Horror and tragedy when the government steps into your practice

[gryffindor]

This is currently being discussed on Dentaltown, but I thought it should be brought up on here too so more of us know what is going on.

Here is the website one of the Dentaltown members set up with the entire story in an effort to get Dr. Shelburne's story out there.

http://www.MedicaidRuinsGoodDentist.com/

Dr. Roy Shelburne is a dentist in Virginia currently awaiting sentencing for Medicaid fraud. It is truly saddening to read his story. Dr. Shelburne has 3 children, and his son is going to graduate from VCU Dental School this year. Below is part of what his son wrote that gives details to the story (it is on the website):

I guess the easiest way to state this is just to lay it out: My father, Roy S. Shelburne DDS (VCU class of '81), was just tried and convicted of 10 charges ranging from from healthcare fraud, wire fraud (in this case, filing insurance claims electronically), racketeering, money laundering, etc. The maximum sentence would call for 120 years in federal prison and his license to practice dentistry was immediately void upon reading of the verdict. He is the first dentist and (I've been told) only the second healthcare provider convicted of RICO.

The total amount of healthcare fraud (if you believe the prosecution's "expert" witness) was around $8,000 over the course of almost 5 years. Let me repeat that, a jury believed my father plotted and schemed to defraud Medicaid for $8,000 over 5 years...a period where his practice had production numbers well over two million dollars. They also believed that over those 5 years my father also knowingly withheld overpayments by Medicaid, who in some cases neglected to reference the amount paid by the patient's primary insurance carrier, resulting in a benefit for a procedure being dispersed twice. The total of those overpayments, over 5 years, was around $4500, again out of over two million $. Both were (by the prosecution's own admission) based on circumstantial evidence. The forms you submit to Medicaid to tell them to recoup the overpayment are commonly destroyed by Medicaid ~10 days after processing. My father had an employee that was in charge of finance issues such as filing claims to private insurance and Medicaid, keeping track of payments, and sending forms for the return of funds to Medicaid. There were copies of some of the forms used to inform Medicaid of overpayment involving procedures cited in the indictment in the handwriting of that employee. Forms for all of the acts cited were not available, but despite a complete lack of hard/objective evidence to support the prosecution's claim of intentional overbilling, the jury found him guilty. I still can't believe that with nothing but circumstantial evidence they were beyond a reasonable doubt. A jury of 12 dentists would have had a good laugh and acquitted him in 30 seconds. The wire fraud refers to a error on a electronically submitted Medicaid claim.

.....

The government probably spent over a million dollars over 5 years investigating and trying my father over less than $10,000.

I have learned a couple things from this ordeal:
-You're not entitled to anything, even your own hard work (according to the government).

-If you don't want to lose everything and go to jail over less than $10,000 in coding mistakes make sure your assistant, hygienist, or whoever writes the note including EVERYTHING. (Speaking of which, an assistant described a lesion on a tooth as a freckle and the prosecution tried to prove that was not an indication for treatment).

-And finally, despite what common sense would tell you, the law is written in such a way that a "pattern" of two instances out of 100,000 claims for a total of $6 dollars overpayment can be money laundering if you ever spend a cent out of that account for something as innocuous as office supplies.

There's a lot more to the story, and I might be a little bias but: Anyone that has met my father and anyone that knows anything about dentistry when hearing the full story would know my father is innocent and doesn't deserve what he's been put through.

Please read his story and let your friends and colleagues know. This is terrible and could happen to any of us if you sign up to be reimbursed by any government plan when you graduate. To think we worked so hard to get to dental school and then struggle and strive to have a successful business to provide a good life for our families - and to have it all taken away because the government decides to go wacko with its entitlement programs.

---

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[dentwannabe]

Wow, this is terrible. From the information I've read off the website, it doesn't seem fair, although I'll admit I don't know the FULL story. Judging by the son's description of the case and the arguments the prosecution was having, it seems ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS.

We need a SERIOUS reform of the whole medicaid system. Because in the end, innocent dentists and poor patients who can't afford care SUFFER.

 

[gryffindor]

Here is the thread on Dentaltown started by Dr. Shelburne. He has commented on a lot regarding his situation over there:

http://www.towniecentral.com/MessageBoard/thread.aspx?s=2&f=104&t=109476&v=1

 

[Vicarbo]

Please Digg this story to support Dr. Shelburne. Here's the link:

http://digg.com/business_finance/Unbelievable_Medicaid_Investigation_Ruins_Good_Dentist

If you don't have an account, you can easily create one. Digg is a website where anyone can vote on news stories and if the stories get popular, they will be on the front page and thousands of viewers will see it. If it makes the front page, it will be more likely to be picked up by the news media -CNN, Fox News, etc.

Thanks,
Richard

 

[Squished Rat]

This is the worst thing I have ever read happening to a dentist. I feel so bad for him.

 

[dreaming2k5]

When I first read the letter, I thought to myself, " aw, what a poor guy... targeted by the gov and screwed over by the people he worked so hard over." But after a while, I realized something -- if he was such a good dentist who served the community by taking medicaid, why didn't he have more testimonies by his patients attesting to his innocence and golden moral standards? Really, to be targeted initially, there has to be some kind of suspicion by the feds. Why would people suspect him if he never did anything wrong? If his standards were great and he treated everyone nice, why would his own employees turn against him? I started to think this is a case of "EVIL DENTIST" - kind of like the ones who enjoy fondling on women's breast and call it TMJ testing. So I went to read the "other side" of the story.

I did a quick search, and found this article on the Pennington Gap Dentist Let me just quote some interesting tidbit that the letter to the fellow doc didn't mention ~

...executed a scheme to maximize his practice’s income by overbilling insurance carriers and Medicaid for services that were never performed..

...Shelburne directed his employees to bill patients for services that were never performed or that were unnecessary...

... in some cases, Shelburne would submit bills for services that were incomplete or medically unnecessary....

... According to the evidence presented at trial, Shelburne submitted at least 115 false billing statements by mail. The defendant took part of the fraudulently obtained funds and transferred them into a retirement account in Illinois...

... took his family on cruises that were deducted on his books as board expenses...

... In addition, he put his three children on the company payroll when, according to his employees, they provided no services. The salaries paid to the children were deducted as business expenses....

Yeah, like he is such a squeaky clean dentist. The man deserve to be burned at the stakes! Sure, he stated in his letter that

We did make errors. Everything we did was not perfect. I admit to you now and admitted to the court that I made mistakes and my staff made errors.

But his errors were intentional! He intentionally told his staff to upcode and bill them for services not rendered. Though he didn't abuse his patients, he sure didn't deny to "making" error.

I'd end my post with this -- A lot of what he did may be "common practice," but just because other dentists get away with it, doesn't make what he did right.

