how big time is this?

[ultane123]

so i met this 3rd year medical student today who just got a original study published in the New England Journal of Medicine. 2nd author. i'm just curious, how big time is this? everyone was saying that he'd be a slam dunk for top Medicine programs. or at least that he'd get huge interviews.

what do you think?

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[chicamedica]

so i met this 3rd year medical student today who just got a original study published in the New England Journal of Medicine. 2nd author. i'm just curious, how big time is this? everyone was saying that he'd be a slam dunk for top Medicine programs. or at least that he'd get huge interviews.

what do you think?

I think you should focus more on your own portfolio and not be so worried about someone else's accomplishments. Dont forget, every applicant has their own strengths and weaknesses in their applications.

 

[OUsooner]

I hope you dropped to your knees and gave this student the props he/she deserves.

 

[RonaldColeman]

so i met this 3rd year medical student today who just got a original study published in the New England Journal of Medicine. 2nd author. i'm just curious, how big time is this? everyone was saying that he'd be a slam dunk for top Medicine programs. or at least that he'd get huge interviews.

what do you think?

Medical student publications are overrated. I personally feel that they are important only in distinguishing among students of equal class standing. Publications are icing on the cake; they will not make up for an otherwise sub-par application. If the person at your school scored 190 on Step 1, his NEJM publication is worthless. Getting published often speaks more about the luck of an applicant than about his strengths. We all do the same thing as medical student researchers: data collection. We contribute very little to the actual thought behind the experiments. I've worked in labs with people who, honest to God, had absolutely no idea why they were doing a particular set of experiments. They were basically scut monkeys. However, they still published. In the end, it's often a matter of luck--you just hope that you are lucky enough to get a PI who is high output and is willing to put your name on the paper.

 

[SoCuteMD]

We contribute very little to the actual thought behind the experiments.

With all due respect I think this varies widely depending upon the student, the research advisor, and the topic. My research advisor had me do data collection for one study, and then I sat down with the data from that study to find and create a follow-up exercise of my own.

 

[Joel Fleischman]

It also depends on the program, some programs may not be interested unless you have shown the ability/interest in contributing to the lit.

That's where the rank in authorship matters.
With the program directors I have talked to first or seccond counts big time,
basicly anything after that is the same, and last author is reserved for the boss.

For most top programs the quality of the publications will be also considered.

This probably is bigtime, he probably worked his a$$ off for that spot... no (other) faculty member is just going to give up an author spot at an A+++ level journal for some "kid" who just ran some excel spread sheets.... this isnt just some conference abstract or an article in a minor journal like "The international society of science that doesnt matter"

Even if he had a 190 on step 1, this may help... it shows that this student can work and interpret data. It wont necessairily get this person into MGH of JHU but it will help a lot.

 

[Adcadet]

We all do the same thing as medical student researchers: data collection. We contribute very little to the actual thought behind the experiments. I've worked in labs with people who, honest to God, had absolutely no idea why they were doing a particular set of experiments. They were basically scut monkeys. However, they still published.

Maybe you never did anything but be a scut monkey, but there are some who do much more than that. Hopefully residency programs will use letters of recommendations and interviews to figure out who really understands research and who just got lucky.

 

[tibor75]

Medical student publications are overrated. I personally feel that they are important only in distinguishing among students of equal class standing. Publications are icing on the cake; they will not make up for an otherwise sub-par application. If the person at your school scored 190 on Step 1, his NEJM publication is worthless. Getting published often speaks more about the luck of an applicant than about his strengths. We all do the same thing as medical student researchers: data collection. We contribute very little to the actual thought behind the experiments. I've worked in labs with people who, honest to God, had absolutely no idea why they were doing a particular set of experiments. They were basically scut monkeys. However, they still published. In the end, it's often a matter of luck--you just hope that you are lucky enough to get a PI who is high output and is willing to put your name on the paper.

