How common are dismissals in Residency?

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genessis42

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I've seen med students get dismissed for things like unprofessional actions, or academic such as failing boards after 3 attempts, not getting through a a repeat year, etc... Although most schools will try to remediate you first at least.

Is it common for things like this to happen in residency?

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It’s pretty uncommon. Everyone that I’ve seen that didn’t make it through had pretty apparent reasons. It’s much easier to washout of med school, because the first two years are test heavy. There aren’t many tests in residency, so those that washout usually have something personality-wise, made a horrible ethic decision, or are at risk of harming patients with independence. As long as you play nicely, aren’t a psychopath, and have a minimal level of competence (or at can show the ability to work hard and improve)…you usually make it
 
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Not super common but it happens.

Gross professionalism issues are usually the culprit. Then unteachable/inability to take feedback issues. Then finally incompetence.

As j4pac said, if you play well in the sandbox then people tolerate a fair amount of incompetence.
 
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In my little corner of the world it happens about once for every 50 residents.
Most common is they show up on day one and fail the drug test. (In my place --- your gone! no questions, no recourse, no do over.)
 
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The programs really, really, really don’t want to fire residents. It looks bad, can be an issue for funding, and makes the rest of that resident’s class work a lot harder to make up for the one fewer body. If it’s something that is remotely fixable, and it isn’t a crime or otherwise unacceptably unprofessional (e.g. slept with a patient, intoxicated at work) they will usually try to make it work.
 
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Not to hijack this thread but how important is it to play nice with / suck up to the PC for the duration of the residency? They hold the power position more so than even the PD I heard?
 
Not to hijack this thread but how important is it to play nice with / suck up to the PC for the duration of the residency? They hold the power position more so than even the PD I heard?
Being pleasant and doing the job expected of you, and "sucking up" are two different things. One is sincere and the other is phony.
I hope you can tell the difference. The senior residents you are working with and the attending physicians on the ward will be the people you have more contact with day to day. If you focus on learning a little every day about the medical issues your patients have, and focus on the best care and treatment for the patients, you will be doing your job.
 
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I heard from a geriatrician on my final 4th year rotation that during her residency class, one resident and the PC butted heads the entire time. The PC made the resident’s life miserable since she controlled his scheduling etc. The faculty didn’t have issues with his performance and he generally got along well with everyone else. Hence my question.
 
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I heard from a geriatrician on my final 4th year rotation that during her residency class, one resident and the PC butted heads the entire time. The PC made the resident’s life miserable since she controlled his scheduling etc. The faculty didn’t have issues with his performance and he generally got along well with everyone else. Hence my question.
Don't be a d*** to the PC and everything will be fine.
 
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In general surgery, there is definitely attrition. Though straight-up being fired is uncommon. The only example I can think of has to do with controlled substances and criminal activity.

Otherwise, most examples are people being "counseled out" and transferring to a different specialty.
 
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Not to hijack this thread but how important is it to play nice with / suck up to the PC for the duration of the residency? They hold the power position more so than even the PD I heard?

I wouldn't go overboard but there are definitely benefits to having a good working relationship with admin and ancillary staff.

For PC's and residency educational dept staff, they do all the dirty work of making the residency run. They can super easily lose/deprioritize a person's paperwork in a residency of 30-100 residents if you piss them off. Or just straight give you a crappy schedule. Flip side, I had a good relationship with my PC and when i needed verifications done in a time crunch later on for training and jobs she took care of it immediately.

Same thing goes for floor nurses. They can be very helpful and guide newbie trainees or they can make your job unnecessarily difficult and talk **** about you to your attendings.

Bottom line, it's the same for your career as life. Golden rule: treat people how you'd want to be treated.
 
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The PC didn't have anything to do with scheduling in my residency, the chief residents did it all. PC still is the one on charge of all the paperwork. Being a normal polite human and saying good morning and asking how her day was going and such and our PC would bend over backwards to make things easier for us. I highly recommend it even if they have nothing to do with scheduling. For the rest of your career you will need residency verification for things, my former PC will just fill out the form and get it sent out the same day as opposed to the 6 weeks the hospital GME office takes to process any forms from graduates.
 
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Good to know. I am on good footing with my PC and don't anticipate ever treating them as well as other support staff (all others) with anything but respect and consideration during my time.
 
