Hospitals are charging unsuspecting patients "facility fees" for routine medical care...

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pastafan

Interventional Pain Physician
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please delete this post before drusso sees it. im joking -- sort of....
 
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I was one of these…got an EGD. After all the damn facility fees I paid a total of $700 out of pocket while my insurance paid like $400. And this was within my own health system that I work for. And I don’t have a high deductible plan. Complete bs
 
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I was one of these…got an EGD. After all the damn facility fees I paid a total of $700 out of pocket while my insurance paid like $400. And this was within my own health system that I work for. And I don’t have a high deductible plan. Complete bs
The only function of insurance companies and Medicare is to use their market dominance to force vendors to accept below market rates. They are cancers on the free market.
 
The only function of insurance companies and Medicare is to use their market dominance to force vendors to accept below market rates. They are cancers on the free market.

:rofl: "below market rates" that's a good one....walk into a GI clinic, look around the waiting room and ask yourself how many of those people have a spare 700+ bucks they could scrounge up to spend on an EGD that's being done for "reflux".

Maket rates would almost certainly be significantly lower for most procedures if people actually had to pay for all care out of pocket.
 
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Office visit with a facility fee is what gets everyone upset. Some hospitals, charge a facility fee on a telemed visit.
 
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"The fees show up on patients’ bills after hospitals snap up clinics and doctors. Hospitals can designate the newly acquired clinics as an extension of their operations, forcing patients to pay the fees to cover costs for the entire hospital." —and physicians don't even get a lot of this extra money haha. That's the real shame.
 
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Ortho surgeon in the comments is spot on:

"When most physicians were in independent practice, this phenomenon did not exist. The harsh reality is for most physicians, the costs of maintaining an independent practice have become cost prohibitive. Physician reimbursement has been stagnant or decreasing for decades while expenses have increased. In my city, at the time of my retirement from surgical practice, the annual business costs including rent, supplies, office staff, electronic medical record, health, liability and malpractice insurance were 250- 300K/ year per surgeon before taking one dime in salary. Unfortunately, the fees paid for surgical procedures dropped 60% by Medicare over the same time period and nearly as much for private insurance. Medicaid was worse. Passing the additional costs of care, not covered by insurance, to the patient, commonly known as balance billing, is illegal in my state. Most physicians worked harder and longer to make up the difference but that can only go so far. The logical solution for many has been to become employed by a hospital system. Most are paid a salary based on expectations of a certain level of "productivity". The business costs of providing care which increase every year, are covered by the hospital system which, unlike the doctor, does have the latitude to charge additional fees to the patient. This is a simplistic explanation of a complex problem but it's the sad reality for doctors. I'm glad I'm done. I loved my job but the business side not so much.

I suspect my orthopedic colleagues would love to receive even half of what you think is the fee for a knee replacement. In reality, Medicare compensates the surgeon about $1450 for a total knee replacement which includes any outpatient services provided by the surgeon for the first 90 days after the procedure. The hospital probably receives a payment in excess of $50,000 or more. Joint replacements are generally profitable for most hospitals. For the surgeon, the reimbursement is inadequate to support an independent practice. Again, another reason why independent practice is dying and surgeons are choosing to be employed. The hospitals have the money.

You are correct. Hospital fees have generally increased over time while physician reimbursement decreased. which is yet another compelling reason to be come employed."
 
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Ortho surgeon in the comments is spot on:

"When most physicians were in independent practice, this phenomenon did not exist. The harsh reality is for most physicians, the costs of maintaining an independent practice have become cost prohibitive. Physician reimbursement has been stagnant or decreasing for decades while expenses have increased. In my city, at the time of my retirement from surgical practice, the annual business costs including rent, supplies, office staff, electronic medical record, health, liability and malpractice insurance were 250- 300K/ year per surgeon before taking one dime in salary. Unfortunately, the fees paid for surgical procedures dropped 60% by Medicare over the same time period and nearly as much for private insurance. Medicaid was worse. Passing the additional costs of care, not covered by insurance, to the patient, commonly known as balance billing, is illegal in my state. Most physicians worked harder and longer to make up the difference but that can only go so far. The logical solution for many has been to become employed by a hospital system. Most are paid a salary based on expectations of a certain level of "productivity". The business costs of providing care which increase every year, are covered by the hospital system which, unlike the doctor, does have the latitude to charge additional fees to the patient. This is a simplistic explanation of a complex problem but it's the sad reality for doctors. I'm glad I'm done. I loved my job but the business side not so much.