 

[RonaldColeman]

Maybe you never did anything but be a scut monkey, but there are some who do much more than that. Hopefully residency programs will use letters of recommendations and interviews to figure out who really understands research and who just got lucky.

If you are doing clinical research, which a large percentage of medical students do, you contribute very little to the thought behind the project. Not because you are lazy, stupid, etc.; it's just the nature of clinical research. A trained monkey can do clinical research! Look at the latest issue of NEJM. One of the studies is basically an epidemiological study on the link between bmi and GERD. Another is a comparison of two preexisting modalities in the diagnosis of pulmonary embolism. This isn't rocket science, my friends. Important? Yes. Conceptually difficult? No.

Now, if you do basic science research, then you do have some opportunity to contribute. Articles in Nature, Science, etc. are the real deal. You're talking about hardcore science here. But seriously--how many of us really have the knowledge to contribute to this type of research? Even experienced graduate students struggle with articles in these journals.

I stand by my opinion that most medical student research is data collection and nothing more.

 

[P Diddy]

A trained monkey can do clinical research! This isn't rocket science, my friends. Important? Yes. Conceptually difficult? No.

I stand by my opinion that most medical student research is data collection and nothing more.

if a trained monkey can easily 'do' clinical research, then surely a medical student can do the same.

your understanding of the thought required to construct good clinical research echoes that of simian intelligence. to publish in the NEJM is no mean feat, unless it's one of the fluff medical mystery articles that are solicited. to be placed as second author in an article requires one to perform more than mere data collection.

i look forward to seeing the influx of articles in the NEJM written under your name as evidence of the ease of publication of clinical research and the lack of intelligence required for the same.

p diddy

 

[inositide]

Perhaps the original thread author is referring to himself/herself as the person who has just had a publication accepted to NEJM. If so, then congratulations to you.

 

[Poety]

Perhaps the original thread author is referring to himself/herself as the person who has just had a publication accepted to NEJM. If so, then congratulations to you.

I was thinking the same thing. And its no small accomplishment, congratulations.

Second, RonaldColeman, you have seriously got some issues to work out - you're always so negative, and putting everyone else down, do you have some type of inferiority complex or what? At least yoru behavior is consistent... consistently derogatory

 

[8744]

so i met this 3rd year medical student today who just got a original study published in the New England Journal of Medicine. 2nd author. i'm just curious, how big time is this? everyone was saying that he'd be a slam dunk for top Medicine programs. or at least that he'd get huge interviews.

what do you think?

Hi.

It's not big time at all unless you're published in a journal that's actually read. I bet my letters to the editor of "Bootilicious Tatas" or it's sister publication "Big, Bad, Mama Jama" are read by more people.

Who actually reads the NEJM? Or JAMA? Dude, they need to put in some naked Doctor chicks so people can say, "I just subscribe for the articles."

Glad I could help.

 

[RxnMan]

Several PDs I've spoken to say that pubs only serve to distinguish applicants from each other. This is especially true in highly competitive residencies where all of the applicant's #s will be stellar. From what you've written, I'd assume that this student already has a pretty competitive CV, so this will add to it, not make up for a shortcoming (i.e., just authoring an article doesn't make it possible for them to go to JH IM).

NEJM is well-known, but it's value (to the resident selection board) is more that he/she got published at all. Within that, I'd say it's more important to be involved in the project (don't be a lab monkey!) and he/she should be able to speak intelligently about it. This can be inferred by author listing, but again, it's not as important as having a pub in the first place.

 

[8744]

Several PDs I've spoken to say that pubs only serve to distinguish applicants from each other. This is especially true in highly competitive residencies where all of the applicant's #s will be stellar. From what you've written, I'd assume that this student already has a pretty competitive CV, so this will add to it, not make up for a shortcoming (i.e., just authoring an article doesn't make it possible for them to go to JH IM).

NEJM is well-known, but it's value (to the resident selection board) is more that he/she got published at all. Within that, I'd say it's more important to be involved in the project (don't be a lab monkey!) and he/she should be able to speak intelligently about it. This can be inferred by author listing, but again, it's not as important as having a pub in the first place.

