How brutal is psychiatry?

[KoolKeith]

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Hi all, I am a nontrad student admitted to start an MD program in the fall. I have a strong interest in pursuing psychiatry after working in a psych hospital for several years. However, I am now having some second thoughts about going back to school after reading the forums here and articles elsewhere that describe medical school and training as brutal and soul crushing. I have a wife and baby that I adore and would never forgive myself for going down this path if my family were destroyed in the process.

The main reason I want to go back to school is an interest in the material, and increased autonomy and job satisfaction. I am not motivated by finance, I already make almost as much as some physicians though my work is mind numbing. My hours now are all over the place. In the last couple years I've worked from 40-90 hours/week including alternating nights and days. We survived although I will admit there were difficult times. I know that the decision is mine but would appreciate some reassurance that perhaps there are some fields of medicine such as psychiatry that will not tear my family apart due to work related strain.

 

[vitamin H]

Hi all, I am a nontrad student admitted to start an MD program in the fall. I have a strong interest in pursuing psychiatry after working in a psych hospital for several years. However, I am now having some second thoughts about going back to school after reading the forums here and articles elsewhere that describe medical school and training as brutal and soul crushing. I have a wife and baby that I adore and would never forgive myself for going down this path if my family were destroyed in the process.

The main reason I want to go back to school is an interest in the material, and increased autonomy and job satisfaction. I am not motivated by finance, I already make almost as much as some physicians though my work is mind numbing. My hours now are all over the place. In the last couple years I've worked from 40-90 hours/week including alternating nights and days. We survived although I will admit there were difficult times. I know that the decision is mine but would appreciate some reassurance that perhaps there are some fields of medicine such as psychiatry that will not tear my family apart due to work related strain.

Current applicant to psychiatry residency here. I also started medical school thinking psychiatry, and in my experience 95% of my time in medical school was spent learning and being exposed to non psychiatric fields and working with non psychiatrists. I love psychiatry and I'm grateful to finally be able to pursue it full time (after my 6 months of off service time in residency), but entering medical school with the intention of pursuing psychiatry is tougher then you realize. If I were you, I'd try to find a job with a better work life balance in your own field so that you could enjoy your time with your family.

 

[wolfvgang22]

I was a nontraditional student with a family also, and I went to med school just to become a psychiatrist. If you are truly driven to become a psychiatrist you can do it. Yes, it is hard, and yes you must become a physician before you can become a psychiatrist. If your spouse is supportive you can make it because he or she will need to support you a lot and have to make sacrifices as you train.

 

[Merovinge]

Psychiatry wont tear you down after 4 years of med school and maybe the first 2 years of residency but the question is if those 6 years are worth. For a select few the answer is yes. For many others a SW path to LCSW if you just like mental health exclusively or a PA training make a lot more sense. Many PAs and LCSWs go home when their shift says it ends. Doctors don't eat lunch. (That's a partial exaggeration, but largely true, expectations will be different of you your whole career as a MD).

 

[KoolKeith]

Psychiatry wont tear you down after 4 years of med school and maybe the first 2 years of residency but the question is if those 6 years are worth. For a select few the answer is yes. For many others a SW path to LCSW if you just like mental health exclusively or a PA training make a lot more sense. Many PAs and LCSWs go home when their shift says it ends. Doctors don't eat lunch. (That's a partial exaggeration, but largely true, expectations will be different of you your whole career as a MD).

Thanks to all for the replies. Med school or perhaps PA are really the only paths that I am interested in. I am a pharmacist looking for broader knowledge and autonomy so leaving one limited career for another like LCSW isn't a good option for me.

 

[Merovinge]

Thanks to all for the replies. Med school or perhaps PA are really the only paths that I am interested in. I am a pharmacist looking for broader knowledge and autonomy so leaving one limited career for another like LCSW isn't a good option for me.

Honestly LCSW's have more training/autonomy when it comes to doing therapy, although if you are already a pharmacist it would be weird to leave meds out of it.

Personally, since you are already trained to the terminal path of your field, I would just find a way to do psychiatry pharmacy work. We had an exclusively psych pharmacist at the VA I trained at and she was great! Her knowledge of psychotropics was at or better than most of my attendings and was able to help out the inpatient and CL team along with putting monitoring programs and such in place (although many psychiatrists hate this, I like a pharmacist looking over things). You could also potentially get involved in industry, it's a dirty bedfellow but also responsible for a lot of good. I'm sure you already thought about this but just some random musings.

 

[st2205]

I'll respond with a little more detail later but have you considered a psychiatric pharmacy residency? That would only be two years (if you haven't already done a PGYI), you'd get paid and it may give you a bit more of what you're looking for. The VA is really expanding the role of BCPPs and you follow your own clinic patients. You could then get a masters in some kind of counseling on your own time if you wanted a bit more exposure to therapy.