 

[Cold Front]

I concur with dreamingking2k5, the OP provided only half of the story. The full details of the case made me think twice about the doctor's statement, he left out the real reason of the charges brought against him. I highly doubt the government conveniently goes after a dentist without considering the impact it will have on the community once the dentist is removed.

It sounds like this has been a long process, and an ongoing investigation that gave the government no choice but to apply the full extent of the law on this case. I agree, medicaid has a lot of traps that can throw a dentist into a jail without the intentions to commit fraud, but this guy went beyond the rules, he violated state and federal laws.

People sometimes feel they can slip under the system.

 

[TempleDMDKrazd]

I concur with dreamingking2k5, the OP provided only half of the story. The full details of the case made me think twice about the doctor's statement, he left out the real reason of the charges brought against him. I highly doubt the government conveniently goes after a dentist without considering the impact it will have on the community once the dentist is removed.

It sounds like this has been a long process, and an ongoing investigation that gave the government no choice but to apply the full extent of the law on this case. I agree, medicaid has a lot of traps that can throw a dentist into a jail without the intentions to commit fraud, but this guy went beyond the rules, he violated state and federal laws.

People sometimes feel they can slip under the system.

also, try reading the dentaltown thread on this subject. it seems like a fair share of the dentists on there actually got audited and fined by the gov't (the offices that accepted medicaid)...

 

[gryffindor]

dreaming2k5, I don't know Dr. Shelburne personally, but I learned a lot from reading the thread on Dentaltown. I did not know this, but apparently if you are accepting medicaid and have a disgruntled employee in your office, he/she can anonymously turn you in as "commiting medicaid fraud" and get the government on your back quickly. If fraud is found, the whistleblower gets to remain anonymous and collects a hefty sum 😱. Other dentists have commented that once the government audit starts, they start scrutinizing everything including errors your staff may have made (unintentional or not) in submitting claims (like miscoding a BW as a PA radiograph, or recording the wrong tooth number). Many many dentists talk about how atrocious it is to try and collect reimbursement from Medicaid, and how it is not worth the paperwork and effort. BTW, once you graduate you will realize that retirement accounts can be in any state. I have heard dental practice management lectures advocate as a small business owner to put your kids on the payroll for vacuuming the office and licking envelopes as well as attending a dental meeting in a distant location to combine business and vacation in one trip, so I don't know that he was acting out of line when doing those things.

Edit: I am going to add this - When I read his son's letter saying that this case boiled down to be about $8000 in overpayment over the period of 5 years, I thought about how I have read on Dentaltown about plenty of stories where insurance companies do an audit and realize they overpaid you by $200 for a procedure you did 5 years ago and send you a letter demanding their money back. It's not as easy as drill, fill, and bill when we have a nation of people clamoring to get out of paying for any healthcare service possible.

 

[TucsonDDS]

I concur with dreamingking2k5, the OP provided only half of the story. The full details of the case made me think twice about the doctor's statement, he left out the real reason of the charges brought against him. I highly doubt the government conveniently goes after a dentist without considering the impact it will have on the community once the dentist is removed.

It sounds like this has been a long process, and an ongoing investigation that gave the government no choice but to apply the full extent of the law on this case. I agree, medicaid has a lot of traps that can throw a dentist into a jail without the intentions to commit fraud, but this guy went beyond the rules, he violated state and federal laws.

People sometimes feel they can slip under the system.

WTF are you and the other guy talking about. It says that there was 8k in billing errors over a 5 year period on a practice that does about 50% medicaid. That is such a small percentage that you can't possible think it is to defraud the government. I am sure that the doc did make mistakes and he probably could have been a little more careful about his billing practices but from what it sounds like this is a simple mistake that has completely destroyed his career and his family. For you and the previous poster to say he deserves to be burned at the stake is completely uncalled for. I hope that this case does get some media attention and shows dentists what can happen when you get into bed with the devil. Now go back to and plan your career working in a medicaid mill hoping that you never accidentaly bill for a couple of PA's instead of BW's. Oh yeah, don't buy your kid a car or have a 500K mortgage either because if you do you are certainly defrauding someone.

 

[dreaming2k5]

Just because they only found $8000 doesn't mean that's the extent of it. Like the son said, Medicaid shred everything -- so there's no documentation except on the doc's side, and they could only find 8k. Whose to say the doc didn't adjust and shred questionable documents on his side to make it look tight?

So, let's go to another new report, with more... insight into Dr. S and the trial. And again, I'd quote interesting tidbits:

... 6-year-old patient on whom Shelburne performed four pulpotomies; allotting approximately the same time for that operation as for a routine teeth cleaning ...

.... In daily "huddles" of 15 or 20 minutes, Shackelford [dental assistant] testified, Shelburne would go over "how much money each member was supposed to meet." If staff did not meet the financial targets, Shelburne warned of cutting back on his employees’ hours and benefits, and possible layoffs...

... rejected the allegations that Shelburne knowingly submitted fraudulent statements, and argued such financial micro-management alleged by the prosecution would have been "an impossible task" for his client ... several former employees testified that Shelburne often submitted bills himself...

... Wade [Shelburne’s former financial coordinator] testified Wednesday that she found discrepancies between what a patient was scheduled for and what work was actually performed often "a couple of times a day." She recalled deleting procedures that were not performed only to see them reappear on insurance claim forms.

... she [Wade] was "intimidated" by Shelburne, who would become "irate and upset" on the occasions when she questioned him about billing discrepancies...

Jammie Koomer, Shelburne’s appointment coordinator, testified that her boss instructed her not to include a form called a "Guarantee of Services" – informing patients of a right to have corrective work done free of charge – to Medicaid patients.

... 6-year-old boy whose mother testified about four of his teeth Shelburne intended to drill but have never needed repair, a teenager who has false teeth after failed root canals and a woman who said she received three fillings, not the 15 claimed.

... testimony of local dentists who questioned Shelburne’s work.

... Questioning Shelburne’s integrity, Giorno made light of family cruises he said Shelburne wrote off and pricey accommodations enjoyed en route to charity work in Honduras....

The man ain't a saint. His kids won't be driving their beamers anymore, and they won't be taking luxury cruises. People in the know, did not like him and believe him to be a fraud. He had a insurance claim reviewer be his expert witness on dental procedures... couldn't he find ANOTHER DENTIST to back up his claims for more credibility? Seriously, he got his OWN staff (key ones at that) on the stands against him ~ that's the bomb that sank his ship ultimately in my opinion.

And please stop it with the pity case -- just read the last post on the thread I posted earlier --

Did any of you get a letter from Dr.S.asking you to write a letter to the court on his behalf to help him get a lighter sentence? Even had a sample letter to go by in the envelope.

How brazen can he get?! He is gonna be using those sample letters to wipe his bleeding *** soon.

