How different are big cases from little cases?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Maybedoc1

Full Member
7+ Year Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2017
Messages
349
Reaction score
402
MS4 trying to figure out what I’m applying to in September. I’ve had a bear of a time trying to figure out my specialty. Choosing a specialty after a month or two of rotations is hard. When electives finally started for me earlier this spring I narrowed it down to EM, anesthesia, IM, or radiology.

Since then I ruled out EM (really love the specialty for a number of reasons but I was concerned with longevity).

I did an anesthesia elective back in April and I liked it, but I wasn’t over the moon with it. We spent two weeks at a community level 1 trauma hospital and 2 weeks at a big tertiary children’s hospital. Most of the cases I were put in were pretty straight forward with healthy patients (like ASA 1-2 ortho, gallbladders, tonsillectomies, etc.) I did get to see a big serious trauma and a Norwood at the children’s hospital which was incredibly interesting. My thoughts overall on the rotation were that it was good, but I didn’t find a ton of the cases that interesting, but I also recognize that I wasn’t seeing the pinnacle of anesthesia with the majority of these cases and I was basically shadowing the entire time. Not once was I asked to try and come up with an anesthetic plan myself. I really liked how it was basically applied physiology, I liked how hands on it was, I like the critical care and occasional high acuity aspect of it (I like acuity and would likely do a critical care fellowship if I did anesthesia or IM), and it has minimal bs like notes, spending half your day mindlessly clicking through epic etc. It did feel a little repetitive with one case being about the same as the next but again I spent a lot of time doing things like tonsillectomies on healthy children. I also didn’t think through diagnoses a lot which is something I enjoy, but I guess isn’t an absolute must for me.

After that rotation I was kind of thinking I may apply to anesthesia if I didn’t like my radiology rotation or my IM rotation. I did my radiology rotation and found it super interesting even if it was just shadowing. I loved the huge knowledge base, focus on diagnosis, being the “doctors doctor”, technology, and the lack of bs. Although I’d be lying if I didn’t have big reservations about staring at a screen for 8 hours a day churning out study after study. I also really like acuity and critical care and would have to say goodbye to that with radiology which is causing me major pause. It’s also 6 years and if it turns out I don’t like imaging that much then I can only really do IR or switch specialties completely.

I thought IM could be a good mix with diagnosis, physiology, pharm, etc. on paper IM is super interesting to me as it’s basically all the interesting stuff you learn in medical school, however I’m currently on my IM sub I and I’m really disliking it. Sure the medicine can be very interesting (thinking through nephrotic syndrome vs. nephritic syndrome work ups, infectious disease, etc) but so much of the job just isn’t that. It’s so much care coordination, being on the computer but not really thinking too hard, and epic chats. I feel exhausted at the end of the day, but not in a good way. IM obviously offers a ton of flexibility with fellowships and everything but I’m not sure if I want to do three years of IM just to hopefully match into a competitive fellowship and then do another 3 years after that. I can only delay gratification for so long and I don’t think I’d be happy as a PCP or hospitalist. Of note I’ve felt this way on every IM rotation but I keep trying to convince myself it’s a good fit.

I guess I’m leaning towards radiology at this point, but I’m considering doing an anesthesia subspecialty rotation (cardiac, transplant, etc) right before applications just to make sure that my feelings about the rotation weren’t just due to the cases I was placed in. On paper I think I’d really enjoy CT anesthesia and anesthesia critical care and it would be the same years of training as DR. I’ve spoken with a number of anesthesiologists who admittedly say they don’t find things like a ASA 2 lap chole interesting but love the bigger cases so I’m wondering if I just haven’t had enough exposure to those.

Any thoughts? And yes I know these are all very different specialties but I have interest in many things.
 
There are simple vs complex anesthetic cases, generally related to pathophysiology, and there are simple vs complex (“big cases”) surgical cases, generally related to anatomy. This anesthetic vs surgical complexity does not always match up.
Often a big surgical case will be a relatively more involved anesthetic because of fluid shifts or more medications given but a minor surgical operation on a complex medical patient can be just as intellectually and physically challenging.
 
Yeah big or small patients
Ha ha

By that I mean the most dangerous patient is the Asa 1 mother of 3. You cannot f up on those patients.

Do you really think I care if asa 5e patient with bleeding aneurysm dies on me? No. I do the best I can.

It’s the routine labor epidurals on a previous patient with a meningocele who got meningitis after her previous epidural. Those are the dangerous cases. Actually advise patient not to
Have epidural. Ended up going to sleep for cs.

Those cases comes with experience.

So it’s not the big or small cases. It’s the patient.
 