 

[LasVagus]

For me psychiatry residency hasn't been brutal, but medical school was. This was, in part, because I wasn't that interested in most areas of medicine outside of psychiatry. I had to spend so much time and so much intellectual energy over so many years on subjects that I often found painfully boring (biochemical pathways, histopathological eponyms, etc.). It's a tedious, tedious grind.

For what it's worth, I personally would not have been able to pull off medical school if I had had children at the time. There were so many long stretches in medical school where I couldn't spare a free second to do anything other than study for weeks at a time. Lots of people (much smarter than I am) have pulled off the medical student/parent double. It certainly can be done. And given that you already have advanced knowledge of pharmacology, you may be just the type to do it.

However, if you're asking what field of medicine has the most manageable residency, psychiatry is probably pretty close. It's all in what you put into it. For example, by third year at my residency you can get out at 4:00 PM everyday that you're not on call (and you're only on call three days a month) if that's what you're determined to do. But that's six years away from where you are now.

 

[Armadillos]

I would second the psych pharmacy residency, seems like an interesting job and would be much less taxing path.

 

[vernhart]

PsyD is another route to look into (it would likely involve a pay-cut, but if that isn't a problem then you might check it out)

 

[smalltownpsych]

PsyD is another route to look into (it would likely involve a pay-cut, but if that isn't a problem then you might check it out)

As OP is already accepted to med school, shifting to be a psychologist at this point would be an extremely difficult move to make and probably not worth it for their situation.

 

[st2205]

PsyD is another route to look into (it would likely involve a pay-cut, but if that isn't a problem then you might check it out)

This would put an enormous financial burden on OP's family to ultimately take a significant pay cut and they'd be done with training approximately the same time.

 

[vernhart]

This would put an enormous financial burden on OP's family to ultimately take a significant pay cut and they'd be done with training approximately the same time.

hence the content in the parentheses...you don't know the financial situation-just threw out an option just in case it WAS an option. I am aware of the financial implications (which I believe I made clear). To spend 4 years in medical school, followed by residency will be the same burden on the family if not much worse (granted the payoff is not the same-but I addressed this)

 

[smalltownpsych]

hence the content in the parentheses...you don't know the financial situation-just threw out an option just in case it WAS an option. I am aware of the financial implications (which I believe I made clear). To spend 4 years in medical school, followed by residency will be the same burden on the family if not much worse (granted the payoff is not the same-but I addressed this)

You might be underestimating what would need to be done to become a psychologist. To get into a legitimate doctoral program, the OP would probably need to get some research and/or clinical experience which could take from 1 to 3 years. Then 5 or 6 years until they get the doctorate and another year of post-doc before getting licensed. Looking at 7 to 10 years before they get a chance at making 80k per year. I graduated from undergrad with the clear intent of becoming a clinical psychologist in 1999 and I got my license to practice in 2009. Not saying this to try invalidate your post in any way, but more to clarify what is involved in becoming a psychologist since it is underestimated and misunderstood by so many prospective students.

 

[st2205]

We entered medical school with a 1-year-old. We had another one the middle of second year and then we've had two more while in residency. I was interested in psychiatry before medical school and prior to getting married I knew that path would put some strain on family so I plowed through undergrad at an incredibly fast pace to get on the long conveyor belt that is medical training. Medical school was okay. Kind of. In undergrad I was working and typically taking about 20 credits each semester year-round. Because of my short time in college, I had to pack in all that nonsense extracurriculars along the way with that. I felt like people bitching about how hard medical school was, while true, were doing so to wear a badge of honor and also likely out of a lack of other real-world perspective. I figured that doing medical school would simplify things because I'd have one job instead of multiple. This ended up being both true and not true. I spent more time studying for each regular exam in medical school than I spent studying for any final exam in undergrad. The first 6 months were a bit of an adjustment. My goals going in were to make sure I passed everything but I wasn't shooting to be the top of the class as I wanted to maintain as much of a semblance of a family life as possible. It necessitated doing a large amount of test study overnights. After the first few months of adjusting things got a lot easier because of knowing how to handle and balance it.

On the good side is there was a lot more flexibility of schedule outside of some required labs. I never went to lecture which was quite helpful. We lived in a small town that had an amazing cost of living. I lived 5 minutes from school. Because it was a small town with not much else to do, there was a strong spouse alliance organization that my wife was involved in. Those two years definitely had their unique stresses but we got through and have good memories about it. We ended up going back home for clinical rotations and this was a good experience. I found those two years, particularly 4th year, enjoyable moreso compared to the first two. I know this isn't the case a lot of the time with people and my rotations were much more family friendly as a lot were preceptor based, which there's a stigma against, but in our case it worked out great for a multitude of reasons that go far beyond this. The good thing about rotations is if you hate what you do, you'll only do it a month before a switch.

