How do you feel about attending school in the Carribean?

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I thought about applying to a school in the Carribean, but I am worried about the challenges that I may face upon my return to the US. Does anybody have any insight or suggestions?
 
favored said:
I thought about applying to a school in the Carribean, but I am worried about the challenges that I may face upon my return to the US. Does anybody have any insight or suggestions?

i am curious about that to.
 
The international forum may be a better place to put this question.

However, this is my two cents:

I think it's a good alternative if you can't get into a med school in the US, but only use it as a last resort.

Going carribean will mean your chances of getting into anything but primary care more difficult. It will limit your residency options. Many carribean grads will find it hard to place into coveted residency spots and/or specialize.

Also, the carribean schools are located in a third world country, some people have a hard time adjusting to life in a developing nation (water, food, sanitation). And you need to be careful about which carribean schools you want to go to. Some are good, others will take your money and run. Do your research because the standard for setting up some of these schools may not be very high.
 
A friend of mine was banned from applying to all U.S. medical schools due to lying about his personal circumstances. He went to the Caribbean, returned to the U.S. for residency, and is currently doing a fellowship. While it makes things harder, getting a US residency is certainly not impossible.
 
DoctorPardi said:
I feel bad about it.

Not interested. If I don't get in the US, I'll just try again and again until I get in. But I am not, I repeat, I am not leaving this country. 😍
 
favored said:
I thought about applying to a school in the Carribean, but I am worried about the challenges that I may face upon my return to the US. Does anybody have any insight or suggestions?

I have done some research regarding carribbean schools. The thing is that you would be regarded as a foreign graduate and you know there are always complications with that. Like besides the USMLE, there is another exam you would have to take in order to find residency here in the US. Its not an easy exam. Also, some carribbean schools are not even US accredited and they would take literally any applicant that applies. Their funding is low, so the teaching quality, lab/clinical experience is also poor. I believe there are only 2 in the carribean that really reject applicants based on their extremely poor perfomrmance on the MCAT. If you graduate from there, you would also have a tough time looking for residency. So, carribbean schools should be your last option: only if you totally bomb your MCAT and have a very low GPA. Apply for US schools instead. hope this helps.
 
Gabujabu said:
A friend of mine was banned from applying to all U.S. medical schools due to lying about his personal circumstances.

wow... details? what happened??
 
anon-y-mouse said:
wow... details? what happened??

The lie was about the death of a spouse (didn't have a spouse). The med schools found out and blacklisted him.
 
Gabujabu said:
The lie was about the death of a spouse (didn't have a spouse). The med schools found out and blacklisted him.

oh, on his amcas? crazy... I wonder why one would even think to lie about that. what did he say about it?
 
anon-y-mouse said:
oh, on his amcas? crazy... I wonder why one would even think to lie about that. what did he say about it?

The lie was to get sympathy and a leg up in the admissions process. Apparantly it worked because he was accepted and said it helped during the interview, though the lie was later found out (it's pretty obvious).
 
woodhorse22 said:
I have done some research regarding carribbean schools. The thing is that you would be regarded as a foreign graduate and you know there are always complications with that. Like besides the USMLE, there is another exam you would have to take in order to find residency here in the US. Its not an easy exam. Also, some carribbean schools are not even US accredited and they would take literally any applicant that applies. Their funding is low, so the teaching quality, lab/clinical experience is also poor. I believe there are only 2 in the carribean that really reject applicants based on their extremely poor perfomrmance on the MCAT. If you graduate from there, you would also have a tough time looking for residency. So, carribbean schools should be your last option: only if you totally bomb your MCAT and have a very low GPA. Apply for US schools instead. hope this helps.

a couple of points in response:

-i believe the extra test you are talking about is the CSA, and that is a standard part of the USMLE that even US grads have to take.

