Hospital Executive and Physician Pay Gap Widens

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So your argument is deductibles, co pays and premiums were not rising significantly prior to ACA?

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Of course they were, the question is did the ACA a) make that happen faster b) make that happen slower c) make no real difference

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You're wrong: These are two intertwined issues. The problem *STARTED* with non-evidence based SOS d(f) for hospitals that did not incorporate any means testing or objective vetting of cost-to-charge ratios. Then, as usual, the government made the problem worse by creating policies that encouraged the absorption of independent MD's to reduce revenue leakage from their systems.

We have to attack the problem on two fronts: First, deal with the legacy MD's/hospitals by reducing & modernizing SOS d(f) payments. And, prevent new MD's from becoming hospital employees by encouraging new and disruptive delivery models: Direct access, concierge, etc.
Nobody is implying that being hospital employed is the root cause for SOS differential. The SOS differential is the root cause you are employed by a hospital! No SOS differential, no reason for hospitals to employ you!

And, there is nothing wrong with being hospital employed either. What is wrong is hospitals stealing billions of revenue for things that can be done infinitely cheaper in ASCs and office settings.

The problem is with the hospital and their lobbyists and the corrupt folks in DC.
im not completely sure you are correct, if we look for the root. why did SOS start in the first place?

it seems the problem actually started when hospital systems found that they could not be financially viable given the fact that they were required to take on such onerous burdens as self-pay and Medicaid, with significant costs of end of life care. when hospitals realized that SOS would be such a huge financial boon, then ligament's points make sense.

i find it hard to believe that reducing and eliminating SOS differentials will benefit the system as a whole, as the initial/root problem will rise up - how do we provide for indigent care/Medicaid care without hospitals going broke?

fwiw, this is an interesting take on things: Do Most Hospitals Benefit from Directly Employing Physicians?

The surge in hospital employment of physicians predated Obamacare by at least six years, and had two key drivers. The first was independent baby-boomer physicians — particularly those in primary care — found themselves unable to recruit new partners. Newer physicians, heavily burdened by student debt, were not inclined either to take on entrepreneurial risk or the 60-hour work weeks independent practice entailed.

The second was cuts in Medicare payments for office-based imaging. Thanks to the Deficit Reduction Act of 2005, specialties such as cardiology, orthopedics, and medical oncology that relied on the revenue that imaging generated were hit hard. As a result, many found it advantageous to be employed by hospitals. Under Medicare rules, in addition to professional fees, hospitals can charge a Part B technical fee for their services and therefore can pay practitioners more than they could earn in private practice.

Then, beginning in 2009, the Obama administration’s policies increased the exodus of physicians from private practices to health systems. The “meaningful use” provisions of the HITECH Act of 2009 provided both incentives and penalties for physicians to adopt electronic records, but hospitals and very corporate enterprises had more resources to comply with meaningful-use requirements.

The value-based-payment schemes created by the Affordable Care Act also markedly increased documentation requirements and, as a result, the overhead of practices, driving more physicians into hospital employment models.

There have been a number of reasons hospitals have been hiring physicians. Some, particularly those in rural areas, had no choice but to turn physicians into employees. Retiring independent physicians were leaving large gaps in care in their economically challenged communities. Consequently, hospitals that did not step in to fill the gaps were in danger of closing.

Separately, some hospitals or systems sought to grab business from their competitors by acquiring physicians who hospitalized their patients at competing facilities. These physicians’ inpatient and, particularly, outpatient imaging and laboratory volume generated additional revenues for the acquiring hospital or system.

A third apparent motivation was to corner the local physician market in order to obtain more favorable rates from health insurers. This seemed to have been a major rationale for St. Luke’s Health Systems acquisition of Seltzer Medical Group, Idaho’s largest independent, multi-specialty physician practice group, which led to an anti-trust action.

Yet another reason for making physicians employees was to position the organization for capitated, or value-based, payment. Hospitals believed that “salarying” physicians would help control clinical volumes and thus make it easier to perform in capitated contracts.

Finally, some hospital and system CEOs were tired of negotiating with local independent physician groups or national physician-staffing firms like MedNax and TeamHealth over incomes and coverage of the hospitals’ 24/7 services such as the emergency department, the intensive care unit (ICU), and diagnostic services like radiology and pathology. Building an in-house staff of physicians seemed like an attractive alternative.
none of this discusses SOS differential as being a primary reason towards hiring physicians...
 