Psychiatry residency is among the most benign. There are a good deal of programs out there that offer more reasonable hours. If you've been working random hours as a pharmacist and putting in up to 90 hours a week then maybe this is improvement. The first couple years it was really just the call and nightfloat that was challenging balancing with family. Wasn't a huge fan of that. But now that's done and I haven't taken call for over a year, sans moonlighting.

Anyway, this is a lengthy process. The further I got along in training the more I thought about a psych NP in hindsight, though not that I would have realistically ever chosen that. From a purely practical point of view it's a very short path to a very stable career that makes decent money. From a professional satisfaction and knowledge standpoint there's no comparison. But simply from a family balance it is reasonably appealing, at least in the short- and mid-term. Now that I'm finishing and have taken my first gig, there's no match to the flexibility, compensation, freedom and professional/educational satisfaction between the two but this was a long time coming and quite expensive.

All this being said, if I were in your shoes (I'm not giving advice on this at all, just saying that if it was me in your situation) I would lean heavily to just doing two years of psychiatric pharmacy residency. I say that from the point of if I already had a PharmD when my first kid was around, that the long sacrifice of becoming a psychiatrist would significantly hamper just being able to get on with life in a reasonably comparable specialty (BCPP). If I could already make 6 figures without taking that 8 year path then I probably would. That's just simply from my perspective and all the variables I'd use to calculate my decision would vary significantly from you or anyone else.

However, you've got an acceptance to medical school, so there's that. If you just want to know if you can maintain some normal semblance of family life then the answer is yes. There are going to be a lot of rough spots in there and it's going to add up over time and be exhausting. I'm sure working 40-90 hours a week and working evening/night shifts as a pharmacist would be exhausting and add up over time, too.

 

[KoolKeith]

Appreciate the suggestions regarding psyD and pharmacy psych residency. I had considered psyD before I went to pharmacy school but the cost:return seemed inflated and the quality of education seemed inconsistent. I also wouldn't get to use my pharm knowledge.

I considered psych pharm residency during pharmacy school but I ended up taking a good job opportunity. In my experience pure clinical psych pharm jobs are unicorns that are usually only found in major metro areas depending on the strength of the pharmacy dept at a given med center. For instance, I work at 3 different AMCs in CA and none have any psych pharmacists. I would have to go to LA or SF to find anything which is not where I'd prefer to raise my family. My wife and I were hoping to end up near my family in the rural Midwest or at least have the flexibility to do so. From what I've heard psychiatry would provide more opportunities in this situation.


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[WisNeuro]

Many PsyDs are too costly for not enough return. Better off going to a fully funded PhD program if you want that route. Might as well have the program pay all of your tuition costs and get a stipend if you're going to put in the work. Also, it opens up many more doors.

 

[vernhart]

Appreciate the suggestions regarding psyD and pharmacy psych residency. I had considered psyD before I went to pharmacy school but the cost:return seemed inflated and the quality of education seemed inconsistent. I also wouldn't get to use my pharm knowledge.

I considered psych pharm residency during pharmacy school but I ended up taking a good job opportunity. In my experience pure clinical psych pharm jobs are unicorns that are usually only found in major metro areas depending on the strength of the pharmacy dept at a given med center. For instance, I work at 3 different AMCs in CA and none have any psych pharmacists. I would have to go to LA or SF to find anything which is not where I'd prefer to raise my family. My wife and I were hoping to end up near my family in the rural Midwest or at least have the flexibility to do so. From what I've heard psychiatry would provide more opportunities in this situation.


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In this case I would say PA and focus on psych. Around 2 years training, cheaper, and less of a pay-cut. I was more trying to find some schooling that would be more focused on what you are interested in (I misinterpreted your post, thinking you weren't so into pharm bc of your description of your job). If your family can tough out the 8 years ahead then of course financially psychiatrist would be the best.

You might be underestimating what would need to be done to become a psychologist. To get into a legitimate doctoral program, the OP would probably need to get some research and/or clinical experience which could take from 1 to 3 years. Then 5 or 6 years until they get the doctorate and another year of post-doc before getting licensed. Looking at 7 to 10 years before they get a chance at making 80k per year. I graduated from undergrad with the clear intent of becoming a clinical psychologist in 1999 and I got my license to practice in 2009. Not saying this to try invalidate your post in any way, but more to clarify what is involved in becoming a psychologist since it is underestimated and misunderstood by so many prospective students.

