How do you feel about Psychologist prescription privileges?

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InfoNerd101

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Are you for or against properly trained psychologists potentially gaining prescription privileges?

What about the fact that psychiatric NP's can prescribe psychotropic medications. Does that bother you?

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Are you for or against properly trained psychologists potentially gaining prescription privileges?

What about the fact that psychiatric NP's can prescribe psychotropic medications. Does that bother you?

I think psychologists should be allowed to....but I realize it's bad for our future if it catches on.

The psych np angle.....it doesn't bother me because there is absolutely no reason they shouldn't be able to prescribe. It's not brain surgery. That said, it also hurts us a lot. And as psych np numbers explode(and they will...oh they will) the crunch is really going to be seen. A lot of people don't realize that now in many areas outpt psych nps are doing the EXACT SAME THING. And it's spreading to inpatient. This is true in independent practice states and not.
 
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I think psychologists should be allowed to....but I realize it's bad for our future if it catches on.

The psych np angle.....it doesn't bother me because there is absolutely no reason they shouldn't be able to prescribe. It's not brain surgery. That said, it also hurts us a lot. And as psych np numbers explode(and they will...oh they will) the crunch is really going to be seen. A lot of people don't realize that now in many areas outpt psych nps are doing the EXACT SAME THING. And it's spreading to inpatient. This is true in independent practice states and not.

You stated prescribing is not brain surgery. No its not brain surgery but certainly requires a level of expertise
 
Are you for or against properly trained psychologists potentially gaining prescription privileges?

What about the fact that psychiatric NP's can prescribe psychotropic medications. Does that bother you?
The operative word here is "Properly trained". Of course no one will be against properly trained people doing something. I don't see them as properly trained. I don't think this is as much of a threat as some think. Most psychotropics are being badly written by primary care already. I don't see how this would change things much. Maybe primary care will write less crazy dose and refer cases to psychologist to write poorly for them.
 
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It's not too hard, I learned to write in the first grade. The really hard part is learning all those little abbreviations bid, tid, qd, hs. ;)

Lol, so I take it you are a prescribing psychologist?
 
It's not too hard, I learned to write in the first grade. The really hard part is learning all those little abbreviations bid, tid, qd, hs. ;)

Dude. That is so true. That and getting my handwriting to the proper level of illegibility. People are always telling me my handwriting is too good for a doctor. I try, but the struggle is real.


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Are you for or against properly trained psychologists potentially gaining prescription privileges?
If 'properly trained' means something close to med school, then of course it's fine. Otherwise, here's my answer from another thread some time ago on a similar topic:

Any specialty can be taught separately from the start -- we could have a psychiatry school, ortho school, rads school, cards school, etc -- without having to teach all that is taught in medical school. This would produce clinicians that are competent at treating what they have been trained to treat. However, it would cause a fragmentation of the health system. You wouldn't be able to really know and understand issues going on outside your domain. Your ability to understand the research being done would be more limited if it ever discussed the actual biochemistry or effects elsewhere in the body. I think this would cause certain issues to be missed and others to be mismanaged.

Having gone through medical school and taken all those classes has provided me with the background necessary to provide a more 'integrated' care when necessary (and I hate that phrase, I don't mean it in this fluffy, pseudoscientific holistic sense that some do, I'm being more concrete). I certainly don't remember all the details of anatomy or biochemistry, but when necessary I can refresh myself rather quickly as this is information I once knew. And it does matter for understanding some research and some patients. For example, I had an outpatient that claimed to have an autonomic neuropathy due to a cutting of the vagus nerve during a uterine fibroid surgery, and we were wondering if there was some malingering/factitious component to her symptoms. I needed to be able to communicate intelligently with the neurologist, gastroenterologist, and pain doctor. I had to understand what they were saying and the tests they did. I had to use my anatomical knowledge to understand if her claims made sense, and if the Ob/Gyn ever sent me the surgical report, then I would have needed my anatomical knowledge again to make sense of what it said.

For most cases, I believe that most of medical school isn't necessary. But these other cases aren't so rare as to make any of medical school unnecessary for us to learn.
 
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If 'properly trained' means something close to med school, then of course it's fine. Otherwise, here's my answer from another thread some time ago on a similar topic:

my counter to this would be that psychiatry(and perhaps something like optho and maybe derm) is different in terms of the feasibility of this(meaning separate schools and tracks entirely) than most medical fields. Many specialties are obviously much more entrenched in general medicine stuff than our field. To deny that reality is absurd. To say that a gastroenterologist or internist uses what he learned in medical school on a daily basis more than us is just common sense......
 
Do a bunch of doctors believe in practicing medicine without a license?

