Hours and experiences needed for Neuro Internship

[neuroflail]

How many hours of neuro assessment experience do I need to be competitive for a neuropsychology internship at a VA or Medical Center? Is there any requirements for types of cases I need to have seen in practicum? Are there other experiences I should attempt to obtain?

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[Justanothergrad]

best way would be to check APPIC and read up on the sites that you are interested in to see what the typical student they bring in for that track is like. I'm sure others here are far will share much more, but those I know who went neuro tended to have 200-300 hours of assessment with a variety of batteries. Besides that, doing a rotation at the type of site you want to go to is a good idea. Even if its not required, it gives you a) a feel for how sites may vary within the same training goal and b) it gives you some background on what the speed/efficiency of the system (*cough* VA *cough*). Thats a learning curve as well that makes life easier.

 

[DrMikeP]

Get a neuro practicum or other prac placement in a VA if possible as that will help greatly. If you can't get that then aim for a hospital placement.

800+ client related hours is a good goal for clinical people, with 200+ hours of testing.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I want to say I've seen at least a few sites with 400-500 hour assessment minimums, so I'd be aiming for at least that, spread across a variety of settings and patients.

 

[bcliff]

How many FTF intervention hours? And are 400-500 assessment hours including supervision etc?


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[WisNeuro]

How many FTF intervention hours? And are 400-500 assessment hours including supervision etc?

the 400-500 is just F2F assessment time with patients. Supervision is generally counted in its own, or as a support hour context. If you're going neuro focused internship, intervention doesn't need to be as high, but it definitely still needs to be adequate, I'd shoot for at least 200 F2F intervention/therapy hours if you are neuro focused. Having intervention experience also helps later on in job searches. People like flexibility, and if you can treat patients now and then in addition to your assessment work, you are more valuable.

 

[bcliff]

My program really pushes quality over quantity, which, in general, I really enjoy (and agree with from a training perspective), and I would think that strong case conceptualization training/skills would be more important than solid technical/administration training at the doctoral level.

If I have the option of going on external prac at a (highly reputable) "neuro assessment mill", or an equally reputable medical school setting that provides more intense supervision, but opportunities for fewer FTF hours, which would be preferable?

I don't know the exact numbers, but the bulk of my clinical hours will be neuro assessment, I just want to make sure I'm getting enough, and that my decision to prioritize quality of training over quantity of hours won't bite me in the ass later.


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[AcronymAllergy]

My program really pushes quality over quantity, which, in general, I really enjoy (and agree with from a training perspective), and I would think that strong case conceptualization training/skills would be more important than solid technical/administration training at the doctoral level.

If I have the option of going on external prac at a (highly reputable) "neuro assessment mill", or an equally reputable medical school setting that provides more intense supervision, but opportunities for fewer FTF hours, which would be preferable?

I don't know the exact numbers, but the bulk of my clinical hours will be neuro assessment, I just want to make sure I'm getting enough, and that my decision to prioritize quality of training over quantity of hours won't bite me in the ass later.


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Check the reqs of the internships to which you might apply, and be sure you'll meet any minimums they have. In general, you're correct--quality is more important than quantity, assuming you have whatever's needed for your application to be considered.

I do think there's a lot to be said for seeing a high volume of patients (physicians are on to something there), but I also think that's more valuable later in your training (i.e., on fellowship) than now.

 

[bcliff]

would either of you mind posting a link to where APPIC data by site can be found? I haven't been able to find it.


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[eremitestar]

https://membership.appic.org/directory/search

VA sites: http://www.psychologytraining.va.gov/programs.asp

You can also check the websites and program brochures of places you're interested in.

 

[neuroflail]

I want to say I've seen at least a few sites with 400-500 hour assessment minimums, so I'd be aiming for at least that, spread across a variety of settings and patients.

How important is it to have "hard" neuro experience, meaning prac at a VA or hospital and seeing cases such as TBI, stroke, etc.? Most of my assessment experience has been at private practices doing "soft" neuro testing on mood/anxiety disorders, LD, and ADHD. I am concerned that this experience will "railroad" me into only being able to get internship/postdoc/jobs in private practice doing the same, when I would really rather be placed at/seeing the former. I've done everything I can to get prac experience at any one of the VAs or medical centers but I have had no luck, despite going above and beyond to improve my ability to get placed.

