How do schools judge the PCAT?

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TennisBoy78

TennisBoy78

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I'm currently studying for my last PCAT and am totally exasperated. Don't get me wrong, it's nice to know such trivial information but wasn't I tested on these things when I originally took these classes? No offense, but doesn't the PCAT lack creativity in the sense that it wants test takers to fit one mold?

I know some pundits may say that an "A" at ABC College is not the same "A" at MIT for a certain class, therefore the PCAT places everyone on a level playing field, but if both schools are accredited, isn't it true that both are required to teach you the fundamentals? If I went to MIT, I wouldn't have as great of a GPA, but maintaining a conceivably higher GPA at a lesser school doesn't make me dumb.

Also, the PCAT is based on a curve, a curve that no one can explain (call Harcourt and see how much they cannot tell you about how the test is scored). Since answering one more question correctly could raise your score by more percentile points if you are in the upper bracket means that the difference between a 95 percentile and a 50 percentile could be the difference between only a few questions.

I've read so many posts of people with a 3.0 GPA with a 90+ PCAT get in to their schools. However, I'm in a different position. I have a 3.7 something GPA accumulated over 160+ hours, but only a 60 PCAT composite.

I am applying to non-PCAT schools in addition to lesser competitive PCAT schools, but I don't know what I should expect. I feel like I can hang with any pharmacy student once I'm accepted.

Are there other students like me out there?
 
I hope that other people are in my position. Please respond.
 
I'm not trying to be mean, but did you read my post?

I would like to know if there is any legitimate feedback on students in a similar position as myself who have either gotten into school in years past or are in the application process currently.

I can take the PCAT until I die and never receive a great score. The PCAT has zero to say about my ability to succeed in Pharmacy School and as a Pharmacist.

My GPA/PCAT combination states that I am an average student, but if given the chance to succeed in a classroom setting with clearly defined objectives I can succeed. The PCAT is not clearly defined as your classes are. I know what I will be tested on in classes, but I can only guess at what I will be tested on the PCAT.

Also, do you know how good a 90+ score compares to a 50 on the PCAT? This is just a percentile, not percent correct.
 
hey TB.....i'm in the same situation as u r....i have A 3.9 GPA....and although i have not taken the PCAT yet.. i do not like it....as far as these standardised tests go i'm not the greatest test taker, but give me a damn angular velocity question to answer and i'll do that any day....sure people say so and so college is easier.....but then again i know i busted my A$$ to get that GPA... people come from other colleges xpecting a class to be easier at my college.. but they soon find out.....only reason i go to a smaller college is that i enjoy the smaller classes and the environment....i like it when a teacher can really look at me and say here's your test and not just call my name out in the middle of 200+ students.....i am applying during this cycle so we'll see how things go...😳 ......but we're in the same boat....

P.S. just my 2 cents.....not that its worth much
 
If you cant do well on the PCATs how do you expect to pass the board exam to get certified after pharm school? Its the same thing, no? You're expected to take classes, retain information, and be able to apply it even a couple of years later. The PCAT isnt testing over anymore information than you would be expected to know after pharm school. And I'm pretty sure that pharm programs take into consideration where you did your undergrad. Not to say that they would just assume that youre a better student if you go to a university rather than a cc, but just that some programs are known to be more competitive than others and pharm schools know it. So yea, PCAT scores are important bc if you cant to well on them, how do you expect to get certified?
 
futurepharm82 said:
If you cant do well on the PCATs how do you expect to pass the board exam to get certified after pharm school? Its the same thing, no? You're expected to take classes, retain information, and be able to apply it even a couple of years later. The PCAT isnt testing over anymore information than you would be expected to know after pharm school. And I'm pretty sure that pharm programs take into consideration where you did your undergrad. Not to say that they would just assume that youre a better student if you go to a university rather than a cc, but just that some programs are known to be more competitive than others and pharm schools know it. So yea, PCAT scores are important bc if you cant to well on them, how do you expect to get certified?
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Comparing the PCAT to the NAPLEX is not comparable on so many different levels, but here is the main one:

The NAPLEX is pass or fail, and passing it qualifies a person to practice anywhere in the USA. The PCAT is not pass or fail, it is only a ranking compared to that of other students.

