How bad does a Pass look?

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Foot Fetish

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Long story short -- I just got my first grade of "Pass" in a third year clerkship. Prior to this, I had only Honors. I have already initiated the appeal process because I am fairly sure they made a mistake in grading...but if that fails, how bad would a single pass look if the rest of the grades are mostly Honors? For the record, this Pass was in a rotation that is totally unrelated to my desired specialty (derm). I have already secured an H in IM, which I believe is regarded as the most important one to Honor for derm...

Also, the Pass was not due to any behavioral or professionalism issue. I just messed up the shelf, but my evals are above average.
 
Clearly you're not getting into derm now, brah. Better start preparing for life as North Dakota FM.

/s

cant we respond in good faith? The user is applying derm with unknown board scores. A straight pass on a rotation could reasonably be seen as an eyebrow raiser.

I know you probably meant it as a light joke, but this is something that pops up so frequently on sdn
 
cant we respond in good faith? The user is applying derm with unknown board scores. A straight pass on a rotation could reasonably be seen as an eyebrow raiser.

I know you probably meant it as a light joke, but this is something that pops up so frequently on sdn

Thank you for your good faith reply.

For the record, my Step 1 score is in the 255-260 range. I have not taken Step 2 yet. My research output has been strong.
 
Yeah idunno what to say--obviously P isn't great for super competitive specialties. When you're getting measured against a bunch of other hyper-competitive applicants, everything matters. But one P is unlikely to kill you.

At the end of the day, you're doing what you can to ensure that you got the right grade, and beyond that there's not much to be done.
 
Are you AOA? That can easily trump an errant less than stellar grade in Derm.

A friend of mine who also went into derm was asked several times at interviews “so why aren’t you AOA?”

A lot of PDs see this as a quick and dirty (and lazy) way of seeing that you are “vouched for” overall.
 
Are you AOA? That can easily trump an errant less than stellar grade in Derm.

A friend of mine who also went into derm was asked several times at interviews “so why aren’t you AOA?”

A lot of PDs see this as a quick and dirty (and lazy) way of seeing that you are “vouched for” overall.

Probably a dumb question. Is it a disadvantage if your school doesnt do AOA for things like derm/neurosurg? Or do interviewers just ignore AOA at that point.
 
Probably a dumb question. Is it a disadvantage if your school doesnt do AOA for things like derm/neurosurg? Or do interviewers just ignore AOA at that point.

Unfortunately that really sucks and is a disadvantage. Programs are far too busy to figure out which schools don't do AOA and then mentally adjust for it and give applicants extra slack in the application process. They're just going to see "not AOA" and take it at face value, likely without even considering that it was never offered to begin with. Not fair at all, but shame on your school for hurting it's own students like that.

I mean if you go to Harvard medical school and there's no AOA, it probably doesn't matter in the slightest. Perks of being top 10, I guess...

But if you're coming from a mid-tier/state school and you don't have AOA for derm or plastics it looks terrible. It is shocking how much value is placed on AOA, especially looking at how many interviews people get. AOA people with similar stats got almost double the interviews of the people without it this year. Apparently some dermatology programs also screen by AOA.
 
Thank you for your good faith reply.

For the record, my Step 1 score is in the 255-260 range. I have not taken Step 2 yet. My research output has been strong.
Weren't you going to get a 270 with all the FA memorization?? Either way, nice work on Step 1. I wouldn't worry about the pass as long as you can explain it and it doesn't hurt you for AOA at your school, which it might.
 
Unfortunately that really sucks and is a disadvantage. Programs are far too busy to figure out which schools don't do AOA and then mentally adjust for it and give applicants extra slack in the application process. They're just going to see "not AOA" and take it at face value, likely without even considering that it was never offered to begin with. Not fair at all, but shame on your school for hurting it's own students like that.

I mean if you go to Harvard medical school and there's no AOA, it probably doesn't matter in the slightest. Perks of being top 10, I guess...

But if you're coming from a mid-tier/state school and you don't have AOA for derm or plastics it looks terrible. It is shocking how much value is placed on AOA, especially looking at how many interviews people get. AOA people with similar stats got almost double the interviews of the people without it this year. Apparently some dermatology programs also screen by AOA.

