How do new schools find enough rotation sites?

[MatCauthon]

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Does anyone know?

I'm going into my P4 year and we are currently going through the lottery to pick all of our rotations. The person in charge of experiential education told us that we should be very thankful that none of our rotation sites were charging the school money. She said that our tuition would easily double if that was the case. If these sites aren't charging the school money then why is my P4 tuition the most expensive out of any year? 😡

I've been reading several threads where they say that new schools such as PCOM are offering triple the rate of other nearby schools to secure rotation sites. Is that how all these new schools and diploma mills are getting rotations? I know for a fact that our school has recently lost a couple hospital rotations because a new school that opened up in the state 3 years ago is offering those sites lots of money for guaranteed spots.

Do all these new schools present a serious problem? I've always wondered how everyone at the candidate schools and schools with large class sizes (120+) manages to find decent rotations. I go to an established state school and I've found it to be a very stressful experience trying to plan my P4 year-- not enough sites to go around.

Anyone else have any thoughts?

 

[Sparda29]

Does anyone know?

I'm going into my P4 year and we are currently going through the lottery to pick all of our rotations. The person in charge of experiential education told us that we should be very thankful that none of our rotation sites were charging the school money. She said that our tuition would easily double if that was the case. If these sites aren't charging the school money then why is my P4 tuition the most expensive out of any year? 😡

I've been reading several threads where they say that new schools such as PCOM are offering triple the rate of other nearby schools to secure rotation sites. Is that how all these new schools and diploma mills are getting rotations? I know for a fact that our school has recently lost a couple hospital rotations because a new school that opened up in the state 3 years ago is offering those sites lots of money for guaranteed spots.

Do all these new schools present a serious problem? I've always wondered how everyone at the candidate schools and schools with large class sizes (120+) manages to find decent rotations. I go to an established state school and I've found it to be a very stressful experience trying to plan my P4 year-- not enough sites to go around.

Anyone else have any thoughts?

Well here in NYC, we have St. John's, LIU, and Touro. St. John's generally stays in Queens and Long Island, LIU generally stays in Brooklyn, Queens, Long Island, and Lower Manhattan. And Touro generally stays in Upper Manhattan, the Bronx, Westchester County, and North New Jersey and Queens. So yeah, it's not really a problem in a highly populated city like NYC because there are plenty of sites to go around. Also, Touro has a focus on getting sites in the ghetto.

 

[confettiflyer]

Does anyone know?

I'm going into my P4 year and we are currently going through the lottery to pick all of our rotations. The person in charge of experiential education told us that we should be very thankful that none of our rotation sites were charging the school money. She said that our tuition would easily double if that was the case. If these sites aren't charging the school money then why is my P4 tuition the most expensive out of any year? 😡

I've been reading several threads where they say that new schools such as PCOM are offering triple the rate of other nearby schools to secure rotation sites. Is that how all these new schools and diploma mills are getting rotations? I know for a fact that our school has recently lost a couple hospital rotations because a new school that opened up in the state 3 years ago is offering those sites lots of money for guaranteed spots.

Do all these new schools present a serious problem? I've always wondered how everyone at the candidate schools and schools with large class sizes (120+) manages to find decent rotations. I go to an established state school and I've found it to be a very stressful experience trying to plan my P4 year-- not enough sites to go around.

Anyone else have any thoughts?

Networking...our experiential directors are fairly well networked. Director #1 runs/ran the residency program at the hospital and is a fellow with ASHP, he was able to assist with California rotations as well (we're in PA). That and everyone seems to know him somehow. We've been able to get the gambit from selective places like Children's Hospital to managed care & industry.

Director #2 came to us from USP (oldest pharm school in the country) so a lot of our sites are with USP-affiliated alumni.

We're in an impacted area also (Philadelphia) with a total of 3 schools in the city.

 

[irishspring]

Is this how pharmacy rotations normally work? Either a school secures rotations sites or the pharmacy student finds them on their own?

 

[bacillus1]

Director #2 came to us from USP (oldest pharm school in the country) so a lot of our sites are with USP-affiliated alumni.

Better not be taking our rotations!