Although no one can say they are 100% positive, I can say that I will be fairly confident that I will pass the NAPLEX on my first try because most schools average an 80 percent or higher passage rate. Those are good odds. Once again, the PCAT is not a pass or fail exam, so I can very well be in the same boat as you will be in passing the NAPLEX years down the road.

Doing "well" on the PCAT is subjective while the NAPLEX is more "objective" because there is a passing/failing score. Sorry, I don't buy your argument.
 
Well, I doubt any school is going to look at your 60 like its a competitive score, but if youre applying to mostly schools that dont look at the pcat then it doesnt even matter. You have a competitive gpa and I'm sure your other stats are pretty good too. So why worry about it?
 
I know that attaining both a good GPA and PCAT score are important, but here's a question -

To those schools that do not establish a minimum GPA or PCAT requirement, does a better GPA or PCAT make someone standout, if you had to only choose one?

Personally, I may be biased, but GPA takes many semesters to establish and is much more difficult to change after taking a lot of classes. The PCAT, however, is a one day test. Having a good GPA, in my opinion, measures persistence and commitment over a long period of time probably more than intellect, whereas having a good PCAT score probably measures a person's intellect more.
 
hey TB,

you sound like a pretty smart guy who knows what your talking about. just try taking the PCAT again. i know it's a lil too late, but sign up for the january test and see how u do the second time. If u end up getting somewhere close to 90 or even 90+, then that's the score that really counts, not u'r first one. show the admin committee and u didn't do well at first b/c u didn't know how the pcat test but then u were persistent, took it again, and passed with flying colors. hell, i didn't get into any pharmacy school last year and i was really upset. so i decided to take the pcat. i studied for 5 hours each day, 3 weeks before the exam and got a 91 composite my first time. my story will tell the admin committee that i perservered.

the world is not over after one pcat test. try not to dwell on one bad test but keep u'r head up and concentrate on what u can do to IMPROVE your applicant slate.

good luck
 
opps, didn't read u'r post entirely. but regardless, just make sure u cover all grounds for the pcat. once again, keep u'r head up and stay positive.
 
TennisBoy, you're coming off as being extremely bitter over your PCAT score. You essentially say the PCAT is useless--can I ask what you think of the SAT and ACT?
 
im in the same position as you are. im attending western kentucky university which is not necessarily known as a competitive academic school. but i have a 3.7, tons of community service and activities. but im taking the pcat next week for the first time. so if i dont get in the 80th percentile will all my work over the past three years be overshadowed by a standarized test.

referring to a couple posts ago, the sat and act are bull**** tests too. i got a 25 my sophomore year of high school, took it 5 times after that and got a 20,21, 23, 24,24 so does that mean that i got more stupid as became more educated? NO. and thats how im seeing the pcat, its not a measuring tool of knowledge. i have other things going on so all it shows is who that person has no life and all they do is study months ahead of time for numerous hours per day. and who in here honestly has done all that math since 4th grade without a calculator, but thats an entirely different topic.
 
Well, to play the devil's advocate, one can say that one is well-educated, but not necessarily intelligent. Standardized testing can help to differentiate between those two subtle definitions.
 
TennisBoy78... I DID read your entry but I misinterpreted it.
My two cents is that, your PCAT score AND your activities/GPA is important. That is why there are people with an amazing PCAT score, or incredibly GPA that do not get in.

True, the PCATs is a standardized test, and yes, the percentiles are very sketchy. BUT it is not like how the SAT/ACT are standardized. I personally believe that the SAT/ACT does a HORRIBLE job predicting how you will do in college/your intelligent. You could potentially not study for the SATs and get approximately the same score, worse, or better every time. It's vocab that you may have acquired over the years and how well you can do abstract like math.