 

[WisNeuro]

How important is it to have "hard" neuro experience, meaning prac at a VA or hospital and seeing cases such as TBI, stroke, etc.? Most of my assessment experience has been at private practices doing "soft" neuro testing on mood/anxiety disorders, LD, and ADHD. I am concerned that this experience will "railroad" me into only being able to get internship/postdoc/jobs in private practice doing the same, when I would really rather be placed at/seeing the former. I've done everything I can to get prac experience at any one of the VAs or medical centers but I have had no luck, despite going above and beyond to improve my ability to get placed.

Not as much of an impediment to get into a more neuro focused internship, but it could be a problem if you still don't have that experience going into postdoc. And, it will be a HUGE problem if you still don't have that experience going into a job after postdoc.

 

[neuroflail]

Not as much of an impediment to get into a more neuro focused internship, but it could be a problem if you still don't have that experience going into postdoc. And, it will be a HUGE problem if you still don't have that experience going into a job after postdoc.

I'm concerned about this lack of experience in certain settings/cases and how it might impact interviews and selection. Do you have any advice for how to broach this topic or present it when in interviews? I'm also curious if you have any general neuro interview tips/guidelines, as I have noticed that interviews for neuro seem to be very different in format and content than standard psych interviews. I seem to perform well in interviews for placements that are more psych oriented but not nearly as well for neuro oriented placements.

 

[WisNeuro]

I'm concerned about this lack of experience in certain settings/cases and how it might impact interviews and selection. Do you have any advice for how to broach this topic or present it when in interviews? I'm also curious if you have any general neuro interview tips/guidelines, as I have noticed that interviews for neuro seem to be very different in format and content than standard psych interviews. I seem to perform well in interviews for placements that are more psych oriented but not nearly as well for neuro oriented placements.

Which interviews? Interviewing for a practicum site, or once you get to internship interviews?

 

[neuroflail]

Which interviews? Interviewing for a practicum site, or once you get to internship interviews?

Both, really. I have struggled with practicum placement, and will be applying for a supplemental practicum this fall. I am also looking ahead as I will be applying for internships next fall.

 

[WisNeuro]

Well the prac placement one is tough. In many instances, programs have a pretty good relationship with prac sites. When a prac site has had good experiences with a program's students, they are more likely to accept the next batch because they trust their training. For the prac interviews, you have to play up your desire for whatever experience that site can provide for you. Similarly, for internship interviews, you could couch your lack of experience in a certain area as a reason you want that internship, to help give you some breadth.

One caveat though, some sites will simply not take students from certain programs. This applies to both prac and internship sites. For example, at one site I have been at, they would not consider Fielding students. And, at others, Argosy/Alliant/Albizu apps were not seriously considered. In those situations, not sure what advice I can give to overcome that.

 

[bcliff]

Well the prac placement one is tough. In many instances, programs have a pretty good relationship with prac sites. When a prac site has had good experiences with a program's students, they are more likely to accept the next batch because they trust their training. For the prac interviews, you have to play up your desire for whatever experience that site can provide for you. Similarly, for internship interviews, you could couch your lack of experience in a certain area as a reason you want that internship, to help give you some breadth.

One caveat though, some sites will simply not take students from certain programs. This applies to both prac and internship sites. For example, at one site I have been at, they would not consider Fielding students. And, at others, Argosy/Alliant/Albizu apps were not seriously considered. In those situations, not sure what advice I can give to overcome that.

Is Fielding's program the one that's 100% online?

 

[WisNeuro]

Is Fielding's program the one that's 100% online?

Generally, yeah.

 

[neuroflail]

Well the prac placement one is tough. In many instances, programs have a pretty good relationship with prac sites. When a prac site has had good experiences with a program's students, they are more likely to accept the next batch because they trust their training. For the prac interviews, you have to play up your desire for whatever experience that site can provide for you. Similarly, for internship interviews, you could couch your lack of experience in a certain area as a reason you want that internship, to help give you some breadth.

One caveat though, some sites will simply not take students from certain programs. This applies to both prac and internship sites. For example, at one site I have been at, they would not consider Fielding students. And, at others, Argosy/Alliant/Albizu apps were not seriously considered. In those situations, not sure what advice I can give to overcome that.