You have to also consider that acuity of care and the associated stress levels is going to be different between those specialties. The cliche that anesthesia is 90% calm/boredom and 10% sheer terror is applicable. You’ll be trained to be vigilant during those moments of calm, so I think it’s hard to be “bored” even if it’s an “ASA2 lap chole”. I’m not trying to intimidate or sway anyone away from anesthesia; with good training, you’ll be more than capable of mitigating risk and handling a crisis, these points are just not something I could comprehend as a student. I really like my specialty, but there are days I wish I had a job where a mistake didn’t mean life or death. I think it is important to be as realistic as possible about the specialty you choose.
 
MS4 trying to figure out what I’m applying to in September. I’ve had a bear of a time trying to figure out my specialty. Choosing a specialty after a month or two of rotations is hard. When electives finally started for me earlier this spring I narrowed it down to EM, anesthesia, IM, or radiology.

Since then I ruled out EM (really love the specialty for a number of reasons but I was concerned with longevity).

I did an anesthesia elective back in April and I liked it, but I wasn’t over the moon with it. We spent two weeks at a community level 1 trauma hospital and 2 weeks at a big tertiary children’s hospital. Most of the cases I were put in were pretty straight forward with healthy patients (like ASA 1-2 ortho, gallbladders, tonsillectomies, etc.) I did get to see a big serious trauma and a Norwood at the children’s hospital which was incredibly interesting. My thoughts overall on the rotation were that it was good, but I didn’t find a ton of the cases that interesting, but I also recognize that I wasn’t seeing the pinnacle of anesthesia with the majority of these cases and I was basically shadowing the entire time. Not once was I asked to try and come up with an anesthetic plan myself. I really liked how it was basically applied physiology, I liked how hands on it was, I like the critical care and occasional high acuity aspect of it (I like acuity and would likely do a critical care fellowship if I did anesthesia or IM), and it has minimal bs like notes, spending half your day mindlessly clicking through epic etc. It did feel a little repetitive with one case being about the same as the next but again I spent a lot of time doing things like tonsillectomies on healthy children. I also didn’t think through diagnoses a lot which is something I enjoy, but I guess isn’t an absolute must for me.

After that rotation I was kind of thinking I may apply to anesthesia if I didn’t like my radiology rotation or my IM rotation. I did my radiology rotation and found it super interesting even if it was just shadowing. I loved the huge knowledge base, focus on diagnosis, being the “doctors doctor”, technology, and the lack of bs. Although I’d be lying if I didn’t have big reservations about staring at a screen for 8 hours a day churning out study after study. I also really like acuity and critical care and would have to say goodbye to that with radiology which is causing me major pause. It’s also 6 years and if it turns out I don’t like imaging that much then I can only really do IR or switch specialties completely.

I thought IM could be a good mix with diagnosis, physiology, pharm, etc. on paper IM is super interesting to me as it’s basically all the interesting stuff you learn in medical school, however I’m currently on my IM sub I and I’m really disliking it. Sure the medicine can be very interesting (thinking through nephrotic syndrome vs. nephritic syndrome work ups, infectious disease, etc) but so much of the job just isn’t that. It’s so much care coordination, being on the computer but not really thinking too hard, and epic chats. I feel exhausted at the end of the day, but not in a good way. IM obviously offers a ton of flexibility with fellowships and everything but I’m not sure if I want to do three years of IM just to hopefully match into a competitive fellowship and then do another 3 years after that. I can only delay gratification for so long and I don’t think I’d be happy as a PCP or hospitalist. Of note I’ve felt this way on every IM rotation but I keep trying to convince myself it’s a good fit.

I guess I’m leaning towards radiology at this point, but I’m considering doing an anesthesia subspecialty rotation (cardiac, transplant, etc) right before applications just to make sure that my feelings about the rotation weren’t just due to the cases I was placed in. On paper I think I’d really enjoy CT anesthesia and anesthesia critical care and it would be the same years of training as DR. I’ve spoken with a number of anesthesiologists who admittedly say they don’t find things like a ASA 2 lap chole interesting but love the bigger cases so I’m wondering if I just haven’t had enough exposure to those.

Any thoughts? And yes I know these are all very different specialties but I have interest in many things.
I tell residents and students that everything seems fun and interesting when you first start doing it. But after awhile, it all becomes routine. For a surgeon, the 1000th lap chole just isn't that interesting.

Find a specialty where you enjoy the general aspects of it. Types of procedures, lifestyle, type and amount of patient interactions, income, entrepreneur vs employee options.

You will be doing it for 30 years
 
Ha ha

By that I mean the most dangerous patient is the Asa 1 mother of 3. You cannot f up on those patients.

Do you really think I care if asa 5e patient with bleeding aneurysm dies on me? No. I do the best I can.

It’s the routine labor epidurals on a previous patient with a meningocele who got meningitis after her previous epidural. Those are the dangerous cases. Actually advise patient not to
Have epidural. Ended up going to sleep for cs.

Those cases comes with experience.

