How can I overcome "academic" inbreeding?

[cchays]

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Hello All,

I have gone over all the posts regarding this subject and I cant seem to find a reply that directly applies to my situation:

I am a psychology major at UCSD and I want to pursue a career in neuropsychology. More specifically I am interested in research regarding traumatic brain injury and adolescent stroke. There are so many faculty at the UCSD-SDSU joint doctoral program in clinical psychology that are doing fascinating research in this area. In fact, out of all the programs in the nation that are APA accredited for the neuropsychology track, this program fits best with my interests. The problem clearly lies in the fact that I am receiving my undergrad at UCSD. My question is, how likely is it that I would be able to overcome the "academic inbreeding" stigma? Can "fit" and match outweigh "inbreeding?"

GPA: 3.7 (I am going to begin my major coursework this fall so Im hoping to raise this to a 3.9 now that I can take psychology courses!!)

GRE: not taken (Still have 2 years to go) But I am generally a very strong test taker.

Research Experience:

*2 independent research projects finished. 2 poster presentations (1 @ APA, 1 @ CDS, and 1 @ college level, all with 1st authorship). I plan to submit my most recent paper for publication. It might be important to note that neither of my independent research directly relates to my research interests (although they are broadly related).

*I plan to complete another independent study for the senior honors thesis. This will hopefully result in more presentations. I also hope to have this study reflect my interest more closely.

*2 years experience as a RA in a developmental neuroscience lab

*Just started a new RA position in a neuropsychology lab. I plan to work there for the next 2 years (until I graduate).

*Plan to work under a POI starting next fall who's research DIRECTLY reflects my interests in TBI. (I highly doubt that I will have any opportunity to do any independent research with him, as most of his research is done with multiple MD's and PhD's. I am just hoping to have a chance to work with the population I am interested in.)

Clinical Experience: 6 months working at a sober living house


I am just trying to find out whether I can overcome the fact that I am trying to attend a program that is affiliated with the school I will receive my undergrad at. In addition, both POI's that I have worked for as a RA are affiliated with the joint doctoral program as well. Is this going to hurt my chances even more? Or will this help? Would I be hurting my chances even more if I tried to work under one of the POI's that I would like to work under for the doctoral program? If anyone has any experience with this, your input would be greatly appreciated. Additionally, if anyone attends or has attended the UCSD-SDSU JDP, what has been your observation regarding "inbreeding?" It just seems pretty extreme to me that the program would not accept anyone from UCSD Or SDSU. That is such a large population to disregard!

Sorry this is so long!!

THANKS FOR YOUR RESPONSES!!

 

[ClinicalPHD5]

In general, i would say that it can only help you. If the faculty at UCSD like you and write letters of recommendation for you, then i would imagine that it would be looked upon highly within the same program. If you impress them so much, they would probably even put in a good word for you or pull for you. This happens all the time! I would def. let them know that you are applying to the program and its your first choice and see what they can advise you.

I have heard that some programs don't want to take undergrads from the same program, but i have never heard of this in practice. I have seen many people get into same undergrad and PhD program. Using your connections to get into this program can only help!

 

[cchays]

Wow. That makes me feel so much better. I have heard so many people say that during the application process, they will put anyone who went to the same university straight to the bottom of the pile. I always felt that this could not apply to every applicant. Thanks so much for your response.

 

[roubs]

The best way to answer your question would be to talk to the faculty you want to work with in the doctoral program. There is enough uncertainty in this area that no SDNer will be able to give you a definitive answer. My undergrad school actively dissuaded its students from applying to the grad program but that really has very little to do with your situation.

If you're told that they absolutely do not put UCSD undergrads at the bottom of the pile you are still going to apply to a wide variety of programs, right?

 

[cchays]

Well I am definitely going to apply to multiple programs, as I know it would be foolish not to. I am just somewhat limited because my fiance cannot relocate due to his job, so I really need to stay on the west coast (preferably california). The other issue is that there are not very many clinical programs with a neuropsychology track. Additionally I have yet to find another program that has so many faculty doing research on pediatric and adolescent TBI. If I apply to other programs then it would most likely be ones that do NOT have the neuropsych track. So my research interests would not be so easily matched...

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Don't worry about "tracks", as what you really need is a good mentor, access to good training opportunities, and access to the right equipment (MRI, fMRI, etc).