But the PCATs in my opinion, is something more attainable. I can study and study. I HAVE MORE CONTROL of my scores. Yes, there's a point where you can't reach a higher score. But that is just like any school test. Take a neuro-phys class...you can study ALOT but you will come across a point where you've studied all you could and still, your grade is not to your satisfaction.

So as much as I do not like standardized test, I believe the PCATs is one of the better estimates of how much you are able to retain; a vital skill for pharmacy school. I want to deter as many pharmacists that can just do well in pharmacy school, studies what is on the next test, crams for his NAPLEX and passes and then relies on his computer to tell him if a drug will have an interaction with something else. (a bit exaggerated cuz most pharmacists know they are doing but yea). Plus, schools need some way to get the best students...
 
I think the PCAT is an ancient relic and should not be considered for admissions to pharmacy school. I think schools should scrap the PCAT and have a huge simon competition. This will judge the memorization skills necessary to get by in pharmacy school. 😀.


**no one take any offence to my post. I am merely trying to lighten up the environment. I have nothing against the PCAT so dont take my post seriously.**
 
As a person with a low GPA (3.2) and a high PCAT (95), I for one am glad that the PCAT is around--It gives people like me a chance to show that we're not idiots. Tennisboy, I wouldn't worry too much if I were you--your high GPA will supercede your PCAT score as I hope my PCAT will help to shadow my GPA. Just take it again and I'm sure those smarts will shine through :luck:
 
I read your post history gchiq, and you go to Cal - so of course it's insanely competitive there 🙂 I got to a school of roughly the same caliber, so I definitely know how it feels to endure/suffer from high power academics as my PCAT will be my saving grace (we got identical composites!).
 
evilolive said:
I read your post history gchiq, and you go to Cal - so of course it's insanely competitive there 🙂 I got to a school of roughly the same caliber, so I definitely know how it feels to endure/suffer from high power academics as my PCAT will be my saving grace (we got identical composites!).
Click to expand...

good to know I'm not alone 😍 I see you're applying to UMich too... I wonder why more people don't apply there (not that I'm complaining)... it's a really good school and I read on aacp that only ~250 apply there!
 
Hartcourt is just another smart company that knows how to run a monopoly. It is the same as ETS that runs TOEFL and SAT. There's an alternative to SAT, however. TOEFL and PCAT have virtually no competition. I do not know how Hartcourt lobbies these schools. Maybe Harcourt gives a roundtrip to Hawaii plus 6 night hotel for each big shots at the adcom of each school. Or 10% of revenues from testing fees will go into schools as "donation"?

I do not answer the question whether PCAT is good as measuring whether a student can suceed in school or not. But, I'm wondering if anti trust law can be applied to Harcourt.

Bunch of conspiracy theories, but I have no proof, of course. (not yet.....) 😀
 
how do schools judge PCAT..

I assume they judge it numerically.
 
nc_tradition said:
i have other things going on so all it shows is who that person has no life and all they do is study months ahead of time for numerous hours per day. and who in here honestly has done all that math since 4th grade without a calculator, but thats an entirely different topic.
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Uhh hi. I didn't study for the PCAT at all and made 94th percentile. Don't be so quick to judge.
 
ZpackSux said:
geek
Click to expand...

You have no idea. I have a t-shirt from the chemistry frat with an SN2 reaction on it that says "attacking it from the backside since 1902."
 
b*rizzle said:
You have no idea. I have a t-shirt from the chemistry frat with an SN2 reaction on it that says "attacking it from the backside since 1902."
Click to expand...

lol only ppl who have taken organic know what you're talking about. that's awesome.
 
b*rizzle said:
You have no idea. I have a t-shirt from the chemistry frat with an SN2 reaction on it that says "attacking it from the backside since 1902."
Click to expand...


chemistry frat?? 🙄

geek.
 
Well, it is a good thing that you people are not in the actuarial science profession, if you are complaining about the pharmacy exams (PCAT and/or NAPLEX.)

The ASA requries 6 exams with a 35% pass rate on each (you have 3 attempts) and the FSA requires 8-9 exams.