Ah, so it seems I've been working at a double disadvantage. I am at one of the three "A's" you mentioned, and it does not seem that my program has good relationships with many of these desirable sites...I don't think we have placed a student at any VA or Medical Center in many years, though I am told we used to do so.

 

[DrMikeP]

A lot depends on the particular Argosy as the quality and reputation varies widely. Some have great track records of various VA placements and 7yrs APA others never will get APA. Albizu students have improved amazingly in the past couple of years and their students have lately impressed many of my colleagues.

If you are from a school with a.diploma mill rep even if you are an awesome student you are going to have to go far and above to be competitive. Right or wrong that's just life.

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[neuroflail]

A lot depends on the particular Argosy as the quality and reputation varies widely. Some have great track records of various VA placements and 7yrs APA others never will get APA. Albizu students have improved amazingly in the past couple of years and their students have lately impressed many of my colleagues.

If you are from a school with a.diploma mill rep even if you are an awesome student you are going to have to go far and above to be competitive. Right or wrong that's just life.

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Now when you say far and above, what specifically can I do to go far and above? Do you have any suggestions? Some things I have done already include: Starting and taking on a leadership role in the ANST Chapter at my program, attending a brain dissection/neuroanatomy lab, taking CEU courses for additional education, attempting to get jobs as a Neuropsych Tech or Research Assistant (like prac, I cannot seem to get these positions), sessions with a psychologist who does career coaching with grad students to improve CV/cover letters/interview skills, volunteering, and of course lots and lots of additional reading. I have also attempted to get some research under my belt but I have been unable to get access to a clinical population or archival data. Any feedback or ideas would be greatly appreciated.

 

[DrMikeP]

Now when you say far and above, what specifically can I do to go far and above? Do you have any suggestions? Some things I have done already include: Starting and taking on a leadership role in the ANST Chapter at my program, attending a brain dissection/neuroanatomy lab, taking CEU courses for additional education, attempting to get jobs as a Neuropsych Tech or Research Assistant (like prac, I cannot seem to get these positions), sessions with a psychologist who does career coaching with grad students to improve CV/cover letters/interview skills, volunteering, and of course lots and lots of additional reading. I have also attempted to get some research under my belt but I have been unable to get access to a clinical population or archival data. Any feedback or ideas would be greatly appreciated.

The biggest thing is research, publications if possible, posters/presentations, and getting lots of face to face therapy and assessment hours. Get practicums in hospitals, VA's, make As. Do a real dissertation. Make yourself look like a PhD kind of PsyD and be able to talk the talk.

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[PsyDr]

With those credentials, I'd apply to a general psych internship in clinical APA site, which has a neuro track/fellowship. Once in, I'd slowly integrate my way into the neuro stuff. Then apply to a formal post doc.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Now when you say far and above, what specifically can I do to go far and above? Do you have any suggestions? Some things I have done already include: Starting and taking on a leadership role in the ANST Chapter at my program, attending a brain dissection/neuroanatomy lab, taking CEU courses for additional education, attempting to get jobs as a Neuropsych Tech or Research Assistant (like prac, I cannot seem to get these positions), sessions with a psychologist who does career coaching with grad students to improve CV/cover letters/interview skills, volunteering, and of course lots and lots of additional reading. I have also attempted to get some research under my belt but I have been unable to get access to a clinical population or archival data. Any feedback or ideas would be greatly appreciated.

Some of the difficulties you are experiencing are directly tied to the quality and/or reputation of the program. More solid programs tend to have more solid opportunities to generate the necessary experiences. Not saying this to be critical of you or your situation because at this point it is moot and you are doing what you can to maximize your chances. I honestly wish you the best of luck in this endeavor. The main reason to highlight this is to help prospective students understand that there are unseen problems that some of the low match, high cohort programs have.

I personally did not realize the importance of practicum opportunities and how local reputation played a role going into my doctoral program, but I quickly realized that those in my program were getting whatever experiences they wanted and were getting our top picks consistently. The other programs in the area, got whatever was left over and some sites would not take their students at all. We also had ready access to clinical populations and archival data. Even after licensure, my experiences at those practicum sites continues to contribute to my skill set and opened doors for me.

 

[psych.meout]

I had some similar questions about students interested in neuropsych internships and post-docs, so I thought it would be better to revive this thread instead of creating a new one.