At my school, AOA is determined by number or Honors in third year clerkships plus some "soft" criteria that they keep hush about, which I'm guessing is just research, leadership roles, community service, etc.

Based on the wording of the AOA criteria, it sounds like P vs. HP doesn't matter, as the differentiation will be made based on number of Honors only. I could see HPs coming into play in the event of a tie-breaker. The bottom line is that it is better to have more Hs and some Ps versus less Hs and the rest HPs. I'm not sure what the distribution of Honors will be among my classmates, but I can't imagine that a lot of people will be able to say that they got "mostly Honors," so I am probably in a good position for AOA as long as my "soft" criteria stack up appropriately.
 
Weren't you going to get a 270 with all the FA memorization?? Either way, nice work on Step 1. I wouldn't worry about the pass as long as you can explain it and it doesn't hurt you for AOA at your school, which it might.

Thank you for your support. As I've grown older and wiser, I've realized I was never the 270 student. I wasn't the straight Honor student either, apparently. But I was always close enough for my purposes. Is there a better way to go about preparing for Step 1 than focusing heavily on rote memorization? Surely. But my way worked well enough. Likewise, for residency, I don't need to go to the "top" programs. At the end of the day, I just want to be a board-certified dermatologist. As I mentioned in my previous post, the proceedings of my institutions AOA remain a bit cryptic to me, but I interview well and would feel confident if I can just get my foot in the door at a few places (no pun intended)
 
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Probably a dumb question. Is it a disadvantage if your school doesnt do AOA for things like derm/neurosurg? Or do interviewers just ignore AOA at that point.

It’s not a disadvantage, a lot of top schools don’t have AOA and if it comes up in interviews you just say your school doesn’t have AOA. Relatively minor issue.
 
Unfortunately that really sucks and is a disadvantage. Programs are far too busy to figure out which schools don't do AOA and then mentally adjust for it and give applicants extra slack in the application process. They're just going to see "not AOA" and take it at face value, likely without even considering that it was never offered to begin with. Not fair at all, but shame on your school for hurting it's own students like that.

I mean if you go to Harvard medical school and there's no AOA, it probably doesn't matter in the slightest. Perks of being top 10, I guess...

But if you're coming from a mid-tier/state school and you don't have AOA for derm or plastics it looks terrible. It is shocking how much value is placed on AOA, especially looking at how many interviews people get. AOA people with similar stats got almost double the interviews of the people without it this year. Apparently some dermatology programs also screen by AOA.

This seems extreme. What are you basing this on?
 
It’s not a disadvantage, a lot of top schools don’t have AOA and if it comes up in interviews you just say your school doesn’t have AOA. Relatively minor issue.

The problem isn't it coming up in interviews, the problem is not getting an interview in the first place because you don't have AOA. Once you're at an interview I don't really think they care a whole lot about AOA, at that point I think a lot of the personal factors come into play and who they see themselves working with.

This seems extreme. What are you basing this on?

Data seems to be pretty strong for this.

Use Derm data from 2016

AOA = 88% match rate
No AOA = 69% match rate

Then think about how even further skewed the data would be if you removed all applicants from Top 20 schools that don't offer AOA... The No AOA match rate would probably be closer to 50% but that's pure conjecture.

AOA is a major advantage for a select few specialties, such as neurosurgery, ENT, Plastic Surgery, and Dermatology. I don't think many other specialties care much about AOA, but the one's that do put a lot of weight on it.

EDIT:
Plastic surgery 92% vs 63%
Neurosurgery 90% vs 67%
 
The problem isn't it coming up in interviews, the problem is not getting an interview in the first place because you don't have AOA. Once you're at an interview I don't really think they care a whole lot about AOA, at that point I think a lot of the personal factors come into play and who they see themselves working with.



Data seems to be pretty strong for this.

Use Derm data from 2016

AOA = 88% match rate
No AOA = 69% match rate

Then think about how even further skewed the data would be if you removed all applicants from Top 20 schools that don't offer AOA... The No AOA match rate would probably be closer to 50% but that's pure conjecture.

AOA is a major advantage for a select few specialties, such as neurosurgery, ENT, Plastic Surgery, and Dermatology. I don't think many other specialties care much about AOA, but the one's that do put a lot of weight on it.

