Hourly Pay of Health Professions (Physicians/Dentists)

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dentalman09

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Edited

What is the median hourly rate for each profession/specialty?


Answer: (based on help from others/websites)

1. OMFS 336/36 = $179.5/hr
2. Endodontist 303.9/36 = $162.4/hr
3. Pedodontiac Dentist 294.4/36 = $157.1/hr
4. Orthodontist 279.4/36 = $149.0/hr
5. Orthopedic Surgeon 335.8/54.1 = $119.4/hr

6. Periodontist 216.4/36 = $115.4/hr
7. Pathologist 246.5/41.6 = $114.0/hr
8. Rad (Diag)/Rad Onc 327.7/58.5 = $107.7/hr
9. Prosthodontist 190.9/36 = $102.0/hr
10. Opthalomologist 229.2/43.7 = $100.9/hr

11. Dermatologist 219.5/42 = $100.5/hr
12. General Dentists 173.1/36 = $92.4/hr
13. Neurosurg/plastics Surgeon 275.2/59.6 = $88.8/hr
14. Urologist 264.5/57.4 = $88.6/hr
15. Surgeon (gen) 263.7/58.2 = $87.1/hr

16. Anesthesiologist 244.7/58.7 = $80.2/hr
17. ENT 214.5/52.1 = $79.2/hr
18. OB/GYN 227/55.7 = $78.4/hr
19. EM 197.1/50 = $75.8/hr
20. Neurologist 183.1/53.7 = $65.6/hr

21. Psychiatrist 145.7/44 = $63.7/hr
22. IM 164.1/55.6 = $56.8/hr
23. FP 146.5/50.7 = $55.6/hr
24. Pediatrician 137.8/49.4 = $53.6/hr

http://www.ada.org/ada/prod/survey/publications_newreports.asp#income
Survey of Dental Practice. c. 2003 Edition, American Dental Association

http://medicine.wustl.edu/~residenc...pec/byspec.html
Physician Socioeconomic Statistics. c. 2003 Edition, American Medical Association

**I am not sure if the hours of the OMFS and Rad Onc are accurate. I believe they should be higher and lower, respectively.
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dentalman09 said:
What is the median hourly rate for each profession/specialty?


The average income of a general dentist is $183,000, while a specialists is near $273,000 (~32-40 hours). I can believe that a dermatologist and ophthalmologist having similar work schedules to their dental counterparts, however, it is difficult to see that with the other medical specialities. I once read that pediatricians, internists, and family practitioners earn similar salaries to dentist but work 55-65 hours a week. Is that true? Also, I keep on reading/hearing that surgeons make "bank" ($400,000-$900,000), but don't they work near 70-80 hours a week?

Just curious...
Click to expand...

To each their own. If you think that $$$/hr is the most important thing, give yourself a pat on the back. You picked the right field.

Yes, surgeons bust their asses and they make much less than they used to, but they love what they do. Despite the fact that some specialties work really hard, possibly for less per hour than what YOU make, they are still doing what THEY LOVE.

-Hans

PS I don't know of any surgeons who jump ship to do dentistry. But every year there are dentists that become surgeons. They do 6 years of residency and end up making the same as- or or less per hour than a general dentist. But they are doing what they love.
 
hans19 said:
PS I don't know of any surgeons who jump ship to do dentistry. But every year there are dentists that become surgeons. They do 6 years of residency and end up making the same as- or or less per hour than a general dentist. But they are doing what they love.
Click to expand...

Yeah, ORAL surgeons, which is a dental specialty (you have to be a dentist to be an oral surgeon). Those guys aren't jumping ship anywhere, they're merely extending their education. And they make FAR more than an average general dentist (to the tune of $200k+ more).
 
ItsGavinC said:
Yeah, ORAL surgeons, which is a dental specialty (you have to be a dentist to be an oral surgeon). Those guys aren't jumping ship anywhere, they're merely extending their education. And they make FAR more than an average general dentist (to the tune of $200k+ more).
Click to expand...

Many (not all) OMFS residencies offer the MD degree. Which would make those OMFS guys also physicians. Yes, they make more than general dentists, but they also work more hours per week. Probably making the same per hour or slightly less per hour than a general dentist. Thats my point. Who cares? kudos to them - they are pursuing their passion.

-H
 
hans19 said:
Many (not all) OMFS residencies offer the MD degree. Which would make those OMFS guys also physicians. Yes, they make more than general dentists, but they also work more hours per week. Probably making the same per hour or slightly less per hour than a general dentist. Thats my point. Who cares? kudos to them - they are pursuing their passion.

-H
Click to expand...
Only 40% of the OMFS residencies in the US offer a medical degree. The MD is optional and generally doesn't add anything to the scope of surgery, and most of the ones I know don't even bother with a medical license because it adds nothing to their practice except another $400 a year to keep the license. Some programs put the MD at the beginning, and some put it at the end of the residency. Not many programs put it at the end anymore because people tend to quit...if you're already board-eligible in OMFS then why spend another 1+ years doing psych, ob/gyn, etc? It's not a bad deal to get an MD in 1 to 1.5 years, but that extra time is just lost income in the end.

Sorry, I'm starting to ramble....
 
