how competitive am i

[jackets5]

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Hi guys, i made the post about Ortho and Anesthesia. I m a US citizen but attend a Caribb school. I scored 226 on Step 1. Im thinking of trying the ortho route since i have some good connections at some big name places and fairly high positions but im still realistic about it. How competitive am i for Anesthesia, not looking for a Hopkins, Harvard etc. But a good mid-tier University program on the east coast. For Anesthesia i have a family friend who is an Anesthesiologist for a big name group in NY who would write me an amazing letter and call around for me. Im asking since i have heard Anesthesia is very competitive to not so competitive, which is it. Thanks guys

 

[El Dooderino]

Your step 1 score is average and you're carib so not very competitive at all. Your letter from a PP anesthesiologist won't really help. You can probably match somewhere but your best bet would be the midwest.

 

[xbulletin]

It doesn't sound like you're looking for an opinion on your ortho chances, so I'll stick with anesthesia.

The private practice letter isn't going to help much. Theres no formula for calculating what step 1 score a carib student needs, but 226 is not going to help (or hurt). A university based program on the east coast may be shooting a bit high as is.

if you apply ortho, anesthesiology is simply not going to be an easy backup for you. If you can't do rotations in both ortho and anesthesia, you should consider focusing on one. Unless your ortho connections are really that outstanding, I'd suggest focusing on anesthesia (a carib student with mid 220s step 1 matching into ortho sounds really tough).

Here is what you can do to improve your chances. Get some anesthesiology rotations in EARLY (like June, July, or earlier) from reasonable places you would consider going to. Collect letters from those places from academic anesthesiologists. Take step II early and study hard.

 

[LolaAnesthesia]

I agree. Try to score some Anesthesiology/Critical Care rotations in places where you would like to apply. Honor those rotations and get some good letters. Also, as was mentioned before, rock Step 2 (245+).

 

[caprisun]

Anesthesiology is one of those programs that have a large range in Step 1 scores. The top ranking programs can receive applicants in the 240+ range while the average is still in the 220's. So I find it difficult to gauge where I have a good shot at. Was hoping to get some educated input from those who have already gone down this road so that I have an idea about where to do aways.

What specific programs are reasonable, which would be reach, and which would be out of the question? Also, anything that would make me more competitive? Ideally, would like to be at a big name or a program in California (note: I am a non-California resident).

Step 1: 234
Mid-tier US allopathic school in the midwest
Average to above-avg class rank
Expecting pretty decent letters
Mix of honors and advanced in 3rd year clerkships
5-6 publications from undergrad/grad school unrelated to anesthesia but still in medical-related specialties
Master's degree in sciences

Any input would be great. Thanks.

 

[xbulletin]

While there are no guarantees you'll match at an elite program, I don't think any program is really out of reach for you. You do have a chance to match anywhere based on your scores/grades/etc.

For california, you may get interviews anyway. But you can help yourself by choosing a california program that interests you and doing an away rotation there. It not only will get you an interview there, but will demonstrate to other cali programs that you're serious about moving to california, and will help get interviews.

 

[El Dooderino]

While there are no guarantees you'll match at an elite program, I don't think any program is really out of reach for you. You do have a chance to match anywhere based on your scores/grades/etc.

For california, you may get interviews anyway. But you can help yourself by choosing a california program that interests you and doing an away rotation there. It not only will get you an interview there, but will demonstrate to other cali programs that you're serious about moving to california, and will help get interviews.

I know both ucsf and Stanford don't give interviews to everyone who does aways there. I think the brigham/mgh/ucsf level programs may be more of a challenge for you but I would apply to all of the top programs and I'm sure you'll get plenty of bites

 

[LolaAnesthesia]

Anesthesiology is one of those programs that have a large range in Step 1 scores. The top ranking programs can receive applicants in the 240+ range while the average is still in the 220's. So I find it difficult to gauge where I have a good shot at. Was hoping to get some educated input from those who have already gone down this road so that I have an idea about where to do aways.