 

[All4MyDaughter]

As far as I know, my school isn't paying for rotation sites. Our tuition for rotations is the same as for the classroom years. We have two experiential education coordinators who've been working with rotation sites since before the school opened. Plus our school places faculty members into hospitals, community pharmacies and other organizations to work part time and it costs the facilities nothing. Then those faculty are available to precept our students at the facility. It's all about building relationships and networking.

 

[PharmDstudent]

Does anyone know?

I'm going into my P4 year and we are currently going through the lottery to pick all of our rotations. The person in charge of experiential education told us that we should be very thankful that none of our rotation sites were charging the school money. She said that our tuition would easily double if that was the case. If these sites aren't charging the school money then why is my P4 tuition the most expensive out of any year? 😡

I've been reading several threads where they say that new schools such as PCOM are offering triple the rate of other nearby schools to secure rotation sites. Is that how all these new schools and diploma mills are getting rotations? I know for a fact that our school has recently lost a couple hospital rotations because a new school that opened up in the state 3 years ago is offering those sites lots of money for guaranteed spots.

Do all these new schools present a serious problem? I've always wondered how everyone at the candidate schools and schools with large class sizes (120+) manages to find decent rotations. I go to an established state school and I've found it to be a very stressful experience trying to plan my P4 year-- not enough sites to go around.

Anyone else have any thoughts?

Do they have any "out of network" rotations available? Anything that was over 90 miles from the school was considered "out of network", and they were less desirable rotations but the same in quality.

And I swear, the greed that's woven through this profession is just about shameful. Higher education is expensive enough in this country already!

 

[owlegrad]

According to the dean, our COP is the only one in our state that does not pay our rotation sites. Pretty awesome. 👍

To answer a question from further up, I believe the vast majority of the time the school sets up the rotation sites for you. Most schools will also allow you to set up your own rotation sites if you have someone who is willing to precept. It is actually pretty good deal for the school if you do setup your own rotation, that's one less rotation site they have to provide you with.

I agree with what others have said about being well networked. If you go to an old established school they are bound to have tons and tons of sites they have accumulated over time.

 

[Aznfarmerboi]

The newer school usually has to pay for rotation sites while old schools rely on their networking and alumnis.

 

[Ackj]

Is this how pharmacy rotations normally work? Either a school secures rotations sites or the pharmacy student finds them on their own?

Not sure what other options there would be.

As far as I know, my school isn't paying for rotation sites. Our tuition for rotations is the same as for the classroom years. We have two experiential education coordinators who've been working with rotation sites since before the school opened. Plus our school places faculty members into hospitals, community pharmacies and other organizations to work part time and it costs the facilities nothing. Then those faculty are available to precept our students at the facility. It's all about building relationships and networking.

Sounds pretty much the same as our school, afaik. If you're not from the area, you're welcome to do a rotation somewhere else though. Since a few students previously did that, we now have some affiliated sites across the country, which is a cool alternative.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Sounds pretty much the same as our school, afaik. If you're not from the area, you're welcome to do a rotation somewhere else though. Since a few students previously did that, we now have some affiliated sites across the country, which is a cool alternative.

We have lots of out of state students as well. We have sites set up in California, Florida and Alaska plus our students can do IHS. Our class was allowed to do 3 "out of area" rotations or 4 if one of them was a "public service" rotation like IHS or military. There may be other out of state sites that people have set up for themselves that I'm not aware of. We also have a special rotation in Australia and one is starting next year in Roatan (Honduras).

 

[spacecowgirl]

According to the dean, our COP is the only one in our state that does not pay our rotation sites. Pretty awesome. 👍

From a preceptor's standpoint, I think that's complete crap.

We've precepted from schools that pay and schools that don't and we're not going to take any more students from schools that don't pay. I know some rotation sites don't put a lot of time or effort into precepting but we put in a ton and should be compensated for it. There is NO reason it should increase anyone's tuition because the amount we get paid is a pittance compared to the # of credit hours the student is paying for - where is the difference going? I have my theories.

Clearly this is a sore spot for me, but I absolutely think sites should be paid by schools. I think it should be a requirement. If the sites aren't up to snuff, the schools need to address that issue but don't penalize all sites.