EDIT:
Plastic surgery 92% vs 63%
Neurosurgery 90% vs 67%

But that data does not discuss the possibility of students being at a school without AOA. I think the only way to figure it out truly is to do a correlation between interview rates and Step 1/2 score in students with AOA versus students at non-AOA schools

would be nice to hear from a PD tho
 
The problem isn't it coming up in interviews, the problem is not getting an interview in the first place because you don't have AOA. Once you're at an interview I don't really think they care a whole lot about AOA, at that point I think a lot of the personal factors come into play and who they see themselves working with.



Data seems to be pretty strong for this.

Use Derm data from 2016

AOA = 88% match rate
No AOA = 69% match rate

Then think about how even further skewed the data would be if you removed all applicants from Top 20 schools that don't offer AOA... The No AOA match rate would probably be closer to 50% but that's pure conjecture.

AOA is a major advantage for a select few specialties, such as neurosurgery, ENT, Plastic Surgery, and Dermatology. I don't think many other specialties care much about AOA, but the one's that do put a lot of weight on it.

EDIT:
Plastic surgery 92% vs 63%
Neurosurgery 90% vs 67%

I think it's hard to draw these types of conclusions without looking at the whole picture. From Charting Outcomes, we get a bit of information, but it's not cross-sectional, so there's not really much we can say from it. Here's some data from the most recent Charting Outcomes where I compare AOA to whether or not the applicant came from a top40 NIH school:

2018 Charting Outcomes for USMD seniors

Derm AOA 91%, non-AOA 74%
Derm top40 90%, non-top40 77%

NSGY AOA 91%, non-AOA 85%
NSGY top40 96%, non-top40 81%

Ortho AOA 93%, non-AOA 78%
Ortho top40 86%, non-top40 83%

ENT AOA 99%, non-AOA 94%
ENT top40 99%, non-top40 95%
(keep in mind this was a weird year for ENT with a very high overall match rate - 2019 numbers will be very different)

Plastics AOA 96%, non-AOA 78%
Plastics top40 89%, non-top40 84%

As you can see, the numbers are relatively similar (with the exceptions of Ortho and Plastics, where it seems like AOA might count for more).

I'm not sure whether or not specific specialties screen for interviews based on AOA. I'm sure some programs in some specialties do, but I don't think across the board any specialty does (or even the majority of programs in any given specialty).

I would agree that not having an AOA chapter at a top 20 school would disadvantage you significantly less than not having an AOA chapter at a non-top school, but I don't think you're at an extreme disadvantage not having an AOA chapter at a non-top school, though it certainly won't help.

I'm also not aware of any non-top schools that don't have an AOA chapter (if you know of any, or know of a list of schools overall, lemme know, I'm pretty curious because I agree it's a bad idea for a non-Harvard type school to just not have AOA unless they're a really new school and haven't had the chance to establish one yet). Another way to figure this out would be to find a non-top 20 school that doesn't have an AOA chapter and see if they've matched anyone into any of these specialties in the past couple of years and where they've matched them.

The other thing I would throw out there just from experience (no numbers, sorry!) is that in at least a couple of these specialties, the school and/or home program you're coming from is more important than whether or not you're AOA.

Finally, if you're at a non-top program without an AOA chapter are you going to be screened out of top programs in these fields? Maybe, probably... but you're also at a disadvantage because you're coming from a not as well known home institution (seriously, look at the percentages of people coming from "top 40 NIH schools" for each of these specialties... it's on the order of 40-50% for ENT/NSG/Derm/Plastics and a little lower for Ortho).

It's a multifactorial problem, but not an insurmountable one, especially if said hypothetical non-top school without an AOA chapter matches frequently into the specialty.
 
But that data does not discuss the possibility of students being at a school without AOA. I think the only way to figure it out truly is to do a correlation between interview rates and Step 1/2 score in students with AOA versus students at non-AOA schools

would be nice to hear from a PD tho

Agreed, this is just speculation so good to have expert perspectives:

@aProgDirector @operaman @OrthoTraumaMD @TMP-SMX
 
Thank you for your support. As I've grown older and wiser, I've realized I was never the 270 student. I wasn't the straight Honor student either, apparently. But I was always close enough for my purposes. Is there a better way to go about preparing for Step 1 than focusing heavily on rote memorization? Surely. But my way worked well enough. Likewise, for residency, I don't need to go to the "top" programs. At the end of the day, I just want to be a board-certified dermatologist. As I mentioned in my previous post, the proceedings of my institutions AOA remain a bit cryptic to me, but I interview well and would feel confident if I can just get my foot in the door at a few places (no pun intended)
I was just messing with you about 270. You did very well on step 1. Just keep plugging away, networking. Try to go to AAD as an MS3 if you can so you can make contacts if possible.
 