Not super common, but it happens often enough that you hear about it, mostly in programs with a malignant or workhouse reputation. I have heard through the EM grapevine that one of the old osteopathic EM programs in Michigan (Henry Ford Allegiance in Michigan, I believe) recently kicked out a senior resident, though I'm not sure why.
 
Pretty uncommon. Hospitals are funded to have residents as underpaid labor, so the incentive is there to keep you. They are more likely to put you on prolonged leave.
 
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In general surgery, there is definitely attrition. Though straight-up being fired is uncommon. The only example I can think of has to do with controlled substances and criminal activity.

Otherwise, most examples are people being "counseled out" and transferring to a different specialty.

I had my PD call me Sept of intern year, “asking” me to do an extra ICU rotation in Dec (the month I was set to take Step 3 and had outpt GI).

Turns out one of the other interns was stealing the Rx pads from attending & going to town with opioids and got themselves fired

I ended up having to take Step 3 Dec of my 2nd year…, sucked big time 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️
 
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Pretty uncommon. Hospitals are funded to have residents as underpaid labor, so the incentive is there to keep you. They are more likely to put you on prolonged leave.
There are potential incentives to keep residents, generally. But the funding exists regardless of any specific resident.

Underperforming residents can be a drain in the system. The point would be that it takes a lot for the costs (financial and otherwise) of remediating/managing an underperforming resident to exceed the costs of replacing them with some other resident.
 
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I had my PD call me Sept of intern year, “asking” me to do an extra ICU rotation in Dec (the month I was set to take Step 3 and had outpt GI).

Turns out one of the other interns was stealing the Rx pads from attending & going to town with opioids and got themselves fired

I ended up having to take Step 3 Dec of my 2nd year…, sucked big time 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️
I did NICU 4 times in my peds residency for similar reasons. They knew I was a team player and would say yes.
 
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I had my PD call me Sept of intern year, “asking” me to do an extra ICU rotation in Dec (the month I was set to take Step 3 and had outpt GI).

Turns out one of the other interns was stealing the Rx pads from attending & going to town with opioids and got themselves fired

I ended up having to take Step 3 Dec of my 2nd year…, sucked big time 🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️
My residency class had two people leave, one person from the class above us join and then get kicked out because they violated their rehab program rules. So our schedules had multiple changes and increased coverage requirements as senior residents.
 
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I heard of two people getting fired, no one getting pushed out. One person apparently felt they couldn’t keep up and wrote notes on patients they hadn’t seen. The other person was more subtle but it came down to poor judgment/not teachable, and it wasn’t sudden. It’s a lot of work for the program to cover for a missing resident and although they want to graduate good doctors, it’s not in their interest to fire residents if they can help it.
 
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Only an issue with the toxic programs. usually only Toxic programs will have an issue keeping people.
My program has not graduated a class intact as far back as I know.
 
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For a piece of data, here is a presentation from the ACGME primarily focused on race/ethnicity, but they actually have significant dismissal data from the 2004-2005 through 2015-2016 academic years. Look at slide 42.

There were between 198 and 277 residents fired each year of the analysis. Looking up how many residents there are in the US during that time period shows that in 2015-2016 there were 120,598 active trainees (including fellows). That's approximately 0.2% being fired per year, or one in 500. Average training period is ~4 years, which means that approximately ~99% of residents are not fired over the course of a training program.

Now, it did vary a bit from specialty to specialty - slide 44 - and ethnicity - basically every slide looks at that - but firing is still fairly uncommon.
 
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The programs really, really, really don’t want to fire residents. It looks bad, can be an issue for funding, and makes the rest of that resident’s class work a lot harder to make up for the one fewer body. If it’s something that is remotely fixable, and it isn’t a crime or otherwise unacceptably unprofessional (e.g. slept with a patient, intoxicated at work) they will usually try to make it work.
Typically yes, but sometimes there are program directors who are either impossible to please or even worse, have already decided to fire a resident and are only creating a paper trail to do it correctly.
 
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Some percent of psychiatry residents are not promoted after the first year. It is higher than I expected. Surgery also. The percentages have been published, but I can't seem to find the publication right now. The figures were higher than the data from the ACGME presentation posted above. It may be how dismissed was defined in that slide. It is probably best to avoid bad programs.
 