What specific programs are reasonable, which would be reach, and which would be out of the question? Also, anything that would make me more competitive? Ideally, would like to be at a big name or a program in California (note: I am a non-California resident).

Step 1: 234
Mid-tier US allopathic school in the midwest
Average to above-avg class rank
Expecting pretty decent letters
Mix of honors and advanced in 3rd year clerkships
5-6 publications from undergrad/grad school unrelated to anesthesia but still in medical-related specialties
Master's degree in sciences

Any input would be great. Thanks.

Bottom line is that applying to programs is cheap. Why not apply to all the programs you would like to check out? Interviews are a crapshoot. You never know why you were invited to one and not to another, specially when you get invited by the MGHs and not the UPENNs... or worse... you get invited at Hopkins and not at Ubaluba Medicine.

It is up to you to make your application competitive and stand out. The rest will be in your letters, Step scores, and grades.

 

[bkell101]

Hello everybody,

I have a question similar to the original poster...
(I'm fairly new to SDN and don't know much about the competitiveness of programs ect so please excuse my ignorance)

I'm a DO student interested in Anesthesiology w/ comlex 646 and usmle 1 239. Mostly honors, hopefully solid letters. People have mentioned that it takes scores of 240+ to match into anesthesiology residency programs if you are an FMG. Is that true for the DO students as well?

I have seen several programs with DO grads (uWash even) and was wondering what it takes to gain acceptance to a more desirable location/program as a DO. Any opinions/experiences/advice? -thanks in advance, very much appreciated.

 

[xbulletin]

No. A DO student does not need a 240+ to match into anesthesia. With a 239, you should have no problem matching into an anesthesiology program.


Most elite programs and some programs in desired areas (NYC) are not particularly DO friendly. But there are still a lot of great places that interview and match DOs. I wouldn't take Step II, as you dont want to risk scoring lower. I'd consider doing an away rotation at a place that accepts DOs.

 

[LolaAnesthesia]

Hello everybody,

I have a question similar to the original poster...
(I'm fairly new to SDN and don't know much about the competitiveness of programs ect so please excuse my ignorance)

I'm a DO student interested in Anesthesiology w/ comlex 646 and usmle 1 239. Mostly honors, hopefully solid letters. People have mentioned that it takes scores of 240+ to match into anesthesiology residency programs if you are an FMG. Is that true for the DO students as well?

I have seen several programs with DO grads (uWash even) and was wondering what it takes to gain acceptance to a more desirable location/program as a DO. Any opinions/experiences/advice? -thanks in advance, very much appreciated.

I interviewed at many top East Coast programs. All had faculty and residents who were DOs.

 

[CardiacIntensivist]

I interviewed at many top East Coast programs. All had faculty and residents who were DOs.

I did also, the only "top" program I saw with DOs on faculty/residents was BIDMC...which ones are you talking about?

 

[modelslashactor]

I did also, the only "top" program I saw with DOs on faculty/residents was BIDMC...which ones are you talking about?

Hopkins and Penn come to mind - that's all I saw though.

Also met a Caribbean grad at Stanford so anything's possible...

 

[El Dooderino]

I did also, the only "top" program I saw with DOs on faculty/residents was BIDMC...which ones are you talking about?

I didn't meet a single attending, resident, or applicant that was a DO at the big time programs. Just looked at the Penn faculty and they have zero. Of course DO's should apply to take a chance, but it's definitely very uncommon.

 

[CardiacIntensivist]

I didn't meet a single attending, resident, or applicant that was a DO at the big time programs. Just looked at the Penn faculty and they have zero. Of course DO's should apply to take a chance, but it's definitely very uncommon.

yeah, that's what I thought. I'm pretty sure BIDMC was the only one with DO-s. They had one as a chief and one in the CA-2 class. Also the education chair is a DO. Definitely did not see one at Penn, MGH, Brigham, Columbia, Cornell and I know for a fact there is none at Sinai. Didn't interview at Hopkins.