I suspect my orthopedic colleagues would love to receive even half of what you think is the fee for a knee replacement. In reality, Medicare compensates the surgeon about $1450 for a total knee replacement which includes any outpatient services provided by the surgeon for the first 90 days after the procedure. The hospital probably receives a payment in excess of $50,000 or more. Joint replacements are generally profitable for most hospitals. For the surgeon, the reimbursement is inadequate to support an independent practice. Again, another reason why independent practice is dying and surgeons are choosing to be employed. The hospitals have the money.

You are correct. Hospital fees have generally increased over time while physician reimbursement decreased. which is yet another compelling reason to be come employed."


…..but I deserve 80% of my collections!!!!
 
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:rofl: "below market rates" that's a good one....walk into a GI clinic, look around the waiting room and ask yourself how many of those people have a spare 700+ bucks they could scrounge up to spend on an EGD that's being done for "reflux".

Maket rates would almost certainly be significantly lower for most procedures if people actually had to pay for all care out of pocket.
For the specific example of a person with GERD getting an EGD at a hospital in the ghetto, you are totally spot on.

Now go into an average American neighborhood doctor's office and see how many patients have an iphone.

Why do you think people buy healthcare insurance?
 
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Office visit with a facility fee is what gets everyone upset. Some hospitals, charge a facility fee on a telemed visit.
Now that’s really messed up. The entire system is a scam, and sadly as an employed physician I’m part of the problem. But what else can one do? As the ortho above said, independent practice is financially unsustainable
 
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Come work with me, or Bob Barker, or my friend in Southern Oklahoma, or my friend in Nebraska, or my friend just outside of Fort Worth all who are independent private practice folks, and are doing just fine financially. This whole idea that it is financially unsustainable to be in private practice is nonsense, at least in the pain management space anyway. I can’t speak to other specialties like orthopedic surgery. However, I will admit that I agree completely with everything else Orthopedic Surgeon said. I think pain management is just unique in that we can do in office procedures which still generate enough of a fee to the doctor that it can be sustainable.
 
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The orthopedic surgeon has the crippling 90 day global. There is nothing worse than not getting paid for a cervical mbb/rfa because you did a $400 vertiflex 60 days prior and forgot to use the appropriate modifiers. I’m sure the same thing happens to them when they fix one joint and then move onto carpal tunnel or an arthroscopy. But this issue affects the majority of their patients, not one or two a month like us.

As @gdub25 said, you can still be very successful in private practice pain. You just have to know how and why you get paid and remain vigilant. I caught over $1500 in coding mistakes this weekend.

To be successful in private practice pain, you have to have at least average skills, intelligence, above average for doctors personality (I’m average for normal people personality, but a fair bit above average compared to other doctors), but a really strong work ethic. The doctor part for me is easy, the business of medicine and dealing with staff/billing/collections is the hard part. It can be really hard and stressful. So what I encounter and gdub encounters as well, is finding the right person to join the team but that understands the business isn’t for sale or they are never going to be partner unless they are willing to show over a period of years that they are willing to the dirty work to make the business run. No one understands how much work that is until they do it.
 
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"The fees show up on patients’ bills after hospitals snap up clinics and doctors. Hospitals can designate the newly acquired clinics as an extension of their operations, forcing patients to pay the fees to cover costs for the entire hospital." —and physicians don't even get a lot of this extra money haha. That's the real shame.

Physicians don’t get a penny of it
 
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the only thing that really lowers prices is competition.
 
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Come work with me, or Bob Barker, or my friend in Southern Oklahoma, or my friend in Nebraska, or my friend just outside of Fort Worth all who are independent private practice folks, and are doing just fine financially. This whole idea that it is financially unsustainable to be in private practice is nonsense, at least in the pain management space anyway. I can’t speak to other specialties like orthopedic surgery. However, I will admit that I agree completely with everything else Orthopedic Surgeon said. I think pain management is just unique in that we can do in office procedures which still generate enough of a fee to the doctor that it can be sustainable.

so, your examples are all quite rural.

id argue that it is much harder to make PP work in a more urban or suburban setting, especially along the coasts. it works for cash-pay procedures like PRP and regenerative medicine, but that gets into a bit of a gray area.....
 