Thank you for your reply. When I was looking into psych grad programs I was under the impression that long of a time period was only the PhD route, but thank you for clarifying.

 

[st2205]

Appreciate the suggestions regarding psyD and pharmacy psych residency. I had considered psyD before I went to pharmacy school but the cost:return seemed inflated and the quality of education seemed inconsistent. I also wouldn't get to use my pharm knowledge.

I considered psych pharm residency during pharmacy school but I ended up taking a good job opportunity. In my experience pure clinical psych pharm jobs are unicorns that are usually only found in major metro areas depending on the strength of the pharmacy dept at a given med center. For instance, I work at 3 different AMCs in CA and none have any psych pharmacists. I would have to go to LA or SF to find anything which is not where I'd prefer to raise my family. My wife and I were hoping to end up near my family in the rural Midwest or at least have the flexibility to do so. From what I've heard psychiatry would provide more opportunities in this situation.


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You'll only find purely clinical psych pharm jobs within the VA because that's the only system where they can prescribe. Rural Midwest is where you would probably find those jobs.

 

[KoolKeith]

In this case I would say PA and focus on psych. Around 2 years training, cheaper, and less of a pay-cut. I was more trying to find some schooling that would be more focused on what you are interested in (I misinterpreted your post, thinking you weren't so into pharm bc of your description of your job). If your family can tough out the 8 years ahead then of course financially psychiatrist would be the best.



Thank you for your reply. When I was looking into psych grad programs I was under the impression that long of a time period was only the PhD route, but thank you for clarifying.

Thanks for the suggestions. I think you're right, PA would be a much more practical choice. I do worry that I wouldn't know as much as an MD resulting in lower quality care for patients. I don't necessarily like doing things halfway and that's the impression I get of midlevel provider education. It definitely would be better for my family life though.

I do like the pharmacology/physio/micro aspects of my job, i just don't get to use it as much as I'd like. I also don't like not being able to make decisions and the move to turn us into assembly line workers, even in the hospital. The money is really good right now for me working locum/per diem in CA so as long as it holds up I could potentially retire early to get out of the field but it would be hard to pass up med school and wonder "what if". It guess it comes down to not liking my current job, but sticking with it for the money and time with my family or give that up for potentially greater job satisfaction and financial reward but less stability in the short term.

 

[witzelsucht]

dude go to med school. first two years can be managed in 8-10 hour days of hard work if you are a focused, driven grownup. psych is not so competetive you need to be in top 10% of class. you already know pharm and micro which is one of the harder subjects. i had a classmate who was a pharm d who worked like 12 hours a week in preclinical years. 4th year of MS is vacation. suck it up

 

[Merovinge]

Thanks for the suggestions. I think you're right, PA would be a much more practical choice. I do worry that I wouldn't know as much as an MD resulting in lower quality care for patients. I don't necessarily like doing things halfway and that's the impression I get of midlevel provider education. It definitely would be better for my family life though.

I do like the pharmacology/physio/micro aspects of my job, i just don't get to use it as much as I'd like. I also don't like not being able to make decisions and the move to turn us into assembly line workers, even in the hospital. The money is really good right now for me working locum/per diem in CA so as long as it holds up I could potentially retire early to get out of the field but it would be hard to pass up med school and wonder "what if". It guess it comes down to not liking my current job, but sticking with it for the money and time with my family or give that up for potentially greater job satisfaction and financial reward but less stability in the short term.

I really don't think there is a lot to wonder about. I am almost positive you know in your heart if family is #1 or if you need more independence/satisfaction at work to be the best you for your family. The people who do well in medicine really know they needed to be a doctor. If you know that, consult the family and do it if they agree. If you dont, just stay the heck away and enjoy a good upper middle class life with your wife/kids/friends. Medicine has too many increasingly annoying aspects to make it a great suggestion for people looking over a fence at green grass.

 

[postbacpremed87]

I really don't think there is a lot to wonder about. I am almost positive you know in your heart if family is #1 or if you need more independence/satisfaction at work to be the best you for your family. The people who do well in medicine really know they needed to be a doctor. If you know that, consult the family and do it if they agree. If you dont, just stay the heck away and enjoy a good upper middle class life with your wife/kids/friends. Medicine has too many increasingly annoying aspects to make it a great suggestion for people looking over a fence at green grass.

I thought I was the latter, but going through medical school has made me realize I am the former. This is so true.

 

[Armadillos]

I like medicine and psychiatry and think it's a great career. But IMO it's a much better first career than second.

Is your spouse 100% on board? And I don't mean they "support" you in your choice, I mean are they actively pushing and encouraging you to go to medschool and dump your current career?

 

[KoolKeith]

I like medicine and psychiatry and think it's a great career. But IMO it's a much better first career than second.