Some percent of psychiatry residents are not promoted after the first year. It is higher than I expected. Surgery also. The percentages have been published, but I can't seem to find the publication right now. The figures were higher than the data from the ACGME presentation posted above. It may be how dismissed was defined in that slide. It is probably best to avoid bad programs.
The big issue is how medical school seniors are supposed to know which programs are bad...
 
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The big issue is how medical school seniors are supposed to know which programs are bad...

That is a real problem, I think. Residency programs do mislead applicants at times. Unfortunately, it is a bit of a uneven playing field. Resident unionization is the only thing I've heard of that sounds useful.
 
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That is a real problem, I think. Residency programs do mislead applicants at times. Unfortunately, it is a bit of a uneven playing field. Resident unionization is the only thing I've heard of that sounds useful.

So as a resident, you're gonna go on strike and potentially lead to having to extend your training because of too much time off?
 
So as a resident, you're gonna go on strike and potentially lead to having to extend your training because of too much time off?

I think the idea is, collective bargaining works better. Has an entire class ever been dismissed from a residency for a union action?
 
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Some percent of psychiatry residents are not promoted after the first year. It is higher than I expected. Surgery also. The percentages have been published, but I can't seem to find the publication right now. The figures were higher than the data from the ACGME presentation posted above. It may be how dismissed was defined in that slide. It is probably best to avoid bad programs.
I know that used to be a thing years ago but I've seen no evidence that it still is.
 
I think the idea is, collective bargaining works better. Has an entire class ever been dismissed from a residency for a union action?

Your specialty boards don't care if your entire class is dismissed from a residency program or not. If you don't meet the qualifications to sit for your boards, you don't sit. So are you going to realistically strike for a job that is only 3-7 years long? Possibly hurt your future career? I know I wouldn't...
 
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Your specialty boards don't care if your entire class is dismissed from a residency program or not. If you don't meet the qualifications to sit for your boards, you don't sit. So are you going to realistically strike for a job that is only 3-7 years long? Possibly hurt your future career? I know I wouldn't...

The benefit of collective bargaining is that in large numbers the effective bargaining power is increased. So it isn't just you against the administration.
 
The benefit of collective bargaining is that in large numbers the effective bargaining power is increased. So it isn't just you against the administration.

And without a real threat of a strike, then what consequence does admin face? All you're doing is paying union dues to feel better about yourself.
 
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And without a real threat of a strike, then what consequence does admin face? All you're doing is paying union dues to feel better about yourself.

I think this is enough arguing for today. You can have the last word if you want. Unions are becoming more popular amongst residents and this is a good thing for their rights.
 
I think this is enough arguing for today. You can have the last word if you want. Unions are becoming more popular amongst residents and this is a good thing for their rights.

As you wish. I see it more as a discussion, than an argument. I personally see resident unions as more of a waste of time.
 
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I think the idea is, collective bargaining works better. Has an entire class ever been dismissed from a residency for a union action?
Haven’t seen that …but why not? There are literally thousands of unmatched applicants that would jump at the chance of a residency.

I bet the air traffic controllers that went on strike in the 1981 didn’t think president Reagan would fire them all either…

 
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The real power I think of a resident union isn't the the threat of strike. More that, it's more difficult for individual resident vs program conflict to get swept under the rug in various ways.

It provides a paper trail of collective resident complaints, potentially even in a way that is more anonymized across the group and hence more difficult to have any retaliatory or intimidating action against any individual.

(And before anyone says, that doesn't happen very often, I will say I've definitely seen it more than once, even at very nice and not malignant programs. Multiple reports across multiple residents, the vast majority of whom were never even in any hot water themselves.

Sometimes programs don't even perceive that what they are doing is singling anyone out and retaliating in the pressure they apply or things they say.

"Oh, you want time off for this assault/insert other trauma/illness you endured? Well, we can do that, but I think then we will have to consider what we report about your professionalism..." Many residents back down in convos like this.

You think I'm lying or making this stuff up, but I'm not. I've heard it from enough horse's mouths, and especially within a small program, that the odds ALL the residents (including the ones on the good side of the program) are lying/exaggerating, is very, very low. Seniors will see the patterns being there long enough as well, in addition to individual report.

Anyway, besides making it harder to pressure any individual, the way that unions and programs negotiations tend to occur, makes there be an official paper trail of complaints and well as responses. This can also allow there to be pressure from the community or PR on a program as well.