Of course they were, the question is did the ACA a) make that happen faster b) make that happen slower c) make no real difference

C

but we dont really know, b/c we cant compare 2018 values to what they would have been without the ACA in place

right now, it is a perfect slope
 
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- how do we provide for indigent care/Medicaid care without hospitals going broke?
.

it is pretty clear that there are those on this forum who dont really care about that question
 
C

but we dont really know, b/c we cant compare 2018 values to what they would have been without the ACA in place

right now, it is a perfect slope
That's been my best guess as well looking at overall trends.

That said, I think its screwed over the middle class a bit more. My DPC practice was 90% blue collar folks whose premiums went up significantly in 2014 and 2015 so they lost coverage. It makes sense if you think about it - if premiums increased at the rate they had been but a decent chunk of people were getting their premiums subsidized by the government, for the out of pocket premium expenses to keep going up at the same rate (which they did) it means the people paying full price for their premiums likely were paying much more than they were previously.
 
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Of course they were, the question is did the ACA a) make that happen faster b) make that happen slower c) make no real difference
Well my point is that some on this board blame the ACA ( and the Black Bogeynman)as sole reason that Insurance costs have gone up ( Ligament). Those that have been in practice longer know better than that. Costs have been rising significantly
for the last 30 years and on current path are not sustainable
 
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Well my point is that some on this board blame the ACA ( and the Black Bogeynman)as sole reason that Insurance costs have gone up ( Ligament). Those that have been in practice longer know better than that. Costs have been rising significantly
for the last 30 years and on current path are not sustainable
The ACA was supposed to LOWER costs and make it sustainable. Did it do that?

"One of the major reasons we passed the Affordable Care Act was to bring down costs, something the health-care law does in three ways: by increasing insurance-market competition, assisting those who can’t afford coverage, and tackling the underlying cost of medical care."

The Affordable Care Act, helping Americans curb health-care costs
 
The ACA was supposed to LOWER costs and make it sustainable. Did it do that?

"One of the major reasons we passed the Affordable Care Act was to bring down costs, something the health-care law does in three ways: by increasing insurance-market competition, assisting those who can’t afford coverage, and tackling the underlying cost of medical care."

The Affordable Care Act, helping Americans curb health-care costs

well this is a little off topic, as my point was costs were soaring prior to ACA but,

Cost did go down for millions of people that didn't have insurance it allowed them to have it.
Republicans sabotaged from the get go allowing states to opt out

and since we are talking about popularity of policy

Fox News poll: Voters like Obamacare more than GOP tax cuts
 
well this is a little off topic, as my point was costs were soaring prior to ACA but,

Cost did go down for millions of people that didn't have insurance it allowed them to have it.
Republicans sabotaged from the get go allowing states to opt out

and since we are talking about popularity of policy

Fox News poll: Voters like Obamacare more than GOP tax cuts
I don't have strong opinions about either, but the news coverage of the ACA compared to the tax cuts I suspect plays a big role in that.
 
things did not get better for "people who pay for insurance" after obamacare. i actually dont think obamacare moved the needle all that much. the trends lonelobo posted are pretty telling.

Socialism, Corporatism, and Destruction of Patient-Centered Medical Care - AAPS | Association of American Physicians and Surgeons

We need:
  • Patients spending their own money as they choose, as through Health Savings Accounts.
  • Price transparency to allow patients to make sound choices, through genuine patient value-based purchasing.
  • True risk-based catastrophic, reasonably priced medical insurance plans, formerly called “major medical” coverage, which were outlawed by the ironically named Affordable Care Act.
  • Competition in the pharmaceuticals market, and removal of safe harbors for kickbacks to PBMs.
  • Tort reform
 
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i find it hard to believe that reducing and eliminating SOS differentials will benefit the system as a whole, as the initial/root problem will rise up - how do we provide for indigent care/Medicaid care without hospitals going broke?
I think we need to look at indigent care differently than we look at free market care. We decide what is truly necessary health care and what can be provided in free/charitable/outpatient and home based venues.

It should be done at the community level IMO. For example, San Francisco, a place of extraordinary wealth, should deal with its own health care issues and homelessness while they're at it.
 
I think we need to look at indigent care differently than we look at free market care. We decide what is truly necessary health care and what can be provided in free/charitable/outpatient and home based venues.

It should be done at the community level IMO. For example, San Francisco, a place of extraordinary wealth, should deal with its own health care issues and homelessness while they're at it.
technically, medicare advantage makes up 15-20% of total patients out there. medicaid and medicare probably cover around 73 million americans.

private practices will not be able to provide the volume or amounts necessary to cover even basic rudimentary outpatient pain care (ie no procedural interventions, just follow ups and home exercise programs....).

unfortunately, medicaid patients in particular are more likely to be disabled and to be on chronic opioid therapy. one can argue that they require more intensive pain management (again, not from a procedural standpoint)


i know, i know, you probably had a case where you provided free care because you felt generous.

but do you do it for 1 out of 6 patients?
 