GP, Dental Specialists, Dermatologists, EM and maybe Radiologists have the highest hourly pay rate ($180-$300 for ~40 hours/week). While other medical specialities such as plastic, ortho, neuro, cardiovascular surgery make "bank", they tend to work twice as many hours of the above lifestyle professions. If dentists decided to work 65-80 hour weeks, they would pull in similar figures. But as you tell, many of those of enter dentistry value their family and free time. I do not suggest choosing a career path based on hourly pay, as you will be extremely miserable if you do not have an interests.

Edit: I posted this in the dental forums already. opps
 
dentalman09 said:
What is the median hourly rate for each profession/specialty?

Dentist:
Dental Specialist (Endo, OMFS, Ortho, Peds..):
Emergency Medicine:
Internalist:
Family Practitioner:
Radiologist:
Ophthalmologist:
Anesteiologist:
Dermatologist:
Plastic Surgeon:
Orthopedic Surgeon:
Cardiologist:
Neurosurgeon:
Urologist:
Neurologist:
Pathologist:

The average income of a general dentist is $183,000, while a specialists is near $273,000 (~32-40 hours). I can believe that a dermatologist and ophthalmologist having similar work schedules to their dental counterparts, however, it is difficult to see that with the other medical specialities. I once read that pediatricians, internists, and family practitioners earn similar salaries to dentist but work 55-65 hours a week. Is that true? Also, I keep on reading/hearing that surgeons make "bank" ($400,000-$900,000), but don't they work near 70-80 hours a week?

Just curious...
Click to expand...

I'm already going the dental route, hence the username. I was just interested about the hourly wage if it is accurately listed somewhere. Like I said before, I always hear people say certain medical specialities income greatly surpass dentistry, but it's all relative to hours worked. Those who work in surgery or cardiology work long hours, often twice the hours (therefore twice the income of dental specialists).
 
There's no such thing as an hourly salary in medicine. There's also no such thing as getting paid overtime. You work the hours it takes to take care of your patients. If you want an hourly salary, think about factory work.
 
dentalman09 said:
What is the median hourly rate for each profession/specialty?

Dentist: $85-$105/hour
Dental Specialist (Endo, OMFS, Ortho, Peds..): $135-$160/hour
Emergency Medicine: $100-$150/hour
Internalist: $65-$75/hour
Family Practitioner: $65-$75/hour
Radiologist:
Ophthalmologist: $125-$145/hour
Anesteiologist:
Dermatologist: $135-$160/hour
Plastic Surgeon:
Orthopedic Surgeon:
Cardiologist: $110-$125/hour
Neurosurgeon:
Urologist:
Neurologist:
Pathologist:

i.e. These are based on 47 work weeks with dentists/specialists working 32-40 hours, PCP 50-65 hours, internal specialists 55-65 hours, surgical specialities 70-80 hours. Let me know if these are off...

The average income of a general dentist is $183,000, while a specialists is near $273,000 (~32-40 hours). I can believe that a dermatologist and ophthalmologist having similar work schedules to their dental counterparts, however, it is difficult to see that with the other medical specialities. I once read that pediatricians, internists, and family practitioners earn similar salaries to dentist but work 55-65 hours a week. Is that true? Also, I keep on reading/hearing that surgeons make "bank" ($400,000-$900,000), but don't they work near 70-80 hours a week, stress, malpractice, etc?

Just curious...
Click to expand...

do you have any sources for this data?
 
fourthyearmed said:
There's no such thing as an hourly salary in medicine. There's also no such thing as getting paid overtime. You work the hours it takes to take care of your patients. If you want an hourly salary, think about factory work.
Click to expand...

EP are paid based on hourly wage. I think the OP was trying to figure out the undocumented hourly wage of physicians/dentists based on average pay vs. average hours worked.

Like I said earlier...EP, dentists, dental specialists, derm, radio, and optho seem to have good hourly wages, given that they make $180-$300K on a 40 hour work week. Other medical specialities make plenty of money, but their hours are much higher. If the OP is looking for the best buck for the time spent working, look at the careers I listed above. However, I wouldn't suggest that...
 
I think this depends upon where your practice is located. My husband is a solo practioner general dentist who has been in practice 29 years in N. CA. Since he is a solo practioner, his gross must cover his employees salaries & retirement, rent, other overhead (utilities, malpractice, etc) in addition to what he brings home as his income. Soooooo..his practice income is much, much higher than what is on your list. It is also higher now because most of his equipment has been paid off (the most recent being a $65,000 digital x-ray), however, when we were younger, most of that "apparent" income really went to paying off equipment loans. When he retires, since this is still his equipment, it will be sold, altho at a depreciated rate, but the IRS still views it as income. So...these numbers are not easily transferrable between dentistry & medicine because physicians do not own so much equipment. Also, his reimbursments for crowns and other work are higher than those folks who practice in less expensive areas - so what a dentist makes in Iowa may not be comparable to here - but our style of lives probably are. Finally....my husband has not ever worked 40 hours a week (unless he has had a string of after hours emergencies) - and none of our dentist friends work 40 hours either!
 
dentalman09 said:
Edited

What is the median hourly rate for each profession/specialty?


