House buying tips for new grads

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PharmDBro2017

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Curious as to what everyone here thinks about buying a home, how much mortgage should be vs. take home pay. I do follow Dave Ramsey on some of his principles, and he often states your monthly payment should not exceed >25% of take home pay. Any advice is welcome.

I'm looking for a larger place (wife and dogs). I don't want to buy too much house, but I want to be comfortable as well. Thanks ahead of time,

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Whatever you do, don't live in California. Your $300k house will look like crap compared to almost anywhere else.
 
Two bits of advice -
Don't underestimate maintenance costs.
I personally wouldn't buy until I had the 20% down to avoid PMI. Others may disagree.
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Sounds like good advice, I just read up on PMI. Thanks,

You shouldn't tie yourself to a house as a new grad. Rent for a year. Make sure you like your job. Things change. Rent an apartment downtown.

I may end up renting a home, can't do an apartment (dogs).

Whatever you do, don't live in California. Your $300k house will look like crap compared to almost anywhere else.

300k house buys an extremely nice home (imo) where I plan on being. Doubt I'll ever live in Cali.
 
Whatever you do, don't live in California. Your $300k house will look like crap compared to almost anywhere else.

Don't live in jersey either because that 300k house here will have 16k/year in taxes.
 
same thing in the DMV area. $180k will get u a 776 sq. ft condo built in the 1960s.
 
20% down minimum to avoid PMI like said earlier.
You are a new grad - you are not buying a forever home - get something basic, not too big, I did, and I know several people who did. If it is you and your wife + dogs - max at 2000 sq feet - that was big by 60's standards.
Check out the neighborhood - make sure it is one that is going to be going up in value - buy in the cheaper/smaller half of the neighborhood - nothing kills home values like being the most expensive house for miles.
This will vary by area - but I would plan on putting at least 10% of your monthly payment into a saving account to cover maintenance costs - nothing sucks more than having to replace your HVAC and you get hit with a 8 grand bill that you can't cover.
 
20% down to avoid PMI, but lenders are offering 10% down no PMI just a slightly higher rate (functionally the same thing, except interest is deductible, PMI is not).

Don't overestimate the tax benefits. Don't underestimate maintenance costs, especially if it's an older home.

DTI... 25% of income is a fine rule...but goodluck trying to meet that on the coasts unless you're married to another high income earner. 33% is more realistic, traditional lending guidelines call for a maximum of 43% (FHA goes to 50%, if anyone is wondering).

Google "new york times rent vs. buy" and there's a nice calculator you can use to determine what's more cost effective.

Watch out for sellers asking you to waive things, use a licensed RE agent, do you due diligence.
 
Here are some things I wrote before.

1. Title Insurance
I know some states do it differently, but in Florida you have to get title insurance and there are actually rates specified in the Statutes. It's about $1,500 for a $250k mortgage. What I didn't know when I bought my house was that you can shop around because some title insurers charge less than the specified rate. I used entitledirect.com when I refinanced and saved about $400.

2. Closing costs
These can add up to a lot so keep them in mind throughout the home buying process. For example, you may think you have a 20% downpayment saved of $50k, so you can afford a $250k house. But you have to pay closing costs and the lender needs you to have a few months of expenses in reserve on top of that, so you really need $65k+ in the bank.

If you go below 20% down, then you will need an escrow account, so be aware that you will have to pay the first year of home insurance plus 2 months into the escrow, and 2 months of property taxes. These could easily add up to an additional $2,000 which you'll have to bring to the closing table.
 
Even if you sell a house for the exact same price that you bought it for you are losing a ton of money due to the cost of the transaction (realtor fees, mortgage origination fees, etc.). Because of that I wouldn't buy anything unless I was stable in my job and plan to live there for at least 10+ years. Renting for the short term allows you to pay off your loans and save up for a down-payment on a house that you actually want. Upgrading houses is costly for the same reason (cost of transaction) so you don't really want to move into a dump with the intention of upgrading later.
 
