how do i climb the medical corporate ladder as a physician?

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dr.0ne

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hello all,

current m1 here trying to decide if i want to run for senate elections but not sure that it'd be a wise idea with year 2 and step studying.

for financial reasons and a genuine interest, i don't see myself doing a full time practice my entire life. i'd like to at some point work towards being on administrative staff for a hospital or medical institution. are there certain opportunities like holding sensate positions in med school that might make this more of a reach for me?? or am i thinking too far ahead here?

if i am thinking too far ahead, how does one make the jump from clinic to administration/leadership.

thanks!!

time sensitive post, so quick replies would be helpful.

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Get an MBA or other "administrative" degree.
Most MD's could probably fall into a healthcare exec position since it will be a paycut for them. Working up the chain at least at my hospital is about connections, perception, and politics.
 
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Get an MBA or other "administrative" degree.

there's only a handful of administrators at any school that have mbas. most have MDs only.

Most MD's could probably fall into a healthcare exec position since it will be a paycut for them. Working up the chain at least at my hospital is about connections, perception, and politics.

the dark side is calling me
 
the dark side is calling me
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hello all,....
if i am thinking too far ahead, how does one make the jump from clinic to administration/leadership.
thanks!!

Consider an Executive MBA Program if your school won't allow you to do the MD-MBA Program that they might offer. Mine allowed me to start the MBA after doing my preclinical years, and am grateful I did. I have 11 years in the medical industry side, and 9 years in the clinical field (clinical perfusion). Already I am being consulted by physicians in the hospital who are frustrated with dealing with the admins. Some in the community want me to help them as a consultant to manage their practice - make money. Most physicians can't compete with the current medical business landscape. Their problem is that they want to out-maneuver the MBA/CPA types which is the wrong strategy. The MBA/CPAs are running the show, and the Attendings haven't gotten to used to it, hence their misery / 50+% burnout.

Arm yourself with an MBA, and you'll be calling the shots.Physicians will admire you for it because you are able to speak the language to the CEOs running the health system while at the same time being a physician . For now Physicians are very low on the pecking order, and they hate it. Better to join your bosses than fight them

Good thread you created. Kudos for having vision.
 
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Consider an Executive MBA Program if your school won't allow you to do the MD-MBA Program that they might offer. Mine allowed me to start the MBA after doing my preclinical years, and am grateful I did. I have 11 years in the medical industry side, and 9 years in the clinical field (clinical perfusion). Already I am being consulted by physicians in the hospital who are frustrated with dealing with the admins. Some in the community want me to help them as a consultant to manage their practice - make money. Most physicians can't compete with the current medical business landscape. Their problem is that they want to out-maneuver the MBA/CPA types which is the wrong strategy. The MBA/CPAs are running the show, and the Attendings haven't gotten to used to it, hence their misery / 50+% burnout.

Arm yourself with an MBA, and you'll be calling the shots.Physicians will admire you for it because you are able to speak the language to the CEOs running the health system while at the same time being a physician . For now Physicians are very low on the pecking order, and they hate it. Better to join your bosses than fight them

Good thread you created. Kudos for having vision.

Thank you for your response. That's great to hear you've had success in this line of work. Do you have numbers as to how much physicians-administrators can make when armed with with an MD/MBA degrees or positioned such as yourself in consultancy. Thanks again, Doc.
 
hello all,

current m1 here trying to decide if i want to run for senate elections but not sure that it'd be a wise idea with year 2 and step studying.

for financial reasons and a genuine interest, i don't see myself doing a full time practice my entire life. i'd like to at some point work towards being on administrative staff for a hospital or medical institution. are there certain opportunities like holding sensate positions in med school that might make this more of a reach for me?? or am i thinking too far ahead here?

if i am thinking too far ahead, how does one make the jump from clinic to administration/leadership.

thanks!!

time sensitive post, so quick replies would be helpful.

Lack of gag reflex is the #1 criteria.
 
