How difficult is it for a DO to become an anesthesiologist?

[mrh125]

I remember reading about how it can be more difficult for DOs to get into surgical specialities, but another speciality i'm interested in is anesthesiology. Does being a DO make it more difficult to become an anesthesiologist? Do DOs have to jump through any additional hoops to become anesthesiologists or are anesthesiologist residency programs relatively simple to get into? (by that I Mean no added complications/the same as MDs).

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[cliquesh]

Its more difficult to match anesthesia as a DO than an USMD student. It is, however, not significantly more difficult. If you do a little above average (230 on the usmle) you'll match somewhere.

 

[John Doughnut]

I heard you'd have to score 5000 on the USMLE and be from the most prestigious DO school to even get a whiff of gas.

Wait a minute. Nope.

This is pretty alarming: how could one even consider themselves a viable medical school candidate yet not possess the resourcefulness to find the kind of information that would adequately answer a question like this? Come on, son. Do a search. Ask Jeeves. Try virtually anything but regurgitate this rundown subject.

 

[mrh125]

Its more difficult to match anesthesia as a DO than an USMD student. It is, however, not significantly more difficult. If you do a little above average (230 on the usmle) you'll match somewhere.

Good to know. what would you say that a 230 on the USMLE step 1 is equivalent to on the mcat?

I heard you'd have to score 5000 on the USMLE and be from the most prestigious DO school to even get a whiff of gas.

Wait a minute. Nope.

This is pretty alarming: how could one even consider themselves a viable medical school candidate yet not possess the resourcefulness to find the kind of information that would adequately answer a question like this? Come on, son. Do a search. Ask Jeeves. Try virtually anything but regurgitate this rundown subject.

I'd rather interact with people on a forum that have researched the same thing or have experience that way I could ask more questions and find out more answers to the questions I have. Interacting with people >>> google. I also don't have the time to research every single question I have. between 30 medical schools, a personal statement, and compiling recommendation letters something's got to give.

 

[cliquesh]

A 230 is around the 60-65th percentile.

 

[mrh125]

A 230 is around the 60-65th percentile.

thanks 🙂. good, then i'm less worried assuming the trend for the mcat and step 1 is true seeing as i got a 28 and a 29 on the mcat.

 

[John Doughnut]

Good to know. what would you say that a 230 on the USMLE step 1 is equivalent to on the mcat?


I'd rather interact with people on a forum that have researched the same thing or have experience that way I could ask more questions and find out more answers to the questions I have. Interacting with people >>> google. I also don't have the time to research every single question I have. between 30 medical schools, a personal statement, and compiling recommendation letters something's got to give.

There is always time for this, especially when you need an answer badly enough.

My point is, if you are looking for sage advice coming from your "interactions with people", this, too, can be searched. Search it from within this site.

@cliquesh has probably doled out that same answer on more than a couple of occasions. I've been reading these forums for some time now, and this person has been fantastically generous with their time and answers.

 

[hallowmann]

A 230 is around the 60-65th percentile.

In fairness though, 60-65th percentile of US med students. Probably closer to 75-80th percentile (a pure guess) for MCAT.

That said a ton can change in 2 years of med school. I've literally watched a lot of my classmates (myself included) completely revamp (read: improve) how they study and function on exams in less than a year.

 

[user3]

anesthesiology is becoming less competitive due to CRNA and reimbursement concerns. Some of the docs in that forum are even recommending students avoid it all together

 

[cabinbuilder]

thanks 🙂. good, then i'm less worried assuming the trend for the mcat and step 1 is true seeing as i got a 28 and a 29 on the mcat.

the MCAT and Step I are two entirely different exams that test entirely different subjects. One does NOT relate to the other and your MCAT score in NO WAY relate to what you may or may not get on step I.

 

[chizledfrmstone]

In fairness though, 60-65th percentile of US med students. Probably closer to 75-80th percentile (a pure guess) for MCAT.