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um... hospital facility fees have been in place for decades.

drusso has been posting about them for as long as i can remember.

how is this news?



and fwiw, facility fees and hospital consolidating private practices is the price of capitalism. acquisition, consolidation, controlling market share, etc. own the competition.
 
um... hospital facility fees have been in place for decades.

drusso has been posting about them for as long as i can remember.

how is this news?



and fwiw, facility fees and hospital consolidating private practices is the price of capitalism. acquisition, consolidation, controlling market share, etc. own the competition.
"capitalism" implies a fair playing field. the facility fees create an unfair advantage -- essentially a monopoly. the pendulum will swing too far towards the hospitals, and then back again at some point
 
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Cross posting @ShockIndex into this thread. They will never love you back. Liberate yourself if you can:

I mention this because this thread seems to have a bunch of errors, oversimplifications, and outright misstatements floating around in it. A big oversimplification and misstatement is the notion that these large, private/public non-profits can be easily brought to heel by the DOJ. The DOJ’s Anti-Trust Division follows specific guidelines and policies that are shaped by federal law. Large healthcare systems employ armies of lawyers, some with prior experience working for DOJ and DOC, whose job it is to help the system grow within federal law. I’ll refer back to the example of Atrium Health as the behemoth in the China shop that has massively expanded across the country despite swatting away various anti-trust claims from the DOJ, NC government, and media. Ironically, Atrium likes to fall back on its founding charter as a quasi-government entity (ie Mecklenburg Hospital Authority) when skirting anti-trust accusations. Regardless, look at how fluidly Atrium absorbed Wake Forest Baptist Health system to control 1/3 the healthcare delivery in NC (a benchmark for state and federal anti-trust scrutiny), and then pivoted to form a “strategic partnership” with Aurora/Advocate Health in the mid-West…that is conveniently headquartered in Charlotte…with Atrium’s CEO at the helm.

Bottom line, the DOJ has not saved physicians from themselves in the past, and is not going to save us tomorrow. Such thinking is as much false hope as it is an abdication in our own actions that brought us here. Part of this is a problem of our own making because we have surrendered our autonomy out of financial and personal expediency. Getting that back is going to take a pound of flesh from our collective hides. My hat is off to the doctors who are paying that debt, sometimes by leaving medicine all together, and told the mega systems to f-off in the process.
 
um... hospital facility fees have been in place for decades.

drusso has been posting about them for as long as i can remember.

how is this news?



and fwiw, facility fees and hospital consolidating private practices is the price of capitalism. acquisition, consolidation, controlling market share, etc. own the competition.
It's not news to those of us who regularly read these forums but a lot of employed physicians are not aware of how much their employers can bill and collect off their backs, then nearly skim all of it for themselves. Meanwhile the public constantly complains physicians make too much. 2 slaps in the face.
 
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Come work with me, or Bob Barker, or my friend in Southern Oklahoma, or my friend in Nebraska, or my friend just outside of Fort Worth all who are independent private practice folks, and are doing just fine financially. This whole idea that it is financially unsustainable to be in private practice is nonsense, at least in the pain management space anyway. I can’t speak to other specialties like orthopedic surgery. However, I will admit that I agree completely with everything else Orthopedic Surgeon said. I think pain management is just unique in that we can do in office procedures which still generate enough of a fee to the doctor that it can be sustainable.
I’m actually from the Midwest and agree completely. I could probably do well in private practice in the Midwest, provided I could find someone to give me a fair contract. I’ve interviewed with plenty of private guys whose contracts were anything but fair, for the employed physician

Currently in a major metro area that’s pretty much controlled by 2 hospital systems and two huge ortho/spine practices. If you’re not employed by one of those 4 entities you’re gonna have difficulty

I can work really hard and know the ins and outs of billing and coding. I just have no real business knowledge or experience. My hats off to you guys that do both.
 
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yet in every financial enterprise in our (capitalist) system, there is the preponderance of moving inexorably from small businesses towards large corporations - a natural effect of capitalism.

the small gas stations of yesteryear are all gone.

the local restaurants slowly replaced by the olive gardens.

the small individual supermarkets taken over by chains. even my beloved Wegmans used to be a few local stores and is now a multistate business.

the independent pharmacies.

theres no inherent reason that private practice doctors offices would be immune to this.
 
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yet in every financial enterprise in our (capitalist) system, there is the preponderance of moving inexorably from small businesses towards large corporations - a natural effect of capitalism.

the small gas stations of yesteryear are all gone.

the local restaurants slowly replaced by the olive gardens.

the small individual supermarkets taken over by chains. even my beloved Wegmans used to be a few local stores and is now a multistate business.

the independent pharmacies.

theres no inherent reason that private practice doctors offices would be immune to this.
You’re blaming capitalism when you should be blaming the government. Again your judgment is clouded by your own inherent far left leaning biases

It’s not a pure capitalistic system when our government gives unfair advantages and monetary incentives to certain corporations and entities. Our hospital system is a perfect example. It’s directly bc of government mandates that hospitals were able to start gobbling up independent physician practices and in essence crush competition.
 