You do not need an MBA to go into administration. If that is your goal, you absolutely do not need one and its doubtful it will play any importance in allowing you to climb the corporate ladder. Who and what you know will be the important deciders.

A totally separate point -- a meaningful MBA is earned with prior business experience, not as a precursor to it. (You don't mention having any relevant business experience). Here is an old quote from Law2Doc on this specific issue:

[...] You use the MBA to hone EXISTING business skills, not originate them. As such, most business schools require prior work experience (waived for dual degree programs but perhaps shouldn't be). [...] This is because the MBA is not a professional degree, and so unlike medicine, law, nursing, the goal is not to teach you how to do any particular career or run a particular type of business.
And no, the pay for an MD/MBA is not always going to be greater. There will always be jobs one could get with either one of those degrees that are greater than administrative or consulting type jobs one usually gets with the combo. [...]
 
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hello all,

current m1 here trying to decide if i want to run for senate elections but not sure that it'd be a wise idea with year 2 and step studying.

for financial reasons and a genuine interest, i don't see myself doing a full time practice my entire life. i'd like to at some point work towards being on administrative staff for a hospital or medical institution. are there certain opportunities like holding sensate positions in med school that might make this more of a reach for me?? or am i thinking too far ahead here?

if i am thinking too far ahead, how does one make the jump from clinic to administration/leadership.

thanks!!

time sensitive post, so quick replies would be helpful.


Develop your knowledge of issues pertaining to a field you desire and skills as opposed to chasing positions and titles. Any monkey can be on Student Senate and while I respect many members on mine, the job consists of participating in a giant circle jerk...and you're right, it will take time from YR/STEP. If you really want to position yourself to have a position in administration, take responsibility in learning how things like hospital billing, medicare, medicaid, etc (not sure on all of this) work. Also, if you're more of an introvert, take classes on public speaking and develop soft-skills. Also, just to make it clear I have no experience in this area but just based off the number of MBA programs out there and all the ones you hear about on the radio, I can only imagine developing aforementioned skills is more important than the formality of getting an MBA degree.
 
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Thank you for your response. That's great to hear you've had success in this line of work. Do you have numbers as to how much physicians-administrators can make when armed with with an MD/MBA degrees or positioned such as yourself in consultancy. Thanks again, Doc.

I'm not a "Doc"....yet.

As to numbers, those depend on you.

I have found that the best way to address the malaise of physicians today is by referencing Spencer Johnson, MD, best selling book, "Who Moved My Cheese?" Essentially, the medical career landscape has changed drastically since the 1970s. The "cheese" has moved but physicians are still acting like the cheese should come to them. Life doesn't work that way, even rats know that.

Physicians have, in my opinion, the best academic/graduate degree possible in the world: the MD. Yet most today insist that there is only one thing they can do with their training: see patients, submit bills to 3rd party payers, get reimbursed a fraction of fees submitted, and accept their predicament. For being educated professionals, they have settled for a really poor ROI (return on investment) and crappy quality of life.

With an MD you can do dozens of things, all very diverse. Being a fee for service physician is just one career option. Dr. Spencer Johnson obviously chose his path and did quite well. Likewise with Dr Mehmet Oz, MD, MBA (TV personality, cardiothoracic surgeon), and Dr Michael Crichton, MD
who never did a Residency Program, never earned a medical license, and never practiced medicine), and so forth.

You stated you're a first year MD student and you are exploring your options. Good for you. However, an MBA is a very general professional degree where you sample different facets of running a business. If it is your intention to work for a health system, then an MBA may not be in your best interest. If you want to be an entrepreneur like me, start clinics, manage medical groups, be a consultant, work in industry, start a biotech/pharma company, etc then an MBA would be a good degree. However, as others have stated, you would learn more by actually working in the medical business field than by earning an MBA. I flew through my MBA Program and graduated with a 3.9/4.0. It was an easy process for me but that was the case because I already have many years on the job experience in the medical industry at a well paying salaried position. For me the MBA was strictly for my CV even if I did learn quite a bit of new knowledge in the MBA. Few physicians earn an MBA Degree, but when they do, they are in much more powerful positions because medicine today, as we all know, is a business. Physicians today in the health field are pretty much powerless.