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Even if you sell a house for the exact same price that you bought it for you are losing a ton of money due to the cost of the transaction (realtor fees, mortgage origination fees, etc.). Because of that I wouldn't buy anything unless I was stable in my job and plan to live there for at least 10+ years. Renting for the short term allows you to pay off your loans and save up for a down-payment on a house that you actually want. Upgrading houses is costly for the same reason (cost of transaction) so you don't really want to move into a dump with the intention of upgrading later.

I appreciate all of the advice guys, and I'm sure others do as well.

I'm definitely thinking of renting for the 1-3 years (wish I could change title of thread to buying/renting) now.
 
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DR says no more than 25% take home pay on a 15 year mortgage...which puts most people into a shack under the bridge instead of a home. I think 25% on 15 is very hard to manage; 33% on 15 might be doable.
 
DR says no more than 25% take home pay on a 15 year mortgage...which puts most people into a shack under the bridge instead of a home. I think 25% on 15 is very hard to manage; 33% on 15 might be doable.

I take what DR says with a grain of salt...he's so anti any debt, it's actually a pretty bad bias and blind spot.

If people followed his advice blindly, pretty much no one would become a physician or pharmacist due to the initial cost/debt load involved, and people on the coasts would never end up buying a house in their lifetime.


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You need to know several things when purchasing a home.

First: At the present time in my area and many areas (Greater Philadelphia Area) it's waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better to buy than rent. So for example if you buy a 300,000 house with 20% down and carry a 240K mortgage @ 3.92% your mortgage will be $1,135,00 per month. At 6K in real estate taxes and 2K in home owners insurance your monthly payments would total around $1,800.00 Now what size place could you rent for $1,800.00 a month? Also factor in your net tax bracket of about 20% and the mortgage /real estate deduction nets you another over 3K per year( $266 per month). Unless your area has a glut of rental properties, it almost always better to buy unless this is a short term purchase in a falling market.

Second: In Real Estate remember the three most important things are location, location and location. I live 4.5 miles from work. What will your commuting costs be? How have property values been in the area you are looking at? What are the quality of the public schools in the area you desire. This feeds into the resale value.

Third: Get a home inspector that you trust. This is key. You don't want to move in and find out you need a new roof, or an electrical upgrade or a foundation repair or a new heater or A/C unit.

Fourth: Work with your own realtor. The Realtor that is selling the house works for the seller. You need somebody working for you that knows the market and the value of houses in the area you are looking at.

Fifth: Be prepared to take on the labor and expense for home ownership: Shoveling the snow, raking the leaves, mowing the lawn, etc. It takes time or money.

Sixth: Factor in any upgrades you want to do. From minor thinks like painting to major items like a new kitchen or bathroom.

Seventh: Now you need to make sure you have disability insurance. You are more likely to be disabled than die so you need to be able to protect your investment. If you are married you also need life insurance for both income producers.

Eighth: There are no RULES. There are guidelines Generally accepted percentage of income for housing. Once you read the articles in the link you can decide what works best for you.

Ninth: Make sure you are prepared for all the expenses of home ownership that don't usually amount to anything at an apartment like utilities, home owners insurance, real estate taxes, etc.

Tenth: Have a good solid realistic budget that you can live with. Don't lie to yourself when you make the budget.

I was lucky. I bought my house at the low point in the market. I was able to leverage my house to buy a vacation home and pay for my kids college so they got out debt free. I still have mortgage payments but it was a value judgement I made for me. You have to make your own for you.
 