I guess it's a debate between providing access to care and not really caring about what happens to psych patients.
 
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Do a bunch of doctors believe in practicing medicine without a license?

I guess it's a debate between providing access to care and not really caring about what happens to psych patients.

They care enough that you manage the drama. Beyond that, not really...
 
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Since most prescribing psychologists have to have their prescriptions "approved" by a physician before being written, I would think that there is a substantial money making opportunity for psychiatrists in the rxp stuff.
 
Since most prescribing psychologists have to have their prescriptions "approved" by a physician before being written, I would think that there is a substantial money making opportunity for psychiatrists in the rxp stuff.

Which states actually have this in effects already?
 
Properly trained? Sure. But we're probably not going to agree on what that means.

There are terrible prescribers out there. Terrible. And they're not just outliers. From one angle you could approach this and say "well everyone else is doing it bad, why not us?" Or we could acknowledge that there's a problem and handing out prescription pads to more people isn't the answer.

People talk about the shortage of psychiatrists (or "prescribers" for those who speak agenda lingo). There's no shortage of people willing to put people on wacky regimens and poly pharmacy because people "need it" for stability (i.e. have a lot of ingrained axis II issues and are making everyone else miserable). The people who "need it" aren't reached by prescribing psychologists. If they were, a prescribing psychologist isn't what they need. Neither is a nurse practitioner. Neither is about half the psychiatrists in the country.

But, by all means, let's take the focus off the type of care delivered and instead sell it as a great business opportunity.
 
In fact, as a public health measure, I could get behind taking away prescribing privileges from a sizable portion of the prescribing population.
 
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In fact, as a public health measure, I could get behind taking away prescribing privileges from a sizable portion of the prescribing population.

So you don't think NP's or psychologists should have prescribing rights?
 
Which states actually have this in effects already?

Louisiana requires that a physician concur with the proposed prescription, and any and all changes, before it is written and that the pt has a PCP. NM requires that the psychologist have an collaborative relationship with the primary care physician who oversees that the medications are appropriate. No PCP, no prescriptions. In LA, after 3 years the psychologist can apply for independent practice which still requires notifying the PCP about medication, changes, and overall treatment.

No one knows what the IL law will entail. No one has ever gotten licensed in Guam.

IMO, rxp stuff is a big nothing.
 
Since most prescribing psychologists have to have their prescriptions "approved" by a physician before being written, I would think that there is a substantial money making opportunity for psychiatrists in the rxp stuff.

While I am certainly open to making money, I don't believe that this is an appropriate way to go about it. The quality of education is just not there.
 
So you don't think NP's or psychologists should have prescribing rights?
The quote your responding to was more hyperbole about the current state of prescribing psychiatric medications regardless of training. In short I do not think psychologists should have prescribing rights. NPs are another matter because they're already everywhere. They serve a purpose, just like psychiatrists. But, just like psychiatrists, they can practice awfully and their formal training is limited.

There's a big problem with trying to solve social problems with psychiatry. More "prescribers" fuels this. But prescribing positions currently pay more so everyone wants a piece of that pie under the guise of "expanding access."

What kind of cases are psychologists looking to prescribe for? Clearly not SMI. With regard to expanding access argument, how many people regularly see a psychologist who simultaneously don't have access to a PCP (not to say that PCPs are good prescribers either)?
 
The quote your responding to was more hyperbole about the current state of prescribing psychiatric medications regardless of training. In short I do not think psychologists should have prescribing rights. NPs are another matter because they're already everywhere. They serve a purpose, just like psychiatrists. But, just like psychiatrists, they can practice awfully and their formal training is limited.

There's a big problem with trying to solve social problems with psychiatry. More "prescribers" fuels this. But prescribing positions currently pay more so everyone wants a piece of that pie under the guise of "expanding access."

What kind of cases are psychologists looking to prescribe for? Clearly not SMI. With regard to expanding access argument, how many people regularly see a psychologist who simultaneously don't have access to a PCP (not to say that PCPs are good prescribers either)?

So why do you feel it's OK for NP's with proper training to prescribe but not psychologists?
 
So why do you feel it's OK for NP's with proper training to prescribe but not psychologists?

Not quite what I said but NPs are a reality while prescribing psychologists aren't with few exceptions. That doesn't mean I think NP equates to "proper training." As mentioned previously, anyone could do anything with proper training. This is not limited to psychologists. Psychiatrists, with proper training, could place stents, administer psychological testing or even run air traffic control.
 
I should have been an ATC rather than in medicine. No debt and 6 figures with a strong federal union.

Lol, something tells me their job isn't all peaches and cream either.
 
