How do the attrition rates work at SGU/Ross/etc.?

[rosebud1]

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I've heard a lot of horror stories about how Caribbean schools have horrible attrition rates and many students fail out. But I was wondering about the specific nature of the attrition rates. How does it work?

Are the attrition rates due to students voluntarily dropping out because they can't keep up with the work load?

Or is it like a threshold system, where all the students who get passing grades or above a certain score can continue on with the program, and those who don't meet the requirements are dismissed? Meaning that everyone who does well can move on and only the underqualified people are dismissed.

Or is it like a competitive application process, where they only take the top x number of people into the upper level, dismissing everyone else (including many qualified people).

Just wondering...

 

[Augustus]

I've heard a lot of horror stories about how Caribbean schools have horrible attrition rates and many students fail out. But I was wondering about the specific nature of the attrition rates. How does it work?

Are the attrition rates due to students voluntarily dropping out because they can't keep up with the work load?

Or is it like a threshold system, where all the students who get passing grades or above a certain score can continue on with the program, and those who don't meet the requirements are dismissed? Meaning that everyone who does well can move on and only the underqualified people are dismissed.

Or is it like a competitive application process, where they only take the top x number of people into the upper level, dismissing everyone else (including many qualified people).

Just wondering...

If you are worried that you won't do well enough to graduate from a Caribbean medical school. You certainly won't pass the USMLE steps.

If you go the Carib then you are going to have then you work and study harder than any US-educated student to get a residency. If you plan on going Carib only to graduate by the skin or you teeth and barely pass the USMLE you will not get a residency in the US. If you don't bring your A game then don't waste your time or money going.

 

[RussianJoo]

attrition isn't that high at SGU probably less than 10% but sgu probably has the toughest admission criteria. Ross has a ver high attrition rate because they'll pretty much accept anyone who will pay their tuition fees. So attrition is high for a number of reasons. #1) people are unqualified to go to medical school and simply do so because they have the money or the credit to take out the loan, those people have low undergrad GPA's and do very poorly on the MCATs. #2) people part too much and don't work as hard as they should. It's the caribbean, people picture themselves studying on the beach or whatever, and so they continue their party rituals as they did in undergrad and party hard, booze is very cheap on the island, it's always 86 and sunny and the beaches are a short walk away, so people don't study but party and fail out. #3) some actually are just not bright enough to succeed, sorry but this is true as well, (even though a very small % of the failures) these people work extermely hard, and study long hours every day but just don't have the mental capacity to do well and fail out. All these people were given a chance to prove themselves by being accepted into med schools with much lower standards of admission.

SGU doesn't force anyone to leave, basically all tests are curved and as long as you do average or above you'll get at least a C. If you fail a class at SGU you retake that class next semester and you must get at least a B. If you don't get a B but pass you still move on but you have these negetave points (1 point for each credit so if it's a 5 credit class you get -5 points.) for every credit you get a B or an A either 1 or 2 negative points is taken away. if however you build up -15 points that's when you're asked to leave. So it's kind of hard to get kicked out of SGU but people do it.

Also you have to be aware that attrition rate also takes into account those that transfer out and about 5% of the SGU class transfers to US med schools.

Also once you fail a class you have manditory tutoring and weekly meetings with the professor to make sure you don't fail again. tutoring and review sessions are of course also available for other students but are not manditory. Other carib schools don't have such a strong support system.

 

[rosebud1]

If you are worried that you won't do well enough to graduate from a Caribbean medical school. You certainly won't pass the USMLE steps.

If you go the Carib then you are going to have then you work and study harder than any US-educated student to get a residency. If you plan on going Carib only to graduate by the skin or you teeth and barely pass the USMLE you will not get a residency in the US. If you don't bring your A game then don't waste your time or money going.

That wasn't what I meant at all. I'm not someone who's doing so poorly in undergrad that I'm convinced that I'd fail med school.

At the moment, I'm unsure about whether or not to consider the Carib as a Plan B. I was just curious as to whether the attrition is due to schools arbitrarily weeding people out to reduce the class size to a certain number. Because if these schools are forcing some of their qualified students out just to reduce their size, I wouldn't even consider it. But if the attrition is just due to underqualified students voluntarily leaving or being dismissed only after poor academic performance, then I'd still consider it.


And thank you, Russian Joo. 🙂

 

[howelljolly]

It depends on the school, and it can be either the students decision or the schools requirements.

A lot of students decide to leave when they find they are doing poorly and are in danger of being expelled for academics anyway. Some also leave because they don't like living in the Caribbean or have obligations at home.

Some schools have a pretty brutal weed-out exam just at the end of second year - in the name of completion of basic sciences, but its really just to weed out those who might no do so well on the Step1. And by weed out, they mean fail out.

 

[Augustus]

That wasn't what I meant at all. I'm not someone who's doing so poorly in undergrad that I'm convinced that I'd fail med school.
1) There is currently a movement going on the US to lessen the country's dependency on foreign trained physicians, which is not good news for Caribbean grads seeking a residency in the States. Will the effects be seen 4 years from now? Maybe. Probably not in drastic numbers. But to me $200K is too much to gamble for a potentially worthless degree.
At the moment, I'm unsure about whether or not to consider the Carib as a Plan B. I was just curious as to whether the attrition is due to schools arbitrarily weeding people out to reduce the class size to a certain number. Because if these schools are forcing some of their qualified students out just to reduce their size, I wouldn't even consider it. But if the attrition is just due to underqualified students voluntarily leaving or being dismissed only after poor academic performance, then I'd still consider it.


