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Disclaimer: I am only a MS4 who is currently applying for Rad Onc, but am currently sitting on double-digit (barely) interviews currently (of which the most recent Charting the Outcomes states I should match somewhere)
To all: I cannot understate the importance (at least IMO) of having all your LoRs (go for 4 if you can) 1) be from Attending Rad Oncs, preferably from academic institutions or residency programs, 2) Be from the biggest names possible, 3) Be as positive as possible. Sometimes you need to compromise between 2 and 3. I skipped a letter from a Chairman at my 'home' institution because I saw him maybe 3 times, and everytime he seemed to have forgotten that I was planning to apply to Rad Onc (as a MS4 doing a Rad Onc rotation in July). I went with the PD and an attending who point-blank offered to write me a letter (apparently a rare occurence).
I would respectfully disagree with the statement that all LORs need to be from rad onc. If you have extremely strong letters from not radiation oncologists (for example, the chair of medicine, or a dean, or a PI), you can/should use those too. I have seen them make a difference. Of rad onc letters are important too, though. If using a non-rad onc letter though you have to know it's good.
Sorry for another query. I'm considering applying to rad onc and would appreciate your candid feedback.
Would be worth taking a year off if you want to have a shot at a program the caliber of UMich. Going to be tough with no rad onc research.
Should be able to match, just pick your aways well. I would do two aways for sure.How about my chances of matching overall, if I manage to get some rad onc research done over the next several months?
(1a) What are my chances?!? Does the prolonged PhD raise a red flag?
(1b) I really want go into basic science within rad onc career-wise. My chairman said that top 10 programs are out of reach for me, which is TOTALLY fine. But, I'd like to match at a mid-tier program with solid research opportunities. Realistic?
(2) Is there any use to a letter from my home school from a more-or-less unknown rad oncologist? (I get the sense without a big-wig letter, my chances are pretty tough).
(3) How big of a deal is lack of rad onc research? (I'm hustling to try to get some Rad Onc research during third year, but realistically it'll be tough to get it published come application time Fall 2015)
Hey everyone! I'm a third year and I've been interested in Rad Onc since year one. I love the field, but am really uncertain about my chances and could use some perspective.
Preclinical: P/NP. Did above average.
Step 1: Low 260's
Rotations: Honored 1/4 so far (surgery), still have IM and Psych remaining. Unlikely I will honor IM. I think I will honor psych which would put me at 2/6 rotations honored.
Research: I have been on 3 rad-onc projects with no research experience prior to medical school.
- 1st project - Paper submitted as 1st author (have yet to hear back and it has been several months unfortunately). No abstract or presentation however.
- 2nd project - Basic science research - have an abstract and 2 presentations (1x at ASTRO, 1x at my school). Unlikely to publish a paper on this.
- 3rd project - Chart review stuff - have an abstract and presentation at ASTRO. Will try and get a 1st author paper submitted in the next 4 months.
LOR: No idea how this is going to go... I'm not particularly tight with the people I've done research with and I have to admit to dragging my feet on the projects listed above.
I think interviews and my personal statement will be strong points for me. I came to medical school to be an oncologist and have a lot of history supporting that.
I guess my questions are:
1) Research: Assuming I end up with 1 first author, 2 abstracts, 3 presentations. Is this enough? Should I do 1 more project 4th year? Do I need to delay step 2 til after interviews so that I can beef this part of my resume up? It's really intimating seeing so many MD/PHDs and people with AOA!
2) LOR: As I mentioned above, I don't have a particularly strong relationship with the people I've done research with (although it's not bad either). However, one is a big name doctor. Should I get letters from these PI's even if I'm uncertain how they'll turn out? Otherwise, do I just get all of my letters from away rotations? Seems tough to find 4 different people during 4th year!
3) Geography: What would I need to do to end up in anywhere in California, Oregon, Texas, New York, Florida, Chicago, Atlanta or some other major city. Part of the issue is I want to couples match, and my partner really wants to end up in California and definitely doesn't want to live in a rural area. It's still a little unclear if we will couples match, but would I have to take a year off to make matching in these spots a reality?
I hate all the anxiety in this process so I would appreciate your thoughts! Thanks.
Monkei, everyone ignored you because you are the stereotypical SDN lurker with a 260 who is worried and wants to primarily be in the West or east Coast. Go away and relax.
VERY STICKY SITUATION! NEED YOUR INPUT!