1. It seems like the consensus is to aim for a minimum of at least 400-500 F2F assessment hours and at least 800 total F2F hours between assessment and intervention for clinically oriented students. Is this accurate? I tried using the link to the APPIC and VA websites, but many internship sites don't list any hours at all.

2. Of those that do list hours, I’ve seen some neuropsych internship sites list a minimum of 500 intervention hours required. Is this a typical requirement or are these just some of the more competitive/rigorous sites?

3. Should one’s assessment hours be just “hard” neuropsych-focused (e.g. TBI, dementia, neurosurgery evals, stroke, neurodegenerative diseases, etc.), or could/should they also be other forms of assessments, e.g. psychoed, LD, and ADHD evals for peds populations, forensic evals at detention facilities, bariatric and transplant, etc?

One program for which I’m weighing an admission offer seems to have mostly adult-oriented “hard” neuropsych experiences, but also has many other kinds of peds assessment experiences available. So, I’m interested in whether these other peds assessment experiences are valuable or if I should consider the lack of “hard” neuropsych experience with children and adolescents to be a “knock” against the program.

4. As far as diversity, breadth, and quality go, what are internship and post-doc admissions looking for in neuropsych? Is this peds vs. adults? Is this hospital vs. non-hospital neuro experience?

5. I understand that one should obtain experience at a VA or AMC if they are interested in internships/post-docs/careers there. Is it essential for these external practica experiences in grad school to be neuropsych or assessment-focused or could they be therapy/intervention-focused? I.e. is it just experience with that particular population and/or setting they are looking at, or is it also within a neuropsych context for that population and setting? Would it be sufficient to get intervention/therapy experience in a VA or AMC if one wanted to do neuropsych and assessment (as well as research) there as a career? E.g. if I was interested in neuropsych career at a VA, would it make much of a difference if I did, say, an integrated primary care or behavioral health externship there instead of a specific neuropsych?

6. How much is neuropsych-related research weighed in internship and post-doc applications? Are they looking for publications in neuropsych specific journals and presentations at INS and other neuropsych-related conferences OR can they be publications and presentations in other forums as long as they are still neuropsych-related (e.g. neuropsych and cognitive functioning in behavioral health issues like CVD or chronic pain)?

Thanks for the help!

 

[AcronymAllergy]

1) 800 hours seems like a fair goal. If you hit that, I don't imagine you'd be below threshold for many, if any, sites.

2) I've never come across a req of 500 F2F intervention hours for neuropsych sites or spots, so I wouldn't say it's typical. You may want to clarify with the site(s).

3) All of those would count as assessment hours, and assessments in multiple settings/for multiple purposes (assuming a good chunk were in the "hard" areas you identified) would likely be an asset.

Have to run, but wanted to at least quickly respond to those first 3 questions.

 

[Kadhir]

4. VAs- adult. Everyone else- depends. If it's a lifespan position, then having lifespan experience will obviously be beneficial. Hospital experience is almost requisite these days.

5. You absolutely need neuropsych practica for neuropsych track internships. Irrespective of setting, intervention-based externships (while good as foundations) will not suffice by themselves.

6. Certainly valued across the board, probably a bit more for post-doc than internship. Very clinical sites will expect less, but some scholarly productivity is pretty standard. Neuropsych conference attendance/presentation is recommended. Neuropsych work in general med conditions still counts as neuropsych. Methods/theory are more important than populations.

 

[psych.meout]

1) 800 hours seems like a fair goal. If you hit that, I don't imagine you'd be below threshold for many, if any, sites.

Thanks, that's what I was thinking. Beyond specific cumulative numbers, is there a particular ratio of assessment hours that internships and post-docs in neuropsych are looking for?

2) I've never come across a req of 500 F2F intervention hours for neuropsych sites or spots, so I wouldn't say it's typical. You may want to clarify with the site(s).

https://membership.appic.org/directory/display/136

Rush was one in particular I saw with a minimum of 500 intervention hours. It seems a bit confusing, because it has multiple tracks, including "Health Psychology (4 positions), Child/Adolescent/Pediatric Psychology (2 positions), or Neuropsychology (3 positions)," so maybe that number is just for those non-neuropsych tracks or maybe it's a general site minimum regardless of the track.