The avg MCAT for people taking USMLE is probably like 29 for a pool of MD/DO students combined. If you set that as the 50th percentile, wouldn't it be like a 31-32 MCAT*?

*Source: My a**.


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[p30doc]

Anesthesiology is a DO friendly field but there are a handful of places that won't take a DO still. With the impending merger those barriers are likely to be eroded. There are DOs at many of the elite programs. You won't have any breaks cut for you but if you are a decent applicant on par with your MD counterparts you should be able to land a spot somewhere.

Overall everything is becoming more competitive with the increase in the number and size of medical school classes that has been taking place.

 

[hallowmann]

The avg MCAT for people taking USMLE is probably like 29 for a pool of MD/DO students combined. If you set that as the 50th percentile, wouldn't it be like a 31-32 MCAT*?

*Source: My a**.


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I would agree with that except there are a ton more US MDs than there are DOs. Like 4 times more. On top of that, I think only around half (maybe slightly more than that) of DOs actually end up taking the USMLEs, whereas all US MDs take it. That probably makes it closer to an average of 30.

Making 30 the average, where a 30 in the MCAT puts you at ~78th percentile, that means in that group to get around 60th-65th percentile, you'd likely have to be in the 80s at least for percentile of the MCAT. Even with the 50th percentile being at 29 (~72nd percentile on the MCAT), you'd still have to be at the high 70s to low 80s to be in the 60-65th percentile of the USMLE.

Again though, this isn't all that meaningful since the correlation between MCAT and USMLE score is not that direct.

 

[chizledfrmstone]

I would agree with that except there are a ton more US MDs than there are DOs. Like 4 times more. On top of that, I think only around half (maybe slightly more than that) of DOs actually end up taking the USMLEs, whereas all US MDs take it. That probably makes it closer to an average of 30.

Making 30 the average, where a 30 in the MCAT puts you at ~78th percentile, that means in that group to get around 60th-65th percentile, you'd likely have to be in the 80s at least for percentile of the MCAT. Even with the 50th percentile being at 29 (~72nd percentile on the MCAT), you'd still have to be at the high 70s to low 80s to be in the 60-65th percentile of the USMLE.

Again though, this isn't all that meaningful since the correlation between MCAT and USMLE score is not that direct.

Wasn't there a subsection that correlated very well with USMLE?

Could have been BS. Problem is BS had OChem that I never bothered to study for.


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[hallowmann]

Wasn't there a subsection that correlated very well with USMLE?

Could have been BS. Problem is BS had OChem that I never bothered to study for.

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http://m.educus.com/Journals/17198300?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1&AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

It seems that as a predictive factor for Step 1, they are correlated by an R of 0.60 on a 95% CI of 0.50-0.67. The BS section seemed to be the most highly correlated subsection (R=0.48, not as high as test performance as a whole), and apparently both the BS and VS subsections were well correlated with Step 1 performance.

That said, 0.60 is not exactly a perfect correlation. While we can say there is absolutely a correlation, it is unrealistic to think that we could get anywhere close to saying X-percentile on MCAT = X-percentile on USMLE Step 1.

 

[cliquesh]

2013 NRMP Data shows on a rough ratio
4.2% Matched (748 US MD Seniors Matched out of 17487 total active MD Senior Applicants)
4.3% Matched (117 US DO Matched out of 2677 total active DO applicants)
1.1% Matched (54 IMG US Citizens out of total 5095 IMG US Citizens applicants)
0.67% Matched (51 IMG non-citizens out of total 7568 IMG non-citizens applicants

I follow this on the match for the past several years as one of my demographic test specialties for cross applicant type comparison. It has been stayed fairly consistent in percentages for the past 5 years, with DO edging up slightly .

BTW, the founder of OldPreMeds was a DO who went on to Dartmouth Anesthesiology for residency

In 2011, 121 out of the 129 USMDs applying for anesthesia with usmle step 1 scores between 201 and 210 matched.

9 of the 46 independent applicants, which includes IMGs and presumably some DOs, with the same scores matched.