Is your spouse 100% on board? And I don't mean they "support" you in your choice, I mean are they actively pushing and encouraging you to go to medschool and dump your current career?

She keeps saying she is but I'm having to do most of the work with arranging the move, housing, childcare etc which leads me to believe that it wouldn't be much different during school. She does help me out a lot with the baby but she wants to work FT if I go back to school in order to help support her family. I'm not crazy about discouraging her from her duty to her family. IMO those are important red flag issues that concern me and have me leaning toward not doing it in spite of my interest. Seems that my desires would selfishly disrupt the fine balance we have right now.

 

[Merovinge]

She keeps saying she is but I'm having to do most of the work with arranging the move, housing, childcare etc which leads me to believe that it wouldn't be much different during school. She does help me out a lot with the baby but she wants to work FT if I go back to school in order to help support her family. I'm not crazy about discouraging her from her duty to her family. IMO those are important red flag issues that concern me and have me leaning toward not doing it in spite of my interest. Seems that my desires would selfishly disrupt the fine balance we have right now.

Sounds like a recipe for disaster that your wisdom may help you stay clear of. Keep seeking more advice but that's a big revelation.

 

[J ROD]

I know I have told you before the choice is yours. For me it is a close call. That does grow the more I get to the end. I knew I would not be happy being the second fiddle. I want to be the "MD". Now, I am the MD and through the hardest part of my intern yr. All my inpatient medicine months are done! So, I have mostly Psychiatry left. There are a few hard months left in that, ED and Night float, but overall I am finally on the downward slope; although it is at the top of that downward slope! lol.

I have had rough times with my wife. She does not like where I matched. It was not nearly my top choice but it happened so here I am. I did most of the move, house hunting, buying the house, etc. so I can feel that.

So far, I have survived it. I hated a lot of it. But, professionally, I reached my highest degree goal and in a few yrs will be an attending in my chosen field. I have thought of seriously stopping several times. Once I was really close when the job I always wanted in pharm was open and it was mine to have if I wanted.

Moral of the story.....is how important is the MD and your professional career to you.

I chose it over having a family and the time/money loss. I would still do it again. But do know it can cost you your wife. It depends on who chose who. She chose me. So I had the bigger hand to play in terms of dictating terms. If you chased her then she has the hand. And may not like having terms dictated to her.

Also, I have seen others with kids make it through but all of them had very supportive and strong wives. I cannot comment on the kid part. I have held that as my last stronghold to adulthood because I knew that would break me in my pursuit.

You got to know yourself and what costs you can live with...........but know there will be a cost.

 

[deleted314290]

I just got back from a 2 week vacation, what did I miss?

 

[KoolKeith]

I know I have told you before the choice is yours. For me it is a close call. That does grow the more I get to the end. I knew I would not be happy being the second fiddle. I want to be the "MD". Now, I am the MD and through the hardest part of my intern yr. All my inpatient medicine months are done! So, I have mostly Psychiatry left. There are a few hard months left in that, ED and Night float, but overall I am finally on the downward slope; although it is at the top of that downward slope! lol.

I have had rough times with my wife. She does not like where I matched. It was not nearly my top choice but it happened so here I am. I did most of the move, house hunting, buying the house, etc. so I can feel that.

So far, I have survived it. I hated a lot of it. But, professionally, I reached my highest degree goal and in a few yrs will be an attending in my chosen field. I have thought of seriously stopping several times. Once I was really close when the job I always wanted in pharm was open and it was mine to have if I wanted.

Moral of the story.....is how important is the MD and your professional career to you.

I chose it over having a family and the time/money loss. I would still do it again. But do know it can cost you your wife. It depends on who chose who. She chose me. So I had the bigger hand to play in terms of dictating terms. If you chased her then she has the hand. And may not like having terms dictated to her.

Also, I have seen others with kids make it through but all of them had very supportive and strong wives. I cannot comment on the kid part. I have held that as my last stronghold to adulthood because I knew that would break me in my pursuit.

You got to know yourself and what costs you can live with...........but know there will be a cost.

Great advice as usual. I've got some hand in the relationship. My previous post may have made her sound less supportive than she really is. She's basically said do whatever I want and she's down for the ride, I just don't think she really understands what's involved. I think I'm more hesitant because I have a better idea of what the path entails.


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[justfolks]

I'm not a doctor, just a patient, so I can't speak from personal experience in this field, but I am finding this discussion a little surprising. Only you can know if you really want to be a doctor, but if you do, that's important. It seems naive to think that anything that you really want can be done without sacrifice. The bottom line is that basically anything worth doing -- in any field -- requires some sort of sacrifice.