Make sure you factor in taxes. They can vary insanely town to town affecting your borrowing ability. Maybe living a block or two from your dream town is a good choice if it gets you into a town with a Lower tax rate

I did a 10% down loan wo pmi through a credit union. The rates were basically no different vs 20% down

If you're handy don't be scared of a ****ty house on a nice block. Redoing some things like a kitchen,bathroom and basic cosmetic things (like refinishing floors) can maybe your resale value significantly higher
 
I own my personal home...and a duplex which cash flows nearly 500 a month. If one was smart...their first purchase would be a 4 plex, tri plex, or duplex. You can get into anything 4 plex and smaller with a traditional mortgage. nice thing is...you only need 5% down to buy that nice 4 plex and start making some money( as other have said, you will pay pmi with <20%). Move out after a year or two, and buy second 4 plex, and do that up to 4 times. You can personally have 4 mortgages....anyways....if I was single and more wise, that would have been a good idea. You make a few good buys and you could seriously set yourself up. please see biggerpockets.com for better/more info
 
Would a dog tie you down too much? What's the most quietest/apartment living suited dog?


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Would a dog tie you down too much? What's the most quietest/apartment living suited dog?
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Hard to say. Small dogs yap a lot, and big dogs aren't always allowed in apartments. Either way, they tie you down... when you're not in class you need to be taking care of them. You're all that they've got, pack animals need to be with their pack.

It is hard to find a place to rent with a large dog too.
 
I own my personal home...and a duplex which cash flows nearly 500 a month. If one was smart...their first purchase would be a 4 plex, tri plex, or duplex. You can get into anything 4 plex and smaller with a traditional mortgage. nice thing is...you only need 5% down to buy that nice 4 plex and start making some money( as other have said, you will pay pmi with <20%). Move out after a year or two, and buy second 4 plex, and do that up to 4 times. You can personally have 4 mortgages....anyways....if I was single and more wise, that would have been a good idea. You make a few good buys and you could seriously set yourself up. please see biggerpockets.com for better/more info

I know a guy who did this with rental houses. He owns about 12 houses now and all of them are worth less than what he owes. Very risky.
 
I know a guy who did this with rental houses. He owns about 12 houses now and all of them are worth less than what he owes. Very risky.
depends on the market location - I know a guy in phx would ended up in the same situation - but I know a guy who does this is a medium size midwestern town and makes big bank
 
Two bits of advice -
Don't underestimate maintenance costs.
I personally wouldn't buy until I had the 20% down to avoid PMI. Others may disagree.
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So that's for a conventional loan only, correct?

Are there other types of loans that would be better... to avoid having to pay 20% down? That would take me a year to save up for.
 
Buy something small in a good neighborhood that if in a few years you decide to move you could use as rental property. I mean how much house does a recent grad really need? save the money, pay off loans, and if worse comes to worse you could always move and still cover the mortgage of this property until you find a company to manage the property. Just an option.
 
Buy something small in a good neighborhood that if in a few years you decide to move you could use as rental property. I mean how much house does a recent grad really need? save the money, pay off loans, and if worse comes to worse you could always move and still cover the mortgage of this property until you find a company to manage the property. Just an option.

Looking at it from a long term stand point... owning for 10 years or so. New grad + wife + 2 large dogs... 1,600 sq ft isn't so "comfortable" anymore.

Looking for ~2,500 sq ft.
 
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Anyone familiar with Loan Assistance For First Time Homebuyers specifically in the SFO region? Any starting advice would be tremendous.
 
I know a guy who did this with rental houses. He owns about 12 houses now and all of them are worth less than what he owes. Very risky.

How does his overall cash flow look? It might still be worth it if he is collecting more money in rent than he spends on mortgages, repairs, taxes, and other fees.
 
How does his overall cash flow look? It might still be worth it if he is collecting more money in rent than he spends on mortgages, repairs, taxes, and other fees.

I have no idea. He almost lost everything after the market crash but I think he survived. Not sure what his situation is now.
 
Buying a house vs building one what are your thoughts guys. anyone has experience with building a house.
 
Would a dog tie you down too much? What's the most quietest/apartment living suited dog?


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I have a Shihpoo (laugh if you want). He is a cross between a poodle and a shih tzu and a great apt dog. Weighs about 12 lbs, the poodle side makes him low shed and less health problems than a shih tzu, and the shi tzu part makes him chill and quiet.

He just enjoys lying around inside my place with me, but has small bursts of energy if you want to play around. Very low maintenance hybrid breed that are generally very healthy. Only bad thing really is that if you want to leave town for the weekend, you have to board or get someone to watch em.
 