You first have to decide what you want to do with your MD Degree. Then go from there. Know this, though. Physicians are miserable today because they are not in the driver's seat of their profession as their predecessors were. People with non-medical degrees dictate to MD what they are to do, how they are to do it, when, where, etc. Adding insult to bruised egos, they are also submitted to patient surveys and those are deadly. Physicians are earning less money with each passing year, while those who dictate to them are making more income.

I think going to medical school to work for a "health system" is certifiable nuts. But to each her own.

By the way, physicians in medical schools are leaving in droves, especially on the admin side. At my medical school, we've had a huge turnover with faculty and admins. Meanwhile, medical schools aren't teaching medical students what awaits them post MD school.

Happy trails
 
I'm not a "Doc"....yet.

As to numbers, those depend on you.

I have found that the best way to address the malaise of physicians today is by referencing Spencer Johnson, MD, best selling book, "Who Moved My Cheese?" Essentially, the medical career landscape has changed drastically since the 1970s. The "cheese" has moved but physicians are still acting like the cheese should come to them. Life doesn't work that way, even rats know that.

Physicians have, in my opinion, the best academic/graduate degree possible in the world: the MD. Yet most today insist that there is only one thing they can do with their training: see patients, submit bills to 3rd party payers, get reimbursed a fraction of fees submitted, and accept their predicament. For being educated professionals, they have settled for a really poor ROI (return on investment) and crappy quality of life.

With an MD you can do dozens of things, all very diverse. Being a fee for service physician is just one career option. Dr. Spencer Johnson obviously chose his path and did quite well. Likewise with Dr Mehmet Oz, MD, MBA (TV personality, cardiothoracic surgeon), and Dr Michael Crichton, MD
who never did a Residency Program, never earned a medical license, and never practiced medicine), and so forth.

You stated you're a first year MD student and you are exploring your options. Good for you. However, an MBA is a very general professional degree where you sample different facets of running a business. If it is your intention to work for a health system, then an MBA may not be in your best interest. If you want to be an entrepreneur like me, start clinics, manage medical groups, be a consultant, work in industry, start a biotech/pharma company, etc then an MBA would be a good degree. However, as others have stated, you would learn more by actually working in the medical business field than by earning an MBA. I flew through my MBA Program and graduated with a 3.9/4.0. It was an easy process for me but that was the case because I already have many years on the job experience in the medical industry at a well paying salaried position. For me the MBA was strictly for my CV even if I did learn quite a bit of new knowledge in the MBA. Few physicians earn an MBA Degree, but when they do, they are in much more powerful positions because medicine today, as we all know, is a business. Physicians today in the health field are pretty much powerless.

You first have to decide what you want to do with your MD Degree. Then go from there. Know this, though. Physicians are miserable today because they are not in the driver's seat of their profession as their predecessors were. People with non-medical degrees dictate to MD what they are to do, how they are to do it, when, where, etc. Adding insult to bruised egos, they are also submitted to patient surveys and those are deadly. Physicians are earning less money with each passing year, while those who dictate to them are making more income.

I think going to medical school to work for a "health system" is certifiable nuts. But to each her own.

By the way, physicians in medical schools are leaving in droves, especially on the admin side. At my medical school, we've had a huge turnover with faculty and admins. Meanwhile, medical schools aren't teaching medical students what awaits them post MD school.

Happy trails

Wait, you mentioned that you haven't even earned your MD/DO, yet in a fourth paragraph you call yourself an entrepreneur who "starts clinics, manages medical groups, does consulting"? At what precise point have you done any of that and how exactly did MBA help you? You admit that it is just a line on your CV, which is exactly the WRONG reason to get it, especially if you go to med school that doesn't have a top 10 business school.