I put a lot of time and effort into precepting, usually at the expense of other job duties and end up taking work home. I don't personally see any of that $$$ and that's fine but we use it in our dept to pay for education, CEs, memberships - other stuff we might not normally have the budget for. It's too much work for us just to do as a favor.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

I think it would be fine to pay a reasonable stipend to preceptors. Really, I don't get why "we don't pay sites/preceptors for rotations" is a badge of honor. It takes time and effort to precept a student, and students honestly aren't that helpful to the site (unless you are just using them for free tech labor).

 

[spacecowgirl]

I think it would be fine to pay a reasonable stipend to preceptors. Really, I don't get why "we don't pay sites/preceptors for rotations" is a badge of honor. It takes time and effort to precept a student, and students honestly aren't that helpful to the site (unless you are just using them for free tech labor).

I don't get it either. And it's not just me, it's the whole dept that puts in work. I never use them as free labor, tech duties are minimal and only for exposure. Most of the assigments given to them take much longer than it would take for me to do myself, which is certainly understandable, but not that helpful to me.

My BP is up.

 

[confettiflyer]

Better not be taking our rotations!

lol, well so far i'm rotating alongside USP students concurrently, but it's for IPPE not APPE.

I did hear that Children's Hospital is no longer taking you guys, still don't know the situation at our own hospital system, but I would imagine the in-house pharm school gets preference come P4. Do let me know if Jefferson is still on your list of options come spin results time, I'm curious to know.

...though I do hear from every single USP alum i run into that the guy who does your APPE's is a douchewagon. any truth to the rumor?

 

[confettiflyer]

From a preceptor's standpoint, I think that's complete crap.

We've precepted from schools that pay and schools that don't and we're not going to take any more students from schools that don't pay. I know some rotation sites don't put a lot of time or effort into precepting but we put in a ton and should be compensated for it. There is NO reason it should increase anyone's tuition because the amount we get paid is a pittance compared to the # of credit hours the student is paying for - where is the difference going? I have my theories.

Clearly this is a sore spot for me, but I absolutely think sites should be paid by schools. I think it should be a requirement. If the sites aren't up to snuff, the schools need to address that issue but don't penalize all sites.

I put a lot of time and effort into precepting, usually at the expense of other job duties and end up taking work home. I don't personally see any of that $$$ and that's fine but we use it in our dept to pay for education, CEs, memberships - other stuff we might not normally have the budget for. It's too much work for us just to do as a favor.

I agree here, rotating students aren't exactly free labor. Just curious, what's the going rate for compensation for precepting an inpatient student? I've always wondered this.

 

[bacillus1]

lol, well so far i'm rotating alongside USP students concurrently, but it's for IPPE not APPE.

I did hear that Children's Hospital is no longer taking you guys, still don't know the situation at our own hospital system, but I would imagine the in-house pharm school gets preference come P4. Do let me know if Jefferson is still on your list of options come spin results time, I'm curious to know.

...though I do hear from every single USP alum i run into that the guy who does your APPE's is a douchewagon. any truth to the rumor?

Eh, from the encounters I've had with him, he seems nice enough, but I guess we'll see when I get my rotation schedule. The one big problem I see with our rotations is that we can't take off a rotation during residency interview time unless we find an out-of-network rotation. No clue how I'm gonna pull off interviewing during rotations. People do it, but I hear it's really hard to schedule, and I really wouldn't be able to do more than 5 interviews with such a schedule (I guess more aren't necessary anyway).

 

[IndustryPharmD]

My school did not pay preceptors... and our tuition for P-4 year was either 3/4 or 2/3 of what it was for P-1 through P-3 (of course, offset by tuition increases somewhat, but still). Most sites were alumni, and many out-of-town ones offered free housing to boot, just out of goodness of their hearts. 👍

As far as whether paying preceptors is OK or not... I am ambivalent about it. If/when I can set up a site at work, I would gladly precept any student from my alma mater willing to come all the way out here for free, one or two a year. And I would even subsidize their housing expense just because I want to provide an opportunity to experience something completely different. And pay it forward since I can't pay it back to all the wonderful people who went out of the way to help me. Of course, it would not be a random selection but a mini-application based process. That's how a few of the really out of the way/off the wall/special interest rotations were distributed when I was in school. Preceptors wanted to have their pick of who they get to take on for a month. 🙂

On the other hand, there is no way in Hell I would agree to precept more than one or two students a year for free. And I would not agree to precept students from other schools for free. Precepting takes a lot of time both before and during the student being there, and a lot of effort and pushing and shoving. I am only willing to do it uncompensated for the people I really like and want to precept. 🙂 And as far as rotation students being free labor... it would take a lot more than a few weeks for a student to become useful to me, let alone proficient at any part of what I do.