Agree. Obama purposely crippled private practice physicians with Obamacare, skyrocketing co-pays and deductibles and premiums, forcing many to loose profit margins and sell out to hospital systems who with their criminally high SOS differential sucked them up like filter feeders. The entire goal of Obamacare was to destroy private practice and force socialized medicine as a result.

Things were much, much better prior to Obamacare for patients who paid for insurance and for physicians.

How Formerly Independent Doctors Were Pushed Out of Business

"Your doctors didn't jump out of business; they were pushed. And they were pushed by people way too convinced of their qualifications to redesign the world around them."
 
technically, medicare advantage makes up 15-20% of total patients out there. medicaid and medicare probably cover around 73 million americans.

private practices will not be able to provide the volume or amounts necessary to cover even basic rudimentary outpatient pain care (ie no procedural interventions, just follow ups and home exercise programs....).

unfortunately, medicaid patients in particular are more likely to be disabled and to be on chronic opioid therapy. one can argue that they require more intensive pain management (again, not from a procedural standpoint)


i know, i know, you probably had a case where you provided free care because you felt generous.

but do you do it for 1 out of 6 patients?
I can't do it for any patients. We're talking about Medicaid pts on disability and chronic opioids? I am not that generous with my time or my tax dollars (if I can help it). This would fall under "non-essential" care in my book.
 
this is one of the main reasons why a free market economy is not reasonable:

Pharma chief defends 400% drug price rise as a ‘moral requirement’ | Financial Times




Pharma chief defends 400% drug price rise as a ‘moral requirement’

A pharma executive has defended his decision to raise the price of an antibiotic mixture to more than $2,000 a bottle, arguing there was a “moral requirement to sell the product at the highest price”. Last month, Nostrum Laboratories, a small Missouri-based drugmaker, more than quadrupled the price of a bottle of nitrofurantoin from $474.75 to $2,392, according to Elsevier’s Gold Standard drug database. Nitrofurantoin is an antibiotic used to treat bladder infections that was first marketed in 1953, which appears on the World Health Organization’s list of essential medicines. It comes in a tablet form as well as a liquid version that Nostrum makes. In an interview, Nirmal Mulye, Nostrum chief executive, said he had priced the product according to market dynamics, adding: “I think it is a moral requirement to make money when you can . . . to sell the product for the highest price.”
 
This drug would not exist in anything other than a free market economy. Is that your preference?
And in a free market, no one would buy that and he'd have to lower the price.

Just like he'll do in a few months the when every insurance plan drops his drugs because there are other alternatives to nitrofurantoin that are very cheap.
 
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This drug would not exist in anything other than a free market economy. Is that your preference?
Oddly enough, nitrofurantoin is available in almost all the developed world, for apparently between $0.1 to $9.20 for a course of treatment......

Italy, Latvia, Greece, Peru, France, Mexico, Guatemala, etc...


So no, you’re wrong.
 
Oddly enough, nitrofurantoin is available in almost all the developed world, for apparently between $0.1 to $9.20 for a course of treatment......

Italy, Latvia, Greece, Peru, France, Mexico, Guatemala, etc...


So no, you’re wrong.
It's pretty ballsy that a company would increase prices so high on a generic drug in a "free market". After all, consumers in a free market are free to choose the lowest price option when they spend their hard-earned money...
 
Oddly enough, nitrofurantoin is available in almost all the developed world, for apparently between $0.1 to $9.20 for a course of treatment......

Italy, Latvia, Greece, Peru, France, Mexico, Guatemala, etc...


So no, you’re wrong.
But where was the drug developed and tested?
 
It is been on the market for 65 years. I think they probably made back their investment on R&D and related costs ..... say in 1970.

This is just flat out price gouging and one of the many symptoms of what is wrong with healthcare in US
 
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Don't disagree that it is price gouging, but are you advocating a company should start giving away a product at cost once R&D is recouped? Do you charge a lot less for injections since you paid off your fluoro machine?

OTOH, the alternative isn't exactly a free market here, because patients aren't "shopping" for the cheapest antibiotic. They get what they're prescribed, which is usually done with little consideration of cost. (I, personally, wouldn't think of the cost of any old, generic antibiotic over another.) "Shopping" only happens if the pt. is floored with the price enough to go back to the doctor asking for another option.