So yeah, TucsonDDS, I'd be checking my charts to make sure they're done right. I'd be making sure my billing coordinator isn't cheating the patients. And if a gov agency says I owe em money, I'd be forking over whatever they want. I'm going to make sure my ship is tight with the staffers going along happily with everything I do. If you don't know wtf I'm talking about, we just might be reading about you in on the net one day as well.

 

[Cold Front]

For you and the previous poster to say he deserves to be burned at the stake is completely uncalled for.

There is nothing wrong with suggesting that the guy should be disciplined. The government has a medicaid fraud department that investigates these things, and they don't pick people out of the hat to prosecute them.

Frankly, the details dreaming2k5 outlines exposes the disgraced dentist as a fraud. It's not like you need a panel of forensic experts to dig out the truth here, the dentist probably had circus of tricks going on at his office that made him not comply with medicaid and business tax guidelines.

Come on, medicaid is funded by tax-payers money (that includes you and I), and last thing we need is that money going to some guys abusing the system, and not using our hard earned money for the right reasons, especially his kids partying on cruises with it.

I demand a personal apology website, rather than a request to sympathize with him for his sins!

 

[LaVidaDeAmreek]

For you and the previous poster to say he deserves to be burned at the stake is completely uncalled for

This is MADNESS! How can you be saying that and keep a straight face? Only with the cleansing power of a python can Dr. S be purged of his sin and be reborn as a new man. Only through the fire of hardship that he never suffered before, will he know the sins that he have committed! Allahu akbar!

 

[DrJeff]

There is nothing wrong with suggesting that the guy should be disciplined. The government has a medicaid fraud department that investigates these things, and they don't pick people out of the hat to prosecute them.

Frankly, the details dreaming2k5 outlines exposes the disgraced dentist as a fraud. It's not like you need a panel of forensic experts to dig out the truth here, the dentist probably had circus of tricks going on at his office that made him not comply with medicaid and business tax guidelines.

Come on, medicaid is funded by tax-payers money (that includes you and I), and last thing we need is that money going to some guys abusing the system, and not using our hard earned money for the right reasons, especially his kids partying on cruises with it.

Yes, but should the Gov't be spending a reported 1 million or so of our taxpayer dollars to prosecute this case??? That's not a very efficient use of tax payer dollars. Not that I condone phantom billing if that's what was done in this case, but if you've ever seen how much down coding and what a ludicris reimbursement schedule most medicaid plans have, well then lets just say that maybe it's the gov't that should be investigated on fraud charges

 

[DrJeff]

Edit: I am going to add this - When I read his son's letter saying that this case boiled down to be about $8000 in overpayment over the period of 5 years, I thought about how I have read on Dentaltown about plenty of stories where insurance companies do an audit and realize they overpaid you by $200 for a procedure you did 5 years ago and send you a letter demanding their money back. It's not as easy as drill, fill, and bill when we have a nation of people clamoring to get out of paying for any healthcare service possible.

If ever an insurance company over reimburses you as a result of THEIR error. Legally you don not have to refund them the difference. Below is that letter that my practices uses whenever this scenario plays out (and it's a rare one), but the few times it's happened and we've attached this letter with the repayment request claim from the ins. company, we've never had to repay THEIR error.

"XXXXX Insurance Company January X, 200X

Participant: John Doe
File ID#: 000001
FC#: ABCDEFG
Patient: Self
Service Date: 01/01/01

Dear Ins Company X:

It is widely held that an insurance carrier is not entitled to recover overpayment made to an innocent third party creditor when (1) the payment was made due solely to the insurer’s mistake, (2) the mistake was not induced by a misrepresentation of the third party creditor, and (3) the third party creditor acted in good faith without prior knowledge of the mistake. See, e.g., Prudential Ins. Co. of America v. Couch, 376 S.E.2d 104 (W. VA. Sup. Ct. of App. 1988); Time Ins. V. Fulton-DeKalb Hosp. Auth., 211 Ga. App. 34, 438 S.E.2d 149 (Ga. App. 1993); St. Mary’s Med. Ctr. V. United Farm Bureau, 624 N.E.2d 939 (Ind. App. 1 Dist. 1993); City of Hope Med. Ctr. V. Superior Court, Cal. App. 4th 633, 10 Cal. Rptr. 2d 465 (Cal. App. 1988); Federated Mutual Ins. Co. v. Good Samaritan Hosp., 191 Neb. 212, 214 N.W.2d 493 (Neb. Sup. Ct. 1974).

Here, Ins Company X knew its own policy payment provisions and alone made the mistake of paying amounts beyond its responsibility. Dr. Great Dentist made no misrepresentations, had no knowledge or notice of Ins Company X’s mistake, extended valuable services, was not unjustly enriched, and simply had no reason to suspect that the payment of services rendered was in error. Ins Company X was the entity that created the situation and was in the best position to have avoided it.

Under the circumstances, I have no obligation to return the “overpayment” and decline to do so. Please confirm that no further efforts will be made to recover sums. I look forward to hearing from you.

Very truly yours,




Great Dentist, DMD"

Feel free to save this one to your files for future reference. A dental colleague of my partner, whose wife is a corporate attorney, drafted this letter for this type of situation that occurred in her husband's office a few years back.

 

[OceanDMD]

If ever an insurance company over reimburses you as a result of THEIR error. Legally you don not have to refund them the difference. Below is that letter that my practices uses whenever this scenario plays out (and it's a rare one), but the few times it's happened and we've attached this letter with the repayment request claim from the ins. company, we've never had to repay THEIR error.

"XXXXX Insurance Company January X, 200X

Participant: John Doe
File ID#: 000001
FC#: ABCDEFG
Patient: Self
Service Date: 01/01/01

Dear Ins Company X:

It is widely held that an insurance carrier is not entitled to recover overpayment made to an innocent third party creditor when (1) the payment was made due solely to the insurer’s mistake, (2) the mistake was not induced by a misrepresentation of the third party creditor, and (3) the third party creditor acted in good faith without prior knowledge of the mistake. See, e.g., Prudential Ins. Co. of America v. Couch, 376 S.E.2d 104 (W. VA. Sup. Ct. of App. 1988); Time Ins. V. Fulton-DeKalb Hosp. Auth., 211 Ga. App. 34, 438 S.E.2d 149 (Ga. App. 1993); St. Mary’s Med. Ctr. V. United Farm Bureau, 624 N.E.2d 939 (Ind. App. 1 Dist. 1993); City of Hope Med. Ctr. V. Superior Court, Cal. App. 4th 633, 10 Cal. Rptr. 2d 465 (Cal. App. 1988); Federated Mutual Ins. Co. v. Good Samaritan Hosp., 191 Neb. 212, 214 N.W.2d 493 (Neb. Sup. Ct. 1974).

Here, Ins Company X knew its own policy payment provisions and alone made the mistake of paying amounts beyond its responsibility. Dr. Great Dentist made no misrepresentations, had no knowledge or notice of Ins Company X’s mistake, extended valuable services, was not unjustly enriched, and simply had no reason to suspect that the payment of services rendered was in error. Ins Company X was the entity that created the situation and was in the best position to have avoided it.