It's harder as a DO, but by no means is it unreasonably difficult to match anesthesia as a DO. I applied for anesthesia last year. I applied to 60 programs and got around 40 interview invites. I had scores in the 250s and I was interviewing with USMDs with scores in the 230s.

I am just trying to give people realistic expectations here.

As you p30doc said, however, many good anesthesia programs take DOs.

The usmle and mcat are different tests. The usmle is all about knowing factoids.

 

[Goro]

Not true for my students. This line of thought is now a myth. Prospects will get even better with the AOA/ACGME merger. But get get into medical school first before worrying about specialties.


I remember reading about how it can be more difficult for DOs to get into surgical specialities,

Definitely not for my students! One of my all time worst students went into anesthesiology. He's probably killing patients in NY right now.

Does being a DO make it more difficult to become an anesthesiologist?

No, other than doing well on COMLEX II or USMLE II (which you'd have to do anyway as an MD student).

Do DOs have to jump through any additional hoops to become anesthesiologists or are anesthesiologist residency programs relatively simple to get into? (by that I Mean no added complications/the same as MDs).

 

[chizledfrmstone]

It's harder as a DO, but by no means is it unreasonably difficult to match anesthesia as a DO. I applied for anesthesia last year. I applied to 60 programs and got around 40 interview invites. I had scores in the 250s and I was interviewing with USMDs with scores in the 230s.

What a BEAST.

I would like to believe this is an actual reenactment of how cliquesh interviewed:

 

[Sublimazing]

Not true for my students. This line of thought is now a myth. Prospects will get even better with the AOA/ACGME merger. But get get into medical school first before worrying about specialties.


I remember reading about how it can be more difficult for DOs to get into surgical specialities,

Definitely not for my students! One of my all time worst students went into anesthesiology. He's probably killing patients in NY right now.

Does being a DO make it more difficult to become an anesthesiologist?

No, other than doing well on COMLEX II or USMLE II (which you'd have to do anyway as an MD student).

Do DOs have to jump through any additional hoops to become anesthesiologists or are anesthesiologist residency programs relatively simple to get into? (by that I Mean no added complications/the same as MDs).

Just as a curious outsider, doesn't this contradict what cliquesh just said? He scored in the 250s and only got interviews at 60% of the places he applied to...and if the MD applicants were showing up with 230s then these weren't all elite programs he was attempting

When an MD posts on the anesthesia forum that they got a 250 generally they are told that with an okay personality they can go anywhere they want...yet according to cliquesh that-doesn't seem true for the same for a DO

I rotate through a DO anesthesia program and an MD one...the MD one has only had one DO in the 6 years I have seen, when I asked why i was told it would have to be pretty special circumstance for them to take a DO applicant, and this isn't an upper echelon anesthesia program...so given my limited knowledge i am just wondering how you can say that the applicants have an equal chance?

 

[Goro]

I can't argue with an n=1. All I can say is that every year, about 4-5 of my grads go into the field. Keep in mind that many DOs self-select for primary care, not specialties.

Just as a curious outsider, doesn't this contradict what cliquesh just said? He scored in the 250s and only got interviews at 60% of the places he applied to...and if the MD applicants were showing up with 230s then these weren't all elite programs he was attempting

When an MD posts on the anesthesia forum that they got a 250 generally they are told that with an okay personality they can go anywhere they want...yet according to cliquesh that-doesn't seem true for the same for a DO

I rotate through a DO anesthesia program and an MD one...the MD one has only had one DO in the 6 years I have seen, when I asked why i was told it would have to be pretty special circumstance for them to take a DO applicant, and this isn't an upper echelon anesthesia program...so given my limited knowledge i am just wondering how you can say that the applicants have an equal chance?