 

[intubatethis]

Caprisun, your profile is exactly the same as mine. I'm a 4th year waiting to match, had a 234, and had pretty much everything else the same as you. Apply broadly. You'll be surprised how many interviews you'll get. I got Penn, MGH, bid, all the NYC schools, etc. You won't hear from some programs but you'll get plenty of invites. Nail down good lors, write an interesting ps, and pm me if you want more advice.

Ps. You may find CA hard to crack. I lived in San Diego for 4 years before medical school and heard nothing from ucsd or ucsf. I recommend you call the programs in November to tell them how interested you are.

 

[LolaAnesthesia]

yeah, that's what I thought. I'm pretty sure BIDMC was the only one with DO-s. They had one as a chief and one in the CA-2 class. Also the education chair is a DO. Definitely did not see one at Penn, MGH, Brigham, Columbia, Cornell and I know for a fact there is none at Sinai. Didn't interview at Hopkins.

Hopkins and BIDMC, definitely. Both residents and attendings who were DOs. In the midwest, Mayo does too. Other not so top programs had PDs that were DO too... I just remember seeing them around. Bottom line is that I don't think that a DO with good Step 1 scores would be at a bid disadvantage.

 

[CardiacIntensivist]

True. Though I think one should apply wherever they feel, I would caution a DO they they would have to be STELLAR to have a chance at Hopkins or BIDMC. In all honesty, one can not kid themselves in to thinking that an MD allopathic student doesn't have an advantage over a DO student if they have comparable scores, research and extracurriculars. I'm sure the DOs that got into BIDMC or Hopkins must be amazing.

 

[michigangirl]

I can only speak for Hopkins, but I have to agree with last poster-- almost all of our DO residents are spectacular-- I've only worked with them clinically but if their academic scores/grades jive with their clinical accumen, they definitely were above and beyond. Chief residents, competitive fellowships, awesome PP gigs-- they land them all because they are top notch.

And yes, to confirm, Hopkins has MANY DO attendings, fellows and residents in our anesthesia department.

 

[CardiacIntensivist]

Oops, have to correct myself. Not that it matters at all anyway but there is a DO fellow in Cardiac Anesthesia at Sinai.

Overall I think the point for the DO student is that with an average Step I and coming from a DO school, top tier are definitely a huge stretch. The mid-tier east coast programs that you seek are probably also going to be a stretch too. But boost the rest of your application and there is no harm in trying. At the very least you're not in a position where others would recommend that you don't try at all.

 

[bkell101]

Thanks for the previous responses...
The reason I initially posted the question was because of audition rotation planning. I would assume that rotating through a program would improve my chances of gaining acceptence (assuming i'm hard working, personable, knowledgeable ect).

Let's say I'm interested in a variety of programs from a competitiveness standpoint. Would it be wise to rotate through a program that isn't as much of a long shot and I'm more likely to get into? (Since I don't have superstar stats 239 step1 w/o crazy publications)...

Or do you just say the heck with it, and audition wherever you'd like? (Since I would consider myself hardworking and easy to get along with)

Also, Can anybody comment on the competitiveness of the following programs...
University of Colorado in Denver
Oregon Health and Sciences in Portland
UT Southwester in Dallas
UWash in Seattle
Virginia Mason in Seattle
Anything in the Chicago area (my hometown)

thanks again!

 

[CardiacIntensivist]

Don't just audition where you'd like. Think about the statistics. If a program has historically shown that it doesn't take non-MD allopathics, why would there be a sudden change of heart. Especially since, as you said, you do not have stellar numbers. A good personality and work ethic can go a long way but if you wouldn't even make it past the screening process....

Aim for programs in which you would have a decent shot at getting into. An away elective there should be done to help you over that hump of getting an interview.

I can't comment on those programs you listed but I'm pretty sure U-Wash is pretty freaking competitive.

 

[xbulletin]

University of Colorado in Denver- A lot of people want to live in Denver and this is a known program. Very competitive.
Oregon Health and Sciences in Portland- Very competitive.
UT Southwester in Dallas- Very competitive.
UWash in Seattle- Extremely competitive
Virginia Mason in Seattle- Don't know
Anything in the Chicago area (my hometown)- Northwestern and U Chicago, both very competitive. Rush and Loyola not so much.