Under the circumstances, I have no obligation to return the “overpayment” and decline to do so. Please confirm that no further efforts will be made to recover sums. I look forward to hearing from you.

Very truly yours,




Great Dentist, DMD"

Feel free to save this one to your files for future reference. A dental colleague of my partner, whose wife is a corporate attorney, drafted this letter for this type of situation that occurred in her husband's office a few years back.

Hey Jeff, have you ever had the insurance company who overpayed threaten to withhold payment/portion of payment from another claim, and if so is that legal for them to do?

 

[DrJeff]

Hey Jeff, have you ever had the insurance company who overpayed threaten to withhold payment/portion of payment from another claim, and if so is that legal for them to do?

Yup, they tried that maneuver just before we got a hold of the letter referenced above, and voila, the threats stopped and the payments(for all claims) kept coming in.

 

[clickytop]

There is nothing wrong with suggesting that the guy should be disciplined. The government has a medicaid fraud department that investigates these things, and they don't pick people out of the hat to prosecute them.

Frankly, the details dreaming2k5 outlines exposes the disgraced dentist as a fraud. It's not like you need a panel of forensic experts to dig out the truth here, the dentist probably had circus of tricks going on at his office that made him not comply with medicaid and business tax guidelines.

Come on, medicaid is funded by tax-payers money (that includes you and I), and last thing we need is that money going to some guys abusing the system, and not using our hard earned money for the right reasons, especially his kids partying on cruises with it.

I demand a personal apology website, rather than a request to sympathize with him for his sins!

You are so ignorant about this situation that it is literally taking every ounce of effort I have to keep blood from shooting out of my ears after reading that statement. I suggest you acquaint yourself with the case before passing judgements.

Dr. Shelburne was not deliberately defrauding the taxpayers. He is going to lose his license and probably spend time in a federal prison for what amounts to clerical errors, many of which were committed by his employees.

As for the shot you took at his lifestyle, how exactly do you think a total of $8,000 ($4,000 of which was already sent to Uncle Sam via taxes) could fund this lavish and extravagant lifestyle you are claiming he and his family lived?

This case is accomplishing 2 things.

1. Wasting millions of dollars of the governments money to prosecute an honest and upstanding dentist over $8000 in misfiled claims.

2. Any dentist will tell you that Medicaid is not a moneymaking venture...most of the time their disbursements will not even cover overhead, so the dentist is actually losing money by seeing the patient. It is public service he is providing to the community so that children who cannot afford care anywhere else will get it. Dr. Shelburne was the only dentist in his county that took Medicaid, meaning that now, thanks to the diligence of the US Attorney prosecuting him, there are no options left for the kids who don't have the money for treatment. And because of this case, I guarantee that a significant number of Medicaid providers will stop accepting it because, as Dr. Shelburne's case proves, it is absolutely not worth the risk. There isn't a dental office in the country that doesn't make the same mistakes, so be careful about passing judgment.

If you or any other dental students are considering taking Medicaid when you graduate, you should reconsider. This could very easily be you in 20 years.

 

[clickytop]

Just because they only found $8000 doesn't mean that's the extent of it. Like the son said, Medicaid shred everything -- so there's no documentation except on the doc's side, and they could only find 8k. Whose to say the doc didn't adjust and shred questionable documents on his side to make it look tight?

So, let's go to another new report, with more... insight into Dr. S and the trial. And again, I'd quote interesting tidbits:



The man ain't a saint. His kids won't be driving their beamers anymore, and they won't be taking luxury cruises. People in the know, did not like him and believe him to be a fraud. He had a insurance claim reviewer be his expert witness on dental procedures... couldn't he find ANOTHER DENTIST to back up his claims for more credibility? Seriously, he got his OWN staff (key ones at that) on the stands against him ~ that's the bomb that sank his ship ultimately in my opinion.

And please stop it with the pity case -- just read the last post on the thread I posted earlier --



How brazen can he get?! He is gonna be using those sample letters to wipe his bleeding *** soon.

So yeah, TucsonDDS, I'd be checking my charts to make sure they're done right. I'd be making sure my billing coordinator isn't cheating the patients. And if a gov agency says I owe em money, I'd be forking over whatever they want. I'm going to make sure my ship is tight with the staffers going along happily with everything I do. If you don't know wtf I'm talking about, we just might be reading about you in on the net one day as well.

DIAF.

 

[pietrodds]

Many of you on here so quick to burn someone at the stake have never practice a freaking day in your life and do not understand the first thing about running a business or how 3rd party reimbursement works. You look like a complete idiot making comments on that which you know nothing about. I cannot comment on the morality of this dentist in question nor do I care to. I can tell you that it is difficult to find dentists to take these patients for a myriad of reasons, one of which is the very low reimbursement and that's if they even show up to their appointments to do work on. The dentists that do accept them and do it in an ethical manor like you would treat any other patient in your practice end up loosing money on them. That means every time you see one of these patients it ends up costing you money. Would the average american pay for another individual(med assistance patient) to just stop by their house for an hour? No, but in essence that is what the gov't is asking the dentists to do. Those that do treat these individuals look for ways to get adequate reimbursement including padding the bill. I sure as hell don't agree with that but it's the nature of the beast and that's why I have never gotten involved with these groups. Individuals who tend to bend the enthical envelope are usually the only ones who chose to get involved with these types of patients as they find ways to make it profitable. It's not so black and white as some student or even totally non-dental person likes to make it out to be. What if the gov't just took that 1 million it spent prosecuting and making an example out of this dentist and upped their reimbursements? All this will do is cause less dentists want to get involved with these programs. Yes, this dentist may indeed be a sleezeball but you fail to understand why this happens in the first place. Burning someone at the stake will only magnify the access to care issues. Better yet, figure out how to get free-loaders who want free dental care to give a damn about their teeth and brush them then we wouldn't even need to have this debate. Think before you speak out so strongly.

 

[gryffindor]

dreaming2k5 - I posted this because it scares the crap out of me as I look to purchase a practice next year. You are potentially taking home 6 figures from your practice, and you are employing people making less than $20/hour - definitely room for disgruntled employees who could turn on you and now you end up in a costly legal mess. I also have no idea what might come to haunt me in the future because I've had to treat Medicaid patients in my residencies and those places weren't always the most well managed clinics.