Answer: (based on help from others/websites)

1. OMFS 336/36 = $179.5/hr
2. Endodontist 303.9/36 = $162.4/hr
3. Pedodontiac Dentist 294.4/36 = $157.1/hr
4. Orthodontist 279.4/36 = $149.0/hr
5. Orthopedic Surgeon 335.8/54.1 = $119.4/hr

6. Periodontist 216.4/36 = $115.4/hr
7. Pathologist 246.5/41.6 = $114.0/hr
8. Rad (Diag)/Rad Onc 327.7/58.5 = $107.7/hr
9. Prosthodontist 190.9/36 = $102.0/hr
10. Opthalomogist 229.2/43.7 = $100.9/hr

11. Dermatologist 219.5/42 = $100.5/hr
12. General Dentists 173.1/36 = $92.4/hr
13. Neurosurg/plastics Surgeon 275.2/59.6 = $88.8/hr
14. Urologist 264.5/57.4 = $88.6/hr
15. Surgeon (gen) 263.7/58.2 = $87.1/hr

16. Anesthesiologist 244.7/58.7 = $80.2/hr
17. ENT 214.5/52.1 = $79.2/hr
18. OB/GYN 227/55.7 = $78.4/hr
19. EM 197.1/50 = $75.8/hr
20. Neurologist 183.1/53.7 = $65.6/hr

21. Psychiatrist 145.7/44 = $63.7/hr
22. IM 164.1/55.6 = $56.8/hr
23. FP 146.5/50.7 = $55.6/hr
24. Pediatrician 137.8/49.4 = $53.6/hr

http://www.ada.org/ada/prod/survey/...orts.asp#income
Survey of Dental Practice. c. 2003 Edition, American Dental Association

http://medicine.wustl.edu/~residenc...pec/byspec.html
Physician Socioeconomic Statistics. c. 2003 Edition, American Medical Association
Click to expand...

Those average numbers are meaningless as they tend to poll academic types/residents/fellows as well....As a % of the total, med academics are a FAR greater share of the pie than dental academic types.

Im not saying OMFS isnt sweet, it is, but if you think you will be pulling down more than rads/rad onc/ortho spine even on a per hour basis, you are simply lost. I can tell you I rate no3+ on your list (pathology) and that is my prepartner salary. In closing, with convinction I will state there are in fact MDs working 20-25hrs or less a week and making over 400K/year, in fact I plan to become one.

Here is a pearl: While a DDS will inflate their income due to pride issues, MDs lay very low, especially the big earners, often taking 100s off their salary when doing surveys. Ive actually seen some MDs go so far as to have a beater car and old suit they use to throw people off the track. I was in a LA med society and these old farts would pull up in a beater 10 year old honda and retro dress shirts to a conference, then I would see em the next day in Malibu in a convertible Porsche! Hilarious.
 
fourthyearmed said:
There's no such thing as an hourly salary in medicine. There's also no such thing as getting paid overtime. You work the hours it takes to take care of your patients. If you want an hourly salary, think about factory work.
Click to expand...

You are absolutely wrong. Yes there is an hourly salary in medicine, in fact some of the legendary epic earners in LA were per hour county employees that milked the system. Do a search on radiology+Martin Luther King hospital on the LA times. Im sure someone interested in rads has a link to that article. The guy was a per hour contractor and made 1.5mil/year.
 
LADoc00 said:
Those average numbers are meaningless as they tend to poll academic types/residents/fellows as well....As a % of the total, med academics are a FAR greater share of the pie than dental academic types.

Im not saying OMFS isnt sweet, it is, but if you think you will be pulling down more than rads/rad onc/ortho spine even on a per hour basis, you are simply lost. I can tell you I rate no3+ on your list (pathology) and that is my prepartner salary.
Click to expand...

I couldn't agree with you regarding rad, rad onc, ortho spine...heck I'll even throw in plastics and opthal retina. 20-25 hours a week and 400K+ is reasonable, but not the norm. That can be said with OMFS, ortho, endo, etc. Those guys can open a practice and rake in high 6 figures, even 7 figures if they have multiple practice---however, they are not the norm. I think the OP was trying to list was the "average" salary. Do you really think every MD is going to be working 20-25 works and making almost half a mil? Only those with great business savvy will be able to pull that off, same with DDS. DDS/DMD/MD/DO are going to be wealthy...so we just need to get over the money thing.

LADoc00 said:
In closing, with convinction I will state there are in fact MDs working 20-25hrs or less a week and making over 400K/year, in fact I plan to become one.
Click to expand...

Not to seem rude, but why you subject yourself through 7-10 years of schooling to just work 20-25 hours a week, when the majority of your colleagues work much more than that? If medicine is your passion and calling, wouldn't work at least 40-50 hours, or are you doing it for the $$$? I can say I plan to work around 32 hours (4 days) a week, but as you know most dentist work about 35 hours. Just curious.

LADoc00 said:
Here is a pearl: While a DDS will inflate their income due to pride issues, MDs lay very low, especially the big earners, often taking 100s off their salary when doing surveys. Ive actually seen some MDs go so far as to have a beater car and old suit they use to throw people off the track. I was in a LA med society and these old farts would pull up in a beater 10 year old honda and retro dress shirts to a conference, then I would see em the next day in Malibu in a convertible Porsche! Hilarious.
Click to expand...

I've seen that with Orthos and Endos in the Palo Alto Area. Heck, thats what my mentor did in September at the CDA San Francisco. Gotta love velvet and an old suburu.

Peace.
 
Nice pissing contest thread. Im amused you guys come over here and throw phat numbers around like you actually make that. What is the point? I can produce salary numbers for the MD fields that average 3x the numbers you have, if this is a "respect us because we make phat bank" type thing, it aint workin for me.
 