-there are 4 carribbean schools that are recognized by all 50 states for you to get licensure, and these are SGU, Ross, AUC, and Saba. You really dont want to stray away from these 4. these all have graduates practicing in the US

-you will have a harder time coming back to a competitive residency, but it is not impossible. Look at last years match lists from these schools, and you will see a lot of variation in their matches. I think AUC had a couple people match into nuero, but double-check to be sure

-the worst part about the carribbean is a lack of support system that you would have otherwise had in the states, so be prepared for a lot of self-study

-on the other hand, if you get rejected from the US schools, it provides a viable back-up plan if you do not want to try to go the the post-bac route.

-check valuemd.com, it is an invaluable resource for foreign med school info

hope this helps
 
Sorry guys, maybe this isn't relevant but i'm confused - is there a difference between the Ross University that's in Edison, NJ and the one in the Carribean? I tried checking the websites posted, and they seem to be the same...are they two different campuses of the same school, or different schools altogether? Sorry if I'm being stupid for not knowing this, but I'm just a little confused.
 
I'd rather do the ultimate backup for premeds before considering Caribbean... dental school.
 
woodhorse22 said:
I have done some research regarding carribbean schools. The thing is that you would be regarded as a foreign graduate and you know there are always complications with that. Like besides the USMLE, there is another exam you would have to take in order to find residency here in the US. Its not an easy exam. Also, some carribbean schools are not even US accredited and they would take literally any applicant that applies. Their funding is low, so the teaching quality, lab/clinical experience is also poor. I believe there are only 2 in the carribean that really reject applicants based on their extremely poor perfomrmance on the MCAT. If you graduate from there, you would also have a tough time looking for residency. So, carribbean schools should be your last option: only if you totally bomb your MCAT and have a very low GPA. Apply for US schools instead. hope this helps.

I think there are pretty good threads on other boards worth looking at on this issue. Other points I have heard on SDN -- the carribean is more expensive, and a lot of student aid won't cover them. Also bear in mind that the attrition rate in the carribean is quite high, and a good percentage of every starting class doesn't make it through -- while in the US over 90% of any med school class will get MDs. Also note that the pass rate on step 1 is about 20% lower for carribean students than US allo. And reportedly, some of the better carribean schools only let students who have achieved certain GPAs in med school sit for the boards on time (I heard this on SDN, have no idea how true it is). Thus the board pass rates and residency placements tend to look better than the average student does at some of these schools because much of the class gets screened out (by attrition or being held back).
 
Gabujabu said:
A friend of mine was banned from applying to all U.S. medical schools due to lying about his personal circumstances. He went to the Caribbean, returned to the U.S. for residency, and is currently doing a fellowship. While it makes things harder, getting a US residency is certainly not impossible.


The fellowship director at Sloan Kettering went there. So it is possible.
 
sometimes you have to say: "Maybe i am not cut out for medical school". Lookat other fields before the carribean
 
favored said:
I thought about applying to a school in the Carribean, but I am worried about the challenges that I may face upon my return to the US. Does anybody have any insight or suggestions?

You can get a US Residency. Some graduates get very, very good residencies. But it is tough. For the majority of people, I've been told, you're getting the "left overs" - residencies that weren't filled by US graduates. It mostly has to do with where you are doing your 3rd & 4th year rotations, though. The hospitals in the US that you do these rotations at are in areas that often just won't give you the kind of exposure that the residency directors want to see you've had. I'm talking about the competitive programs, though.

Still, there's the never-ending debate about whether you're better off going to a DO school. Provided you can get into one.
 
LifetimeDoc said:
I would be very saddened to have to goto the carribean to get a MD degree, but if it's the only way to become a physician then so be it.
I am assuming that everyone is talking about the Carribean as a backup for when you can't get into a US allopathic OR osteopathic program, correct?

I understand the necessity of going the FMG route if you can't get in to either, but to go to the carribean instead of a DO program I think is shooting yourself in the foot. Talk to enough folks and you'll find that most competive residencies favor US Allopathic >> US Osteopathic >> FMG.
 
notdeadyet said:
I am assuming that everyone is talking about the Carribean as a backup for when you can't get into a US allopathic OR osteopathic program, correct?