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Don't worry about "tracks", as what you really need is a good mentor, access to good training opportunities, and access to the right equipment (MRI, fMRI, etc).

I think this is a very important point with respect to neuropsychology (and forensics) in particular. Not to completely derail the thread, but as has been said here in the past, a good clinical neuropsychologist is first trained as being a good clinical psychologist. The reason there are relatively few APA-accredited tracks of any type is that the APA feels, as do most faculty with whom I've spoken, that while specialization can begin at the grad school level, this should not occur at the expense of obtaining a solid generalist foundation, and should not be the focus/crux of the doctoral training experience. That's what internships and, to a greater extent, post-docs are for.

I'd recommend looking into specific mentors rather than only at programs that have specific neuropsych tracks. My program, for example, has no specialty tracks. However, we do very well in terms of internship, post-doc, and career placements (with respect to neuropsychology, health psychology, and childhood trauma in particular).

To get back to the point at hand--in general, I have gotten the same sense from admissions committees that you've expressed. Many programs do not like to take, or will even reject outright, applicants who attended undergrad there. However, I know that my current program will occasionally take on applicants from here; this usually happens when an undergrad makes a particularly strong impression on a faculty member, who will then inform the department that he/she would like to accept this student into grad school. Thus, in my (very limited) experience, I would say that applying to work with POIs who're familiar with your work ethic as an undergrad is the best way to overcome the whole "inbreeding" bias.

 

[cchays]

Ok well that changes my whole outlook on everything. THANKS 🙂 I will focus on faculty and their research and not worry so much about the "track" or "focus". Would you suggest that I try to broaden my research interests? I was very intent on working with faculty who research pediatric or adolescent TBI... but is this narrow focus going to hinder me when I am applying to programs? Obviously I am interested in many topics in neuropsychology and would be happy doing research in many areas.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Ok well that changes my whole outlook on everything. THANKS 🙂 I will focus on faculty and their research and not worry so much about the "track" or "focus". Would you suggest that I try to broaden my research interests? I was very intent on working with faculty who research pediatric or adolescent TBI... but is this narrow focus going to hinder me when I am applying to programs? Obviously I am interested in many topics in neuropsychology and would be happy doing research in many areas.

Those research interests are definitely broad enough not to limit/hurt you at this point, and would likely help you look more focused, which is good.

Also, you don't have to completely abandon your desire for a rich neuropsychology experience at the doctoral level (I'd say I've probably spent at least a solid 50% of my time here in neuropsych-related activities). Many of the more neuropsych-intensive internships do tend to look for individuals who have at least some related experience, although it's not a universal requirement, and each year students with limited neuropsych exposure at the doctoral level land solid neuro-focused internships. Just don't let these ultimate career goals limit the non-neuropsych opportunities and training that you undertake.

 

[cara susanna]

I agree that you don't need a neuropsych track. My program offers excellent opportunities in neuropsych training and research, but it doesn't officially have a track.

 

[cchays]

Thanks for the great responses about the neuropsych track guys. It is greatly appreciated! I would still love to hear others opinions on the "academic inbreeding" topic. Especially information regarding how prevalent it seems to be at top PhD programs. I am still interested in tips about how to overcome this issue! It would also be great to hear from someone who has attended the UCSD-SDSU joint doc program and can speak about how many people in that program got their undergrad at one of the two schools. THANKS 🙂

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Some academic inbreeding happens because there are only so many people who work in a particular area (program level) and a finite number of sites (fellowship level. For instance, the University of Oklahoma HSC neuropsychology fellowship program has 3-4 fellows at a time, and those people tend to go to top jobs afterwards. The same can be said for folks from the University of Michigan, Mayo, Hokpins, etc. There will be some outliers, but you'll find many of the same fellowship names pop up in many of the top academic medical centers.

 

[Ellie Richards]

Good luck with that. It's unfortunate that you attended there as an undergrad because you would have had a better chance applying from another school. UC psych/neuroscience programs don't typically take their own unless there's some funny business going on. Think about it: why would you want to spend 9-10 years in the same program anyway? I know it's easier and more comfortable to stay at the same school, but you'll just look like you didn't want to leave the nest. It will also look like you got favored treatment or you couldn't get in elsewhere. Right or wrong, there will be suspicion and resentment, especially from your fellow students who were discouraged from applying to their undergrad program when that was their preference.

Look at the bright side: you're graduating from a top school with a ton of research experience and a good academic record. So you shouldn't have a problem getting into an equally good grad program elsewhere.