MS3
School: Top 10-12 ranked sch nationally with Rad Onc Dept
Step 1: Disaster! 218
Step 2: Not yet
Research: One in-house School poster presentation, 2nd author on Astro poster, 2nd Author Abstract to Red Journal
Aways: Planning on Home program, then 2 Aways
Question: Trying to decide between channeling my efforts towards a stellar step 2 or trying to get around 3-4 abstracts by September. Doing both will compromise approaches, especially my ability to focus during my Sub I rotations.
If it were you...what would you do... 1. Go for the 250+ Step 2 score to redeem a poor step one with mediocre research experiences OR 2. Apply with 218 step 1 with more research and doing step 2 later in the year (~Nov/Dec) and updating my scores to programs at that time
PS: My goal is to get into any program I can get. Low tier to Mid tier (if you can even rank programs as such)
First of all, thanks to everyone for the great advice. This is very helpful for us applicants to be. That being said, here's my stuff and any advice is very appreciated:
MS3
School: Unranked Private in SE without a rad onc residency program (but with a very small rad onc department)
Grades: Clinicals: Mix of HP/H (Preclinicals are P/F)
Step 1: 247
Step 2: Probably will take it in September
Research: This is my (very) weak point. I have bench research from undergrad with nothing to show for it. I'm currently working with a med onc at my school who is semi-well known in the rad onc world. I'm beginning on a project right now that will likely end in at least an abstract and hopefully I can be productive and get a publication or two. I've considered a year off for research and could possibly do it, but I would prefer not to. I'm also working on a breast CA project in our rads dept and will likely get at least an abstract and be able to present it at RSNA in the fall.
Aways: Since I don't have a home rad onc residency (and none in the area) my plan was to do a home rotation at one of the hospitals around here plus either: 2x audition aways + 1x research away all geographically spread out at middle tier locations; or 3x auditions, again spread out. I would love to only be able to do 2 aways but I realize that probably unwise.
My dream would be to end up in the West or mid-west for residency but I'm really open to going anywhere. I know I won't be able to match at top tier programs and I'm okay with that and would be incredibly happy just to much!
Thanks!!
your step 1 will for sure hurt you. Though I think it is lazy do so, there are places which use it as a screen so your application may not be read. You will be asked about it in some interviews. The average step1 is in the 240s. Apply very broadly (every single program), do three away rotations, get letters from well known people. Try to do as much research as possible and kill step 2 (questionable whether it helps or not). Have a back up plan. Rad onc is getting incredibly competitive. You may want to do a research year and put out a few red journal first authors. It is still possible to match, however. Research is far more valued than a step1 score.
MS3
School: Unranked Private in SE without a rad onc residency program (but with a very small rad onc department)
Grades: Clinicals: Mix of HP/H (Preclinicals are P/F)
Step 1: 247
Step 2: Probably will take it in September
Research: This is my (very) weak point. I have bench research from undergrad with nothing to show for it. I'm currently working with a med onc at my school who is semi-well known in the rad onc world. I'm beginning on a project right now that will likely end in at least an abstract and hopefully I can be productive and get a publication or two. I've considered a year off for research and could possibly do it, but I would prefer not to. I'm also working on a breast CA project in our rads dept and will likely get at least an abstract and be able to present it at RSNA in the fall.
Aways: Since I don't have a home rad onc residency (and none in the area) my plan was to do a home rotation at one of the hospitals around here plus either: 2x audition aways + 1x research away all geographically spread out at middle tier locations; or 3x auditions, again spread out. I would love to only be able to do 2 aways but I realize that probably unwise.
RadonculousRUS - in all seriousness, if you really want rad onc with that Step 1 score it's not going to be impossible, but I don't think you're there yet. Coming from someone with a Step 1 score even lower than yours who matched (at a fantastic institution), it can be done but you need to work your rear end of to make sure there are NO other holes in our application - and on top of that you need to have a reason for them to consider you. There are more than enough qualified applicants to fill the spots. That means you need to have excellent research, excellent letters, excellent clinical grades and you need to nail your aways. On top of that, there will be automatic screens that will screen you out at many places before anyone lays eyes on your application, so you will need to apply broadly to overcome that. In your case, that probably means you do need to take a year off as carbionangle stated. It will give you time to nail step 2 and make sure you get research done - you don't need more abstracts, you need manuscripts and manuscripts take time. If you apply this year make sure you have a solid backup plan.
So, I have decided to take a year off to become a stronger applicant per the feedback I got from here.
Question 1:
Are there any year long paid fellowships for rad onc that I can apply to?
Question 2:
Which ones of those will allow me to very productive with respect to research papers?