Can we please stop using "he/she." It's Okay to pick "he" or "she" and then just go with it. Anybody who is offended by the use of the word "he" used generally deserves to be ofended and doing so is a rare pleasure.

He/she is what some people call hermaphrodites.

 

[RxnMan]

Can we please stop using "he/she." It's Okay to pick "he" or "she" and then just go with it. Anybody who is offended by the use of the word "he" used generally deserves to be ofended and doing so is a rare pleasure.

He/she is what some people call hermaphrodites.

Didn't mean to offend your sensibilities.

It's better to use the indefinite 'she,' but that confuses most people, so I split the difference.

I generally refer to she/he/its as something else entirely.

Seriously, though, your blog is a great read. Keep it up!

 

[digimon]

What article? In what Issue? I'd love to read it.

I think it's a huge accomplishment. I'd definitely make it stand out in your CV. The only downside is that future research will always be compared to this. 2nd author on a NEJM paper is pretty hard to top

 

[Adcadet]

If you are doing clinical research, which a large percentage of medical students do, you contribute very little to the thought behind the project

I'm sure many med students contribute very little, but there most certainly some who do a lot more than just "monkey work." I'm sorry that you haven't seen this first-hand. Perhaps you're basing your conclusions on an inappropriate analysis; too small a sample size (how many students have honestly told you what they do?), selection bias (those doing clinical research avoid you and your ignorant comments), time bias (it can take a while to get an article published), loss to follow up (those doing good research get thell hell out of where ever it is that you are), misclassification (do you call really good clinical research "basic research"?)

Now, if you do basic science research, then you do have some opportunity to contribute.

As if there aren't tons of students being a lab monkey? I suspect there are tons more students acting as basic research slaves than clinical research slaves.

Articles in Nature, Science, etc. are the real deal. You're talking about hardcore science here.

To call basic research more "hardcore" than other types is just ignorant. The theoretical thinking required in much of clinical research, clinical epidemiology, and straight-up epidemiology is much more difficult than most (all?) of that required in the basic sciences (at least in the life sciences). G-protein signalling is complicated, but it's pretty straight forward stuff.

But seriously--how many of us really have the knowledge to contribute to this type of research?

Not many (regardless of what type of research it is), which is why it's impressive.

Even experienced graduate students struggle with articles in these journals.

Experienced people struggle with good articles in any field.

I stand by my opinion that most medical student research is data collection and nothing more.

Sure, some students get put on papers for just doing grunt work. But there are many who make meaningful contributions, and leave medical school ready to go into residencies and fellowships ready to continue doing good research, and eventually into academic jobs.

 

[RonaldColeman]

I'm sure many med students contribute very little, but there most certainly some who do a lot more than just "monkey work." I'm sorry that you haven't seen this first-hand. Perhaps you're basing your conclusions on an inappropriate analysis; too small a sample size (how many students have honestly told you what they do?), selection bias (those doing clinical research avoid you and your ignorant comments), time bias (it can take a while to get an article published), loss to follow up (those doing good research get thell hell out of where ever it is that you are), misclassification (do you call really good clinical research "basic research"?)



As if there aren't tons of students being a lab monkey? I suspect there are tons more students acting as basic research slaves than clinical research slaves.



To call basic research more "hardcore" than other types is just ignorant. The theoretical thinking required in much of clinical research, clinical epidemiology, and straight-up epidemiology is much more difficult than most (all?) of that required in the basic sciences (at least in the life sciences). G-protein signalling is complicated, but it's pretty straight forward stuff.


Not many (regardless of what type of research it is), which is why it's impressive.

Experienced people struggle with good articles in any field.


Sure, some students get put on papers for just doing grunt work. But there are many who make meaningful contributions, and leave medical school ready to go into residencies and fellowships ready to continue doing good research, and eventually into academic jobs.