When I was in dental school and naive, I too would have thought that such stuff clearly only happens to the really bad guys, if you play by the rules you'll be ok. Many honest Medicaid providers on Dentaltown can disprove such idealism for you. Dr. Jeff has posted his experiences on SDN treating the needy population in his CT office as well. Now that I've been out for 4 years, I can't say that I'd wish jail time over some billing inaccuracies upon any fellow member of the profession, no matter how terrible his/her work is. Sure make him pay some fines, make him/her sell the practice and go teach in a school or be an employee in a clinic, but throw the guy in jail? We have far worse crimes that go unnoticed in our country. The government doesn't need to be spending such huge sums of money investigating such a small town operation (it was 1 dentist and less than 10 employees). I'd bet if the government did an audit on some of the actual medicaid recipients, they could find plenty of instances of fraud and throw some of the recipients in jail too. Medicaid recipients in the poor county of VA might actually be poor, but ask any resident on this board and he/she can tell you about encounters with recipients who are gaming the system.

 

[tehrlich]

When I first read the letter, I thought to myself, " aw, what a poor guy... targeted by the gov and screwed over by the people he worked so hard over." But after a while, I realized something -- if he was such a good dentist who served the community by taking medicaid, why didn't he have more testimonies by his patients attesting to his innocence and golden moral standards? Really, to be targeted initially, there has to be some kind of suspicion by the feds. Why would people suspect him if he never did anything wrong? If his standards were great and he treated everyone nice, why would his own employees turn against him? I started to think this is a case of "EVIL DENTIST" - kind of like the ones who enjoy fondling on women's breast and call it TMJ testing. So I went to read the "other side" of the story.

I did a quick search, and found this article on the Pennington Gap Dentist Let me just quote some interesting tidbit that the letter to the fellow doc didn't mention ~



Yeah, like he is such a squeaky clean dentist. The man deserve to be burned at the stakes! Sure, he stated in his letter that
But his errors were intentional! He intentionally told his staff to upcode and bill them for services not rendered. Though he didn't abuse his patients, he sure didn't deny to "making" error.

I'd end my post with this -- A lot of what he did may be "common practice," but just because other dentists get away with it, doesn't make what he did right.

You're an idiot to quote a newspaper when it comes to clinical judgement. Even if all of that were true, he does not deserve to be "burned at the stake." Maybe fined, but not this. Employees will turn on anyone: nice or bad.

This is absolutely ridiculous.

 

[capisce?]

6-year-old patient on whom Shelburne performed four pulpotomies; allotting approximately the same time for that operation as for a routine teeth cleaning

😀😀😍👍

That's hilarious!! Dreaming2k5 your post makes you look like an idiot, supporting such drivel.

i'm a pediatric dentist. I can do four pulp and crowns in 15-20 minutes and the only reason it would take me that long is because the formo has to cook 5 minutes each.

What about my OR cases where I do 8 pulp and crowns, films and anterior strip crowns in 45 minutes?

HAHAA that is too funny!

I've treated people on medicaid for the last 2 years in residency and can tell you they are the trash of the earth. You don't value what you don't pay for and these people have their hand out all day long. They want me to write a script for ibuprofen since it will cost them a buck on medicaid, and they stuff the script into their 400$ coach purse. I will never treat medicaid once July 1 hits and I'm in private practice, I can guarantee you that!

 

[DrJeff]

😀😀😍👍

That's hilarious!! Dreaming2k5 your post makes you look like an idiot, supporting such drivel.

i'm a pediatric dentist. I can do four pulp and crowns in 15-20 minutes and the only reason it would take me that long is because the formo has to cook 5 minutes each.

What about my OR cases where I do 8 pulp and crowns, films and anterior strip crowns in 45 minutes?

Heck, I'm a "lowly" GP, and if that little munchin in the chair is cooperative I could get those 4 pulpotomies and Stainles steel crowns done in 25, maybe 30 minutes tops myself.

HAHAA that is too funny!

I've treated people on medicaid for the last 2 years in residency and can tell you they are the trash of the earth. You don't value what you don't pay for and these people have their hand out all day long. They want me to write a script for ibuprofen since it will cost them a buck on medicaid, and they stuff the script into their 400$ coach purse. I will never treat medicaid once July 1 hits and I'm in private practice, I can guarantee you that!

There is way too much truth in this statement😱

 

[tinman831]

Heck, I'm a "lowly" GP, and if that little munchin in the chair is cooperative I could get those 4 pulpotomies and Stainles steel crowns done in 25, maybe 30 minutes tops myself.



There is way too much truth in this statement😱

And to think... the state of Massachusetts is thinking about passing legislation requiring all health care professionals who wish to practice to accept medicaid.

 

[MsPurtell]

Reading this thread has made me throw out any thought of accepting Medicaid. I was actually thinking of trying to provide Medicaid as a small part of my practice to help patients in need. I also have experience in seeing Medicaid very reluctant to pay for REAL services that were actually needed and performed.

Screw that.

 

[toofshucker]

DO NOT, DO NOT, DO NOT ACCEPT MEDICAID. NOTHING GOOD WILL COME OF IT. The title of this thread should be changed to THE NUMBER ONE REASON TO NOT ACCEPT MEDICAID.

 

[dreaming2k5]

Yes, but should the Gov't be spending a reported 1 million or so of our taxpayer dollars to prosecute this case???

You can answer this by asking yourself, why did the Roman hoist people up on crucifixes? White collar crime is the worst scourge of the Earth!

Dr. Shelburne was not deliberately defrauding the taxpayers.

Yes he was. The newspaper report said so. Since all we have is hearsay, what do you got to back up your side of the argument?

He is going to lose his license and probably spend time in a federal prison for what amounts to clerical errors, many of which were committed by his employees.

He asked his employees to do fraud. His employees swore an oath to be on the stand, we have to take their words on the matter.

... so the dentist is actually losing money by seeing the patient. It is public service he is providing to the community so that children who cannot afford care anywhere else will get it.

Well, he was actually making money because he was stealing it.

Dr. Shelburne was the only dentist in his county that took Medicaid...

From the other website I posted, people stated that he had numerous ads for patients. Good dentists have no need for advertisement -- it's apparent that he wasn't and was hurting for patients and income!

... I guarantee that a significant number of Medicaid providers will stop accepting it because, as Dr. Shelburne's case proves, it is absolutely not worth the risk.

If all dentists reject Medicaid, then reform will come sooner than later. So why not?

DIAF.

Hey, ESAD.

Those that do treat these individuals look for ways to get adequate reimbursement including padding the bill ... I sure as hell don't agree with that

Yup, I think so too.

Individuals who tend to bend the enthical envelope are usually the only ones who chose to get involved with these types of patients as they find ways to make it profitable ... Yes, this dentist may indeed be a sleezeball.

That's what I'm trying to say, but everyone else in this thread seem to disagree.

I can't say that I'd wish jail time over some billing inaccuracies upon any fellow member of the profession, no matter how terrible his/her work is.

No matter how terrible his/her work is? Maybe you should have a 1st year dental student perform a root canal treatment on you.

I'd bet if the government did an audit on some of the actual medicaid recipients, they could find plenty of instances of fraud and throw some of the recipients in jail too.

Two wrongs don't make it right.