 

[Mad Jack]

Thanks for the suggestions. I think you're right, PA would be a much more practical choice. I do worry that I wouldn't know as much as an MD resulting in lower quality care for patients. I don't necessarily like doing things halfway and that's the impression I get of midlevel provider education. It definitely would be better for my family life though.

I do like the pharmacology/physio/micro aspects of my job, i just don't get to use it as much as I'd like. I also don't like not being able to make decisions and the move to turn us into assembly line workers, even in the hospital. The money is really good right now for me working locum/per diem in CA so as long as it holds up I could potentially retire early to get out of the field but it would be hard to pass up med school and wonder "what if". It guess it comes down to not liking my current job, but sticking with it for the money and time with my family or give that up for potentially greater job satisfaction and financial reward but less stability in the short term.

Could consider psych NP, as PAs have a tougher time finding jobs in psych due to the oversight requirement and lack of field-specific training. There's plenty of three year direct entry programs out there. And pay is good-

https://www.indeed.com/m/viewjob?jk=4672e1cfb551f8a0&advn=4496227802764785&from=web

That's an example of a position at $90+/hr. Plenty of them out there.

Direct entry NP programs such as those at Columbia and Yale can train you in about the amount of time medical school would take sands residency, if not shorter. But being a physician psychiatrist opens up many more doors- just be ready to deal with the bumpy road that is medical training (which, as a working adult, I actually found to be not nearly as bad as people claimed). Ask yourself what you want and be honest about it- do you want maximum pay? Prestige (lol, prestige in psych)? To enjoy life more now or later? To spend time with your family? Make a list of what you want, and then write down the different paths possible and scribble down which of these things each path can give you underneath them. It sounds silly, but our brains have trouble juggling dozens of attributes at one, so seeing them visually next to each other might make your decision easier.

 

[J ROD]

Great advice as usual. I've got some hand in the relationship. My previous post may have made her sound less supportive than she really is. She's basically said do whatever I want and she's down for the ride, I just don't think she really understands what's involved. I think I'm more hesitant because I have a better idea of what the path entails.


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Oh yeah, I know all about that "I am down for whatever....", then you will know the resentment and every now and again I get a flat out "well, you brought me here or I wish I could go back home".

I promise you....you have no clue. I thought I would as well before I started. It is a different beast. I adjusted better than most in my class due to my age and having done other professional stuff but it is still a hard adjustment. So much info and time commitment. I would have really been in for it if I had to go to class the first 2 yrs. It allowed me to do work during the day and have most nights free.

 

[masterofmonkeys]

Honestly LCSW's have more training/autonomy when it comes to doing therapy, although if you are already a pharmacist it would be weird to leave meds out of it.

Personally, since you are already trained to the terminal path of your field, I would just find a way to do psychiatry pharmacy work. We had an exclusively psych pharmacist at the VA I trained at and she was great! Her knowledge of psychotropics was at or better than most of my attendings and was able to help out the inpatient and CL team along with putting monitoring programs and such in place (although many psychiatrists hate this, I like a pharmacist looking over things). You could also potentially get involved in industry, it's a dirty bedfellow but also responsible for a lot of good. I'm sure you already thought about this but just some random musings.

Our psych pharmacist also ran therapy groups and eventally became an analyst.

 

[Dharma]

I like medicine and psychiatry and think it's a great career. But IMO it's a much better first career than second.

What did you do before medical school?

 

[Dharma]

Hi all, I am a nontrad student admitted to start an MD program in the fall. I have a strong interest in pursuing psychiatry after working in a psych hospital for several years. However, I am now having some second thoughts about going back to school after reading the forums here and articles elsewhere that describe medical school and training as brutal and soul crushing. I have a wife and baby that I adore and would never forgive myself for going down this path if my family were destroyed in the process.

The main reason I want to go back to school is an interest in the material, and increased autonomy and job satisfaction. I am not motivated by finance, I already make almost as much as some physicians though my work is mind numbing. My hours now are all over the place. In the last couple years I've worked from 40-90 hours/week including alternating nights and days. We survived although I will admit there were difficult times. I know that the decision is mine but would appreciate some reassurance that perhaps there are some fields of medicine such as psychiatry that will not tear my family apart due to work related strain.

I was in your shoes a few years back. Wife, baby boy, about to be one of the older students amongst a sea of millennials, and a bit of fear if I was making the right choice. Deep down, I knew the answer and went for it. Sure I've had moments when I wanted to bail because medicine can really suck sometimes, but that's just about any job out there. And having a family made me all the more stronger. We did it together. I treated school as if it were a job. At the end of the day, my work was done and I closed the metaphorical medical-school drawer for the day and enjoyed my family life instead of thinking or talking about classes, grades, board scores, applications, specialties, etc. I almost felt as if I were at an advantage as compared to others. Seeing my wife and son was a constant reminder of how lucky I was and how school was really not so bad. And now, it's the same during my intern year.