Lastly, is that a union can retain legal services to assist them. As is ALWAYS stated on this board, and has never really been seriously refuted and thus has been essentially treated as a stated fact, is that when an individual resident lawyers up this tends to increase the antagonism between resident and program (and I discuss elsewhere why in some considered cases this is still worth doing at times). A union can have legal representation.

So it doesn't have to come down to threat of strike specifically, for how a union and its concerns might be somewhat harder for a program to dismiss, and they have to come to the negotiating table as a result. Certain tricks a program might use to get their way simply will not be possible. How they handle the complaints will be recorded and reviewable by outside parties. There is more transparency and accountability.

How do I know? I know some of the inside dirt under the system without representation. And then I have also tried to follow cases where conflict occurred between a resident union and the program and the outcome. Of course only when it makes the news. Which, it does. Another power of having the union.

(Individual resident/program conflict can make the news, but even in cases where the program looks very bad, there is no happy ending for the resident. And agreed, most cases that make the news tends to look very bad for the resident many times. I have a theory why this is (when residents do have a very good case and the program is very wrong, the programs take steps to settle just so it does stay quiet out of the news). Anyway, by the time individual resident/program conflict makes the news, nothing good usually comes of it. In contrast to when resident union/program conflict comes to light. These things may not go the way unions want, and even individuals may still be damaged, however, it's not necessarily a given with a union involved like it effectively is when it's only one resident).

That said, typically the union is very limited in what concessions they are able to get. This is, because as pointed out, strikes are not a terribly useful tool for the resident union. Also, because residents as a class of trainee/employee, are basically in a legal no-man's land when it comes to protections that typically apply to standard education systems/students, or employees in the workplace. Residencies are literally exempt for much of the law that would otherwise apply to other classes of individual. This limits how much is even on the table for residents to negotiate for.

Now, no doubt standard treatment of individuals on the part of the program is still possible even with resident unions in place. They can only do so much to advocate for individuals.

However, if there is actual abuse and it does apply broad across the board, I fail to see how any group of residents can get any concerns addressed whatsoever, without a union, even one that doesn't threaten to strike.

No one wants to make training last longer. I don't know enough to know if it makes a difference to program standing under the ACGME, if, for example, residents walk out of all educational activities like seminars and morning/noon report. I know these activities and their attendance in some measure are required by ACGME for a program's accreditation. In this sense, residents could perhaps "walk out" without not caring for patients. Missing days inpatient/outpatient is what always must be made up and can only be made up when needed to be made up, by training extension. Obviously this affects the education of the residents, and program standing which threatens their career, however I would think remedy might come without having to extend training time. And it may put pressure on a program to address resident concerns before the issue actually threatens accreditation.

I haven't followed resident union/program conflict enough to know exactly what, if any strategies they have besides strike or increased transparency/PR at their disposal.

In any case, it seems that the resident union is better for bargaining for better treatment than no union. But no, they are not typically going to get anything with a strike. And no, they are not going to be able to bargain for unicorns and rainbows. And some individuals will still get spanked/abused in any case. The only thing I can see, is it's better than nothing. Grievances get recorded and airtime. Hopefully the hospital/HR/PR/legal risk management puts pressure on the program to address concerns where they can.

I know the power legal risk management, the lawyers that work for the hospital, have in getting hospitals, admin, programs to do things they don't even want to do. It's just the way it is. The lawyers always win. And that's even when it's a single resident and the program operating in the shadows. So I would venture that a resident union can apply at least some pressure.
 
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Haven’t seen that …but why not? There are literally thousands of unmatched applicants that would jump at the chance of a residency.

I bet the air traffic controllers that went on strike in the 1981 didn’t think president Reagan would fire them all either…



Are you kidding? The backlash would be severe. That is why it hasn't happened.

Here's something I found online: https://www.healthaffairs.org/do/10.1377/hp20230525.244710/

You must not be in the administration of a residency program. With an attitude like that, it is clear you do not care very much about the wellbeing of trainees. What you are describing is a race to the bottom. Only the trainees who are willing to put up with the worst working conditions should have jobs? How about we optimize for something better, like producing the best doctors possible?

I read online that only 10% of the striking air traffic controllers returned to work after being ordered to. So that does not sound like a very good solution. It says online it took 10 years for staffing levels to return to normal. Might I point out to you, people are not in love with the way the airplane travel industry works in this country.