So it’s not the big or small cases. It’s the patient.
I know I know. I was just kidding haha
 
If you enjoyed radiology by just shadowing, then I’d say do it. I was also between radiology and anesthesia for very similar reasons as you. However when I shadowed radiology, I felt so bored. Hindsight is I probably just had no idea what was going on. Anesthesia was interesting because of the acuity and applied physiology which made me very interested in ccm.

You should try to do an IR rotation or body radiology. They have procedural aspects to it. Maybe even neuro/neuro IR. From reading your post, radiology appears to be your #1 so just solidify that with more rotations. Radiology is 5 years without fellowship btw. It’s +/- how many do fellowships but I would gather it’s more than not. Good thing all the fellowships are 1 year in length. Also is the case in anesthesia.

The typical “big cases” you mention would be any types of transplant or CT cases. But most importantly as mentioned before, any sick patient will be a big case.

At the end of the day, direct patient care has different stresses than the churning of image studies. I don’t know enough to say about radiology, but I’ll tell you a lot of people will say that clinical bedside care is overrated. Sadly. I still love my patients. However there are so many times I think to myself I’d be happy to trade this for a job I could remotely (ie radiology!).
 
Just remember that all radiology is shadowing. Literally all of it. You live in the shadows looking at shadows while mentoring students who are shadowing, while you slowly become a shadow of your former self, beyond the shadow of a doubt. All the while, you give all of your money to Charity...unless it is her day off. Then you give it to Destiny...or Shadow.
JK…kind of…
 
Last edited:
I recall briefly shadowing a private practice radiologist. One of his monitors had a list of films yet to be read and there were like 50 patients on the list. Dude seemed kinda stressed and irritated lol. Seems like perhaps the worst job imaginable to me, like taking Step 1 everyday.
 
I recall briefly shadowing a private practice radiologist. One of his monitors had a list of films yet to be read and there were like 50 patients on the list. Dude seemed kinda stressed and irritated lol. Seems like perhaps the worst job imaginable to me, like taking Step 1 everyday.

And if you miss a ditzel that's a lawsuit
 
Agree with earlier sentiment about picking something that you can do day after day in your 20th year.

Just remember that anesthesia is getting a bit like EM with mid level issues. However the CRNAs haven’t taken a pay cut yet but who knows in the next 4-5 years. We also don’t know if the model will just extend us as more of the older docs retire. Can’t say ASA will advocate for no more than 1:4 since their corporate donors matter more than individuals it appears.

Though IM and a subspecialty may give you something interesting that isn’t stressful like ASA 4+ pts in the evening on call. Plus the whole call thing is getting really old.
 
Agree with earlier sentiment about picking something that you can do day after day in your 20th year.

Just remember that anesthesia is getting a bit like EM with mid level issues. However the CRNAs haven’t taken a pay cut yet but who knows in the next 4-5 years. We also don’t know if the model will just extend us as more of the older docs retire. Can’t say ASA will advocate for no more than 1:4 since their corporate donors matter more than individuals it appears.

Though IM and a subspecialty may give you something interesting that isn’t stressful like ASA 4+ pts in the evening on call. Plus the whole call thing is getting really old.

Insurance companies are coming after crna reimbursements in the near future. They've already started
 
Insurance companies are coming after crna reimbursements in the near future. They've already started
I’m curious how that will apply since both docs and nurses rely on facility reimbursement to augment the already poor reimbursement by CMS and many insurance companies. Is there some specific rule they planning on? Like 60% for QZ or even supervision 1:5+?
 
For every anesthesiologist that loves big cases, you'll find another that hates them. Variety is king. We have ASC people that only do eyes or only do sports cases with the same surgeons. I would absolutely hate that. It can get very boring after a while and your skills might atrophy.

That being said, the most important thing is doing your own cases. I'd take a solo ASC job any day of the week over a 4:1 "supervising" inpatient job.
 
For every anesthesiologist that loves big cases, you'll find another that hates them. Variety is king. We have ASC people that only do eyes or only do sports cases with the same surgeons. I would absolutely hate that. It can get very boring after a while and your skills might atrophy.

That being said, the most important thing is doing your own cases. I'd take a solo ASC job any day of the week over a 4:1 "supervising" inpatient job.
In certain parts of the country the only jobs are supervision. This is a reality that OP must accept.
 
In certain parts of the country the only jobs are supervision. This is a reality that OP must accept.
Yeah. That is unfortunate. Corporate whether PE or hospital system want to save bucks. 1:4 is already nuts when you have 2 block rooms plus something serious going on in #3 while you pray #4 doesn’t overhead page you.
 
MS4 trying to figure out what I’m applying to in September. I’ve had a bear of a time trying to figure out my specialty. Choosing a specialty after a month or two of rotations is hard. When electives finally started for me earlier this spring I narrowed it down to EM, anesthesia, IM, or radiology.