I understand the necessity of going the FMG route if you can't get in to either, but to go to the carribean instead of a DO program I think is shooting yourself in the foot. Talk to enough folks and you'll find that most competive residencies favor US Allopathic >> US Osteopathic >> FMG.

I am really trying to find out how true that is... You don't see many DO's in competitive MD residencies. I've heard of more FMG's getting a competitive MD residency than I have DO's getting them. But I am talking about just a handful of people, either way.
 
A more realistic question would be how do you feel about attending a DO school?

I'd still consider dental school before DO personally, but that may be just because I'm ill-informed about the DO programs.
 
sometimes you have to say: "Maybe i am not cut out for medical school". Lookat other fields before the carribean

Very true......probably one of the most important statements made on SDN in a long time.
 
I thought that I would head for the Carribeans after this year. But after speaking to a doctor who is a paid advisor for Ross and SGU but is a close client of my dad's, I found out that the Carribean is not a sure bet as so many would like to think.

I am of the same mind as Baylormed, I will not leave this country.
 
I'd still consider dental school before DO personally, but that may be just because I'm ill-informed about the DO programs.

Dentistry is one of the few jobs more boring than primary care medical practice....the options to specialize are rather limited due to an extreme lack of sufficient residencies. Most dentists wind up as general practitioners, not in any of the interesting specialties (OMS, etc).

BTW Many dental schools (actually MOST) are as selective (or more so) as medical schools so you don't have that much of a chance of getting in if you can't get into medical school.
 
DropkickMurphy said:
Dentistry is one of the few jobs more boring than primary care medical practice....the options to specialize are rather limited due to an extreme lack of sufficient residencies. Most dentists wind up as general practitioners, not in any of the interesting specialties (OMS, etc).

BTW Many dental schools (actually MOST) are as selective (or more so) as medical schools so you don't have that much of a chance of getting in if you can't get into medical school.

Well I think I can still get into med school personally... hopefully.

But really I think dental school is most certainly easier than med schools to get into.
National GPA average is a lot lower, and although most schools in CA have high GPA average, there are some private schools that a CA resident can attend with low avg GPAs.

Also, the DAT is really a joke compared to the MCAT both in terms of length and difficulty.
First of all, those of us who did well on the SAT math will find the math section to be a joke, and if you took the MCAT you should be prepared for the bio, gchem and ochem sections.
PAT is the only obstacle then, which I seemed to do well judging from how I did when I was looking at my wife's DAT problems.

But seriously, I'd hate being a dentist.
That would be just in it for the money, as I really cannot think of many more boring jobs than lookin at people's oral cavity for extended hours.

At least they make pretty good money and have working hour flexibility, not to mention less risk for malpractice lawsuits.

But still, the fact that it's boring completely turns me off.
 
baylormed said:
Not interested. If I don't get in the US, I'll just try again and again until I get in. But I am not, I repeat, I am not leaving this country. 😍

same.
 
shnjb said:
I'd still consider dental school before DO personally, but that may be just because I'm ill-informed about the DO programs.
Wow. If you're ambivalent about going to medical school, I'd definitely avoid going the Carribean. A DO is a physician, a dentist is an entirely different career.

If you'd consider leaving medicine altogether to pursue dentistry, fair play, but I'd think long and hard about going to the Carribean. You can still carve out a great career for yourself going the FMG route, but it will be hard to do so if you're looking at a competitive residency. Just food for thought.
 
notdeadyet said:
Wow. If you're ambivalent about going to medical school, I'd definitely avoid going the Carribean. A DO is a physician, a dentist is an entirely different career.

If you'd consider leaving medicine altogether to pursue dentistry, fair play, but I'd think long and hard about going to the Carribean. You can still carve out a great career for yourself going the FMG route, but it will be hard to do so if you're looking at a competitive residency. Just food for thought.