2005 AMGA MID-LEVEL COMPENSATION
Mid-Level Provider Specialty All Eastern Western Southern Northern
Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetist $130,567 $133,016 $130,000 **** $130,698
Dentistry $139,299 $145,710 **** **** $136,805
Midwife $85,353 $82,727 86,520 **** $83,438
Nurse Practitioner $74,736 $80,200 $71,102 $81,474 $73,840
Occupational Therapist $53,527 **** **** **** $51,817
Optometrist $105,553 $95,181 $108,773 $104,080 $112,501
Physical Therapist $60,536 $57,431 $69,909 **** $59,892
Physician Assistant (Medical) $75,664 $68,806 $82,027 $73,684 $76,590
Physician Assistant (Surgical) $85,805 $80,200 $93,308 $80,000 $85,765
Podiatrist (Medical) $162,410 **** $186,238 $168,332 $160,684
Podiatrist (Surgical) $181,785 $194,727 $177,887 $170,118 $200,083
Psychology (Ph.D.s Only) $89,250 $83,041 $107,000 $96,854 $88,000

The 2005 AMGA Medical Group Compensation and Financial Survey is a nationally recognized compensation survey designed to assist various management levels in evaluating and comparing current physician compensation an productivity levels, trends, and relationships between compensation and productivity. The report and its data can assist in making compensation-related decisions for a medical group’s physicians, non-physician medical staff, and select administrative positions. This report can also be used in various ways to identify trends and measure a medical group’s own compensation and productivity as compared to other medical groups throughout the nation. We believe the data is representative of large multi-specialty group practices.

I see that Dentists make near the same salaries as CRNA's. I don't see what your point is. Are you trying to point out that dentistry is the way to go for making the big bucks? Please tell us who you are because the last thing I need is to go to a dentist who creates jobs for himself to earn money. I don't understand why you deem it necessary to post on a medical forum about hourly salaries between physicians and dentists. There are not any comparisons. Physicians don't work by the hour. They work by how well they take care of their patients. If physicians can't finish their job in the allotted time, they still have to continue until they do finish. I don't care if you are a surgeon or family practitioner or whatever physician. Physicians are not plumbers, car mechanics, or dentists. We deal with human lives, not just mouths, and don't work by the clock. May be psychotherapy is done by the clock but I cannot figure what else is done by the clock as a physician. I just hope that you are not going into dentistry for the money. You could do alot better by studying the stock market or going into business than making big bucks as a dentist.

psychedoc2b

BTW, I can see that FP's make higher yearly salary than dentists.