Since then I ruled out EM (really love the specialty for a number of reasons but I was concerned with longevity).

I did an anesthesia elective back in April and I liked it, but I wasn’t over the moon with it. We spent two weeks at a community level 1 trauma hospital and 2 weeks at a big tertiary children’s hospital. Most of the cases I were put in were pretty straight forward with healthy patients (like ASA 1-2 ortho, gallbladders, tonsillectomies, etc.) I did get to see a big serious trauma and a Norwood at the children’s hospital which was incredibly interesting. My thoughts overall on the rotation were that it was good, but I didn’t find a ton of the cases that interesting, but I also recognize that I wasn’t seeing the pinnacle of anesthesia with the majority of these cases and I was basically shadowing the entire time. Not once was I asked to try and come up with an anesthetic plan myself. I really liked how it was basically applied physiology, I liked how hands on it was, I like the critical care and occasional high acuity aspect of it (I like acuity and would likely do a critical care fellowship if I did anesthesia or IM), and it has minimal bs like notes, spending half your day mindlessly clicking through epic etc. It did feel a little repetitive with one case being about the same as the next but again I spent a lot of time doing things like tonsillectomies on healthy children. I also didn’t think through diagnoses a lot which is something I enjoy, but I guess isn’t an absolute must for me.

After that rotation I was kind of thinking I may apply to anesthesia if I didn’t like my radiology rotation or my IM rotation. I did my radiology rotation and found it super interesting even if it was just shadowing. I loved the huge knowledge base, focus on diagnosis, being the “doctors doctor”, technology, and the lack of bs. Although I’d be lying if I didn’t have big reservations about staring at a screen for 8 hours a day churning out study after study. I also really like acuity and critical care and would have to say goodbye to that with radiology which is causing me major pause. It’s also 6 years and if it turns out I don’t like imaging that much then I can only really do IR or switch specialties completely.

I thought IM could be a good mix with diagnosis, physiology, pharm, etc. on paper IM is super interesting to me as it’s basically all the interesting stuff you learn in medical school, however I’m currently on my IM sub I and I’m really disliking it. Sure the medicine can be very interesting (thinking through nephrotic syndrome vs. nephritic syndrome work ups, infectious disease, etc) but so much of the job just isn’t that. It’s so much care coordination, being on the computer but not really thinking too hard, and epic chats. I feel exhausted at the end of the day, but not in a good way. IM obviously offers a ton of flexibility with fellowships and everything but I’m not sure if I want to do three years of IM just to hopefully match into a competitive fellowship and then do another 3 years after that. I can only delay gratification for so long and I don’t think I’d be happy as a PCP or hospitalist. Of note I’ve felt this way on every IM rotation but I keep trying to convince myself it’s a good fit.

I guess I’m leaning towards radiology at this point, but I’m considering doing an anesthesia subspecialty rotation (cardiac, transplant, etc) right before applications just to make sure that my feelings about the rotation weren’t just due to the cases I was placed in. On paper I think I’d really enjoy CT anesthesia and anesthesia critical care and it would be the same years of training as DR. I’ve spoken with a number of anesthesiologists who admittedly say they don’t find things like a ASA 2 lap chole interesting but love the bigger cases so I’m wondering if I just haven’t had enough exposure to those.

Any thoughts? And yes I know these are all very different specialties but I have interest in many things.
Theres so much variation in each case, it's hard to generalize. Plus the asa score is a total crude indicator of health, or difficulty for an an anesthesiologist.


But in general, yes there is probably nothing easier than a true asa2 lap chole...

There is also very little that's difficult about a straightforward cabg on someone with ccs2 symptoms and a good surgeon...

So there... clear as mud...

After a few hundred of any case it all starts to become easy enough...

We do daily bentalls and last week a pulmonary thrombectomy that fell apart post op... you just go thru the algorithms and do your best... you can't save everyone...
So there's some respite in that... it doesn't make it easier but it does change the internal strife in you...

Every job becomes just a job after a few years. If it didn't then you wouldn't have mastered your craft...

And there always other things to keep you from being bored. Some do OR mgt, some do training, some buy stocks, or nonsense off Amazon.
 
If you can match rads, don't think twice
My awesome private hospital surgery internship in Paradise had a one radiology spot per year residency. I really really really wanted to talk myself into gunning for it and did a 2 week elective with them. Never have I been more disappointed and bored out of my mind. It was like Internal Medicine Fleas except with images instead of patients.

People in anesthesia typically like fast results. We aren't into long drawn out discussion. They would hold up a single image and then talk about it for a solid 30+ minutes. What do you think it is? Well what else could be? And how would that present? What about this other insignificant ditzel over here? Could it be a tumor? Let's spend 20 minutes talking about all the tumors that like to metastasize to this region. On and on and on. Allllll day long.
I mean just f****** shoot me.

Needless to say I didn't apply for the spot.
 
Top