Look, it may be worth it for you to apply to all of these programs. But realistically, they are all very competitive places. You could count on any of them being a sure thing. You should definitely apply way more broadly than this, with a good mix of mid-tier and low-tier programs because things will be tougher for a DO student.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

University of Colorado in Denver- A lot of people want to live in Denver and this is a known program. Very competitive.
Oregon Health and Sciences in Portland- Very competitive.
UT Southwester in Dallas- Very competitive.
UWash in Seattle- Extremely competitive
Virginia Mason in Seattle- Don't know
Anything in the Chicago area (my hometown)- Northwestern and U Chicago, both very competitive. Rush and Loyola not so much.

Look, it may be worth it for you to apply to all of these programs. But realistically, they are all very competitive places. You could count on any of them being a sure thing. You should definitely apply way more broadly than this, with a good mix of mid-tier and low-tier programs because things will be tougher for a DO student.

Loyola and Rush apparently were quite competitive this year, but don't know for sure. The program coordinators seemed very snooty over the phone when I'd contacted them.

Honestly, I'm not even sure what's a "low-tiered" program, and I applied this year... maybe if I'd a clue, I may have had more success than the 7 I had

 

[bkell101]

Few more questions...(I just completed my rotation in anesthesia and loved it...had no clue I would be interested in this and I really don't know much yet)

1. How can I find a general list or anesthesia programs listed by ranking/tier? (I just randomly listed the previous programs based on location and the fact that they currently have DO's in their program or faculty)

2. Would anybody like to share their audition/match experience and strategy as a DO applying to allopathic programs?

3. The average score for matched students in anesthesia in 2009 was 226....anybody have an idea of how high the scores are of those who match at the top 20 (or so) most desirable programs in the country? (or how strong of a resume it takes). There are DO grads in some of those programs...are their stats even higher?

Thanks again!

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Dude, you're fine with a 239.
Just apply broadly and you're fine.

 

[TrojanGopher]

UWash in Seattle- Extremely competitive
Virginia Mason in Seattle- Don't know

For whatever it's worth, my personal experience is that VM is very competitive. I got an interview at UWash but not at VM (I'm from the midwest but went to undergrad on the west coast).

 

[xbulletin]

1. How can I find a general list or anesthesia programs listed by ranking/tier? (I just randomly listed the previous programs based on location and the fact that they currently have DO's in their program or faculty)

No such list really exists. There's a lot of subjectivity in the tiers people put anesthesia programs in. You'll get good training at any ACGME accredited program.

3. The average score for matched students in anesthesia in 2009 was 226....anybody have an idea of how high the scores are of those who match at the top 20 (or so) most desirable programs in the country? (or how strong of a resume it takes). There are DO grads in some of those programs...are their stats even higher?

No real formula for this. Most programs look at your scores as just a part of the picture. The average for all US seniors was 226, but DOs accepted generally need higher scores. You're very good with a 239. You'll get interviews anywhere that interviews/accepts DOs. But of course there are programs that don't look at DOs and you cant expect interviews from them even if you were sporting a 260.

 

[CardiacIntensivist]

1. How can I find a general list or anesthesia programs listed by ranking/tier? (I just randomly listed the previous programs based on location and the fact that they currently have DO's in their program or faculty)

No such list really exists. There's a lot of subjectivity in the tiers people put anesthesia programs in. You'll get good training at any ACGME accredited program.

3. The average score for matched students in anesthesia in 2009 was 226....anybody have an idea of how high the scores are of those who match at the top 20 (or so) most desirable programs in the country? (or how strong of a resume it takes). There are DO grads in some of those programs...are their stats even higher?

No real formula for this. Most programs look at your scores as just a part of the picture. The average for all US seniors was 226, but DOs accepted generally need higher scores. You're very good with a 239. You'll get interviews anywhere that interviews/accepts DOs. But of course there are programs that don't look at DOs and you cant expect interviews from them even if you were sporting a 260.