You can find this chart at http://www.cejka.com

2005 AMGA PHYSICIAN COMPENSATION SURVEY
Specialty All Physicians Starting Eastern Western Southern Northern
Allergy and Immunology $207,278 $154,080 $193,480 $210,802 $204,870 $206,241
Anesthesiology $315,300 $250,000 $275,000 $298,000 $334,200 $334,033
Cardiac & Thoracic Surgery $421,620 $310,000 $387,298 $343,050 $421,240 $469,860
Cardiology $336,000 $280,000 $264,900 $343,646 $386,957 $369,566
Colon & Rectal Surgery $327,927 **** $300,000 **** **** $350,798
Critical Care Medicine $228,740 **** $220,235 **** $227,242 $228,740
Dermatology $274,014 $200,000 $225,000 $289,409 $322,138 $263,201
Diagnostic Radiology - Interventional $410,250 $320,000 $345,860 $410,000 $537,942 $410,250
Diagnostic Radiology - Non-Interventional $364,899 $257,367 $330,000 $350,224 $383,319 $383,256
Emergency Care $230,930 $175,500 $200,327 $228,814 $225,905 $239,984
Endocrinology $185,000 $140,000 $166,675 $185,000 $177,665 $201,241
Family Medicine $164,209 $120,000 $141,225 $166,750 $163,417 $168,488
Family Medicine - with Obstetrics $163,334 $125,000 $140,643 $162,352 $161,421 $167,222
Gastroenterology $308,246 $250,000 $263,594 $325,698 $325,033 $306,994
General Surgery $294,000 $200,000 $250,028 $275,336 $301,761 $330,903
Geriatrics $159,492 **** $150,000 **** $158,400 $170,278
Gynecological Oncology $334,009 **** $290,795 $345,355 **** $347,005
Gynecology $217,283 **** $220,794 **** $224,420 $217,256
Gynecology & Obstetrics $250,196 $180,000 $232,276 $240,118 $258,756 $275,419
Hematology & Medical Oncology $255,007 $200,000 $207,300 $261,004 $293,043 $255,007
Hospitalist $171,991 $150,000 $153,515 $175,084 $183,775 $171,913
Hypertension & Nephrology $214,751 $165,000 $186,683 $238,750 $253,228 $214,751
Infectious Disease $185,920 $140,111 $161,206 $179,402 $175,000 $203,640
Intensivist $231,111 **** **** $230,391 **** ****
Internal Medicine $169,569 $120,000 $158,824 $171,246 $167,740 $170,511
Neonatology $229,486 $165,000 $242,492 $222,750 $223,312 $232,738
Neurological Surgery $465,006 $400,000 $352,352 $495,266 $553,500 $465,006
Neurology $201,241 $151,960 $180,882 $199,614 $204,000 $201,241
Nuclear Medicine (M.D. only) $268,450 **** **** $277,193 **** $267,500
Obstetrics $240,165 **** **** $228,813 $280,145 $232,180
Occupational/Environmental Medicine $181,716 $140,000 $157,611 $182,159 $173,541 $187,470
Ophthalmology $264,422 $177,500 $232,863 $254,743 $276,280 $304,994
Oral Surgery $308,320 **** **** **** $283,476 $320,007
Orthopedic Surgery $381,429 $250,000 $336,163 $374,942 $390,270 $393,249
Orthopedic-Medical $252,803 **** $326,938 $250,650 **** $219,502
Orthopedic Surgery - Joint Replacement $450,000 **** **** $456,912 **** $449,839
Orthopedic Surgery - Hand $389,997 **** $335,000 $378,000 **** $393,497
Orthopedic Surg.-Pediatrics $389,997 **** **** **** **** $389,999
Orthopedic Surgery - Spine $518,937 **** **** $574,345 **** $433,658
Otolaryngology $303,000 $210,000 $250,390 $282,966 $303,011 $320,007
Pathology (M.D. only) $250,000 **** $245,422 $247,764 $252,000 $268,500
Pediatric Allergy $186,523 **** **** **** **** $186,523
Pediatric Cardiology $219,992 **** **** **** **** $221,492
Pediatric Endocrinology $169,958 **** **** **** **** $168,000
Pediatric Gastroenterology $193,193 **** **** **** **** $190,345
Pediatric Hematology/Oncology $195,249 **** **** $193,387 $198,940 $196,897
Pediatric Intensive Care $200,000 **** **** **** $200,000 $200,000
Pediatric Nephrology **** **** **** **** **** ****
Pediatric Neurology $185,212 **** **** **** **** $192,528
Pediatric Pulmonary Disease $158,429 **** **** **** **** ****
Pediatric Surgery $326,399 **** **** **** **** $354,871
Pediatrics & Adolescent $169,267 $115,000 $155,916 $168,301 $191,511 $168,609
Pediatric Infectious Disease $173,993 **** **** **** **** $173,993
Perinatology $341,922 **** $246,597 $336,537 **** $399,360
Physical Medicine & Rehabilitation $193,468 $145,000 **** $183,362 $204,775 $201,993
Plastic & Reconstruction $328,764 $220,020 $273,000 $344,059 $344,998 $353,983
Psychiatry $177,000 $135,000 $155,673 $197,021 $168,160 $177,000
Psychiatry - Child $192,416 **** **** $220,055 **** $183,621
Pulmonary Disease $222,000 $163,626 $199,831 $249,865 $225,400 $228,359
Radiation Therapy (M.D. only) $334,171 **** $285,940 $343,844 $328,350 $368,240
Reproductive Endocrinology $263,568 **** **** **** **** ****
Rheumatologic Disease $188,260 $150,000 $153,000 $192,026 $181,525 $193,301
Sports Medicine $193,573 **** **** **** **** ****
Surgical Pathology (M.D. only) $ $ **** **** **** ****
Surgical Sports Medicine $391,497 **** $485,670 $459,592 **** $389,997
Transplant Surgery - Kidney $345,000 **** **** **** **** $379,995
Transplant Surgery - Liver $349,788 **** **** **** **** $379,995
Trauma Surgery $312,272 **** $265,457 **** $310,385 $352,352
Urgent Care $176,353 $125,500 $179,300 $179,357 $180,395 $173,683
Urology $324,690 $219,229 $270,493 $302,600 $351,585 $358,008
Vascular Surgery $335,642 $221,500 $297,636 $318,388 $337,762 $350,000

The 2005 AMGA Medical Group Compensation and Financial Survey is a nationally recognized compensation survey designed to assist various management levels in evaluating and comparing current physician compensation an productivity levels, trends, and relationships between compensation and productivity. The report and its data can assist in making compensation-related decisions for a medical group’s physicians, non-physician medical staff, and select administrative positions. This report can also be used in various ways to identify trends and measure a medical group’s own compensation and productivity as compared to other medical groups throughout the nation. We believe the data is representative of large multi-specialty group practices.

To order the full report, please contact the American Medical Group Association at 703-838-0033
 
LADoc00 said:
Nice pissing contest thread. Im amused you guys come over here and throw phat numbers around like you actually make that. What is the point? I can produce salary numbers for the MD fields that average 3x the numbers you have, if this is a "respect us because we make phat bank" type thing, it aint workin for me.
Click to expand...


No pissing contest intended at all. I respect both professions to the fullest. My thread started out asking the forum if they knew what the unofficial "hourly wages" were to both professions. I know that dentists/physicians don't work based on hours. My top post has been edited, from my original question, to list what many people have told me and my calculations from AMA and ADA. I just got sick of people bashing on dentistry, saying that they make squat by looking at AMGA/salary.com websites claiming that dentists earn less than $120k. This is not true. The websites out there, besides the surveys offered by ADA, are salaried positions such as associates. Over 90%+ dentists are small business owners, therefore their salaries fluxuate depending on their business skills. The majority of medical specialities make huge salaries $350K+ a year, however it must be taken into consideration that they are working long, dedicated hours to patients. I'm just showing that dentist make just as much money on an hourly basis--but if you look at total net income, dentists usually don't come close to plastics, spine, retina, etc. No pissing contest here.