I'm not saying that it is impossible for medical students to contribute to research projects. I agree that there are most certainly students contributing more than just "monkey work." I just believe that they do not contribute substantially to the thought behind their projects. I worked around graduate students in 3 different labs all 4 years of college. I never met one first-year graduate student who had a thorough enough grasp of the literature to contribute substantially to the thought behind the experiments he was performing--and these guys were reading journal articles every day. It takes time to become acquainted with the literature in your field. Amid coursework the first two years of medical school, studying for USMLEs, and 3rd year rotations, what medical student (excluding MD/PhDs) has the time to do the literature review necessary to really understand their field and make substantial contributions to the thought behind their experiments? And let me clarify what I mean by "substantial." By "substantial," I am talking about having the knowledge to carry out independent research that is of a high enough quality to be published. This is what would make a publication "big-time" for a medical student and would serve to distinguish one medical student from another. Anything that you do independently--publish independent research, score 260 on step1, graduate AOA, etc.--will carry more weight in the residency selection process than something dependent on the contributions of others. Publications are nice, but unless they are your own original work, I do not think they make you "big-time" like high USMLEs, AOA, etc. since so much of your ability to publish depends on others, particularly the PI you are working with. That's what I have been trying to say all of this time.

 

[radonc]

everyone should stop 'hatin' and give 'props' to people who put time, effort, energy, and hard work into research that not only gets published, but gets published in world-class journals.

 

[RonaldColeman]

everyone should stop 'hatin' and give 'props' to people who put time, effort, energy, and hard work into research that not only gets published, but gets published in world-class journals.

I totally agree. I probably could have been a little more tactful earlier. (I didn't mean to degrade clinical research, although I still don't think it is as difficult as basic science stuff). My main point is that research can be important, but only under certain circumstances would it be considered "big time." This would be when one can show that they made a substantial individual contribution to the work.

 

[Flopotomist]

Can we please stop using "he/she." It's Okay to pick "he" or "she" and then just go with it. Anybody who is offended by the use of the word "he" used generally deserves to be ofended and doing so is a rare pleasure.

He/she is what some people call hermaphrodites.

I have always like the creative "s/he" solution.

 

[mellowmarshall]

Publishing has to do with popularity; How interested is the target audience in what is being published? That's what drives publishers. It may not be the most revolutionary article, but it may be an article that the Journal thinks will interest its readers.

If OP's med student author is a desirable student, its because he excels in other areas, or all of them.

 

[cchoukal]

Several PDs I've spoken to say that pubs only serve to distinguish applicants from each other. This is especially true in highly competitive residencies where all of the applicant's #s will be stellar.

Isn't this exactly the point? I mean, isn't buffing the ap with things like pubs, committees, etc., specifically aimed at distinguishing yourself from other applicants? Mission accomplished, I say.

 

[RonaldColeman]

Isn't this exactly the point? I mean, isn't buffing the ap with things like pubs, committees, etc., specifically aimed at distinguishing yourself from other applicants? Mission accomplished, I say.

Yes and No. Yes, it helps you to distinguish yourself. No, it is not a guaranteed interview at all of the top medicine programs like the OP suggests.

 

[secretwave101]

Medical student publications are overrated. I personally feel that they are important only in distinguishing among students of equal class standing. Publications are icing on the cake; they will not make up for an otherwise sub-par application. If the person at your school scored 190 on Step 1, his NEJM publication is worthless. Getting published often speaks more about the luck of an applicant than about his strengths. We all do the same thing as medical student researchers: data collection. We contribute very little to the actual thought behind the experiments. I've worked in labs with people who, honest to God, had absolutely no idea why they were doing a particular set of experiments. They were basically scut monkeys. However, they still published. In the end, it's often a matter of luck--you just hope that you are lucky enough to get a PI who is high output and is willing to put your name on the paper.

The biggest value to publications is that it gives a great discussion point for residency interviews. If you were a scut monkey, it'll come out. If you really learned something, though, it will really help distinguish you from among the field of applicants who are essentially saying the same thing as each other.