You just need to ask yourself why you want this and IF you want this enough. I think you do...

Simply put- because I'm a fan of not overcomplicating things being that this is a simple matter- trust your gut on this one. You should know the gut feeling vs the wishful thinking feeling by now and not get the two twisted. Go with gut. You already have the answer so be decisive and do what you have to do. No regrets buddy.

 

[postbacpremed87]

I was in your shoes a few years back. Wife, baby boy, about to be one of the older students amongst a sea of millennials, and a bit of fear if I was making the right choice. Deep down, I knew the answer and went for it. Sure I've had moments when I wanted to bail because medicine can really suck sometimes, but that's just about any job out there. And having a family made me all the more stronger. We did it together. I treated school as if it were a job. At the end of the day, my work was done and I closed the metaphorical medical-school drawer for the day and enjoyed my family life instead of thinking or talking about classes, grades, board scores, applications, specialties, etc. I almost felt as if I were at an advantage as compared to others. Seeing my wife and son was a constant reminder of how lucky I was and how school was really not so bad. And now, it's the same during my intern year.

You just need to ask yourself why you want this and IF you want this enough. I think you do...

Simply put- because I'm a fan of not overcomplicating things being that this is a simple matter- trust your gut on this one. You should know the gut feeling vs the wishful thinking feeling by now and not get the two twisted. Go with gut. You already have the answer so be decisive and do what you have to do. No regrets buddy.

I also think Psychiatry is the best field for non-traditional students.

 

[Amygdarya]

I also think Psychiatry is the best field for non-traditional students.

+1

I can't help but smile every time I see the title of this thread. The thing is, psychiatry is one of the gentlest and most compatible with life specialties. It's also one of the most welcoming medical fields for non-traditional, older students (if anything, I've been told life experience is helpful in psychiatric training).

A better question is how brutal the training to become a psychiatrist is, and it has already been addressed before. I know older students with families who have successfully gone through medical training, but I also know some who dropped out of medical school because it was far from the life they wanted, and I've seen several serious long-term relationships fall apart while one or both people in a couple were in medical school or residency. So YMMY, and I can only second (third, fourth) that it's really up to how motivated you are about doing medicine and how supportive your spouse is.

 

[postbacpremed87]

+1

I can't help but smile every time I see the title of this thread. The thing is, psychiatry is one of the gentlest and most compatible with life specialties. It's also one of the most welcoming medical fields for non-traditional, older students (if anything, I've been told life experience is helpful in psychiatric training).

A better question is how brutal the training to become a psychiatrist is, and it has already been addressed before. I know older students with families who have successfully gone through medical training, but I also know some who dropped out of medical school because it was far from the life they wanted, and I've seen several serious long-term relationships fall apart while one or both people in a couple were in medical school or residency. So YMMY, and I can only second (third, fourth) that it's really up to how motivated you are about doing medicine and how supportive your spouse is.

Attendings value your input and your life experiences. Age is something that is valued in Psych. Most Psych PDs and faculty want you to be happy and to enjoy your training. They know that life happens and your residency family will be there for you. Psych is a different animal.

 

[NontradCA]

Attendings value your input and your life experiences. Age is something that is valued in Psych. Most Psych PDs and faculty want you to be happy and to enjoy your training. They know that life happens and your residency family will be there for you. Psych is a different animal.

Aren't you a third year medical student? I'm curious to know how many psych PDs you know, and how well you can attest to what life in residency is like.

I'm not dogging you out for being one, as I am myself. It's just when I first read your post I thought "oh that's good to know", but then realized you're in the same boat as me. You have no idea. Are you going by what is told to you? Lots of family that are PDs at various places?

Lots of misinformation floating around in the world nowadays, and there's plenty of legitimiate sources here on this forum that we can do without speculation. Have a good one.

 

[postbacpremed87]

Aren't you a third year medical student? I'm curious to know how many psych PDs you know, and how well you can attest to what life in residency is like.

I'm not dogging you out for being one, as I am myself. It's just when I first read your post I thought "oh that's good to know", but then realized you're in the same boat as me. You have no idea. Are you going by what is told to you? Lots of family that are PDs at various places?

Lots of misinformation floating around in the world nowadays, and there's plenty of legitimiate sources here on this forum that we can do without speculation. Have a good one.

My N is low but not insignificant. I know an abnormal amount of MD/DOs through family/friends. Also I have gone through my core medical school rotations and it is apparent when you compare the personalities of the different specialties. Most PDs in most specialties want their padawans to succeed. I'm glad you're trying to sniff out misinformation. Good for you. You shouldn't believe a word I say. After all this is the internet. In addition, I said most so maybe your PD won't be supportive. I hope not, but just maybe...

