

[i61164]

The funny thing to do would be call them on it. So when the PD says that you are their number one choice, say "can I get that in writing?"

Or you could just lay it on real thick in all your interviews and tell every program that you are going to rank them number one. Then you could send them all letters after the match explaining that even though you said that you were going to rank them number one, you never made that statement "in writing."

 

[Faebinder]

i'm not sure i see your point. it's been stated numerous times that pre-match 'promises' and $2 will get you a cup of coffee. if a PD tells you they love you more than life itself take it as a nice compliment, but to count on it as a match is just poor decision-making. but perhaps i'm missing the point of the post.

well said...👍

You're number ONE as long as no one else comes to them and replaces you.

 

[3dtp]

well said...👍

You're number ONE as long as no one else comes to them and replaces you.

Nothing to do with matching or interviews or Rankings. After you match, the "recruitment" promises made, vanish.

EG: if you are matched here, we promise to give you x time for meetings, book funds, interviewing, etc.

You match at your first choice program.

Two years later you turn in your textbook receipts, get a couple abstracts accepted for presentation and put a request for time off and the reply is, "do you have it in writing? Use your vacation time."

...but you promised....

I understand that they won't negotiate things like salary, working conditions, and the like, but they did make offers of special arrangements to attract high quality candidates (including offers outside the match which were declined). And this is in a very competitive field.

My point: if you're not going to keep your word, why make promises that you can't or won't keep?

 

[NotAProgDirector]

As a Program Director, I can only say that I am horrified that any program would behave in such a manner. Obviously, programs change over time and a statement made prior to match (i.e. "Drug reps supply lunch every day to noon conference") might become void due to a change in policy (i.e. the institution bans all drug reps). The examples you give, however, are unacceptable -- if a program states that they have paid time off for meetings, interviews, books, etc, then they should be held to that standard. Personally, I think that these types of things should be applied to all residents in the program or none, to avoid the appearance of favoritism, but that is clearly an arguable point both ways.

What can you do about this? Honestly, not much. Some ideas:

1. You can discuss this with your PD, and hopefully get them to agree to honor it. You should also check your contract, and GME's policies -- perhaps you can find something in writing to help. Sounds like you've done this already, but it's clearly the first place to start.

2. You can talk to the GME director (also called the "DIO") informally. This is the person who is the director of all the program directors. In a big institution, they have a significant amount of influence and can be your advocate. Hopefully they can do so in a quiet, behind the scenes way.

3. You can file a grievance with the GME office. All programs are required to have a grievance process to address conflicts, usually around the termination or non-promotion of a resident. The actual process is variable, but it should be in your housestaff manual.

4. Failing the above, you can report it to the ACGME. It's deceptive and unethical behavior. Sadly, it doesn't violate any of the 40+ pages of rules programs have to follow, so I don't know that the ACGME can do anything about it.

Anything beyond #2 is certain to cause fricition between you and your PD, and you'll have to decide how important this is to pursue.

There are always two sides to every story, and I'm sure the person who promised this remembers things differently. Assuming your retelling of the situation is accurate, I am truly disappointed by my colleague, and you have my support. I would hope that the "Theives" are a small minority in the universe of program directors.

 

[LADoc00]

You do realize aProgDirector that your avatar is a Sith....highly suspicious if I do say so.

The dark side is seductive.

 

[Faebinder]

You do realize aProgDirector that your avatar is a Sith....highly suspicious if I do say so.

The dark side is seductive.

I thought we went through this in another thread...

All Program Directors are well known Sith Lords....

The program director would be the master and the assistant program director would be the apprentice. Yoda made it very clear, always 2 (recently there has been report of a third sith lord "associate program director" but such positions seem to be rare and temporary...)

 

[3dtp]

As a Program Director, I can only say that I am horrified that any program would behave in such a manner. Obviously, programs change over time and a statement made prior to match (i.e. "Drug reps supply lunch every day to noon conference") might become void due to a change in policy (i.e. the institution bans all drug reps). The examples you give, however, are unacceptable -- if a program states that they have paid time off for meetings, interviews, books, etc, then they should be held to that standard. Personally, I think that these types of things should be applied to all residents in the program or none, to avoid the appearance of favoritism, but that is clearly an arguable point both ways.

What can you do about this? Honestly, not much. Some ideas:

1. You can discuss this with your PD, and hopefully get them to agree to honor it. You should also check your contract, and GME's policies -- perhaps you can find something in writing to help. Sounds like you've done this already, but it's clearly the first place to start.

2. You can talk to the GME director (also called the "DIO") informally. This is the person who is the director of all the program directors. In a big institution, they have a significant amount of influence and can be your advocate. Hopefully they can do so in a quiet, behind the scenes way.

3. You can file a grievance with the GME office. All programs are required to have a grievance process to address conflicts, usually around the termination or non-promotion of a resident. The actual process is variable, but it should be in your housestaff manual.

4. Failing the above, you can report it to the ACGME. It's deceptive and unethical behavior. Sadly, it doesn't violate any of the 40+ pages of rules programs have to follow, so I don't know that the ACGME can do anything about it.

Anything beyond #2 is certain to cause fricition between you and your PD, and you'll have to decide how important this is to pursue.