Look, if the MBA you got is making you happy and feel like some grandiose entrepreneur - great. It is your time, money, and opportunity cost. But, please, don't go around giving people advice that is just not correct and is based on assumptions that are false (physicians with MBA = more powerful positions, because.... medicine = business!??).


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Wait, you mentioned that you haven't even earned your MD/DO, yet in a fourth paragraph you call yourself an entrepreneur who "starts clinics, manages medical groups, does consulting"?

Read my post again. I wrote: " If you want to be an entrepreneur like me, start clinics, manage medical groups, be a consultant, work in industry, start a biotech/pharma company, etc then an MBA would be a good degree."

I would like to start clinics. I never stated I have started clinics. My career goal is to be an entrepreneur who has the option to starts clinics, or manage medical groups, or be a consultant, or work in industry, etc. I am an MD student who just completed an MBA, and came from industry prior to returning to school. Follow the threads

Are you related to Dr Anjali Ramkissoon, pulling an Uber move?

I just noticed you're not even disclosing your professional/academic history / accomplishments.

Typical.

Next!
 
Read my post again. I wrote: " If you want to be an entrepreneur like me, start clinics, manage medical groups, be a consultant, work in industry, start a biotech/pharma company, etc then an MBA would be a good degree."

I would like to start clinics. I never stated I have started clinics. My career goal is to be an entrepreneur who has the option to starts clinics, or manage medical groups, or be a consultant, or work in industry, etc. I am an MD student who just completed an MBA, and came from industry prior to returning to school. Follow the threads

Are you related to Dr Anjali Ramkissoon, pulling an Uber move?

Relax. go interact with your girlfriend/boyfriend, friends or pets.

Your advice was not sound and needed to be placed in context. Now that you mentioned your experience (or lack of) with using that MBA you have just earned, I can happily go back to other things.


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When did being a physician mean having a crappy lifestyle and an MD have a low ROI? What other degree virtually guarantees at least $200K remuneration annually? What is so crappy about a U.S. physician's lifestyle?
 
You do not need an MBA to go into administration. If that is your goal, you absolutely do not need one and its doubtful it will play any importance in allowing you to climb the corporate ladder. Who and what you know will be the important deciders.

And a meaningful MBA is earned with prior business experience, not as a precursor to it. Here is an old quote from Law2Doc on the subject:
I don't know if you read this or not but he's saying that an MBA is NOT useful if you want to run your own practice someday. OP never said he wants to run his own practice. On the other hand, he said it is useful aid you want to go into ADMINISTRATION someday. Were you confused? I'm confused.
 
Most MD's could probably fall into a healthcare exec position since it will be a paycut for them. Working up the chain at least at my hospital is about connections, perception, and politics.

Really? i'm not sure about that. One of our local CEOs, who is a nurse, makes over $900,000 a year. Public record so easy to check these things at many places. I'm not sure that would be a pay cut for most people.
 
Really? i'm not sure about that. One of our local CEOs, who is a nurse, makes over $900,000 a year. Public record so easy to check these things at many places. I'm not sure that would be a pay cut for most people.
Most of the hospital admin jobs that lead to those exec jobs are pay cuts for doctors. At least in my 350 bed hospital VP positions pay 200-300K. CEO makes about 500K. That being said the Local CEO you are talking about probably worked some of the lower level jobs in the 100k-200K range for years before getting a promotion to CEO. No one is going and picking a staff nurse and promoting her to CEO over night. I see very few physicians in Admin jobs that are fast track to CEO and plenty of nurses in these positions because they are "clinical" know something about hospital operations and the pay is a net increase compared to what floor nurses make.

There are too many RN's in admin jobs and not enough MDs the only rational reason I can think of for this is due to the pay differential between an MD actually treating patients vs admin
 
I was looking at some "medical director" job listings on this note and they said they wanted:
1. MD/DO
2. MBA (preferred)
3. 5 years of practice experience (pure clinical)
4. previous medical director experience

It seems like you could get away with skipping MBA and do the same thing. It does seem like (in this ONE facet of admin that I looked up) that you need experience and people skills to land the first job on the dark side.