The government already exerts extraordinary control over medical residency training for example by the maintenance of the NRMP monopoly.
 
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Binding arbitration..
As respectfully as possible given your long career in healthcare, and I mean that sincerely, residency is a different ball of wax than other fields, unionized or not. While I’m not sure how I feel about resident unions, as I can see the pros and the cons, I can say that some programs and some GME offices would find ways to circumvent this, as they do now with the existing rules.

It also seems problematic for a resident union to represent all the different medical and surgical specialties at a given location. Or residents at different locations. I would need to hear a lot more about how this would work on a grander scale across the US (rather than the select group of places that currently have unions) to given an opinion for or against. The disparities in time expectations (both years of training and average daily time in the hospital) between specialties and between locations, as well as varying cultures, would be tough for a union to navigate I think. What seems egregious to one specialty can be considered completely reasonable to another and visa versa.
 
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Are you kidding? The backlash would be severe. That is why it hasn't happened.

Here's something I found online: https://www.healthaffairs.org/do/10.1377/hp20230525.244710/

You must not be in the administration of a residency program. With an attitude like that, it is clear you do not care very much about the wellbeing of trainees. What you are describing is a race to the bottom. Only the trainees who are willing to put up with the worst working conditions should have jobs? How about we optimize for something better, like producing the best doctors possible?

I read online that only 10% of the striking air traffic controllers returned to work after being ordered to. So that does not sound like a very good solution. It says online it took 10 years for staffing levels to return to normal. Might I point out to you, people are not in love with the way the airplane travel industry works in this country.

The government already exerts extraordinary control over medical residency training for example by the maintenance of the NRMP monopoly.

I can’t imagine the air traffic controllers had to deal with the debt level of modern day medical school or the absolute need for their job to progress in their career.

Not to mention, about half of the US are right to work states where you can have a union but you can’t be compelled to join a union as a condition of employment. And yes, I absolutely think some programs in a lot of those states would ultimately turn to hiring new residents if bargaining or a strike reached an impasse.
 
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They can always hurt you more.
Well that’s the rub about binding arbitration. If you win, you win, but if they win..
As respectfully as possible given your long career in healthcare, and I mean that sincerely, residency is a different ball of wax than other fields, unionized or not. While I’m not sure how I feel about resident unions, as I can see the pros and the cons, I can say that some programs and some GME offices would find ways to circumvent this, as they do now with the existing rules.

It also seems problematic for a resident union to represent all the different medical and surgical specialties at a given location. Or residents at different locations. I would need to hear a lot more about how this would work on a grander scale across the US (rather than the select group of places that currently have unions) to given an opinion for or against. The disparities in time expectations (both years of training and average daily time in the hospital) between specialties and between locations, as well as varying cultures, would be tough for a union to navigate I think. What seems egregious to one specialty can be considered completely reasonable to another and visa versa.
I’m not necessarily advocating for binding arbitration in residency, i think your work environment and hospital/supervisor/employee(resident) relationship is significantly more complicated than working for the city. I was just answering the question “if we can’t strike, then why?” As you know, we can’t strike either, but still enjoy some benefit from having a union.
 
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The entire NRMP monopoly match process ruins the negotiation process during hiring also, which is very unlike other industries.
 
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It may not be your favorite, but, the alternative is a mess on the level of a multicar MVC.
I think the alternative is actually worse than a multicar MVC. More like a multicar MVC that occurred because of the preceding train wreck into the dumpster fire.

The old system didn't work well for anyone. Stellar applicant? Well, unless your #1 Harvard promised you that spot ahead of time (and you got it in writing), if #2 UCSF offers you an acceptance and you have two weeks to accept, but your Harvard interview is in three weeks, then you either take your #2 spot at UCSF or you roll the dice by declining them and see what Harvard says...

And visa-versa for stellar programs trying to get stellar applicants.

Now repeat x30,000, or however many applicants there are per year. Imagine just the amount of time all that correspondence/coordination takes. And how many broken hearts results because of subpar matches. Some programs and/or applicants got lucky, but ultimately more people/programs ended up more miserable than they could've been with the Match.

The Match is the least worst system we'll get. It essentially optimizes everyone's happiness (favoring the applicants though). Not happy with your Match? Well, odds are even higher you'd be even more unhappy with the old system.

The Match should really be considered more for college applications in general.

Maybe for arranged marriages as well?
 
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