 

[spacecowgirl]

I agree here, rotating students aren't exactly free labor. Just curious, what's the going rate for compensation for precepting an inpatient student? I've always wondered this.

About $2.50 an hour when you break it down that way 😉

 

[owlegrad]

I think it would be fine to pay a reasonable stipend to preceptors. Really, I don't get why "we don't pay sites/preceptors for rotations" is a badge of honor. It takes time and effort to precept a student, and students honestly aren't that helpful to the site (unless you are just using them for free tech labor).

I can only speak for myself, and I certainly don't want to offend any preceptors here, but I do like that my school doesn't have to pay for rotation sites. I think it shows we have a strong alumni network that is willing to go out of their way to help educate students - the future of the profession. I also like that they do it out of the goodness of their hearts - perhaps we get higher quality sites because our sites are not motivated by compensation (pure conjecture of course, I haven't even started rotations).

The point that preceptor sites deserve compensation is an interesting one. Perhaps they do, but I like to think that not getting compensated shows how committed they are to precepting. Especially when you consider that they do get paid for every other student - I think it shows they prefer UF students (why else would they take us?).

 

[Its Z]

As a pharmacist, it is a professional obligation to precept pharmacy students and teach them something worthwhile. It's the right thing to do. But I also feel ambivalent about for profit institutions we so call diploma mills who recenltly opened trying to use sites to sell their PharmD. I hate their students are penalized for this because it is those schools who are probably having to pay for rotation sites and then passing on the cost to students.

Especially in saturated markets like Chicago, I would hate to participate in education process for those institutions and perpetuate and worsen saturation. So instead of asking for payment, I would simply decline to precept those students from diploma mills but continue taking students from "Legacy" schools.

Rotating students should never be a source of free labor. Also, many pharmacists don't have time to dick around with students either. Rotations should be regimented with an established syllabus with goals, objectives, and learning outcomes that can ultimately teach students and bridge the gap between didactic material from school with hands on practical approach to pharmacy practice.

 

[spacecowgirl]

I can only speak for myself, and I certainly don't want to offend any preceptors here, but I do like that my school doesn't have to pay for rotation sites. I think it shows we have a strong alumni network that is willing to go out of their way to help educate students - the future of the profession. I also like that they do it out of the goodness of their hearts - perhaps we get higher quality sites because our sites are not motivated by compensation (pure conjecture of course, I haven't even started rotations).

The point that preceptor sites deserve compensation is an interesting one. Perhaps they do, but I like to think that not getting compensated shows how committed they are to precepting. Especially when you consider that they do get paid for every other student - I think it shows they prefer UF students (why else would they take us?).

I live in an area that is nowhere near my alma mater. So that point is moot for me.

Compensation and quality/commitment are not mutually exclusive and it's insulting to suggest that. I would not take on a teaching position for several hours a day without compensation. It's not greed, it's business. We have to demonstrate that we are appropriately staffed; if we keep adding responsibilities without any compensation, it looks like we don't need all the staff we have. I only have so many hours in a day to finish what I need to do and precepting is another demand on my time, and the time of everyone in my dept.

I just don't believe that paying sites would inherently attract sub-standard experiences. It's equally possible new sites would consider precepting knowing they would at least get some compensation for their time.

 

[owlegrad]

...
Compensation and quality/commitment are not mutually exclusive and it's insulting to suggest that....

I just don't believe that paying sites would inherently attract sub-standard experiences. It's equally possible new sites would consider precepting knowing they would at least get some compensation for their time.

I had hoped that it was clear that I was not suggesting that at all. I only meant that because our preceptors do not get compensated for their time, they must do it out of a sense of obligation to the profession or because of their ties to the school. I would think that on the whole we probably get better preceptors because of this, I didn't mean that preceptors who are compensated are automatically worse preceptors. I didn't mean that money automatically means worse experiences or less quality or anything else like that.