There has never been published data of what I have calculated. I'm not too sure I believe AMA/ADA but that is what I can get my hands on as a student. I find the calculations to be interesting for some people. Maybe not for you. However, people should not choose a career based on hourly wages or income because that would be a terrible mistake.
 
psychedoc2b said:
The 2005 AMGA Medical Group Compensation and Financial Survey is a nationally recognized compensation survey designed to assist various management levels in evaluating and comparing current physician compensation an productivity levels, trends, and relationships between compensation and productivity. The report and its data can assist in making compensation-related decisions for a medical group’s physicians, non-physician medical staff, and select administrative positions. This report can also be used in various ways to identify trends and measure a medical group’s own compensation and productivity as compared to other medical groups throughout the nation. We believe the data is representative of large multi-specialty group practices.

To order the full report, please contact the American Medical Group Association at 703-838-0033
Click to expand...


No faith in the data given by your professional organization?
http://medicine.wustl.edu/~residenc...pec/byspec.html
Physician Socioeconomic Statistics. c. 2003 Edition, American Medical Association

We all know that physicians as a whole make more than dentist, but you also work 20-40 hours more a week. You guys get all the chicks, prestige "I'm a MD", "I save lives and deliver babies". You can have it, its not a profession for me. This is just a study on "hourly wages". As my old friend Bart Simpson once said, "Don't have a cow, man!"
 
This discussion is pointless and an obvious dental ninja (or not so ninja) troll.

How can this discussion have any real outcome?
Oh I know...A 10pm throw down rumble on Sat. at the Villa Taqueria in East Palo Alto sound good to everyone?? DDS vs MDs. :laugh:
 
dentalman09 said:
No faith in the data given by your professional organization?
http://medicine.wustl.edu/~residenc...pec/byspec.html
Physician Socioeconomic Statistics. c. 2003 Edition, American Medical Association

We all know that physicians as a whole make more than dentist, but you also work 20-40 hours more a week. You guys get all the chicks, prestige "I'm a MD", "I save lives and deliver babies". You can have it, its not a profession for me. This is just a study on "hourly wages". As my old friend Bart Simpson once said, "Don't have a cow, man!"
Click to expand...

I am becoming a psychiatrist and plan to only work a 40-50 hour week. I plan to have a private practice, work for some public institution or community mental health center, and do some teaching. I did not go into medicine to earn big bucks and probably will never earn big bucks. I want a family too and think at this point that having a family is just as important as having a career. I am not going to kill myself to earn more money when I can spend time with my family. I am not into the prestige because if I was I would focus on going to a highly regarded academic-affilated residency. There are others like me in medical school. I admit there are those who entered medicine for the money but I believe they will be sorely disappointed as time goes by since the training is grueling and, as you say, the daily work is longer for some of the higher paying specialties. I say hurrah for you that you found your calling in life. I'm sure if you wanted to become a physician you would have done so. I think dentistry is a necessity for good health. I don't deny this. But, again, you should not compare the salaries of dentists to physicians because if you read the chart I posted, podiatrists are earning more than dentists and some doctors. Podiatrists are necessity too but as of yet, I have not needed one. But, I have gone to a dentist and physician for health check-ups. There is a role for all of us in society. There is no need to flame doctors or dentists or podiatrists for this matter, and say that one earns more than the other. In the end, all that matters is that you are HAPPY with your decision to become a dentist. If the big bucks roll in, that is great. I hope that you will always have satisfaction in your career choice and not try to compare it to other health professions.

psychedoc2b
 
psychedoc2b said:
I am becoming a psychiatrist and plan to only work a 40-50 hour week. I plan to have a private practice, work for some public institution or community mental health center, and do some teaching. I did not go into medicine to earn big bucks and probably will never earn big bucks. I want a family too and think at this point that having a family is just as important as having a career. I am not going to kill myself to earn more money when I can spend time with my family. I am not into the prestige because if I was I would focus on going to a highly regarded academic-affilated residency. There are others like me in medical school. I admit there are those who entered medicine for the money but I believe they will be sorely disappointed as time goes by since the training is grueling and, as you say, the daily work is longer for some of the higher paying specialties. I say hurrah for you that you found your calling in life. I'm sure if you wanted to become a physician you would have done so. I think dentistry is a necessity for good health. I don't deny this. But, again, you should not compare the salaries of dentists to physicians because if you read the chart I posted, podiatrists are earning more than dentists and some doctors. Podiatrists are necessity too but as of yet, I have not needed one. But, I have gone to a dentist and physician for health check-ups. There is a role for all of us in society. There is no need to flame doctors or dentists or podiatrists for this matter, and say that one earns more than the other. In the end, all that matters is that you are HAPPY with your decision to become a dentist. If the big bucks roll in, that is great. I hope that you will always have satisfaction in your career choice and not try to compare it to other health professions.

psychedoc2b
Click to expand...

well said. I did not mean to cause any ill-words between our professions...just curious about the statistics. Good luck you and your career.
 
psychedoc2b said:
...Physicians are not plumbers, car mechanics, or dentists. We deal with human lives, not just mouths, and don't work by the clock.
Click to expand...
I think it's funny when MDs say "we save lives" while probably less than 5% of physicians are involved in "life-threatening" care.
 
toofache32 said:
I think it's funny when MDs say "we save lives" while probably less than 5% of physicians are involved in "life-threatening" care.
Click to expand...

Is 5% an arbitrary number? I think it is funny you come over here to the med forums and post your opinions, whereas most med students and physicians don't give a hoot about posting in the dental forums. If you have a bone to pick, pick one of your own.

psychedoc2b
 
toofache32 said:
I think it's funny when MDs say "we save lives" while probably less than 5% of physicians are involved in "life-threatening" care.
Click to expand...