 

[J ROD]

Attendings value your input and your life experiences. Age is something that is valued in Psych. Most Psych PDs and faculty want you to be happy and to enjoy your training. They know that life happens and your residency family will be there for you. Psych is a different animal.

Yeah, I don't get the value your wisdom and they definitely do not value my opinion. They just want me to do as told and work my ass off....lol

 

[Crayola227]

Yeah, I don't get the value your wisdom and they definitely do not value my opinion. They just want me to do as told and work my ass off....lol

Yes but c'mon, there's gotta be points for the thought that counts, right?

All residencies, including psych, are happy to literally work you to death, and they won't stop even if you might actually die on the job, but how many do such a good job of maintaining a reputation for not being like that?

Who could write your parents a better "Bereavement" letter?

Say what you will, psych is a different animal.

 

[postbacpremed87]

Yeah, I don't get the value your wisdom and they definitely do not value my opinion. They just want me to do as told and work my ass off....lol

You're right guys. This is the absolute worst specialty in terms of malignancy. Psychiatrists are not known for being understanding, empathetic folks. They won't listen to what I say at all. I finish 3rd year in a few months. I should learn my place or splik will keep liking the attacks on my crazy reasoning. What was I thinking?

 

[NontradCA]

You're right guys. This is the absolute worst specialty in terms of malignancy. Psychiatrists are not known for being understanding, empathetic folks. They won't listen to what I say at all. I finish 3rd year in a few months. I should learn my place or splik will keep liking the attacks on my crazy reasoning. What was I thinking?

I think most people are just saying that medicine is a tougher to navigate the older you get, and no matter the specialty, residency is not easy. I think most physicians on here are hyper aware of the "lazy psychiatrist" stigma, and would not want to perpetuate this in prospective applicants. If you look around SDN (especially med student forums, other specialty forums) all you'll see is how psych is such a lifestyle specialty.

 

[postbacpremed87]

I think most people are just saying that medicine is a tougher to navigate the older you get, and no matter the specialty, residency is not easy. I think most physicians on here are hyper aware of the "lazy psychiatrist" stigma, and would not want to perpetuate this in prospective applicants. If you look around SDN (especially med student forums, other specialty forums) all you'll see is how psych is such a lifestyle specialty.

True, but lifestyle and hard work aren't mutually exclusive. I like to think people who choose Psychiatry can take a step back and take life in. After all it is a field that values mental health. I don't have a study to back this up so I am ready for your response telling me I am wrong and for splik to like your comment.

 

[clausewitz2]

True, but lifestyle and hard work aren't mutually exclusive. I like to think people who choose Psychiatry can take a step back and take life in. After all it is a field that values mental health. I don't have a study to back this up so I am ready for your response telling me I am wrong and for splik to like your comment.

It's a field that focuses on mental pathology.

I'm not sure most psychiatrists know all that much about mental health.

 

[postbacpremed87]

It's a field that focuses on mental pathology.

I'm not sure most psychiatrists know all that much about mental health.

I knew it. I knew I couldn't have a good thought. Okay splik. You can like their reply.

 

[clausewitz2]

I knew it. I knew I couldn't have a good thought. Okay splik. You can like their reply.

I think you're absolutely right in thinking that psychiatry definitely attracts a lower proportion of miserable workaholics who have no meaningful interests beyond their jobs. It would also be hard to find a psych residency that is as godawful as a real IM or GS sweatshop.

At the end of the day though, any residency program's major interest in you is that you be able to do. the. work. On time. Reliable. Some are good at taking steps to help you remove obstacles to doing that, but you will no longer be a student. You will be an apprentice, with all that entails.

 

[postbacpremed87]

I think you're absolutely right in thinking that psychiatry definitely attracts a lower proportion of miserable workaholics who have no meaningful interests beyond their jobs. It would also be hard to find a psych residency that is as godawful as a real IM or GS sweatshop.

At the end of the day though, any residency program's major interest in you is that you be able to do. the. work. On time. Reliable. Some are good at taking steps to help you remove obstacles to doing that, but you will no longer be a student. You will be an apprentice, with all that entails.

My Psych clerkship eval comments basically said that I work independently and get my work done in a succinct manner. I thought I was ruined by those comments. I am beginning to think those were the best comments I could have gotten. Put me to work! Apprenctice (ha Star Wars)....kneels...what thy bidding my master? I'll just take that approach in residency I guess.

 

[clausewitz2]

what is thy bidding my master? .

This is the correct attitude with which to approach intern year.