I also did not mean to imply that wanting compensation for your time is greedy or bad (it's the American way, no?), but it is nice to know that our preceptors are definitely not in it for the money, but rather to help us learn.

Edit: Would we get new sites if we paid them? Probably, but I guess we don't need to.

 

[Ackj]

Of course, it would not be a random selection but a mini-application based process. That's how a few of the really out of the way/off the wall/special interest rotations were distributed when I was in school. Preceptors wanted to have their pick of who they get to take on for a month.

Our P3 students have an "elective night" where they meet a bunch of potential preceptors and then rank the sites they're interested in, while the preceptors rank the students they liked as well. Sort of like a smaller version of the midyear residency thing I suppose. I definitely would not want some random student who may or may not have any interest or applicable knowledge to be dragging around for several weeks.

 

[Sparda29]

As a pharmacist, it is a professional obligation to precept pharmacy students and teach them something worthwhile. It's the right thing to do. But I also feel ambivalent about for profit institutions we so call diploma mills who recenltly opened trying to use sites to sell their PharmD. I hate their students are penalized for this because it is those schools who are probably having to pay for rotation sites and then passing on the cost to students.

Especially in saturated markets like Chicago, I would hate to participate in education process for those institutions and perpetuate and worsen saturation. So instead of asking for payment, I would simply decline to precept those students from diploma mills but continue taking students from "Legacy" schools.

Rotating students should never be a source of free labor. Also, many pharmacists don't have time to dick around with students either. Rotations should be regimented with an established syllabus with goals, objectives, and learning outcomes that can ultimately teach students and bridge the gap between didactic material from school with hands on practical approach to pharmacy practice.

Yes, except I think when the preceptor gives you projects and there are other projects in the syllabus, you should be able to just do the projects from your preceptor and ignore the ones in the syllabus. (I am sick of these ****ing journal clubs.)

 

[confettiflyer]

Eh, from the encounters I've had with him, he seems nice enough, but I guess we'll see when I get my rotation schedule. The one big problem I see with our rotations is that we can't take off a rotation during residency interview time unless we find an out-of-network rotation. No clue how I'm gonna pull off interviewing during rotations. People do it, but I hear it's really hard to schedule, and I really wouldn't be able to do more than 5 interviews with such a schedule (I guess more aren't necessary anyway).

I don't know if this is standard for all schools, but we get a week off in February (class-wide) to conduct job/residency interviews. Sortof our "spring break" but in the middle of winter and in-line with the residency interview/match process.

We can request the block during residency interviews off, but obviously due to availability issues, not everyone will get it. I've talked to most of my classmates and they all want different times of the year off for different reasons (weddings in the summer, requesting final block off so they can just move home early, etc...)

And to not really contribute to the ongoing conversation about precepting...my hope is to precept students from my old school without necessarily being compensated for it (depending on what I'm doing). I think staffing at a hospital is different vs. other areas that can absorb a student with less impact. Coming from a school that has been name called a "diploma mill" or "USP part 2," (funny as the two are diametrically opposed, but i digress...) it'll be in my vested interest to precept and add value to my own degree years down the road. Most of my classmates understand this...it's the chip on our shoulder.

 

[Sparda29]

I don't know if this is standard for all schools, but we get a week off in February (class-wide) to conduct job/residency interviews. Sortof our "spring break" but in the middle of winter and in-line with the residency interview/match process.

We can request the block during residency interviews off, but obviously due to availability issues, not everyone will get it. I've talked to most of my classmates and they all want different times of the year off for different reasons (weddings in the summer, requesting final block off so they can just move home early, etc...)

And to not really contribute to the ongoing conversation about precepting...my hope is to precept students from my old school without necessarily being compensated for it (depending on what I'm doing). I think staffing at a hospital is different vs. other areas that can absorb a student with less impact. Coming from a school that has been name called a "diploma mill" or "USP part 2," (funny as the two are diametrically opposed, but i digress...) it'll be in my vested interest to precept and add value to my own degree years down the road. Most of my classmates understand this...it's the chip on our shoulder.

I guess the current system is designed for when you all you needed was a degree and a license and a pulse.