3) All of those would count as assessment hours, and assessments in multiple settings/for multiple purposes (assuming a good chunk were in the "hard" areas you identified) would likely be an asset.

I was hoping that was the case. Not only do I want the additional breadth of training, these other peds and adolescent sites offered at a couple programs I'm evaluating acceptances to are specifically very interesting and I would hope make me a more competitive candidate for internship and post-doc.

Have to run, but wanted to at least quickly respond to those first 3 questions.

Thanks again for the advice!

 

[psych.meout]

4. VAs- adult. Everyone else- depends. If it's a lifespan position, then having lifespan experience will obviously be beneficial.

Kind of piggybacking on AcronymAllergy's post, do you think that non-"hard" neuropsych experience, e.g. LD, ADHD, forensic, etc., experience with children and adolescent populations would suffice for lifespan positions, or would they want more focused neuropsych experiences with these populations?

Hospital experience is almost requisite these days.

Could that requisite hospital experience be at either a VAMC or a non-VA civilian hospital or does it not matter what kind of hospital it is?

5. You absolutely need neuropsych practica for neuropsych track internships. Irrespective of setting, intervention-based externships (while good as foundations) will not suffice by themselves.

Ok, but say I'm interested in neuropsych and working at a VAMC for a career. If I get a really good, "hard" neuropysch practicum at an AMC and my only VA experience is with intervention/therapy, would this suffice for the VA if I don't have specific neuropsych practicum experience at a VA? And vice versa, if I'm interested in a neuropsych position at an AMC and my "hard" neuropsych practicum was at a VAMC, would that work for them?

Basically, two of the programs I'm choosing between each have several great "hard" neuropsych hospital externships, including VAMCs and multiple AMCs each, but I obviously can't do them all and I don't want to limit my career options.

6. Certainly valued across the board, probably a bit more for post-doc than internship. Very clinical sites will expect less, but some scholarly productivity is pretty standard. Neuropsych conference attendance/presentation is recommended. Neuropsych work in general med conditions still counts as neuropsych. Methods/theory are more important than populations.

Thanks for the confirmation, it's what I was thinking originally.

 

[szymk1sm]

Could that requisite hospital experience be at either a VAMC or a non-VA civilian hospital or does it not matter what kind of hospital it is?

Ok, but say I'm interested in neuropsych and working at a VAMC for a career. If I get a really good, "hard" neuropysch practicum at an AMC and my only VA experience is with intervention/therapy, would this suffice for the VA if I don't have specific neuropsych practicum experience at a VA? And vice versa, if I'm interested in a neuropsych position at an AMC and my "hard" neuropsych practicum was at a VAMC, would that work for them?

I've only had "hard" neuropsych experience at an AMC and zero experience at a VA, and I just matched for a VA neuropsych internship spot.

Obviously can't speak for every AMC or every VA, but good adult experiences at either site should translate to the other.

 

[Kadhir]

I see how, with the way we drive home the requirements and caution against the pitfalls on this board, it's easy to get into the game of splitting training hairs. I have a tough time getting away from it myself. But the bottom line is that you need decent access to neuropsychology research, practica, and didactics/coursework in graduate school. You're right, you won't do all the practica- no one can. But that certainly doesn't have to limit you. When you apply for internship and postdoc, you will need to make a more convincing argument for fit than just "oh, well, I've done neuro in a VA!" As in therapy, content only gets you so far- the process is what's compelling. If you can demonstrate you have solid skills in synthesizing various pieces of information and conceptualizing medically and psychologically complex cases, and that you can be a neuroPSYCHologist, you're a strong candidate for the VA, or anywhere for that matter. This is why well-trained applicants routinely have interviews at both flagship VAs and top AMCs. They have the broad skills to be successful in either environment, and it just depends on what they want and how they sell themselves.

 

[PSYDNEUROGUY]

A lot depends on the particular Argosy as the quality and reputation varies widely. Some have great track records of various VA placements and 7yrs APA others never will get APA. Albizu students have improved amazingly in the past couple of years and their students have lately impressed many of my colleagues.

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I can only speak about my program, its quality, recent advancements/improvements/changes, some of the more recent historical trends and my personal experience. Albizu has several things "working against itself" such as financial issues, instability in faculty, provost, and even president positions, and its facilities. I am the neuropsychology club president and academic board representative where I sit on a board with other faculty, directors, provost and the president to discuss university operations, etc. With this in mind, the above issues I pointed out are generally consistent feelings amongst the study body and even faculty. Aside from that, our program requires the GRE (both subject and general exam) as well as specific coursework in psychology.