From my discussions with various attendings, interviewers etc, it seems like if you just want to learn to be a good anesthesiologist you can really go almost anywhere. But if you want to be a leader in the field, get involved with research, ultimately join academia you should go to a higher tier, academic program.

 

[xbulletin]

True. I think if you want to get involved in research/academia, you can do a fellowship at some elite academic place as a way in, regardless of your residency location.

 

[karizma098]

I didn't meet a single attending, resident, or applicant that was a DO at the big time programs. Just looked at the Penn faculty and they have zero. Of course DO's should apply to take a chance, but it's definitely very uncommon.

that's not true. There are DO's at hopkins and Uchicago anesthesia from my school, that's just off the top of my head.

 

[karizma098]

Loyola and Rush apparently were quite competitive this year, but don't know for sure. The program coordinators seemed very snooty over the phone when I'd contacted them.

Honestly, I'm not even sure what's a "low-tiered" program, and I applied this year... maybe if I'd a clue, I may have had more success than the 7 I had

yeah, i dont know why. Loyola and Rush both had empty seats last year; you think they'd learn their lesson. I have to friends , both with under 220 on step1, who are supposedly 'in' at loyola. not super competitive in my opinion.

 

[El Dooderino]

that's not true. There are DO's at hopkins and Uchicago anesthesia from my school, that's just off the top of my head.

Yeah, you're right. I retract my original statement, there are a ton of DO's at top programs. I wish I would have went DO!

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

yeah, i dont know why. Loyola and Rush both had empty seats last year; you think they'd learn their lesson. I have to friends , both with under 220 on step1, who are supposedly 'in' at loyola. not super competitive in my opinion.

Are you at CCOM?
I probably should have auditioned there and Rush... didn't know they were "low-tiered"... should've done my homework.. hopefully it all works out though.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Yeah, you're right. I retract my original statement, there are a ton of DO's at top programs. I wish I would have went DO!

Sarcasm noted.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

Yeah, you're right. I retract my original statement, there are a ton of DO's at top programs. I wish I would have went DO!

 

[karizma098]

Yeah, you're right. I retract my original statement, there are a ton of DO's at top programs. I wish I would have went DO!

No, there aren't a ton of DO's at top programs, there aren't many at all. but there are certainly some. Acting like a jackass about it isn't really cool, man, but hey, you're a really funny guy. cheers for you. 👍

 

[karizma098]

Are you at CCOM?
I probably should have auditioned there and Rush... didn't know they were "low-tiered"... should've done my homework.. hopefully it all works out though.

they're not low-tiered, i'd say decently mid tiered for loyola, maybe a bit better for rush. loyola is more DO friendly in my experience. Audition rotation and a decent step 1 goes a long way there. good luck with everything at the end of the month.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

they're not low-tiered, i'd say decently mid tiered for loyola, maybe a bit better for rush. loyola is more DO friendly in my experience. Audition rotation and a decent step 1 goes a long way there. good luck with everything at the end of the month.

Thanks man

 

[CardiacIntensivist]

No, there aren't a ton of DO's at top programs, there aren't many at all. but there are certainly some. Acting like a jackass about it isn't really cool, man, but hey, you're a really funny guy. cheers for you. 👍

You're taking SDN too seriously.

 

[SweetSamadhi]

Last year, There was one student who matched into anesthesia at mayo and anther at st.lukes Roosevelt from my DO school. Whoop! Why be hating? I wish you all te best in your endeavors.

 

[lakersbaby]

Last year, There was one student who matched into anesthesia at mayo and anther at st.lukes Roosevelt from my DO school. Whoop! Why be hating? I wish you all te best in your endeavors.

i thought UPENN had a few DOs there also.

 

[Josh1]

I thought programs wanted normal functioning, hard working individuals. Who cares about the letters after your name. I go to an allopathic school and most of the DO students I interact with who are residents at my institution are just as intelligent and keen as the MDs. There are individual exceptions, but no blanket statement like 'all [insert job type] are like [....]' ever holds true for anyone who's ever had any life experience