 

[confettiflyer]

I guess the current system is designed for when you all you needed was a degree and a license and a pulse.

god i remember this quote...man, those were the good ol' days of pharmacy.

i also remember "if you want a residency, pshaw...don't worry you'll get one!"

 

[Sparda29]

god i remember this quote...man, those were the good ol' days of pharmacy.

i also remember "if you want a residency, pshaw...don't worry you'll get one!"

My boss @ CVS when I started working there (2006): "When you graduate, you'll be able to name your price. You'll probably start at $150K."

District Trainer @ CVS when I was starting (2006), referring to this 6th year that was in his office: "This guy is gonna graduate this year, he's getting a $30K sign on bonus, starting at $58/hour, and we're sending him on an all expense paid trip to Disney World."

I've also heard that the influx of students into pharmacy schools is gonna go down once they change it to a 7 year minimum program for pharmacy. Being that there is a shortage of doctors, I guess they are thinking.

"Make pharmacy 7 years, people might be more swayed to go to medical school which is just one more year."

I think they should make a Bachelor's degree a requirement in order to get into pharmacy school.

 

[mustang sally]

From a preceptor's standpoint, I think that's complete crap.

We've precepted from schools that pay and schools that don't and we're not going to take any more students from schools that don't pay. I know some rotation sites don't put a lot of time or effort into precepting but we put in a ton and should be compensated for it. There is NO reason it should increase anyone's tuition because the amount we get paid is a pittance compared to the # of credit hours the student is paying for - where is the difference going? I have my theories.

Clearly this is a sore spot for me, but I absolutely think sites should be paid by schools. I think it should be a requirement. If the sites aren't up to snuff, the schools need to address that issue but don't penalize all sites.

I put a lot of time and effort into precepting, usually at the expense of other job duties and end up taking work home. I don't personally see any of that $$$ and that's fine but we use it in our dept to pay for education, CEs, memberships - other stuff we might not normally have the budget for. It's too much work for us just to do as a favor.

I would feel a lot less bitter about having to pay for three full semesters of tuition next year if our preceptors got paid. I have no idea where all that money goes to, but it's not the sites at my school.

 

[bacillus1]

I would feel a lot less bitter about having to pay for three full semesters of tuition next year if our preceptors got paid. I have no idea where all that money goes to, but it's not the sites at my school.

So it seems that we're not the only ones for whom tuition increases during rotations. We're not 3 full semesters, but close to that. That's a relief. Seriously, someone needs to demand an audit of these schools to see where this money is going. I can't do it because I don't want to piss off my school, but for everyone that's a pharmacist, anyone want to protect the students' interests (and money) here?

 

[Lubeckd]

"Make pharmacy 7 years, people might be more swayed to go to medical school which is just one more year."

add residency or just make it 7 years in total? they better make the amount of credits go down to 15.. I dont mind 7 years, Im still young.

Well here in NYC, we have St. John's, LIU, and Touro. St. John's generally stays in Queens and Long Island, LIU generally stays in Brooklyn, Queens, Long Island, and Lower Manhattan. And Touro generally stays in Upper Manhattan, the Bronx, Westchester County, and North New Jersey and Queens. So yeah, it's not really a problem in a highly populated city like NYC because there are plenty of sites to go around. Also, Touro has a focus on getting sites in the ghetto.

I thought St John's gets new york presbyterian hospital too, isnt that in the upper west side? and I do see some st john student here in lower manhattan. As for LIU I really dont know; and westchester isnt ghetto is it?

I think preceptors should be payed for their hard work.

 

[spacecowgirl]

I had hoped that it was clear that I was not suggesting that at all. I only meant that because our preceptors do not get compensated for their time, they must do it out of a sense of obligation to the profession or because of their ties to the school. I would think that on the whole we probably get better preceptors because of this, I didn't mean that preceptors who are compensated are automatically worse preceptors. I didn't mean that money automatically means worse experiences or less quality or anything else like that.

perhaps we get higher quality sites because our sites are not motivated by compensation (pure conjecture of course, I haven't even started rotations).

You can see why these statements could be insulting to preceptors who think they should get paid. And really, "paid" isn't the appropriate word, "stipend" is better.

I ain't mad atcha but think about it.