After the ASA is finished you pass 6 exams you will make about $70-90K about the same as a hospital pharmacist, and after the fellowship exams, you will make $120K or mroe.

Each exam is scored from 0-10 and 6 is passing which is anywhere from 60%-72% of the questions correct.

The first four exams are statistics, finance, or economics based, and are all highly quantitative.

The final four-five exams are totally based on memorization of a 300-page book, and are free response.

So, don't complain about the PCAT or NAPLEX. The NAPLEX is only one test with an 80% pass rate.

And the people who take these exams pass 1-3 exams in school, and work at about a $45K salary, while studying for the others, with small raises after each pass. So, the difference is you are getting paid, instead of paying the school. But it is probably much tougher than any pharmacy school.
 
There has to be some method to see where applicants compare to each other and the PCAT is it. It's not how many you get right, but how you rank in comparison to your peers.

In undergrad, you're comparing yourself to other students who may not be as bright as you. When you take the PCAT, you're compared against all the bright pre-pharm students in the USA. I'm sure most of them have a good GPA. A 50% means that you are in the middle of the pack. A 60% puts you a little above average. That is not a bad score. Many schools look at the entire package, not just your PCAT score.

There was nothing on the PCAT that I hadn't seen before in college. So, I disagree that you are presented with material that is brand new and didn't know what to study for.

In pharmacy school, each course builds on the last and you are expected to remember everything from the past even if it is not on the course objectives. Human physiology was a prerequistite. When you take Pathophysiogy in year one it is assumed that you have all your physiology knowledge. You are now learning disease states and they don't have time to reteach you basics. The next year, we learned about drugs and how they applied to those disease states. If you don't remember those you will most likely not pass. And so it goes, with each year building on the last.

The PCAT might have something on it that you haven't seen in two years, but that's how it will be in pharmacy school. If you look at it with this perspective, then you can see that it can be used to gauge your performance in pharmacy school.
 
Isn't it funny that a school like UCSF, which has one of the most competitive programs in the country, doesn't require PCAT? That's got to say something about the PCAT's ability to measure a person's capability of succeeding in pharmacy school. And obviously, UCSF is only one of a handful of good schools that doesn't care about PCAT.

Unless of course, Harcourt just didn't make it's rounds over to the west coast yet in order to woo them into participating in their conspiracy 😉 🙄
 
b*rizzle said:
You have no idea. I have a t-shirt from the chemistry frat with an SN2 reaction on it that says "attacking it from the backside since 1902."
Click to expand...

you're awesome. :laugh:
 
TennisBoy78, have you considered taking a test prep class through Kaplan (or any company) to improve your PCAT score? You claim that you're smart enough to take on pharmacy school, so maybe your problem is in your test-taking ability? Just my 2 cents.

By the way, standardized tests are completely and totally necessary. Why? Because it's impossible to fairly compare students coming from different educational backgrounds. I had a lower cumulative GPA, 3.2, because I majored in one of the most difficult fields out there, engineering. I came from a college where the average GPA is 2.5, and most people lose their HOPE Scholarship within the first semester (the scholarship that pays for your tuition in Georgia as long as you maintain a 3.0 GPA). So if the PCAT were not there, why should a student with a 3.9 GPA who majored in basketweaving get in over someone like me? That's exactly why we need the PCAT. It allows schools to compare applicants by a standard. You say you realize this, but it seems like it's hard for you to accept it. So if I were you, I would just play the game. You want to be a pharmacist, you have to do well on the PCAT. No question. I'm not trying to be harsh, it's just reality. I wish you the best of luck.
 
That school is: Georgia Tech.

And it is a really good school to do engineering but if you want to switch to another field, it is really hard to, your GPA at Tech is probably going to be around .5 lower than if you had gone to UGA and chosen the same major if that major was available.

Also, at the NIH, I met several students who were biomedical engineering undergraduate majors from Johns Hopkins, and they said that most of them would not have the option of considering medical school, because the grading was very harsh over there.