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true to a point. i will agree that our current capitalist system is not pure capitalism.


i would counter, however, that a pure capitalist system could be worse for the little guy. look historically at situations prior to the 1900s where there was less government interference and at the steel, oil and rail industries.
 
true to a point. i will agree that our current capitalist system is not pure capitalism.


i would counter, however, that a pure capitalist system could be worse for the little guy. look historically at situations prior to the 1900s where there was less government interference and at the steel, oil and rail industries.
I wish I were a Carnegie or Rockefeller
 
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This is why private docs wanna jump on the PE bandwagon, get the money initially, tell themselves that they will invest it and then slum it out under the PE regime until they can call it quits
 
Medicare and comm ins barely pay for healthcare services as it is. You take away the facility fee and whats left? Nothing.
 
so, your examples are all quite rural.

The only ones of those that might be rural is the Nebraska one or Southern OK. Ft Worth is definitely not rural. And smack in the middle of a 1.5 million metro is not rural either.
 
yet in every financial enterprise in our (capitalist) system, there is the preponderance of moving inexorably from small businesses towards large corporations - a natural effect of capitalism.

the small gas stations of yesteryear are all gone.

the local restaurants slowly replaced by the olive gardens.

the small individual supermarkets taken over by chains. even my beloved Wegmans used to be a few local stores and is now a multistate business.

the independent pharmacies.

theres no inherent reason that private practice doctors offices would be immune to this.
...and look how boring america is becoming. Destroy nature and put in the same flora and fauna, cookie cutter homes, and strip malls with the same retail outlets over and over again. Gross. Zoning regulations exacerbate this.

Why do tourists love visiting the old historic parts of towns? They have character and individual flair. People built beautiful towns and cities before the current system.

BTW, my goal is to start one of these cookie cutter retail shops in the boring cookie cutter strip malls for the cookie cutter people living in the cookie cutter housing developments across the country, lol
 
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The only ones of those that might be rural is the Nebraska one or Southern OK. Ft Worth is definitely not rural. And smack in the middle of a 1.5 million metro is not rural either.
"outside of ft. worth"

that implies that it is not on the dallas side. i guess it depends, but it could be rural
 
"outside of ft. worth"

that implies that it is not on the dallas side. i guess it depends, but it could be rural
DFW is getting to be like houston. You can go in an hour any direction around either city (maybe not west of FW) and be in a pretty built up area
 
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um... hospital facility fees have been in place for decades.

drusso has been posting about them for as long as i can remember.

how is this news?



and fwiw, facility fees and hospital consolidating private practices is the price of capitalism. acquisition, consolidation, controlling market share, etc. own the competition.
The problem isn’t the facility fees by itself.

The problem is this chart with respect to facility fees:

1711554611379.jpeg
 
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...and look how boring america is becoming. Destroy nature and put in the same flora and fauna, cookie cutter homes, and strip malls with the same retail outlets over and over again. Gross. Zoning regulations exacerbate this.

Why do tourists love visiting the old historic parts of towns? They have character and individual flair. People built beautiful towns and cities before the current system.

BTW, my goal is to start one of these cookie cutter retail shops in the boring cookie cutter strip malls for the cookie cutter people living in the cookie cutter housing developments across the country, lol


 
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yet in every financial enterprise in our (capitalist) system, there is the preponderance of moving inexorably from small businesses towards large corporations - a natural effect of capitalism.

the small gas stations of yesteryear are all gone.

the local restaurants slowly replaced by the olive gardens.

the small individual supermarkets taken over by chains. even my beloved Wegmans used to be a few local stores and is now a multistate business.

the independent pharmacies.

theres no inherent reason that private practice doctors offices would be immune to this.

No one wants to get their prostate exam at Walmart or the Post Office.
 
The orthopedic surgeon has the crippling 90 day global. There is nothing worse than not getting paid for a cervical mbb/rfa because you did a $400 vertiflex 60 days prior and forgot to use the appropriate modifiers. I’m sure the same thing happens to them when they fix one joint and then move onto carpal tunnel or an arthroscopy. But this issue affects the majority of their patients, not one or two a month like us.

As @gdub25 said, you can still be very successful in private practice pain. You just have to know how and why you get paid and remain vigilant. I caught over $1500 in coding mistakes this weekend.

To be successful in private practice pain, you have to have at least average skills, intelligence, above average for doctors personality (I’m average for normal people personality, but a fair bit above average compared to other doctors), but a really strong work ethic. The doctor part for me is easy, the business of medicine and dealing with staff/billing/collections is the hard part. It can be really hard and stressful. So what I encounter and gdub encounters as well, is finding the right person to join the team but that understands the business isn’t for sale or they are never going to be partner unless they are willing to show over a period of years that they are willing to the dirty work to make the business run. No one understands how much work that is until they do it.
This is soo well written and true. Any of you going to pp read this
 
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