Could there be a reason to "bid" themselves out of the market for this drug? I can understand the economics of "gouging" to profit from a niche drug, but I don't see how that would work for Nitrofurantoin with so many alternatives available.
 
AbbVie boasts of extending Humira's U.S. monopoly

Bill Chase, chief financial officer of AbbVie, on Wednesday explained the company's long-term strategy for Humira, the top-selling drug in the world, to Wall Street investors at an industry conference:

"You've seen us execute very nicely with our legal strategy and the settlements around the U.S. events to delay the onset of [loss of Humira's exclusivity] into the 2022-2023 time period."
Between the lines: This is a pretty candid moment. Cheaper versions of Humira are hitting European markets next month, and a top AbbVie executive is celebrating two separate deals that would prevent that from happening in the U.S. — where Humira's annual costs are as much as a high-end car — for five years.
 
AbbVie boasts of extending Humira's U.S. monopoly

Bill Chase, chief financial officer of AbbVie, on Wednesday explained the company's long-term strategy for Humira, the top-selling drug in the world, to Wall Street investors at an industry conference:

"You've seen us execute very nicely with our legal strategy and the settlements around the U.S. events to delay the onset of [loss of Humira's exclusivity] into the 2022-2023 time period."
Between the lines: This is a pretty candid moment. Cheaper versions of Humira are hitting European markets next month, and a top AbbVie executive is celebrating two separate deals that would prevent that from happening in the U.S. — where Humira's annual costs are as much as a high-end car — for five years.
It's a difficult balance for policy because patent money is the driver of innovation for these companies. If you don't respect the patents, the drugs won't get invented.
 
this is one of the main reasons why a free market economy is not reasonable:

Pharma chief defends 400% drug price rise as a ‘moral requirement’ | Financial Times

You need to cultivate and nurture Sith-like rage toward the Pharmacy Benefit Managers. They are the real rapists of the system, not the manufacturers:

Terms of Service Violation

Eliminate SOS, PBM drug spread pricing, 340B-Hospital boondoggles, and bloated hospital C-suite pay and every Medicaid patient could get a stim...
 
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Don't disagree that it is price gouging, but are you advocating a company should start giving away a product at cost once R&D is recouped? Do you charge a lot less for injections since you paid off your fluoro machine?

OTOH, the alternative isn't exactly a free market here, because patients aren't "shopping" for the cheapest antibiotic. They get what they're prescribed, which is usually done with little consideration of cost. (I, personally, wouldn't think of the cost of any old, generic antibiotic over another.) "Shopping" only happens if the pt. is floored with the price enough to go back to the doctor asking for another option.

Could there be a reason to "bid" themselves out of the market for this drug? I can understand the economics of "gouging" to profit from a niche drug, but I don't see how that would work for Nitrofurantoin with so many alternatives available.
im pointing this out as a counterpoint to the thought that a free market system towards healthcare will bring down costs.

likewise, eliminating SOS and other changes will not change the underlying desire of hospitals, etc. to be driven by profit.
 
Don't disagree that it is price gouging, but are you advocating a company should start giving away a product at cost once R&D is recouped? Do you charge a lot less for injections since you paid off your fluoro machine?

OTOH, the alternative isn't exactly a free market here, because patients aren't "shopping" for the cheapest antibiotic. They get what they're prescribed, which is usually done with little consideration of cost. (I, personally, wouldn't think of the cost of any old, generic antibiotic over another.) "Shopping" only happens if the pt. is floored with the price enough to go back to the doctor asking for another option.

Could there be a reason to "bid" themselves out of the market for this drug? I can understand the economics of "gouging" to profit from a niche drug, but I don't see how that would work for Nitrofurantoin with so many alternatives available.

Who is talking about giving away anything? We are talking about a 400% increase on a 65 yo drug.

This tells you all you need to know about the CEO:

He also defended the actions of Martin Shkreli, who became infamous in 2015 for his decision to raise the price of an Aids and cancer drug from $13.50 to $750 per tablet. Shkreli was jailed earlier this year on unrelated fraud charges. “I agree with Martin Shkreli that when he raised the price of his drug he was within his rights because he had to reward his shareholders,” said Mr Mulye.

I am all about making money, but screwing people to do it is not my cup of tea
 
It's a difficult balance for policy because patent money is the driver of innovation for these companies. If you don't respect the patents, the drugs won't get invented.

there is a difference between profit and greed. there always has been and always will be greed, it's the american way, but policymakers know this and tolerate it to an extent. But there is a limit, and too many of these companies are crossing it lately while publicly flaunting it. That creates anger which will inevitably lead to regulation
 
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