One person that I talked to had a 3.4 GPA after 2 years the other one had a GPA of 3.2 after 1 year. And I asked if there was anyone who could get 3.7 or above, and they said yes, but very, very few students.

So how do you equate people's GPA's? You need a standardized test!
 
Damn straight! Though I would say the discrepancy between a GT GPA and UGA GPA is greater than .5. 🙄

Yes, that is also true about biomedical engineers from Johns Hopkins. My sister graduated from there with a similar GPA to mine and only got into 2 medical schools though she applied to 20. And she had tons of ECs and experience.
 
starsweet said:
TennisBoy78, have you considered taking a test prep class through Kaplan (or any company) to improve your PCAT score? You claim that you're smart enough to take on pharmacy school, so maybe your problem is in your test-taking ability? Just my 2 cents.

By the way, standardized tests are completely and totally necessary. Why? Because it's impossible to fairly compare students coming from different educational backgrounds. I had a lower cumulative GPA, 3.2, because I majored in one of the most difficult fields out there, engineering. I came from a college where the average GPA is 2.5, and most people lose their HOPE Scholarship within the first semester (the scholarship that pays for your tuition in Georgia as long as you maintain a 3.0 GPA). So if the PCAT were not there, why should a student with a 3.9 GPA who majored in basketweaving get in over someone like me? That's exactly why we need the PCAT. It allows schools to compare applicants by a standard. You say you realize this, but it seems like it's hard for you to accept it. So if I were you, I would just play the game. You want to be a pharmacist, you have to do well on the PCAT. No question. I'm not trying to be harsh, it's just reality. I wish you the best of luck.
Click to expand...


Thanks for your input. I will never pay Kaplan $1200 for their stupid course because:

(1) They are not Harcourt and do not devise the PCAT, therefore, their questions are not authentic PCAT questions
(2) Too much money
(3) Your professor can suck - my friend took their course and told me that it is the luck of the draw.

Let me put it this way. I'm not trying to say that I am so smart, but I know my motivation and abilities. I will do whatever it takes to succeed in any class because I have a syllabus and I know what is fair game for the class tests. Yes, some schools may be more difficult than others, but everyone has to take the same pre-reqs, and all of those pre-reqs must teach the basic fundamentals of particular subjects, and every school that applicants attended must be accredited by some larger academic body.

I do agree with your point that since engineering is a more difficult major (I totally agree with you there), an engineering student should not be compared to one that got a degree in basket-weaving. My argument is on the basis of the core pre-reqs set for each school (basket-weaving not included).

If someone didn't do so well in their pre-reqs, the PCAT should help to give them a second chance. However, if a person aced their pre-reqs but got only a average PCAT score, this person should not be made to look like they are inferior based on one test. If this was so, what incentive would it be for that person to accel in his/her pre-req classes in the first place?
 
I am in a similar situation as you. I have accumulated almost 163 credit hours and about to earn a bachelors in chemistry this december. My pcat isn't that stellar the first time around ~ 55% but I have shown academic competitiveness in my prereqs. I took my second pcat this saturday and i did not really know how I fare. Because on my first pcat, I thought I did extremely well on my verbal and reading comprehension and bad on chemistry. It turned out that my verbal and reading comp. were my lowest and chemistry ws my highest not having studied. I just hope that we can stand out in the interview and they will look beyond our pcat..
 
dgroulx said:
In pharmacy school, each course builds on the last and you are expected to remember everything from the past even if it is not on the course objectives. Human physiology was a prerequistite. When you take Pathophysiogy in year one it is assumed that you have all your physiology knowledge. You are now learning disease states and they don't have time to reteach you basics. The next year, we learned about drugs and how they applied to those disease states. If you don't remember those you will most likely not pass. And so it goes, with each year building on the last.

The PCAT might have something on it that you haven't seen in two years, but that's how it will be in pharmacy school. If you look at it with this perspective, then you can see that it can be used to gauge your performance in pharmacy school.
Click to expand...