There are always two sides to every story, and I'm sure the person who promised this remembers things differently. Assuming your retelling of the situation is accurate, I am truly disappointed by my colleague, and you have my support. I would hope that the "Theives" are a small minority in the universe of program directors.

. . . and watch the slow and excruciatingly painful death of my career! I think in the grand scheme of things, me being in my final year and all, it's best to let sleeping dogs lay.

It just burns me when people who have clearly acknowledged commitments for 3 years suddenly have "forgotten" agreements when it becomes inconvenient and then spring the excuse: Well, you don't have it in writing. If your word is no good, it's no good on paper any more than it is spoken.

I agree that the theives are out there are few, but they do exist. Nuff said, night all.

 

[mlw03]

Thanks for clearing up the intent of the post. What you said would be incredibly frustrating, but as discussed, I don't know what you could do now that wouldn't seriously piss off your boss. One thing you could do would be to pull interviewees aside and let them know of your experience. Think of it as good karma, Earl style. And then when you do leave the program after completion, you could state in a very professional manner your disappointment, and then drop that you've been warning applicants of said deceptive practices for X years. that would definately piss the PD off, there'd be no recourse on their part, and it would be justified, as applicants have the right to know if a program will be true to the promises made during the recruitment process. what do ya'll think?

 

[3dtp]

Thanks for clearing up the intent of the post. What you said would be incredibly frustrating, but as discussed, I don't know what you could do now that wouldn't seriously piss off your boss. One thing you could do would be to pull interviewees aside and let them know of your experience. Think of it as good karma, Earl style. And then when you do leave the program after completion, you could state in a very professional manner your disappointment, and then drop that you've been warning applicants of said deceptive practices for X years. that would definately piss the PD off, there'd be no recourse on their part, and it would be justified, as applicants have the right to know if a program will be true to the promises made during the recruitment process. what do ya'll think?

Would that it were that easy. You'll need their letters for credentials. And a leopard doesn't change its spots. My way: they're recruiting me to stay on. Guess what boys?

The other thought I had was there's a lot of stuff they want us to do that our contracts don't require that we do to make their lives easier. Work to rule? But then, that would cause friction too. Moral: When the 800 pound gorilla has your balls in its teeth, you smile, do what the gorilla says until the gorilla lets go. Then you reach for the scattergun.

 

[Faebinder]

Would that it were that easy. You'll need their letters for credentials. And a leopard doesn't change its spots. My way: they're recruiting me to stay on. Guess what boys?

The other thought I had was there's a lot of stuff they want us to do that our contracts don't require that we do to make their lives easier. Work to rule? But then, that would cause friction too. Moral: When the 800 pound gorilla has your balls in its teeth, you smile, do what the gorilla says until the gorilla lets go. Then you reach for the scattergun.

👍 just remember though... life is unfair.. there no need to just blame the program director all the time.... maybe they did really try? But I guess we are speaking of program directors that never even tried.

*evil thoughts running through my head here*... I can imagine in the future ERAS having option selection boxes in the application to the different programs.

Check box one --- Willing to not ask for 5 dollar lunch tickets.

Check box two --- Willing to forgo medical insurance for kids and dental.

Check box three --- Willing to forgo 1 week of vacation (make that 3 check boxes, one for each week you are willing to sacrifice).

 

[mlw03]

Would that it were that easy. You'll need their letters for credentials. And a leopard doesn't change its spots. My way: they're recruiting me to stay on. Guess what boys?

The other thought I had was there's a lot of stuff they want us to do that our contracts don't require that we do to make their lives easier. Work to rule? But then, that would cause friction too. Moral: When the 800 pound gorilla has your balls in its teeth, you smile, do what the gorilla says until the gorilla lets go. Then you reach for the scattergun.

you could still pull applicants aside and share you experiences with them. you just wouldn't be able to tell the PD about it, which would be less satisfying personally. but at least you'd know you'd warned potential applicants that that kind of stuff occurs at your program.

well-said though on the moral - i feel similarly as an MS3 now when having to deal with putz attendings every now and then.

 

[cdql]

Moral of the story = get everything in writing

(and wear wiretaps to all your interviews 🙂 )

 

[glorytaker]

I thought we went through this in another thread...

All Program Directors are well known Sith Lords....

The program director would be the master and the assistant program director would be the apprentice. Yoda made it very clear, always 2 (recently there has been report of a third sith lord "associate program director" but such positions seem to be rare and temporary...)

Like Yoda also said, lying, cheating and deceit- those are the ways of the Dark Side. 🙂

 

[3dtp]

Moral of the story = get everything in writing

(and wear wiretaps to all your interviews 🙂 )

Why waste trees? Even if it is in writing you can't enforce it. Writing on paper is only as good as the word of the man putting it there.

 

[cdql]

Why waste trees? Even if it is in writing you can't enforce it. Writing on paper is only as good as the word of the man putting it there.

True. But if I have the PD's word and signature on a sheet of paper, I can now go to court and sue for breach of contract. Depending on how much I extract from this dishonorable thief of a PD, I may not even need to work anymore 😎

 

[EctopicFetus]

If the PDs are such turds do you want to end up at a place like that? FWIW my PD totally rocks and cutting out vacation time? No freakin way.. we get 4 weeks! SWEETNESS!