I think it's hard to draw these types of conclusions without looking at the whole picture. From Charting Outcomes, we get a bit of information, but it's not cross-sectional...
What do you mean it's not "cross-sectional"?
 
Your step 1 score is good. Do well on your other rotations. AOA helps but not necessary to match at most programs. Your personality, how you interview, and your aways (hope you also have a home program so that's your best bet) are going to be more important after what you've already proven with your Step score. Publications are also helpful so keep working on that as well as networking (go to AAD if you have a chance and present a gross and micro case. Go to the regional dermatologic society meetings and do case write-ups. A single pass doesn't mean you can't match into Derm and I will seriously rethink how our specialty decides on rank lists and interviews if it ever comes to that.
 
The problem isn't it coming up in interviews, the problem is not getting an interview in the first place because you don't have AOA. Once you're at an interview I don't really think they care a whole lot about AOA, at that point I think a lot of the personal factors come into play and who they see themselves working with.



Data seems to be pretty strong for this.

Use Derm data from 2016

AOA = 88% match rate
No AOA = 69% match rate

Then think about how even further skewed the data would be if you removed all applicants from Top 20 schools that don't offer AOA... The No AOA match rate would probably be closer to 50% but that's pure conjecture.

AOA is a major advantage for a select few specialties, such as neurosurgery, ENT, Plastic Surgery, and Dermatology. I don't think many other specialties care much about AOA, but the one's that do put a lot of weight on it.

EDIT:
Plastic surgery 92% vs 63%
Neurosurgery 90% vs 67%

Pretty sure I’ve read before that Penn and Vandy don’t have AOA. I think those students will fair just fine.
 
Well I’m not a PD but I don’t think non-AOA schools are at any real disadvantage. Mostly it’s because those tend to be top tier schools anyhow. Beyond that, AOA is a nice way to say someone is a top student without having to delve too deeply into the rest of their application.
 
Well I’m not a PD but I don’t think non-AOA schools are at any real disadvantage. Mostly it’s because those tend to be top tier schools anyhow. Beyond that, AOA is a nice way to say someone is a top student without having to delve too deeply into the rest of their application.
Especially with multiple applicants from the same school. Even after that, it's some kind of differentiating factor.
 
Especially with multiple applicants from the same school. Even after that, it's some kind of differentiating factor.

Yeah it can be but I don’t think it means that much apart from the rest of the application. Even the studies that tried to look at it are plagued by so many confounders it’s hard to discern what’s real. That said, I’m sure it probably does have some small but significant impact, but hard to say how much beyond the impact of an already AOA-worthy application.

My advice to students would be to find out the AOA selection process at your school early on and keep it in mind as you’re planning your study and other activities. Ours was based heavily on preclinical grades and step 1, with some other weight given to your overall CV. I even met with the faculty counselor for AOA early in first year to talk about it. I thought I was the lone super gunner at first but turns out I was like the 20th person in my class to meet about the same question! I think it’s worth asking though.

For me I knew I had the ability to consistently score at or near the top of the class on exams if I put the time in, so I made the choice to do so. I also made sure to study for step 1 along and along as well and made sure to do research and stay active overall so my CV wouldn’t look lame compared to the others. For others in that situation I think that’s a sensible approach. If I had been more 50th percentile and no really in contention, I may have weighted my time a little more toward step 1 and research to further boost those aspects of my ultimate application to residency.
 
I was just messing with you about 270. You did very well on step 1. Just keep plugging away, networking. Try to go to AAD as an MS3 if you can so you can make contacts if possible.

I know it’s all part of the game, but I witnessed/was a part of several cringe inducing moments this year with medical students (and some residents looking for Mohs fellowships) really brown nosing hard at the AAD.
 
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