I would agree US DO is better than Carrib MD, at least US DO schools have comparable board passing rates as US MD, and a majority who graduate will match into a residency, either osteo or allo. This is not a guarantee @ Carrib. However if you are ignorant about what a DO is (i.e. you think the ONLY way to be a physician is an MD), and you have no desire to learn, then forget it, because DO schools wouldn't admit someone who didn't understand what a DO is. Also many DO schools have comparable acceptance stats to MD schools, whereas Carrib MD are much lower than US MD or US DO.
 
notdeadyet said:
I am assuming that everyone is talking about the Carribean as a backup for when you can't get into a US allopathic OR osteopathic program, correct?

I understand the necessity of going the FMG route if you can't get in to either, but to go to the carribean instead of a DO program I think is shooting yourself in the foot. Talk to enough folks and you'll find that most competive residencies favor US Allopathic >> US Osteopathic >> FMG.


I also wondered this and emailed the National Residency Matching Program (NRMP) December of '05 for information regarding residency placements for MD's vs. DO's vs. Foriegn Medical Graduates (FMG's) and here is what they sent me:

http://www.nrmp.org/res_match/tables/table2_05.pdf


Basically it says MD's match at a 94% rate, DO's at a 69% rate, and FMG's at 55%. For what it's worth, the text of the reply email told me that, generally speaking , US residency positions are filled by US medical graduates first and then FMG's (obviously clinical scoring and board scores are of primary importance). Finally, it's worth noting that 5th pathway students (go to med school overseas then do an additional rotation year at a US school) have a better match rate than FMG's (but below MD's and DO's).

So basically...DO before overseas, though I'd recommend checking individual school match rates if possible because this obviously lumps ALL foriegn schools together (good with the bad).

BTW-A match for these stats is being accepted into a Top-3 choice of the applicant.
 
AngryBaby said:
I also wondered this and emailed the National Residency Matching Program (NRMP) December of '05 for information regarding residency placements for MD's vs. DO's vs. Foriegn Medical Graduates (FMG's) and here is what they sent me:

http://www.nrmp.org/res_match/tables/table2_05.pdf


Basically it says MD's match at a 94% rate, DO's at a 69% rate, and FMG's at 55%. For what it's worth, the text of the reply email told me that, generally speaking , US residency positions are filled by US medical graduates first and then FMG's (obviously clinical scoring and board scores are of primary importance). Finally, it's worth noting that 5th pathway students (go to med school overseas then do an additional rotation year at a US school) have a better match rate than FMG's (but below MD's and DO's).

So basically...DO before overseas, though I'd recommend checking individual school match rates if possible because this obviously lumps ALL foriegn schools together (good with the bad).

BTW-A match for these stats is being accepted into a Top-3 choice of the applicant.

So this 69% rate for DO... is that DO matching into Allo? Or does it also include osteo residencies in addition to allo residencies?
 
strawberryfield said:
So this 69% rate for DO... is that DO matching into Allo? Or does it also include osteo residencies in addition to allo residencies?

Its just 69 because DO's know how to DO it right. 😉 🙄 hehe


At one point I thought I'd attend a Carib over an osteopathic, but then it turns out the specialties are more limited for Carib grads than osteopathic. On top of that, going Carib for the MD initials doesn't make much sense, because nobody really notices, as others have pointed out, whether you are MD or DO.

most people seem to just care whether you can treat them, and do it well.
 
strawberryfield said:
So this 69% rate for DO... is that DO matching into Allo? Or does it also include osteo residencies in addition to allo residencies?

I am almost 100% certain those are only allopathic residencies. The osteopathic "match" program is handled by a different organization:

http://www.natmatch.com/aoairp/index.htm

All allopathic residencies are accredited by the ACGME, obviously, but whether there's a crossover of programs accredited as both allo and osteo I do not know (but highly doubt).
 
AngryBaby said:
I am almost 100% certain those are only allopathic residencies. The osteopathic "match" program is handled by a different organization:

http://www.natmatch.com/aoairp/index.htm

All allopathic residencies are accredited by the ACGME, obviously, but whether there's a crossover of programs accredited as both allo and osteo I do not know (but highly doubt).

Thanks for the info! 👍 You have been very helpful! 😉
 
favored said:
I thought about applying to a school in the Carribean, but I am worried about the challenges that I may face upon my return to the US. Does anybody have any insight or suggestions?