I am not at all convinced that a leadership position in med school will help with this goal of yours.
 
I was looking at some "medical director" job listings on this note and they said they wanted:
1. MD/DO
2. MBA (preferred)
3. 5 years of practice experience (pure clinical)
4. previous medical director experience

It seems like you could get away with skipping MBA and do the same thing. It does seem like (in this ONE facet of admin that I looked up) that you need experience and people skills to land the first job on the dark side.

I am not at all convinced that a leadership position in med school will help with this goal of yours.
Look up the profiles of any MD execs very few of them have MBA's. It may help you feel more competent in MBA functions, but almost all of the stuff you need can be learned on the job. Medical directors only do part time admin work and is generally not the fast track to exec positions since these directors generally keep the other MDs in their department in line and take on quality responsibilities in addition to their own patient care responsibilities.
 
One of our local CEOs, who is a nurse, makes over $900,000 a year. Public record so easy to check these things at many places. I'm not sure that would be a pay cut for most people.

This is an excellent habit to acquire for aspiring physicians: research the salaries of your physician colleagues, especially if they/you work in the public sector.

If you attend a state university medical school, you can view online the salaries of the physician department heads, physician admins, and CEOs - all are public record. The physicians/faculty at our medical school who have lofty titles (e.g. Assoc Dean of Student Services, etc) make peanuts (~/< $200K ). The CEO at the "health system" aligned to our medical school is the highest paid state employee. Total compensation ~ $900K. Oh, he's only in his 40s and his advanced degree is not in anything science related. He is one slick man. Dresses the part well, hair greased back, teeth pearly white and is always flashing that million dollar smile.

the Attendings ? not so much

You shouldn't be getting an MD Degree to make money. MD/MBA with professional background? You can rule the world...well, almost
 
You do not need an MBA to go into administration. If that is your goal, you absolutely do not need one and its doubtful it will play any importance in allowing you to climb the corporate ladder. Who and what you know will be the important deciders.

A totally separate point -- a meaningful MBA is earned with prior business experience, not as a precursor to it. (You don't mention having any relevant business experience). Here is an old quote from Law2Doc on this specific issue:

I happen to have an MBA and that post of Law2Doc is absolutely stupid. I'll bet he does not have an MBA. At any decent business school you gain lots of practical skills including putting together basic financial statements, capital budgets, supply chain designs, marketing programs etc., etc., etc. These skills would be of great value to anyone seeking a position in healthcare management. However, it may not be necessary to get an MBA to gain the skills the OP seeks. At any decent community college a physician could pick up classes in accounting, statistics, business law, economics and marketing. These classes would not take that much time and would probably be fairly relaxed. Taking these classes would be like having a hobby. The classes would, however, provide a physician with more financial and managerial skills than a typical physician has.
 
I happen to have an MBA and that post of Law2Doc is absolutely stupid.

Johns Hopkins Medicine International Leadership

Of the leaders listed on the JHI leadership team, the following degrees numbered:

M.B.A. = 19
M.D. = 11
M.H.A. = 6
J.D. = 4
M.P.H. = 2
M.D. + M.B.A. = 3

some of the top leaders:

JHI Executive Leadership Team
Pamela D. Paulk, M.B.A., President

JHI Board Members
Christopher W. Kersey, M.D., M.B.A. (Chairman of the Board)


Then there is this: on Dr Kersey's page:

The Johns Hopkins Hospital is the only hospital in history to have earned the number one ranking for 22 years from U.S. News & World Report—an unprecedented 21 years in a row from 1991 to 2011, and again in 2013.


Just saying
 
Johns Hopkins Medicine International Leadership

Of the leaders listed on the JHI leadership team, the following degrees numbered:

M.B.A. = 19
M.D. = 11
M.H.A. = 6
J.D. = 4
M.P.H. = 2
M.D. + M.B.A. = 3

some of the top leaders:

JHI Executive Leadership Team
Pamela D. Paulk, M.B.A., President

JHI Board Members
Christopher W. Kersey, M.D., M.B.A. (Chairman of the Board)


Then there is this: on Dr Kersey's page:

The Johns Hopkins Hospital is the only hospital in history to have earned the number one ranking for 22 years from U.S. News & World Report—an unprecedented 21 years in a row from 1991 to 2011, and again in 2013.