I agree with you there with one big exception. When will a pharmacist ever have to do math without a calculator? Isn't that kind of a niche skill that has no real value in pharmacy?
 
I am still a strong believer of the way UF does admissions. Two simple factors: prereqs GPA ONLY and PCAT.

You should do well on the PCAT if you have a firm grasp of the material.
I have not seen the test but I am SURE it is not the MCAT, where they throw every trap out there and the questions are not straightforward at all. I bet the PCAT is straightforward and time is your biggest enemy. I have not seen the test, I guess I could be wrong.

As for me, if I ever took PCAT, the math would be close to a guaranteed 99, because I just happen to be a PhD taking courses that are simply unimaginable to most pharmacy students even PhD students. The math only tests up to first-semester calculus, and I took AP Calc in high school back in 1998. The verbal and reading comprehension would probably be not that difficult since I took the GRE and scored 94th percentile in verbal a while back. I would have to study chemistry and biology very hard because that is not in my field, even though I took undergrad genetics and really excelled when I was in masters program, and did better than 90-95% of the class, and oddly enough by best exam of the four inclass tests (not including final) was when I was tested in the microbiology part of genetics (I never had micro), and that had the lowest average test score.

So, I think anything is possible if you are determined! The people with low PCAT's should try to figure out where they are going wrong and try to remember the exam somewhat, and look up the answers. Are you constantly missing a certain concept, are you getting tricked with the close answers in reading comprehension? If so, evaluate how you can improve and study. The PCAT I am sure is NOT an impossible test.

In other countries, they give a much harder test than the PCAT in high school, and if you do not do well, you do not get into college!
 
TennisBoy78 said:
Let me put it this way. I'm not trying to say that I am so smart, but I know my motivation and abilities. I will do whatever it takes to succeed in any class because I have a syllabus and I know what is fair game for the class tests. Yes, some schools may be more difficult than others, but everyone has to take the same pre-reqs, and all of those pre-reqs must teach the basic fundamentals of particular subjects, and every school that applicants attended must be accredited by some larger academic body.

I do agree with your point that since engineering is a more difficult major (I totally agree with you there), an engineering student should not be compared to one that got a degree in basket-weaving. My argument is on the basis of the core pre-reqs set for each school (basket-weaving not included).

If someone didn't do so well in their pre-reqs, the PCAT should help to give them a second chance. However, if a person aced their pre-reqs but got only a average PCAT score, this person should not be made to look like they are inferior based on one test. If this was so, what incentive would it be for that person to accel in his/her pre-req classes in the first place?
Click to expand...

I really do not think you would be automatically labeled as "inferior" just because your PCAT is low. I think that you'd be placed at the same level as someone with a low GPA (lower than 3.0) and a high PCAT except that you have a high GPA and a low PCAT. It seems like you think that schools place a lot MORE importance on the PCAT than on GPA, but I think that this varies with every school. Even at UGA, where a lot of emphasis is placed on both things, I know people whose PCATs were in the 70s. So I think that you are worrying about it too much.

Also, I agree with you that every school has a set number of required prereqs, but again, everyone is coming from different schools and even though all schools are required to teach the fundamentals, they still vary a lot from school to school. Chemistry I at Podunk University is vastly different from Chemistry I at MIT. Trust me.

With the Kaplan class, I believe they guarantee a higher score or your money back. I think that if you improved to at least a 70 you would be okay. Also I agree with cdpiano27 in that you need to find out why you are getting low scores, are you running out of time or are you missing the concepts, etc.
 
Hey man, I'm not a big fan of the PCAT either. But you gotta do what you gotta do. I think they made the PCAT to make our lives miserable. So I'm kind of bitter about that. And when I think about it, it almost makes me angry. I think about it for motivation to study for the PCAT so I can score high on it and shove it in their face. And say, "No, I'm not paying another $105 to take your stupid test again." :meanie: That's how I motivated myself to study for the PCAT. And honestly, it worked good. Because I'm not going to let some stupid test get in my way to pharmacy school. They can suck my ****
 
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