I'll put it this way. A monkey with Down's syndrome could get accepted to a med school in the Carribean.

At least you'll have a high class rank.

:laugh:
 
My brother went to SGU and matched into radiology in the US.

He did work his a$$ off, though, and his 3rd and 4th year clinical rotations were all at hospitals around the US. I think he planned it pretty well, so that his rotations were at really good places to do a lot and learn -- e.g. Emergency medicine in Oakland.

He's never been much of a academic person, at least grades and test-taking-wise, which is why he went to SGU. He's great with people, though, a good leader, and good at getting stuff done.
 
almost_there said:
My brother went to SGU and matched into radiology in the US.

He did work his a$$ off, though, and his 3rd and 4th year clinical rotations were all at hospitals around the US. I think he planned it pretty well, so that his rotations were at really good places to do a lot and learn -- e.g. Emergency medicine in Oakland.

He's never been much of a academic person, at least grades and test-taking-wise, which is why he went to SGU. He's great with people, though, a good leader, and good at getting stuff done.

Like I said, I've heard of more people from SGU getting good US residencies than I have heard of DO's getting good allo residencies. I know people SAY that DO graduates are favored over FMG's, and I liked that table AngryBaby posted (thanks, by the way) but I just haven't heard of real PEOPLE that are DO's getting the great, competitive allopathic residency matches. I have heard of FMG's doing so, and so I'm just not sure what to believe about it all.
 
almost_there said:
My brother went to SGU and matched into radiology in the US.

He did work his a$$ off, though, and his 3rd and 4th year clinical rotations were all at hospitals around the US. I think he planned it pretty well, so that his rotations were at really good places to do a lot and learn -- e.g. Emergency medicine in Oakland.

He's never been much of a academic person, at least grades and test-taking-wise, which is why he went to SGU. He's great with people, though, a good leader, and good at getting stuff done.

I had heard of some people going to school there, and transferring to a US school for the last two years, not sure whether this was what they meant. Is it possible to transfer from a caribbean school to a US school?
 
uvce said:
I had heard of some people going to school there, and transferring to a US school for the last two years, not sure whether this was what they meant. Is it possible to transfer from a caribbean school to a US school?
Possible, Yes. Probable, No.
 
uvce said:
I had heard of some people going to school there, and transferring to a US school for the last two years, not sure whether this was what they meant. Is it possible to transfer from a caribbean school to a US school?

No. Not really.

You would still need the credentials (MCAT and college GPA) to have been admitted initially. You wouldn't have these stats if you were down in the Caribbean in the first place.

You would also have to outcompete domestic transfers and be competing for open spots where people have dropped out.

Not gonna happen.
 
Orthodoc40 said:
Like I said, I've heard of more people from SGU getting good US residencies than I have heard of DO's getting good allo residencies. I know people SAY that DO graduates are favored over FMG's, and I liked that table AngryBaby posted (thanks, by the way) but I just haven't heard of real PEOPLE that are DO's getting the great, competitive allopathic residency matches. I have heard of FMG's doing so, and so I'm just not sure what to believe about it all.


I agree there's a million variables to consider which is why getting the match rate from the particular schools you're interested in would be ideal (though I heard a rumor that this year the match rate is no longer determined by a top 3 match but simply matching at all).

I know very little about the Carribean schools other than they are typically held in lower esteem than the US schools, osteo or allo. By the way, if you use the match list at SGU make sure it is for 1 year only, as many Carribean schools combine several years into 1 list for obvious reasons. Catch is they don't specifically say that the list is combined for several years. Also, that table I posted includes ALL FMG's, so you're getting docs from South Africa, Spain, etc with the excellent schools in Ireland, England, Australia, etc. So the match rate for the bad overseas schools may be bringing down their match rate, though to some degree that's true for all categories of docs. Again it's really about the individual student, and less about the school even though the school has a big part in molding the student.

Finally, I will say that the excellent DO schools are without a doubt more desirable than overseas, and there a few osteo- schools with better match lists than middle-and especially low-tier MD programs...try to get info specific for your school(s).
 