 

[cabinbuilder]

Just as a curious outsider, doesn't this contradict what cliquesh just said? He scored in the 250s and only got interviews at 60% of the places he applied to...and if the MD applicants were showing up with 230s then these weren't all elite programs he was attempting

When an MD posts on the anesthesia forum that they got a 250 generally they are told that with an okay personality they can go anywhere they want...yet according to cliquesh that-doesn't seem true for the same for a DO

I rotate through a DO anesthesia program and an MD one...the MD one has only had one DO in the 6 years I have seen, when I asked why i was told it would have to be pretty special circumstance for them to take a DO applicant, and this isn't an upper echelon anesthesia program...so given my limited knowledge i am just wondering how you can say that the applicants have an equal chance?

All depends on what program you apply to. Not every program will accept an DO but there are more that will than won't. Residency applications are just like medical school. You have to apply broadly, smartly, and interview well. What get's me is that there is this idea that every DO wants to go into a specialty and this is simply not the case.

 

[Seth Joo]

Anesthesiology is doable as a DO, I think the hardest fields for DOs tend to be ENT, Opthalmology, Dermatology, but these fields are tough for MDs as well. I think matching into MD residencies in those areas can be very tough.

Most DOs that I know who get into ENT and Derm residencies usually go to AOA programs.

 

[abolt18]

It's sooooooooooo easy... you can basically consider your acceptance to med school a one way ticket to anesthesia.

 

[mrh125]

anesthesiology is becoming less competitive due to CRNA and reimbursement concerns. Some of the docs in that forum are even recommending students avoid it all together

Could you tell me more about this? I was talking to a doctor about how much the CRNAs are going to do, but working with them is like working with residents and there always needs to be a doctor there. will crnas really ruin anesthesiology as a field for future drs or make it that less appealing? If there always needs to be a dr anesthesiologist i'm hoping that's enough to keep things the way they are.

 

[cliquesh]

There will always be anesthesiologists. Don't worry.

 

[joeDO2]

..... but there will be less and their job will be different

 

[cabinbuilder]

Anesthesiology is doable as a DO, I think the hardest fields for DOs tend to be ENT, Opthalmology, Dermatology, but these fields are tough for MDs as well. I think matching into MD residencies in those areas can be very tough.

Most DOs that I know who get into ENT and Derm residencies usually go to AOA programs.

There is NOTHING wrong with doing an AOA residency.

 

[user3]

Could you tell me more about this? I was talking to a doctor about how much the CRNAs are going to do, but working with them is like working with residents and there always needs to be a doctor there. will crnas really ruin anesthesiology as a field for future drs or make it that less appealing? If there always needs to be a dr anesthesiologist i'm hoping that's enough to keep things the way they are.

Just look at some of the threads in the anes forum. A big trend seems to be graduating residents taking employed jobs, which offer significantly less earning potential than PP. New offers for employed jobs are apparently taking a downward trend too. Also, if CMS single payer system is eventually adopted, anes will be one of the worst specialties affected.

 

[mrh125]

Just look at some of the threads in the anes forum. A big trend seems to be graduating residents taking employed jobs, which offer significantly less earning potential than PP. New offers for employed jobs are apparently taking a downward trend too. Also, if CMS single payer system is eventually adopted, anes will be one of the worst specialties affected.

Thanks for your response, could you tell me a little bit more about the CMS single payer system and what the chances of it being adopted may be? I'm going to do some reading up on it, but this is very good info you're giving me 🙂.

 

[user3]

Thanks for your response, could you tell me a little bit more about the CMS single payer system and what the chances of it being adopted may be? I'm going to do some reading up on it, but this is very good info you're giving me 🙂.

I'm pretty much just repeating what I've seen posted in that forum. I would go there for more info

 

[gasman2014]

D.O. student graduating in May, accepted into my #1 allo anesthesiology. Top 25% of my med school class, only took COMLEX, killed audition rotations. It's doable. Just focus and work hard.

Disclaimer: just how it worked out for me, I understand it may not be applicable across the board.

 

[John Doughnut]

D.O. student graduating in May, accepted into my #1 allo anesthesiology. Top 25% of my med school class, only took COMLEX, killed audition rotations. It's doable. Just focus and work hard.

Disclaimer: just how it worked out for me, I understand it may not be applicable across the board.