Probably not hard when a big chunk of applicants are MD/PhD, and probably have research in other fields before they find an interest in rad onc.I am curious how people achieve 12+ publications by the time of ERAS submission.
I am curious how people achieve 12+ publications by the time of ERAS submission.
MS3
School: Top 50 (between 30-50)
Grades: Clinicals: Honors Psych, High Pass/Pass: Peds/Obgyn, completed home rotation, probably not AOA
Step 1: 252
Step 2: not sure when to take this
Extra: PhD- cancer biology
Research:
- 15 peer reviewed-basic science (2 co-first), 12 abstracts-basic science (3 first author)
-1 ASTRO oral presentation/abstract (1st author)
Aways: 1 scheduled at "top tier", not sure about 2nd
Unclear about need to take Step 2 "early" for app package, as well as need for second externship
Reassuring to hear that good (though not stellar) clinical grades won't be an outright disqualifier from top programs.
Also, any words of wisdom on who to approach for LOR on aways?
I'm at a home institution with a "mid-tier" RadOnc program. I know it has been beaten to death in other threads, but would those with more experience advocate doing away rotations at name brand centers in addition to one at a relatively less competitive program?
NO reason to take Step 2 - at all. I would definitely wait until after eras is sent to take it. No one will ever ask you about it.
You're an MD/PHD with tons of research as well as an Oral at ASTRO and a 252 step to top it off? You're a shoe-in for a top 10-15 type place. Well done.
Someone like you doesn't need to do extra aways
Nobody on here has ever said that is the case.
Whoever you worked with the most and who you think can write you the best letter. Don't approach the chair for a letter if you didn't or barely worked with them. The name might be great, but a generic letter isn't.
There is no consensus on this point. If you're a top tier applicant, you might as well rotate at top tier places.
Agreed.
I'm a firm believer that a "top" program is not necessarily the best for development of a physician-scientist as opposed to a program that may not be as big name but actually supports physician-scientists. Whatever SDN ranking you believe is not necessarily indicative of the program's support for research among its residents. Just something to consider for the multiple MD/PhDs posting and reading here.
Agreed. I don't know what topic your ASTRO oral is on, but it may be best to do some additional clinical radiation research since you have the basic research covered.
Thanks for the feedback!I am currently doing a year of research before my MS4 year. When I was in your spot I realized there aren't many available programs that will pay you for an entire research year (The NIH has a year long research scholars program where you can say you'd preferably like to work with a radiation oncologist; but it won't be guaranteed. I don't know if the deadline passed already). Your school may also have a research scholarship you can apply for so definitely check with them.
I ended up doing a year of unpaid (ouch) translational glioma research (not directly rad onc related) but made time to get on board with some part time radiation oncology projects.
I found that most radiation oncologists in academic centers are very receptive to taking on students for projects. I basically looked up radiation oncologists at nearby institutions (my own has a small rad onc department but we have absolutely no clinical research going on), looked up how frequently they published in pubmed and emailed them asking if they had any projects I could assist with. If you contact a few your bound to find some who are more than willing to take you on.
Hopefully you'll find a year long radiation oncology project. But if not there are definitely ways to still be productive at least on a part-time basis.
Very much appreciate your thoughts!Pretty tough to get paid to do clinical research when plenty do it for free. I worked in a lab doing a basic science fellowship and I did clinical research on the side. You should be able to find a lab gig. Lab work is tedious and hours can be long but you gotta do it. Just be very certain that it is a good lab with a good mentor. Nothing worst than being in a lab and knowing your project is going nowhere........it SUCKS. The other option is to move back home and find something local and do clinical research (cheap). The year off is good i had a a good time with my girls on my time off
Nobody on here has ever said that is the case.
Whoever you worked with the most and who you think can write you the best letter. Don't approach the chair for a letter if you didn't or barely worked with them. The name might be great, but a generic letter isn't.
There is no consensus on this point. If you're a top tier applicant, you might as well rotate at top tier places.
Agreed.
I'm a firm believer that a "top" program is not necessarily the best for development of a physician-scientist as opposed to a program that may not be as big name but actually supports physician-scientists. Whatever SDN ranking you believe is not necessarily indicative of the program's support for research among its residents. Just something to consider for the multiple MD/PhDs posting and reading here.
Agreed. I don't know what topic your ASTRO oral is on, but it may be best to do some additional clinical radiation research since you have the basic research covered.
Recently got patent as well and it's applicable to radiation oncology, however not sure if anyone really cares since it's awarded to home institution first.
words of wisdom on who to approach for LOR on aways? Chairs/mentors/"big names"?