BTW, saying you don't want to relocate from California is a HUMUNGO red flag. And even worse, saying it's because of your fiancee's job will get a few snickers. To be taken seriously as a scholar you need to be willing to relocate anywhere in the country.

 

[wigflip]

Good luck with that. It's unfortunate that you attended there as an undergrad because you would have had a better chance applying from another school. UC psych/neuroscience programs don't typically take their own unless there's some funny business going on. Think about it: why would you want to spend 9-10 years in the same program anyway? I know it's easier and more comfortable to stay at the same school, but you'll just look like you didn't want to leave the nest. It will also look like you got favored treatment or you couldn't get in elsewhere. Right or wrong, there will be suspicion and resentment, especially from your fellow students who were discouraged from applying to their undergrad program when that was their preference.

Look at the bright side: you're graduating from a top school with a ton of research experience and a good academic record. So you shouldn't have a problem getting into an equally good grad program elsewhere.

BTW, saying you don't want to relocate from California is a HUMUNGO red flag. And even worse, saying it's because of your fiancee's job will get a few snickers. To be taken seriously as a scholar you need to be willing to relocate anywhere in the country.

The OP posted in late May of 2011, and the discussion wrapped up several days later on June 1, so this finger wagging is a little late.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

wigflip...great avatar!

 

[erg923]

is a HUMUNGO red flag. And even worse, saying it's because of your fiancee's job will get a few snickers. To be taken seriously as a scholar you need to be willing to relocate anywhere in the country.

And this is a HUMUNGO redflag that you are probably under the age of 25 and not married or not otherwise attached. I wouldn't recommend anyone, EVER, sacrifice work/grad school over family! Nobody wants to be the crazy spinster cat lady with 50 academic publications...THAT, would make me snicker.

I mean, come on people, now we are "red flagging" folks that value family and dont want to play rolling stone in the name of academic research?! Get real...🙄

 

[wigflip]

wigflip...great avatar!

Thanks T4C, was thinking the same about your new one! Actually, I've been dying to ask...is that Kristin Bell (aka Veronica Mars)?!?

 

[wigflip]

And this is a HUMUNGO redflag that you are probably under the age of 25 and not married or not otherwise attached. I wouldn't recommend anyone, EVER, sacrifice work/grad school over family! Nobody wants to be the crazy spinster cat lady with 50 academic publications...THAT, would make me snicker.

I mean, come on people, now we are "red flagging" folks that value family and dont want to play rolling stone in the name of academic research?! Get real...🙄

+1. I know I've especially enjoyed the way the Academic Koolaid Drinkers (both online and IRL) have treated my 10+ year marriage and eldercare responsibilities as though they were indicators of personal weakness or a lack of dedication. "Why don't you just move across the country to study with so-and-so for a few years?" "Why can't you drop everything else to get this paper out a week earlier than we agreed upon?" Gimme a break.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Thanks T4C, was thinking the same about your new one! Actually, I've been dying to ask...is that Kristin Bell (aka Veronica Mars)?!?

Indeed! I'm a fan from her Veronica Mars years. I'm guessing the picture was from a convention of some sort, since you don't often see people dressed up as Chewbacca just walking around. 😀 As an aside, there is a hysterical video that has been circulating of her on ELLEN talking about her love of sloths...it is ridiculously funny/cute.

+1. I know I've especially enjoyed the way the Academic Koolaid Drinkers (both online and IRL) have treated my 10+ year marriage and eldercare responsibilities as though they were indicators of personal weakness or a lack of dedication. "Why don't you just move across the country to study with so-and-so for a few years?" "Why can't you drop everything else to get this paper out a week earlier than we agreed upon?" Gimme a break.

There definitely needs to be a balance, but expectations will be high at pretty much all programs. I think the mentor/mentee relationship can feel very unfair to the mentee, particularly in regard to deadlines and the seemingly arbitrary nature of some of the day to day happenings while in grad school. It is sad how accurate Piled Higher & Deeper is when it talks about shaping your life around your graduate work.

 

[cara susanna]

OT, but you should check our Kristin Bell in the Reefer Madness movie musical. She's awesome in it.

 

[KillerDiller]

Indeed! I'm a fan from her Veronica Mars years.

I loved Veronica Mars! I'm still sad that it was canceled so suddenly after only 3 seasons.

Chewbacca is nice too.