You're an idiot to quote a newspaper when it comes to clinical judgement. Even if all of that were true, he does not deserve to be "burned at the stake." Maybe fined...

Well, he is being fined, and jailed for a bit ~ too bad he isn't really getting crucified on a cross. And the newspaper is the only objective source I have to go by (more objective than the son anyway).

Employees will turn on anyone: nice or bad.

Well, apparently, he was really bad. Look at how many ex-employees were references in the articles. Good dentists shouldn't have high staff turnover.

I've treated people on medicaid for the last 2 years in residency and can tell you they are the trash of the earth.

Are you telling me all patients are not equal in your eyes?

That's hilarious!! Dreaming2k5 your post makes you look like an idiot, supporting such drivel ... i'm a pediatric dentist. I can do four pulp and crowns in 15-20 minutes...

I'm a 2nd year with no interest in pediatric dentistry. Glad you got a laugh out of my ignorance! Pat yourself on the back there, capisce 👍 If only you were attesting to Dr. S innocence instead of ... an insurance adjuster eh?

 

[toofshucker]

You can answer this by asking yourself, why did the Roman hoist people up on crucifixes? White collar crime is the worst scourge of the Earth!

The more you talk, the more you reveal your complete lack of any knowledge of real world dentistry. Let's hear what you have to say when it is your front door being kicked down and your under worked, overpaid employees complain about you. Grow up.

 

[gryffindor]

dreaming2k5, no worries, if a Medicaid patient happens to wander into the offices of the posters on this thread demanding to be treated, your colleagues will happily refer the patient over to yours.

Good dentists have no need for advertisement? You have a lot to learn about running a succesful private practice. While you're at it, learn how to do a pulpotomy + stainless steel crown too. It's an essential skill you'll need treating medicaid children.

 

[dreaming2k5]

The more you talk, the more you reveal your complete lack of any knowledge of real world dentistry. Let's hear what you have to say when it is your front door being kicked down and your under worked, overpaid employees complain about you. Grow up.

Complaint is one thing, sworn testimony is another. Whatever truth is out there, I'm going to meet it with my own moral standards and values. It really doesn't matter what you think the real world is all about -- because I'm alive and kicking, and got my own reality to contend with.

Good dentists have no need for advertisement? You have a lot to learn about running a succesful private practice. While you're at it, learn how to do a pulpotomy + stainless steel crown too. It's an essential skill you'll need treating medicaid children.

I'm sure I do have a lot to learn. For most dentists, isn't it trial and error for the most part to become successful? But I am not going to tell my staff to do something illegal in order to cut corners. And it's my personal belief that good dentists shouldn't need to advertise after 20 years of being in practice. All the dentists I shadowed before I came into dental school didn't advertise. The one dentist I went to for 5 month externship didn't advertise either - word of mouth only for all of them and they're doing fine.

And I'm not advocating for medicaid. I'm advocating for basic ADA ethical guidelines. Please see the distinction.

 

[toofshucker]

Complaint is one thing, sworn testimony is another. Whatever truth is out there, I'm going to meet it with my own moral standards and values. It really doesn't matter what you think the real world is all about -- because I'm alive and kicking, and got my own reality to contend with.

That is funny seeing how the real world just had "big brother" completely prohibit this man from a fair trial and from being able to defend himself properly. Whether this man is guilty or not does not mean that he should of ever been guilty before proven so. Benjamin Franklin said the Bill of Rights was set us so 1,000 guilty would go free before one innocent man was imprisoned. Open your eyes to what has gone on here. The thing that makes the US different from everywhere else in the world is your right to live your dreams and your right to protect your dreams. I know you left-wing nuts want to control everything because you know what is best, but that is not your right. What happened to this man's right to a fair trial?

Because of Clinton's inability to be a man and capture Bin Laden time and time again, and then this administrations over-reaching its bounds, this doctor has had his life ruined without a chance to face his accusers and be trialed fairly.

Are you seriously telling me that you believe $8,000 led to his "lavish" lifestyle? Can you honestly look me in the eye and tell me that an assistant knows when a patient is being "over" or "under" treated? Do you really believe that that an "expert" that could not even find 10 composite fillings is legit?

You are so hell-bent on ripping this guy, when you fail to see the many faults on the prosecutions side as well. But, as all you left-wing nuts do, continue to sit on your high perch and cast a blind eye to what is really going on.

 

[toofshucker]

I'm sure I do have a lot to learn. For most dentists, isn't it trial and error for the most part to become successful? But I am not going to tell my staff to do something illegal in order to cut corners. And it's my personal belief that good dentists shouldn't need to advertise after 20 years of being in practice. All the dentists I shadowed before I came into dental school didn't advertise. The one dentist I went to for 5 month externship didn't advertise either - word of mouth only for all of them and they're doing fine.

And I'm not advocating for medicaid. I'm advocating for basic ADA ethical guidelines. Please see the distinction.

I do not believe that "all the dentists I shadowed before I came into dental school didn't advertise," for one minute. Somebody is lying here. And your previous posts don't defend you very well.

 

[dreaming2k5]

That is funny seeing how the real world just had "big brother" completely prohibit this man from a fair trial and from being able to defend himself properly.

The Doc picked trial by jury. I'm also sure, that there was a jury selection process by the prosecution and defense. When the verdict came down against them, suddenly, the jury were called down as the "poor" who have a thing against the "rich."

I'm sure most people in prison would tell the story of how unfair their trial was.

Are you seriously telling me that you believe $8,000 led to his "lavish" lifestyle?

$8000 was presented. Does it matter if it's $8,000 or $8 dollars when the doctor TOLD his billing coordinator to fudge the claim?

Can you honestly look me in the eye and tell me that an assistant knows when a patient is being "over" or "under" treated?

No, but I'm sure they can feel that their boss desire money more than the welfare of the patients when each morning huddle was about the bottom line and how their jobs are at stake every moment if they don't meet the quota.

Do you really believe that that an "expert" that could not even find 10 composite fillings is legit?

I want to point out that I care more about the sworn testimonies from his ex-staffers than the prosecution expert. But, you're using words from his son from a site trying desperately to illicit letters of sympathy from around the country, not a very objective perspective. If he fudged his paper work before, why can't the son be making up BS in order to appeal for our sympathy?

I honestly don't care about the intricacies of the court and how each side tried their best at outwitting each other on a variety of matters. Even if you were to get the son to post up the full court proceedings, I would question the legitimacy and originality of the document. The fact is -- 1) the man knowingly told his staff to do illegal things 2) treatments that were deleted reappeared on claims and dismissed by the doc 3) He put his own kids on payroll when they rendered no services, and wrote off major personal expenses to evade tax.

I do not believe that "all the dentists I shadowed before I came into dental school didn't advertise," for one minute.

It's my own personal belief. I don't really care if you believe it or not.