Just saying


The original question was how does OP climb the corporate ladder. While many of these successful people have MBAs, do we know for sure if obtaining that MBA a major factor in contributing to that success or was it the cherry-on-top many successful people seek out? I don't personally know the answer, it's just my hunch that attaining an MBA wouldn't be the main way to climb the medical corporate ladder.
 
Very easily. The interventional cardio doc I work with was practically begged to work within the administration, since administrators with MD's actually know what's going on on the ground level. He doesn't have any business degree, I believe.
 
Look, if you want to be an admin, do it. But then why be a physician first? Administrators are not physicians' friends, nor do they ever seem to understand our concerns. Most physicians view those who end up in administration as sell-outs or burnouts who couldn't hack it in the trenches. They become more administrator than physician the second they get the position.
 
Look, if you want to be an admin, do it. But then why be a physician first? Administrators are not physicians' friends, nor do they ever seem to understand our concerns. Most physicians view those who end up in administration as sell-outs or burnouts who couldn't hack it in the trenches. They become more administrator than physician the second they get the position.
You must know so much. As a soon-to-be MD/MBA student I would not refer to myself as a "sell out". I would rather refer to myself as a future advocate for physicians wherever I may end up someday. Unless you haven't realized medicine is a business and most physicians are shocked by this reality at some point or another. Business has much to do with the way physicians operate and in the making of decisions in the day to day so, personally, I think most physicians would be thrilled having someone in their hospitals administration that understands what physicians go through everyday, advocating for them and hopefully making their life a bit easier. Wouldn't you?
 
You must know so much. As a soon-to-be MD/MBA student I would not refer to myself as a "sell out". I would rather refer to myself as a future advocate for physicians wherever I may end up someday. Unless you haven't realized medicine is a business and most physicians are shocked by this reality at some point or another. Business has much to do with the way physicians operate and in the making of decisions in the day to day so, personally, I think most physicians would be thrilled of having a business savvy physician in their hospitals administration advocating for them and hopefully making their life easier. Wouldn't you?

We would be thrilled if that's actually what happened. But that's not the reality and you are being idealistic. Most of the time "business decisions" translate to more work for us, inferior products, and less flexibility in providing patient care. And we don't get paid for the extra work.
 
You must know so much. As a soon-to-be MD/MBA student I would not refer to myself as a "sell out". I would rather refer to myself as a future advocate for physicians wherever I may end up someday. Unless you haven't realized medicine is a business and most physicians are shocked by this reality at some point or another. Business has much to do with the way physicians operate and in the making of decisions in the day to day so, personally, I think most physicians would be thrilled having someone in their hospitals administration that understands what physicians go through everyday, advocating for them and hopefully making their life a bit easier. Wouldn't you?

Rofl
Whos the naive one? Lmao
 
You should look into what your student senate actually does. Some are more powerful than others. I'm the student body president at my school (for the whole university); but mine is one of the few that has major influence by having votes on our board of governors and academic senate committees. With this comes many connections that I would have not been able to make otherwise (I don't think I would have gotten into med school without it tbh)

BUT, I have found that the vast majority of student governments are simply a piggy bank for student orgs. If this is he case at your univiersity, it's prob not worth your time.
 
I agree I am naive. I do want to be a physician after all.

That resident will be working for you one day, and will be a cost center.

Baker, L., Bundorf, M., & Kessler, D. (2014). Vertical integration: Hospital ownership of physician practices is associated with higher prices and spending. Health Affairs (Project Hope), 33(5), 756-63. doi:10.1377/hlthaff.2013.1279

Keep having dreams. Life moves on and so should physicians. Evolution is a universal truth.

"When you cease to dream you cease to live"
- Malcolm Forbes
 
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