I would feel a lot less bitter about having to pay for three full semesters of tuition next year if our preceptors got paid. I have no idea where all that money goes to, but it's not the sites at my school.

So it seems that we're not the only ones for whom tuition increases during rotations. We're not 3 full semesters, but close to that. That's a relief. Seriously, someone needs to demand an audit of these schools to see where this money is going. I can't do it because I don't want to piss off my school, but for everyone that's a pharmacist, anyone want to protect the students' interests (and money) here?

I agree. We eneded up paying 30% more our P4 year. Figure that one out. One of the reasons I don't have a whole lot of warm fuzzies towards my alma mater.

 

[IndustryPharmD]

I agree. We eneded up paying 30% more our P4 year. Figure that one out. One of the reasons I don't have a whole lot of warm fuzzies towards my alma mater.

I think being willing to precept for free has a lot to do with having warm fuzzies towards one's alma mater. 🙂 Same as volunteering for other causes has a lot to do with liking one's town.

How common is it to pay more in P-4 year than P-1/2/3 (and that's compared to the same academic year, as I assume tuition is still increasing as rapidly as it did when I was in school if not more)?

 

[cycloketocaine]

I think being willing to precept for free has a lot to do with having warm fuzzies towards one's alma mater. 🙂 Same as volunteering for other causes has a lot to do with liking one's town.

How common is it to pay more in P-4 year than P-1/2/3 (and that's compared to the same academic year, as I assume tuition is still increasing as rapidly as it did when I was in school if not more)?

Let's see....for my 1-3 years, I paid around 18 K in tuition per year. My fourth year, I paid 24 K. Awesome.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

How common is it to pay more in P-4 year than P-1/2/3 (and that's compared to the same academic year, as I assume tuition is still increasing as rapidly as it did when I was in school if not more)?

My current school had the same tuition for all three years but it is a three year, year round program. My first pharmacy school charged more for the fourth year but it was supposedly because we were enrolled for three semesters that year.

 

[owlegrad]

I think being willing to precept for free has a lot to do with having warm fuzzies towards one's alma mater. 🙂 Same as volunteering for other causes has a lot to do with liking one's town.

How common is it to pay more in P-4 year than P-1/2/3 (and that's compared to the same academic year, as I assume tuition is still increasing as rapidly as it did when I was in school if not more)?

Block tuition, so it is the same all 4 years.

 

[spacecowgirl]

I think being willing to precept for free has a lot to do with having warm fuzzies towards one's alma mater. 🙂 Same as volunteering for other causes has a lot to do with liking one's town.

Again, my alma mater is thousands of miles from me now so my cold pricklies are sent from afar. There are several schools represented in my dept and none of us want to precept for free .

Let's see....for my 1-3 years, I paid around 18 K in tuition per year. My fourth year, I paid 24 K. Awesome.

😡

My current school had the same tuition for all three years but it is a three year, year round program. My first pharmacy school charged more for the fourth year but it was supposedly because we were enrolled for three semesters that year.

Same here - but it was 4 semesters. Which made no sense because we ended up with the exact same # of credits, just spread out over more semesters, which ended up costing a lot more. The whole thing is shady, IMO. Paying all those fees for a campus you're not on, tech fees for equipment you're not using (not on campus), you're not paying a prof's salary because you're not in class and then they want preceptors to work for nothing? I call major BS on that. Unless the APPE coordinator makes millions of dollars, the whole situation smells funny.

 

[ucrx]

I've also heard that the influx of students into pharmacy schools is gonna go down once they change it to a 7 year minimum program for pharmacy. Being that there is a shortage of doctors, I guess they are thinking.

Where are people hearing this 7 years minimum?

UConn charged more for P4 year, and I believe it was to pay our sites.

 

[Sparda29]

Where are people hearing this 7 years minimum?

UConn charged more for P4 year, and I believe it was to pay our sites.

Well, Touro does 2 years of professional classes and 2 years of rotations. Other schools might do 2 years of preprofessional classes, 3 years of professional classes and 2 years of rotations or 3 years of preprofessional classes, 2 years of professional classes, and 2 years of rotations.

 

[IrishHammer]

Where are people hearing this 7 years minimum?

UConn charged more for P4 year, and I believe it was to pay our sites.

