Hi all,
Regarding the controversy between professional schools and university based programs, I have found the discussions on this board to be very insightful. I think that many posters have made a very strong case for professional school's damaging the profession of clinical psychology as it stands and I agree. However, thats not what I am concerned with in this thread and I don't mean to make the debate go in that direction again. What I am concerned with is the potential for how freestanding professional schools effect the students that attend them.
I think it is easy to say that being 200,000 in debt is much worse than not being in debt and I also think it is easy to say that the superior job prospects that come along with a university education are better than those of professional schools. But from my perspective, as a prospective student, this seems like an oversimplification of the matter.
For example, in my case, being a student who is going to graduate with a great GPA, honors, and good GRE scores but has no chance at all of being accepted to a Ph.D. program for not having enough research experience or good enough letters, the idea of attending a good ph.d. program seems seems just as daunting to me as the debt of a professional school. I will have to spend 1-2 more years gaining more research experience, and then I MIGHT get accepted to a program after jumping through all the hurdles involved. Then, assuming I get into a program I will have to spend 6-7 years (I think this is accurate?) in school obtaining my Ph.D., while not losing money, but also not gaining money, until I can finally start a career. On the other hand if I were to attend Argosy and get a Psy.D. in 5 years and accure a debt of 150,000 from doing so (tuition 100,000 + 50,000 living expenses, does this seem reasonable?), I get to get out and get started on my career making money around 3 years sooner at a Clinical Psychologists salary (50,000-60,000 or so sound reasonable?).
And yes, I see the massive assumption I made here that I will be able to land a job upon graduating from a professional school. However, also what I have heard on this forum from those attending professional schools seems to be that the cream rises to the top and it is essentially what you make of it. Then, isn't it reasonable to assume that I were even able to get admitted to a good Ph.D. program and be succesful in one of those, given how much higher quality, on average, the students are that can do so, I would probably be one of those good students in a professional program that would be able to be succesful and attain an APA-internship? Unless of course I am wrong and it is more a matter of luck what happens after getting a non-reputable Psy.D.
Of course I can also see the huge potential for throwing away tens of thousands on a professional program if it really doesn't work out. I see this darker side that the professional school has on the individual of robbing their money and their time. And it saddens me that that can happen to a person. But since it seems that people can be succesful after attending such programs, and there must be reasons for this, it seems to me an over-simplification to just say that it is bad for someone to attend one because on average there are worse job prospects and there is more debt involved.
Perhaps an M.A. or an M.S.W. would serve those of us better who primarily want to perform therapy, but of course there is a certain level of debt involved with those degrees as well and the lowered salary may take its toll and make it a worse investment over time.
But to conclude, the question I am asking is, does attending a professional program ALWAYS have negative expected value attached to it for a student who may be capable of being admitted to a Ph.D. program, or does it vary according to the capabilities of the individual and can those capabilities be predicted. I would also like to say, that while I agree that professional schools negatively impact YOUR profession, I am not yet a part of that profession and am looking toward MY profession and how I can make a difference in the world. Please feel free to rip my perspective to shreds if you can tell me how I'm wrong; I claim to know very little about these issues. But it is possible that others out there in similar situations see this from the same angle I do.
Regarding the controversy between professional schools and university based programs, I have found the discussions on this board to be very insightful. I think that many posters have made a very strong case for professional school's damaging the profession of clinical psychology as it stands and I agree. However, thats not what I am concerned with in this thread and I don't mean to make the debate go in that direction again. What I am concerned with is the potential for how freestanding professional schools effect the students that attend them.
I think it is easy to say that being 200,000 in debt is much worse than not being in debt and I also think it is easy to say that the superior job prospects that come along with a university education are better than those of professional schools. But from my perspective, as a prospective student, this seems like an oversimplification of the matter.
For example, in my case, being a student who is going to graduate with a great GPA, honors, and good GRE scores but has no chance at all of being accepted to a Ph.D. program for not having enough research experience or good enough letters, the idea of attending a good ph.d. program seems seems just as daunting to me as the debt of a professional school. I will have to spend 1-2 more years gaining more research experience, and then I MIGHT get accepted to a program after jumping through all the hurdles involved. Then, assuming I get into a program I will have to spend 6-7 years (I think this is accurate?) in school obtaining my Ph.D., while not losing money, but also not gaining money, until I can finally start a career. On the other hand if I were to attend Argosy and get a Psy.D. in 5 years and accure a debt of 150,000 from doing so (tuition 100,000 + 50,000 living expenses, does this seem reasonable?), I get to get out and get started on my career making money around 3 years sooner at a Clinical Psychologists salary (50,000-60,000 or so sound reasonable?).
And yes, I see the massive assumption I made here that I will be able to land a job upon graduating from a professional school. However, also what I have heard on this forum from those attending professional schools seems to be that the cream rises to the top and it is essentially what you make of it. Then, isn't it reasonable to assume that I were even able to get admitted to a good Ph.D. program and be succesful in one of those, given how much higher quality, on average, the students are that can do so, I would probably be one of those good students in a professional program that would be able to be succesful and attain an APA-internship? Unless of course I am wrong and it is more a matter of luck what happens after getting a non-reputable Psy.D.
Of course I can also see the huge potential for throwing away tens of thousands on a professional program if it really doesn't work out. I see this darker side that the professional school has on the individual of robbing their money and their time. And it saddens me that that can happen to a person. But since it seems that people can be succesful after attending such programs, and there must be reasons for this, it seems to me an over-simplification to just say that it is bad for someone to attend one because on average there are worse job prospects and there is more debt involved.
Perhaps an M.A. or an M.S.W. would serve those of us better who primarily want to perform therapy, but of course there is a certain level of debt involved with those degrees as well and the lowered salary may take its toll and make it a worse investment over time.
But to conclude, the question I am asking is, does attending a professional program ALWAYS have negative expected value attached to it for a student who may be capable of being admitted to a Ph.D. program, or does it vary according to the capabilities of the individual and can those capabilities be predicted. I would also like to say, that while I agree that professional schools negatively impact YOUR profession, I am not yet a part of that profession and am looking toward MY profession and how I can make a difference in the world. Please feel free to rip my perspective to shreds if you can tell me how I'm wrong; I claim to know very little about these issues. But it is possible that others out there in similar situations see this from the same angle I do.
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