Here are some things I wrote before.

1. Title Insurance
I know some states do it differently, but in Florida you have to get title insurance and there are actually rates specified in the Statutes. It's about $1,500 for a $250k mortgage. What I didn't know when I bought my house was that you can shop around because some title insurers charge less than the specified rate. I used entitledirect.com when I refinanced and saved about $400.

2. Closing costs
These can add up to a lot so keep them in mind throughout the home buying process. For example, you may think you have a 20% downpayment saved of $50k, so you can afford a $250k house. But you have to pay closing costs and the lender needs you to have a few months of expenses in reserve on top of that, so you really need $65k+ in the bank.

If you go below 20% down, then you will need an escrow account, so be aware that you will have to pay the first year of home insurance plus 2 months into the escrow, and 2 months of property taxes. These could easily add up to an additional $2,000 which you'll have to bring to the closing table.

What is the difference between PMI with lender paid vs. monthly? And do you pay PMI until you get 20% of the home paid off?
 
What is the difference between PMI with lender paid vs. monthly? And do you pay PMI until you get 20% of the home paid off?
Lender paid PMI usually means they will increase your interest rate by a tiny bit, so you still end up paying it for as long as you have that mortgage. If you pay the PMI yourself, yes they will remove it when you reach 78-80% of the home's value, but they may or may not require an appraisal to determine the current market value and this can be a pain if the value drops.

http://www.bankrate.com/finance/mortgages/lender-paid-mortgage-insurance-pros-cons.aspx

http://www.bankrate.com/finance/mortgages/removing-private-mortgage-insurance.aspx
 
Lender paid PMI usually means they will increase your interest rate by a tiny bit, so you still end up paying it for as long as you have that mortgage. If you pay the PMI yourself, yes they will remove it when you reach 78-80% of the home's value, but they may or may not require an appraisal to determine the current market value and this can be a pain if the value drops.

http://www.bankrate.com/finance/mortgages/lender-paid-mortgage-insurance-pros-cons.aspx

http://www.bankrate.com/finance/mortgages/removing-private-mortgage-insurance.aspx

Is there no loan type that would avoid PMI with <20% down payment?

Looking into some of these professional/doctor loan types that allow a minimal down payment.... don't want to have to pay PMI though.
 
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Is there no loan type that would avoid PMI with <20% down payment?

Looking into some of these professional/doctor loan types that allow a minimal down payment.... don't want to have to pay PMI though.
There's no such thing as a free lunch. Those programs could be lender paid PMI with a slightly higher interest rate than you could've gotten with 20% down, and they may not even tell you about the PMI. Or there are piggyback loans where you get an 80% loan with no PMI, but also a secondary loan for 10-15% with a higher interest rate, and the remaining 5-10% being your downpayment.

Personally, I'm against debt and paying interest so I recommend putting >20% down and leaving enough room in your budget (by not having too much mortgage or student loan debt) to pay extra principal payments and get your mortgage paid off in 7-10 years.
 
Is there no loan type that would avoid PMI with <20% down payment?

Looking into some of these professional/doctor loan types that allow a minimal down payment.... don't want to have to pay PMI though.
We used a physician loan through bank of america when we bought our house. I don't know of any loans like this for pharmacists specifically. Required credit score >750.

5% down and no pmi. Rate is 3.9%. 30yr fixed.
We kept our total housing costs mortgage/taxes/insurance at <25% of net income. We plan to be here for the long haul.

Don't over extent yourself on a house.
 
If you can't put 20% down - you shouldn't be buying a home - just my two cents worth
 
If you can't put 20% down - you shouldn't be buying a home - just my two cents worth

I'm having a hard time coming up with other options besides buying, and I'm looking at being here for 10yrs, hopefully.

Bank is offering 3% down and they pay PMI with 5.000% interest rate for the life of 30 yr loan; or 5% down and I pay PMI with 4.3750% interest rate. Second option is better it sounds like in the long haul.
 