 

[gryffindor]

No, but I'm sure they can feel that their boss desire money more than the welfare of the patients when each morning huddle was about the bottom line and how their jobs are at stake every moment if they don't meet the quota.

If you, the employer, don't meet and exceed your daily production quota each day, then yes, your staff's jobs are at stake. You have two choices: 1)let someone go to pay your bills or 2) you take home $0 each year and continue paying your staff while underproducing. Now this doesn't mean you have to overtreat, but it does mean the staff has to be aware of the procedures treatment planned for that day.

Spend some time on Dentaltown and prepare to be humbled by the thousands of practicing doctors out there. Maybe you should be posting your thoughts over there, let all those greedy dentists know how immoral it is to put your kids on payroll and how wrong it is to "evade taxes" by deducting legit meeting & travel expenses through your business. 🙄

 

[dreaming2k5]

the staff has to be aware of the procedures treatment planned for that day.

I'm pro-huddling ~ but I doubt specifying quota for each group within the practice and then making them aware of it every other morning is comforting.

Maybe you should be posting your thoughts over there, let all those greedy dentists know how immoral it is to put your kids on payroll and how wrong it is to "evade taxes" by deducting legit meeting & travel expenses through your business.

It's legit to deduct luxury cruise trips with the whole family? I wasn't aware. It's your choice on how you want to go about running your business - but I don't think I'd ever make a login or seek advice at a site where bottom line is the gospel.

 

[servitup]

Evade taxes? lol. *****. He was already paying way more than his fair share to treat kids whose parents are playing the system. Had one in the other day talking about his Wii and Xbox. Must be nice. I can't afford either one and I will have my DDS on Sunday afternoon.

 

[dreaming2k5]

He was already paying way more than his fair share to treat kids whose parents are playing the system.

Oh, so if I do something nice for the community, I wouldn't have to play by the rules of taxation?

 

[toofshucker]

Oh, so if I do something nice for the community, I wouldn't have to play by the rules of taxation?

Your arguments against me are so completely silly that it leads one to wonder what reality you live in. You keep living in your silly little world and let me know when you wake up. You contradict yourself so many times, it is not worth the time.

 

[DrJeff]

Reading this thread has made me throw out any thought of accepting Medicaid. I was actually thinking of trying to provide Medicaid as a small part of my practice to help patients in need. I also have experience in seeing Medicaid very reluctant to pay for REAL services that were actually needed and performed.

Screw that.

The true reality in many cases is that if you want to treat maybe 5 to 10 medicaid families in your practice, the easiest and simpliest way to do so is to NOT sign up with your states medicaid, but to just simply call up the regional healthcenter in your area, and tell them that you'd like to treat X number of families/people and they'll send them your way. Then the very often it's just much easier if you treat them pro bono. You'll end up doing those patient's dentistry the way that you feel is most correct and not be burden by the often very restrictive, way under paying, and often very long to be reimbursed medicaid system. Then keep a record of how much treatment dollars you write off treating your medicaid patients and yearly let your state dental society know what this dollar figure is - then this figure can be used when the often CLUELESS legislators are debating healthcare funding.

 

[DrJeff]

I'm pro-huddling ~ but I doubt specifying quota for each group within the practice and then making them aware of it every other morning is comforting.

You'd be very suprised about this, since in just about every dental office out there, the staff's pay is a direct function of office production. To get a raise, production needs to be increased or expenses need to be decreased(and typically if a practice is doing wholesale decreases of their expenses, raises WON'T be happening). If you daily tell your staff that today's goal is to produce $X and that if $X is produced consistantly over a set amount of time that raises will be given, then you'd really be suprised at how motivated your staff becomes to fill those last minute cancellations.

In my office it's quite easy, we have quarterly production goals(based on current wages). If those goals are exceeded, my partner and I write bonus checks to our staff. If those goals aren't met, no bomus checks, and typically my partner's and my own quarterly dividened check is decreased, and we're not "happy campers" and the staff knows it.

Bottom line, the $$$ is a very powerful motivator for your staff, and dreaming 2k5 I really wish that 5 or so years from now when your out of d-school and having to make the business decisions of a dental practice yourself that you come back and reread this thread and your posts. It's very easy for your now to talk the talk, but try again after you've had to walk the walk too.

 

[DrJeff]

And it's my personal belief that good dentists shouldn't need to advertise after 20 years of being in practice. All the dentists I shadowed before I came into dental school didn't advertise. The one dentist I went to for 5 month externship didn't advertise either - word of mouth only for all of them and they're doing fine.

You mean they didn't even have their names just in a simple 1 line listing in the yellow pages "Dr X 867-5309"?? That's all I do, and It costs me about $120 a month just for that, just my name and phone number in the "dentist" section - no 1/4 page full color add, etc

 

[DrJeff]

It's legit to deduct luxury cruise trips with the whole family? I wasn't aware. It's your choice on how you want to go about running your business - but I don't think I'd ever make a login or seek advice at a site where bottom line is the gospel.

Granted this might be a little of the gray area, but if he did have his entire family on the payroll, and this was a crusie where dental continuing education was offered (and you'd be suprised at how many continuing education courses are offered in very nice vacation locations), then it's legit.

Case in point, later this week is my state dental societies annual meeting held at one of the casino's here in CT. Even though the casino where it's at is maybe 35 miles from my office, my partner and I are paying for hotel rooms for my staff for the night between the 2 days of coontinuing education their taking. They're employees attending a dental meeting and taking continuing education, a LEGITIMATE tax deducation. If the referenced crusie had continuing education offered (and sometimes it's a topic as basic as "modern technology in the professional office") and they had the continuing education credit proof that they attended, I hate to break it to you, but that's legal tax wise.

 

[capisce?]

As most of us know, our government has very strict and detailed codes on taxation. Writing off a vacation if your staff or family is on payroll is completely legal as Dr Jeff explained. If the government wanted to ban it then they would change the tax code.

My employer has her 1 and 3 year olds working for the practice. They are 'models' in all of her pedo pictures in her ads and on her website. It might seem wacky but it's legal and it makes sense. If she wasn't using her own children she would be paying for the right to use stock photography from someone else. This $ can then be placed in various investments/college savings. Once again, if the government felt strongly about this they would write tax code to prevent it. It doesn't exist and it's perfectly legal. It's not 'evading' taxes you dolt. I'm assuming then that you won't even be taking the standard deduction, either, since that is most certainly tax evasion.

 

[La Miraflorina]

The true reality in many cases is that if you want to treat maybe 5 to 10 medicaid families in your practice, the easiest and simpliest way to do so is to NOT sign up with your states medicaid, but to just simply call up the regional healthcenter in your area, and tell them that you'd like to treat X number of families/people and they'll send them your way. Then the very often it's just much easier if you treat them pro bono. You'll end up doing those patient's dentistry the way that you feel is most correct and not be burden by the often very restrictive, way under paying, and often very long to be reimbursed medicaid system. Then keep a record of how much treatment dollars you write off treating your medicaid patients and yearly let your state dental society know what this dollar figure is - then this figure can be used when the often CLUELESS legislators are debating healthcare funding.