Just to point out that "even" FP docs prevent CV disease, manage diabetes, etc, something that is proven to save lives. "Even" dermatologists treat/remove melanoma. I saw a pediatric physician catch and treat a meningococcemia last week by noticing a few small petichiae on the kids leg. The antibiotics he gave the kid immediately, by all accounts, saved his life.

So, even if most docs do not stop massive bleeding, cut out a diseased organ, intubate, or get sung as heroes by everyone, does not mean that in the long run, they do not save lives...
 
Speaking as a practitioner in a field that is paid hourly, I believe that the numbers posted above are very askew. There is no possible way that an Anesthesiologist earns less than a general dentist. I encourage the OP to check his/her sources and provide better data to avoid misinforming the public. BTW - to state as a dentist that OMFS is the highest hourly paid field and post this "Fact" on a medical forum, is suggesting trollish undertones.

Oh, to the other poster - I am one of "those" physicians who really does save lives, and I wouldn't call what I provide "life threatening care." Dentists may provide "life threatening care" to their patients (as I have seen and been consulted for within my ED), and I often must in turn dispense "life-saving care."
 
a_ditchdoc said:
Just to point out that "even" FP docs prevent CV disease, manage diabetes, etc, something that is proven to save lives. "Even" dermatologists treat/remove melanoma. I saw a pediatric physician catch and treat a meningococcemia last week by noticing a few small petichiae on the kids leg. The antibiotics he gave the kid immediately, by all accounts, saved his life.

So, even if most docs do not stop massive bleeding, cut out a diseased organ, intubate, or get sung as heroes by everyone, does not mean that in the long run, they do not save lives...
Click to expand...
...and dentists prevent Ludwig's Angina and Odontogenic Nec Fasc every day by preventing oral infections. You know damn well what I meant by "saving lives". If you put it in your perspective, we all save lives but not everyone waits until the last minute.
 
NinerNiner999 said:
Speaking as a practitioner in a field that is paid hourly, I believe that the numbers posted above are very askew. There is no possible way that an Anesthesiologist earns less than a general dentist. I encourage the OP to check his/her sources and provide better data to avoid misinforming the public. BTW - to state as a dentist that OMFS is the highest hourly paid field and post this "Fact" on a medical forum, is suggesting trollish undertones.

Oh, to the other poster - I am one of "those" physicians who really does save lives, and I wouldn't call what I provide "life threatening care." Dentists may provide "life threatening care" to their patients (as I have seen and been consulted for within my ED), and I often must in turn dispense "life-saving care."
Click to expand...


My sources are from the AMA and ADA, which seem like the most reliable data from a professional organization. I am not surprised that the data maybe off when compared to a personal basis. I have heard of anesthesiologist making $150-$200/hour. However, most anesthesiologists work 55-65 hours a week(as shown in the AMA data). I've seen positions at out patient clinics paying $400K for 40 hours, but that is not the norm. I've heard of oral surgeons and endos making $600K and $400K, respectively, but those guys are not the norm. I'm sure there are plastics and spine orthos that pull in $800K a year, but those guys are mostly partners and have been practicing 20-25 years already. Just look at my sources and my method of calculations. I always thought the wages on AMA were off, but I have trouble using other websites when AMA seems to be the most professional and less likely to lie. If you took the retina opthal, spine ortho, beverly hills plastic, then it will be different---but that is also on the extreme end, not everyone gets to be in their shoes.


Anesthesiologist $244.7/58.7 = $80.2/hr
General Dentist: $173K/36hrs = $92.4/hr

These are "averages", not the extremes.

If you don't agree with the hours, look at the AMA website.

No trolling here, at all. Don't you find the unexpected data interesting? This has never been posted elsewhere. In the end, most physicians will make a higher net income, but also work more hours. This is not a who makes more money--of course physicians usually make more...but one needs to look at the hours.

Good luck with everything everyone. I didn't mean to rattle any MDs.

PS: This article was what got me interested in finding the "hourly wages".
 
Thanks for making my point.. Somehow they left out a ton of the surgical specialties which make BANK.. Ortho Spine / NeuroSurg Spine/ Neurosurg/ Ct Surg. Tons of others as well.. Heck I could care less about this. Seems like a lot of sour grapes on this thread. Im very very happy about my career choice I have an idea on hours I will be expected to work and $$$. IMO too many medical specialties work way too many hours. You have to make time for family and for having a life.
 
they dont give enough details other than it is OVER 146K (i think) hence the "+"
 
Regardless of who gets paid more, who gets gets laid more?? The MD or the DDS? come on. we all know the answer. :meanie:
 
toofache32 said:
You know damn well what I meant by "saving lives".
Click to expand...


Well, actually, I didn't. As someone that "Saved lives" for a living, I have to say that my impact was small compared to what a civil engineer can do in a third world country by providing safe, clean, drinking water. However, cutting someone from a car, defibrillating someone back to life, or sticking a tube down someones throat seems much more "heroic" than giving someone an antibiotic, or preventing an MI. The end result is the same. A life is saved...

Anyway. I suppose you got my point.
 