And thank you, Russian Joo. 🙂

No school wants to force qualified students out to reduce class size. They are hoping you succeed, they want you to succeed. I didn't mean to question your work ethic. Medical school is demanding and deciding whether or not to attend is not a decision that should be taken lightly. US or Carib or anywhere else you are going to have to work your ass off to do well. Anybody can get through but you just have to be willing to put in the time studying.

I'd be wary of the Caribbean. I've almost all but ruled out going there for two main reasons:

1) There is currently a movement going on the US to lessen the country's dependency on foreign trained physicians, which is not good news for Caribbean grads seeking a residency in the States. Will the effects be seen 4 years from now? Maybe. Probably not in drastic numbers. But to me $200K is too much to gamble for a potentially worthless degree.

2) I want to practice in the US but I'd also like to practice in other parts of the world. A degree from a US MD school is recognized almost everywhere in the world, not the case with the Caribbean.

Also, you definitely have to consider what field you want to go into. If you want Internal Medicine or Family Medicine then the Caribbean isn't a bad option at all. But everything else is a bit more competitive for Carib grads vs US grads.

 

[howelljolly]

No school wants to force qualified students out to reduce class size. They are hoping you succeed, they want you to succeed. I didn't mean to question your work ethic. Medical school is demanding and deciding whether or not to attend is not a decision that should be taken lightly. US or Carib or anywhere else you are going to have to work your ass off to do well. Anybody can get through but you just have to be willing to put in the time studying.

I'd be wary of the Caribbean. I've almost all but ruled out going there for two main reasons:

1) There is currently a movement going on the US to lessen the country's dependency on foreign trained physicians, which is not good news for Caribbean grads seeking a residency in the States. Will the effects be seen 4 years from now? Maybe. Probably not in drastic numbers. But to me $200K is too much to gamble for a potentially worthless degree.

2) I want to practice in the US but I'd also like to practice in other parts of the world. A degree from a US MD school is recognized almost everywhere in the world, not the case with the Caribbean.

Also, you definitely have to consider what field you want to go into. If you want Internal Medicine or Family Medicine then the Caribbean isn't a bad option at all. But everything else is a bit more competitive for Carib grads vs US grads.

Aye, theres the rub. Carib schools do not care if you succeed, and the students are arguably not qualified. (except maybe SGU)

If the students were qualified to be in a US med school, they would ipso facto be in a US med school. (yes I know that every year roughly half of qualified applicants are randomly rejected from med school - carib schools dont fix that issue, they find a way around it)

The schools are in it to make money, and they find thousands of people every year to put their life on hold and shell out tens of thousands of dollars. They want to your money, and they want to keep their numbers high so applicants keep coming.

How do they do that? By not caring if you succeed. They take nearly every applicant, and let them sink or swim on their own. They let you stick around for basic sciences, and maybe even repeat them 2-3 times. During this time you are paying them 30-40grand per year. If you kept your head above the water for 2, maybe 3 years, you get to take the Step1.
In the better schools where you passed a gauntlet, its very likely that you'll pass. In the no-name ones, its likely you'll fail. Whatever the case, a select few students continue on to 3rd year. The schools want it that way because at this point, you go from being a business asset to a business liability. Your school has to pay thousands of dollars to the teaching hospitals for you, and they dont make much of a profit off your back. Might as well not have you at all.

So, dont think for a second that the schools want you to succeed. I also dont think theres such a thing as a qualified student, but thats another topic.

 

[RussianJoo]

oh at SGU you don't have to pay tuition for the class you're repaeting because you already paid for that class once before. you still have to pay administrative fees and for housing but no tuition. SGU have thousands of very successful grads and wants their grads to do well but they're not going to bend over backwards to make that happen, what i mean is that there are many SGU grads who are Program Directors or Department Chairman however those people don't exclusively take SGU students in their residency and many even try not to take SGU students but want US med students. But SGU does have a very strong support system in place for their basic science students. they pay upper classman who got a B or better in a class to hold weekly review sessions multiple times a week, meaning they'll hire a dozen or more students to teach a review session for every subject, so that even if you miss one you can go to another review sessions. profs also hold office hours at least 2 times a week and hold scheduled review sessions once per week. So there's a strong support system but you still have to study on your own to do well. I heard that Ross grades on a bell shaped curve meaning there's always someone who'll fail or they'll raise the passing score to fail mroe people. Ross students feel that the school does this because they don't have enough clinical spots for everyone they accept and so they must fail people out so that the rest have clinical rotations. i don't know how true this is.

 

[tracheatoedoc]

In general schools want well qualified individuals who will graduate and go on to practice. People are denied admission to carib schools, that's one reason there is a second tier of schools. The big 4 get thousands of apps a year and are as selective as they can be. From my class of 76 students, I would say 1/3 were very well qualified and should have been in a US school. Another 1/3 were adequately prepared and did well. The bottom 1/3 or maybe fewer were questionable and stuggled with the curriculum, many failed some squeeked by. So of the original 76 only about 52 made it through the first 2 years.
To say that schools don't care if you succeed is absurd, they want tuition for more than 1 or 2 semesters. I can only speak for AUC, I understand from what I've read here that SGU and Ross have some comprehensive exam that one has to pass to sit for the USMLEs