This is exactly what I was wondering about as I read through this thread. It does seem much easier to treat a certain number of families pro bono than to deal with the hassels of Medicaid. 👍

Bottom line, the $$$ is a very powerful motivator for your staff, and dreaming 2k5 I really wish that 5 or so years from now when your out of d-school and having to make the business decisions of a dental practice yourself that you come back and reread this thread and your posts. It's very easy for your now to talk the talk, but try again after you've had to walk the walk too.

I think I 😍 Dr. Jeff!!

I've treated people on medicaid for the last 2 years in residency and can tell you they are the trash of the earth. You don't value what you don't pay for and these people have their hand out all day long. They want me to write a script for ibuprofen since it will cost them a buck on medicaid, and they stuff the script into their 400$ coach purse. I will never treat medicaid once July 1 hits and I'm in private practice, I can guarantee you that!

Evade taxes? lol. *****. He was already paying way more than his fair share to treat kids whose parents are playing the system. Had one in the other day talking about his Wii and Xbox. Must be nice. I can't afford either one and I will have my DDS on Sunday afternoon.

Dreaming 2k5, this IS the sad truth. It seems you are living in dream-land. These people think they are "entitled" to healthcare and government handouts. They think they are entitled to the same little luxuries (Wii, expensive purses etc...) that the rest of us buy after earning the money through hard work. Perhaps you have just never met people with this mentality... You will someday. And after you do, as Dr. Jeff did, I urge you to re-read your rants posted here.

 

[servitup]

Oh, so if I do something nice for the community, I wouldn't have to play by the rules of taxation?

The rules of taxation already screw the hard workers and successful. I also don't think the tax code is a morality code. I believe every person should do as much as possible within the confines of the code to decrease their tax burden while maintaining the lifestyle they desire. This includes hiring family members and expensing vacations/cars, etc. to the fullest extent allowed by the law.

 

[dreaming2k5]

if the referenced crusie had continuing education offered ... they had the continuing education credit proof that they attended, I hate to break it to you, but that's legal tax wise.

I once attended BICON's implant CE course and their international offerings is vacation like. However, if such was the case with Dr. S, I'm sure the defense would've brought it up.

I really don't care to discuss this further unless new information are introduced. Currently, you guys are only bringing up marginally defendable points about Shelburne and attempting to justify them by telling me "everyone does it, so it's okay." Even worse, you're now blaming the patient!!

So to end the post, I want to mention that I'm on 4 yr Air Force HPSP ~ I won't be facing the hardships that an average dentist must go through straight out of D school. But in 5 years, when the time comes to decide whether I want to separate and go into private practice, I hope to reflect back to this thread. I hope to remember how bitter dentists can be about their work and lifestyle. I hope to remember that even students, not even practicing yet, have already decided they'd be compromising their moral in order to live the lifestyle they "deserve." I hope to remember that all patients aren't the same in the eyes of cynical and stereotyping dentists in the civilian sector.

Good job, practicing dentists of this thread ~ you've given us dental students a bright future to look forward to.

 

[tehrlich]

I once attended BICON's implant CE course and their international offerings is vacation like. However, if such was the case with Dr. S, I'm sure the defense would've brought it up.

I really don't care to discuss this further unless new information are introduced. Currently, you guys are only bringing up marginally defendable points about Shelburne and attempting to justify them by telling me "everyone does it, so it's okay." Even worse, you're now blaming the patient!!

So to end the post, I want to mention that I'm on 4 yr Air Force HPSP ~ I won't be facing the hardships that an average dentist must go through straight out of D school. But in 5 years, when the time comes to decide whether I want to separate and go into private practice, I hope to reflect back to this thread. I hope to remember how bitter dentists can be about their work and lifestyle. I hope to remember that even students, not even practicing yet, have already decided they'd be compromising their moral in order to live the lifestyle they "deserve." I hope to remember that all patients aren't the same in the eyes of cynical and stereotyping dentists in the civilian sector.

Good job, practicing dentists of this thread ~ you've given us dental students a bright future to look forward to.

It will be best for you to stay in the military and practice. You will have great mentors. You will succeed as long as you follow the rules. I'm sure you'll do great.

But, when you get out, that will be a different story.

 

[DrJeff]

I once attended BICON's implant CE course and their international offerings is vacation like. However, if such was the case with Dr. S, I'm sure the defense would've brought it up.

Or maybe the journalist who wrote the article decided to omit that part??? Wouldn't be the 1st time a newspaper has taken issues with dentists!

We may very well NEVER know the truth on both sides in this case. That's where your line of debate runs into some problems. Let's say that this goes to trial and a jury acquits him of all charges, will your line then be "gov't conspiracy?"

I really don't care to discuss this further unless new information are introduced. Currently, you guys are only bringing up marginally defendable points about Shelburne and attempting to justify them by telling me "everyone does it, so it's okay." Even worse, you're now blaming the patient!!

you need to be real carefull given the patient interaction you've had in a sheltered environment of dental school and what in many instances will be a more sheltered patient environment in the Air Force (and that last part about the Air Force being an argueably more sheltered environment comes not from myself, but one of my very good friends and d-school classmates who has been in private practice now for 7 years after doing his 4 years in the Air Force). Many of the medicaid patients you've likely seen in d-school are the "good" medicaid patients who want to seek comprehensive care. In private practice while this "good" medicaid patient exists, there are usually more "bad" ones who show up when they please, but at the same time feel that they have the right to be seen the second they want to.

Good job, practicing dentists of this thread ~ you've given us dental students a bright future to look forward to.

Nope, we're actually giving you a realistic view of what REAL LIFE private practice is like in a good chunk of this country. In many cases, you could substitute any insurance company for the government in this scenario. The problem exists when you have some students who have this ultra rosey view of things and just almost feel a sense of entitlement to get everything without having to work for it. Please, go out and run your own practice and see what its like to have mutliple employees who have a paycheck riding on your work each week, manage multiple hygienists, a full schedule of your own patients, a few extra emergencies to fit in, a deadline when you have to be done by at the end of the day to pick your kids up from school, and then come back and talk to us.

You can make a very good living as a dentist, but you will find that you need to work at it, and it's not all easy and stress free day in and ay out.

 

[capisce?]

Ahhhh, it all makes sense now. I will preface this by saying I am not trying to disparage military dentistry in the least. But it is a completely different animal compared to private practice, with both pros and cons.

But your attitude now makes sense. You will be practicing in a scenario where you will be punching the clock from 8-4 with very limited requirements on how much you need to produce, staff you have to manage, or any of the other stresses of private practice and paying the practice bills. This coming from an air force GP for 4 years who is now in pedo residency with me. Good luck.