I'm having a hard time coming up with other options besides buying, and I'm looking at being here for 10yrs, hopefully.

Bank is offering 3% down and they pay PMI with 5.000% interest rate for the life of 30 yr loan; or 5% down and I pay PMI with 4.3750% interest rate. Second option is better it sounds like in the long haul.
Do the math on it - what is your total monthly payment with the two options? interest is deductible, PMI isn't. Also remember, if you get the loan below 20% LTV - you have to pay for an appraisal to get ride of PMI. Again - rent and save up for 20% down. I just bought a home with 30% down. But my loan is also only 110% of our families annual income.
 
I'm having a hard time coming up with other options besides buying, and I'm looking at being here for 10yrs, hopefully.

Bank is offering 3% down and they pay PMI with 5.000% interest rate for the life of 30 yr loan; or 5% down and I pay PMI with 4.3750% interest rate. Second option is better it sounds like in the long haul.
I agree... You can't afford this house if you only have 3%... save save save 6 months to a yr... it's not that difficult.
 
Do the math on it - what is your total monthly payment with the two options? interest is deductible, PMI isn't. Also remember, if you get the loan below 20% LTV - you have to pay for an appraisal to get ride of PMI. Again - rent and save up for 20% down. I just bought a home with 30% down. But my loan is also only 110% of our families annual income.

It's about $34 less per month to do the 5% down and pay my own PMI.

I thought once you get 20% equity in the house that PMI goes away?


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If you can't put 20% down - you shouldn't be buying a home - just my two cents worth

You say that because of geography!

I just found the perfect house in my neighborhood but it's nearly $800K


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You say that because of geography!

I just found the perfect house in my neighborhood but it's nearly $800K


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yes - but I do NOT live in a cheap area - one of the hotest markets in the nation - houses next to my work go for 700-1.2 million - I just got a reasonable place - I don't need anything crazy for the two of us
 
Depending on the average rent of an are and other factors, I would gun for that 5% loan and get it done.

Saving 20% may not be feasible in a short period of time and there's still a potential cost savings to gain. 4.375% is a historically good rate.

How much would you pay in PMI?

I still advocate 20% down (that's what I did), but different numbers exist for different folks.


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Depending on the average rent of an are and other factors, I would gun for that 5% loan and get it done.

Saving 20% may not be feasible in a short period of time and there's still a potential cost savings to gain. 4.375% is a historically good rate.

How much would you pay in PMI?

I still advocate 20% down (that's what I did), but different numbers exist for different folks.


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I made the mistake of doing one of the zero down loans - then the market collapsed - I paid 20k just to sell my house - I bought to0 expensive and too big - so do as i say not as i do - I rented for 5 years- saved up $$, put 30% down on a home 2/3 the size and less in cost - and a MUCH better area for me...
 
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20% down makes most sense if you can swing it. Our focus was keeping the loan to less than twice annual salary and less than 25% of net income.

Every situation is different but you should focus on trying to get 20% downpayment and making sure the monthly payments will not stop you from enjoying life.
 
yes - but I do NOT live in a cheap area - one of the hotest markets in the nation - houses next to my work go for 700-1.2 million - I just got a reasonable place - I don't need anything crazy for the two of us

The $800K house I found is 1200sf 2bed/2ba - far from extravagant.

Ridiculous.


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I disagree- i put 20K down on my 360K home. I could have out more down, sure- I kept 40K in my emergency fund (still not 20%). Or i could have kept paying 16K a year to rent an 100K townhouse- I just didn't have the cash to put that the whole 20% due to my age but that doesn't mean I couldn't afford to buy a home.

Yes I am aware I could have purchased a 100-150K house.
that rent is ridiculous for a 100k town home - I paid that much for a home that was worth 230k - seems awful high - honestly the best thing from a financial point of view would have been to buy that 100k townhome - - to each their own - it just sucks when you see how little of your payment goes toward principle when you borrow that much, and pay pmi
 
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