I had heard that UB was upping their prerequisites to essentially turn their program into a 3+4 (thus making it seven years). Not sure if this was true, and if it was true, if it has been put into place. Hopefully either Quiksilver, Prazi, or hckyplayer can confirm or deny this.

If true, though, I wouldn't be surprised to see many more schools follow suit, so maybe the program is on the verge of becoming 7 years.

 

[Praziquantel86]

I had heard that UB was upping their prerequisites to essentially turn their program into a 3+4 (thus making it seven years). Not sure if this was true, and if it was true, if it has been put into place. Hopefully either Quiksilver, Prazi, or hckyplayer can confirm or deny this.

If true, though, I wouldn't be surprised to see many more schools follow suit, so maybe the program is on the verge of becoming 7 years.

This is true. I also think the requirements are difficult to the point that it will become a de facto four-year requirement. I hope other schools follow suit.

 

[MatCauthon]

I know my school charges an extra quarter of tuition which is about 6K for 4th year. Their rationale is that the P4 year fills a whole calendar year and therefore justifies the full year of tuition.

Sheesh, I just hope they don't raise prices until after I graduate next year. That would really suck because it would be like a price hike on top of a price hike.

I feel sorry for all you suckers who go to private schools with sky-high tuition. That would suck in 4th year. I thought I saw one pharmacy had tuition of over 40K in P4 year (University of Pacific, I think). Ouch.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

This is true. I also think the requirements are difficult to the point that it will become a de facto four-year requirement. I hope other schools follow suit.

I agree. I think this would be best for the long term health of the profession. Like medicine and dentistry, where a four-year degree is not technically required but in reality no one gets in without one. I know there are a number of individuals who feel differently, though.

 

[All4MyDaughter]

I feel sorry for all you suckers who go to private schools with sky-high tuition. That would suck in 4th year. I thought I saw one pharmacy had tuition of over 40K in P4 year (University of Pacific, I think). Ouch.

Even public school tuition is skyrocketing in some states. 🙁

 

[owlegrad]

Even public school tuition is skyrocketing in some states. 🙁

Yeah, this confuses me. I don't know why only some state universities are so high. Is it because they are less efficient than others? Get less money from there legislator? I just don't understand some state university tuition's, seems like they should be much lower than private, which is not always the case. Odd. 😕

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Yeah, this confuses me. I don't know why only some state universities are so high. Is it because they are less efficient than others? Get less money from there legislator? I just don't understand some state university tuition's, seems like they should be much lower than private, which is not always the case. Odd. 😕

There is no consistency because funding levels vary from state to state. In a state where the legislature more heavily subsidizes higher education, tuition SHOULD be lower. That doesn't always happen in practice. But essentially, each state can do what they want/charge what they want up to the point that the market will bear.

 

[ucrx]

I agree. I think this would be best for the long term health of the profession. Like medicine and dentistry, where a four-year degree is not technically required but in reality no one gets in without one. I know there are a number of individuals who feel differently, though.

I'm not opposed to the idea, but I don't know how much of a difference 1 or 2 extra years of prerequisites would really make. There really aren't that many prerequisites to add. I also don't think 2+4 programs hurt the profession. Completing all of the requirements in 2 years on top of the majority of the gen ed requirements meant a full (and science-heavy) course load. Students had to take 3 math/science classes a semester and do well in them to get into my program after the 2nd year. Our graduates are smart, professional pharmacists who just happened to know earlier that they wanted to be pharmacists.

However, I do agree that a degree could make an applicant more competitive in the eyes of a selection committee. There are things that a student with a degree can bring, including research experience, more diverse classes, etc. I can see moving to a system where the majority of accepted students have bachelor's degrees even if they aren't required.

I guess I'm trying to say that I don't oppose the idea of 4 years of prerequisites, I just don't think anything is really wrong with just 2 years.

 

[confettiflyer]

I feel sorry for all you suckers who go to private schools with sky-high tuition. That would suck in 4th year. I thought I saw one pharmacy had tuition of over 40K in P4 year (University of Pacific, I think). Ouch.

UOP is a 3 year program

 

[Filler]

UOP is a 3 year program

When you become a P4 next year, will Jefferson charge you for an extra semester?