AngryBaby said:
I agree there's a million variables to consider which is why getting the match rate from the particular schools you're interested in would be ideal (though I heard a rumor that this year the match rate is no longer determined by a top 3 match but simply matching at all).

I know very little about the Carribean schools other than they are typically held in lower esteem than the US schools, osteo or allo. By the way, if you use the match list at SGU make sure it is for 1 year only, as many Carribean schools combine several years into 1 list for obvious reasons. Catch is they don't specifically say that the list is combined for several years. Also, that table I posted includes ALL FMG's, so you're getting docs from South Africa, Spain, etc with the excellent schools in Ireland, England, Australia, etc. So the match rate for the bad overseas schools may be bringing down their match rate, though to some degree that's true for all categories of docs. Again it's really about the individual student, and less about the school even though the school has a big part in molding the student.

Finally, I will say that the excellent DO schools are without a doubt more desirable than overseas, and there a few osteo- schools with better match lists than middle-and especially low-tier MD programs...try to get info specific for your school(s).
Just to echo a few points, there are a large number of graduates due to the 3 semesters. So one derm out of 400-500 isn't that impressive. It's hard to tell what connections/research anyone has so I wouldn't use the if he can do it so could I philosophy.
 
AngryBaby said:
Finally, I will say that the excellent DO schools are without a doubt more desirable than overseas, and there a few osteo- schools with better match lists than middle-and especially low-tier MD programs...try to get info specific for your school(s).

I'd like to hear what DO schools you're referring to. I'm really interested - not trying to be difficult! It may come down to this choice for me, and I'm really not sure what to think.

Along with you're very useful information, it also occurs to me that roughly 75% of DO graduates choose Primary Care (or Family Practice, or Internal Medicine, whatever you decide to call it) for their specialty. Obviously the fact that they are choosing not very competitive specialties makes it easier for them to match into one of their top allopathic choices. Doesn't it? So the higher match rates that you got in that chart aren't really saying, "Oh yah, if you want to go into plastic surgery, you're better off going to a DO school than to the Carribean", necessarily...Or are they??

Also, even though one can get match lists for certain schools, without a lot of background research it is awfully hard to know what is a truly "good" match list. You have to know the specialties, and which hospitals would be among the best places to train for those specialties. That's pretty specific information that people tend to gather after they know what they want to match into.
 
Orthodoc40 said:
I'd like to hear what DO schools you're referring to. I'm really interested - not trying to be difficult! It may come down to this choice for me, and I'm really not sure what to think.

Along with you're very useful information, it also occurs to me that roughly 75% of DO graduates choose Primary Care (or Family Practice, or Internal Medicine, whatever you decide to call it) for their specialty. Obviously the fact that they are choosing not very competitive specialties makes it easier for them to match into one of their top allopathic choices. Doesn't it? So the higher match rates that you got in that chart aren't really saying, "Oh yah, if you want to go into plastic surgery, you're better off going to a DO school than to the Carribean", necessarily...Or are they??

Also, even though one can get match lists for certain schools, without a lot of background research it is awfully hard to know what is a truly "good" match list. You have to know the specialties, and which hospitals would be among the best places to train for those specialties. That's pretty specific information that people tend to gather after they know what they want to match into.

TCOM & OSU-COM, for example
 
THere is a reason that more FMGs get into comp residencies vs DOs. That reason is the philosophy behind osteopathic schools CENTERS around primary care and holistic approaches. therefore the vast majority end up in primary care residencies (it's consistent with the philosphy). It is still possible to get an MD surgical resideny with a DO, just harder to find a spot...

Orthodoc40 said:
I am really trying to find out how true that is... You don't see many DO's in competitive MD residencies. I've heard of more FMG's getting a competitive MD residency than I have DO's getting them. But I am talking about just a handful of people, either way.
 
Does anyone know the countries that recognize US DO's?? Because I am interested in later practicing outside the US, but was considering the carib route over the DO route simply because I do not know how widely accepted the DO is overseas.

any info would be great
 
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