Our former director really emphasized quality control which allowed us to go from a 54% APA match rate to 84% with the difference attributed to students geographically restricted (I know five of them; one had two unfortunate deaths in their family within months of each other). The faculty is solid; we recently gained re-accreditation for 7 years. In terms of practicum placements, we are spoiled. I am currently at UM School of Medicine as a neuropsychology extern; the students in this site are all from Albizu. Also, we place a lot of students at Miami VA (where I will be at in September for rehabilitation). Also, we place a lot of students at Jackson Memorial and other Memorial-affiliated sites (e.g., Memorial West, etc.), Mt. Sinai Hospital, and others. Our graduates go on to secure fantastic internships and post-docs. Again, this is speaking as a current Albizu Psy.D. student who occupies multiple leadership roles where I get more than just a handful of opinions but actual survey and other outcome data related to the student body.

There is still a much-needed improvement, but in terms of clinical competency and readiness, the general feedback we receive from site directors and practicing psychologists in South Florida is that we produce great clinicians. I went into this program very skeptical and even ashamed as a result of its questionable quality in the past. Needless to say, this is no longer the issue; within the past five years, this program has improved greatly, and in the past two years we have made significant strides.

 

[Psychisfun43]

So helpful.

As a potential neuropsych student at a Psy.D. What questions should I ask the faculty? I have been asking how many FTF pract hours do we get? How many Neuropsych placements do you have and can I get pubs?
The Psy.D.’s which I have been interviewing are the top ones and some of them have formal neuro tracks others do not.

 

[PsychFL91]

So helpful.

As a potential neuropsych student at a Psy.D. What questions should I ask the faculty? I have been asking how many FTF pract hours do we get? How many Neuropsych placements do you have and can I get pubs?
The Psy.D.’s which I have been interviewing are the top ones and some of them have formal neuro tracks others do not.

I'd ask about how previous students have done in regards to neuro internship/post-doc. For my program, I was given a list at interview of where all the previous neuro-focused students were for internship, post-doc and eventual job.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I'd ask about how previous students have done in regards to neuro internship/post-doc. For my program, I was given a list at interview of where all the previous neuro-focused students were for internship, post-doc and eventual job.

Agreed, as this should give a good indication of not just where the top students land, but where everyone goes, and also how well regarded the program is by other training sites. If the program has a lot of students, you could also ask what the typical supervisor:student ratio is and how much supervision you could expect to receive at the different practicum sites.

 

[Psychisfun43]

I'd ask about how previous students have done in regards to neuro internship/post-doc. For my program, I was given a list at interview of where all the previous neuro-focused students were for internship, post-doc and eventual job.

I wasn’t able to get a list like that but they said that an average student was able to get accepted in multiple internships and got into post-docs. A faculty memeber told me to email him to put me in contact with some post-docs who graduated.

 

[Kadhir]

I wasn’t able to get a list like that but they said that an average student was able to get accepted in multiple internships and got into post-docs. A faculty memeber told me to email him to put me in contact with some post-docs who graduated.

You may be misquoting, but "multiple internships" doesn't make sense. You match to one internship. Unless they're talking non-APA/APPIC internships, in which case, run!! Also, just matching or getting "a post-doc" doesn't really matter. Neuro has more specific requirements, and you need to know if the places these folks are going satisfy those requirements. I'd definitely take that person's offer on talking to former grads, but make sure they're relatively recent. You should also be able to get some names of sites people have gone to, if not a formal list.

 

[Psychisfun43]

You may be misquoting, but "multiple internships" doesn't make sense. You match to one internship. Unless they're talking non-APA/APPIC internships, in which case, run!! Also, just matching or getting "a post-doc" doesn't really matter. Neuro has more specific requirements, and you need to know if the places these folks are going satisfy those requirements. I'd definitely take that person's offer on talking to former grads, but make sure they're relatively recent. You should also be able to get some names of sites people have gone to, if not a formal list.

Oh I meant to say multiple prac placements and that their students get into different internship sites. I’ll email the faculty member again and ask for some of the neuro internships their students get into.