Of interesting note, the return average for the major salary surveys is around 10%. The HHS salary surveys are based upon taxable income (Federal IRS numbers) and therefore lower than reality.
 
a_ditchdoc said:
Well, actually, I didn't. As someone that "Saved lives" for a living, I have to say that my impact was small compared to what a civil engineer can do in a third world country by providing safe, clean, drinking water. However, cutting someone from a car, defibrillating someone back to life, or sticking a tube down someones throat seems much more "heroic" than giving someone an antibiotic, or preventing an MI. The end result is the same. A life is saved...

Anyway. I suppose you got my point.
Click to expand...
Sounds good to me.

Re-reading my post I sounded like an a$$hole the way I put it. Sorry, I didn't mean to.
 
LADoc00 said:
Regardless of who gets paid more, who gets gets laid more?? The MD or the DDS? come on. we all know the answer. :meanie:
Click to expand...

Acutually, most md's and medical students are ugly and more socially inept than dentist/dental students. This could be largley due to the fact that they live their live studying and working all the time. Everyone I know in medical school is ugly as ****, but most of the dental students are fairly good looking so I would argue that MD's don't necessarily get laid more despite the additional prestige. This is just my personal experience, which could be wrong, but it makes sense to me too.
 
toofache32 said:
...and dentists prevent Ludwig's Angina and Odontogenic Nec Fasc every day by preventing oral infections. You know damn well what I meant by "saving lives". If you put it in your perspective, we all save lives but not everyone waits until the last minute.
Click to expand...

And once you get either of those, you're going to go see an MD.

In capitalism, your salary is directly proportional to the necessity of the service you provide as well as how irreplaceable you are. As OTC dental technology improves (Sonicare, whitening strips) along with new preventative methods, the different between a dentist and dental hygienist will become slimmer and slimmer and most people will be able to take care of their teeth with the great products already on the market.

To a degree you can do the same with your body (exercise, eat healthy, take vitamins)-- but none of that is going to prevent your bone from breaking in half or getting shot or getting cancer or an infection. And for these, among other problems, a DDS wont help you.

Right now the economic environment is in flux, with lots of rules and regulations blocking a free market adjustment of salaries... but even with downward price pressures physicians are making significantly more than dentists, and an increase of that difference is inevitable considering our capitalistic society.

Plus, all this talk doesnt take into account that you are actually helping people and working on the cutting edge on some of the most interesting problems in science. When's the last time you saw a TV show about dentists (ER, Scrubs, House, heck even the Bachelor is an MD) or saw a news report quoting whatever dental journal might exist (as opposed to NEJM and JAMA which are quoted multiple times every week)?
 
Fantasy Sports said:
And once you get either of those, you're going to go see an MD.
Click to expand...
....and the MD is going to call an oral surgeon.

Fantasy Sports said:
In capitalism, your salary is directly proportional to the necessity of the service you provide as well as how irreplaceable you are. As OTC dental technology improves (Sonicare, whitening strips) along with new preventative methods, the different between a dentist and dental hygienist will become slimmer and slimmer and most people will be able to take care of their teeth with the great products already on the market.
Click to expand...
A little off topic, but this is interesting. What new preventative methods are you talking about? And why would people use them when they don't even use the ones available currently such as a toothbrush and floss? A $3 toothbrush will put dentists out of business. Brushing is much easier than getting on a treadmill, stopping smoking, or cutting out high-cholesterol foods....and people still don't brush regularly. BTW, the Sonicare is for people with manual dexterity or mental problems who can't manipulate a toothbrush. It otherwise offers no decrease in caries/periodontal disease over a plain toothbrush. But marketing works.
 
Fantasy Sports said:
...To a degree you can do the same with your body (exercise, eat healthy, take vitamins)-- but none of that is going to prevent your bone from breaking in half or getting shot or getting cancer or an infection. And for these, among other problems, a DDS wont help you.
Click to expand...

I find this very funny because if any of those injuries happen to the head or neck, you would most likley be refered to an oral & maxillofacial surgeon, a DDS.
 
Man what a testy thread. IMO anyone providing any health service will be just fine.. Maybe in 200 years things will change but (for the dentists) we dont floss we dont brush our teeth we eat simple sugars, we drink regular (sugary cola). For the MDs we also sit on our couches eat fatty fried food and dont car about preventive medicine.

People will continue to need both DDSs and MDs.. worry not if you want you will be able to afford a nice house and car and if you have no game a trophy wife (husband) who wont love you but will love your money!
 
THP said:
In glancing at the allied physician's link, I found it strange that the starting salary for a FB (w/o OB) is greater than for those practicing 3+ years. Does anyone know why this is the case?
Click to expand...
Possibly some recruitment bonus to lure new docs.
 
If dentistry is so fantastic, why is the competition to get into the school so much less than medical school competition in terms of overall applicant gpa, scores, etc? The situation is actually so dire that dental schools are closing throughout the country while more medical schools are cropping up.

My husband is a dentist, and I could not do what he does, nor could he do what I do. The fields are incredibly different, so if we are going to compare hourly wages, why not add CEO's and entrepreneurs?

Sheesh 🙄
 
If dentistry is so fantastic, why is the competition to get into the school so much less than medical school competition in terms of overall applicant gpa, scores, etc? The situation is actually so dire that dental schools are closing throughout the country while more medical schools are cropping up.

My husband is a dentist, and I could not do what he does, nor could he do what I do. The fields are incredibly different, so if we are going to compare hourly wages, why not add CEO's and entrepreneurs?

Sheesh 🙄
 
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