I should have been an ATC rather than in medicine. No debt and 6 figures with a strong federal union.
You could always pioneer the first psychiatrist-to-air-traffic-control bridge program.
 
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Or you could just expand the scope of practice of psychiatrist to include ATC. Either one.
 
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You're all just being silly.

The obvious route is to give air traffic controllers prescribing privileges.
 
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No way, man. Have you seen the burnout rates in ATCs?
It would surely decrease when they see their incomes boost from Rx. And psychiatrists' satisfaction would also increase when they saw the business opportunity of providing on-paper oversight to Rx ATCs.
 
Where does a person find a psychiatric NP to see? I've seen them mentioned a lot in this forum. When I search for them in my area I only see job offers (and they're for inpatient settings). I don't see any people who advertise themselves as outpatient psychiatric NPs, but I've never seen NPs of any sort advertised. According to npfinder.com (which appears to be the official finder site from the Association of Nurse Practitioners), there are none within 100 miles of me. And within a hundred mile radius of me there are 4.4 million people.
 
Where does a person find a psychiatric NP to see? I've seen them mentioned a lot in this forum. When I search for them in my area I only see job offers (and they're for inpatient settings). I don't see any people who advertise themselves as outpatient psychiatric NPs, but I've never seen NPs of any sort advertised. According to npfinder.com (which appears to be the official finder site from the Association of Nurse Practitioners), there are none within 100 miles of me. And within a hundred mile radius of me there are 4.4 million people.

Almost every practice that accepts insurance has one in my area.
 
The quote your responding to was more hyperbole about the current state of prescribing psychiatric medications regardless of training. In short I do not think psychologists should have prescribing rights. NPs are another matter because they're already everywhere. They serve a purpose, just like psychiatrists. But, just like psychiatrists, they can practice awfully and their formal training is limited.

There's a big problem with trying to solve social problems with psychiatry. More "prescribers" fuels this. But prescribing positions currently pay more so everyone wants a piece of that pie under the guise of "expanding access."

What kind of cases are psychologists looking to prescribe for? Clearly not SMI. With regard to expanding access argument, how many people regularly see a psychologist who simultaneously don't have access to a PCP (not to say that PCPs are good prescribers either)?
There are times when my having Rx privileges would be of use for my patients, but that is usually only because of bad prescribing by their current doctor or more often their NP. Also, we have no psychiatrists in our community. It wouldn't be about increasing access it would be about improving quality of care, but that would only be the case for my patients and I couldn't generalize from that to saying it would be a good thing in general for psychologists to involve themsves in that role.

On the other hand, I wouldn't really want to spend most of my time writing prescriptions for poor, uneducated, unemployed, low IQ patients who don't really have a mental illness that medications will help or the stream of substance users that are a constant reality.
 
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Yeah, that's the thing. Prescribing meds is the last thing most psychologists I know want to be doing. They all figure if they'd wanted to do that, they'd have gone to med school.


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While I support it in theory, if not in current practice, I would not be likely to pursue it if it made it's way to my state. At the places I've worked, prescribers are almost solely med management, and that's not how I want to spend my day.
 
Almost every practice that accepts insurance has one in my area.

Or make it 4 NP per MD. I know, this is just for Texas ;)

It is very common here to have the patient be evaluated by the psychiatrist initially and never see him/her again, all follow-ups were done by the NP. My patients really really hate that.
 
Anyone can do 1-step prescribing. Schizophrenic = antipsychotic = probably going to use an atypical = seroquel comes to mind first. Tired = already on SSRI's = let's add some adderall.

I think it's a separate thing entirely to consider side effects, drug interactions, comorbidities, reducing polypharm, taking a second look at the formulation, etc.
 
Anyone can do 1-step prescribing. Schizophrenic = antipsychotic = probably going to use an atypical = seroquel comes to mind first. Tired = already on SSRI's = let's add some adderall.

Are you sure you have done your psych rotation? :mad::D

I totally agree with your second part!
 
Are you sure you have done your psych rotation? :mad::D

I totally agree with your second part!
It was an example of bad prescribing that only considers "one step", as distinct from a well-informed approach (second part), I should have made that more obvious.

Also, this can describe anyone. I've seen plenty of decompensated patients come in to the inpatient unit on, for example, two antipsychotics, lithium, and 800mg QD of modafinil--all prescribed by their outpatient psychiatrist--to think that "one-step" behavior is limited to non-physicians. I think it's more likely behavior from providers with less training (and substantially less clinical oversight during training.)
 
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Again, we should be raising the bar, not lowering it. It's too low as it is.

Ideally we'd be raising the bar in many areas of healthcare. The question is, where should the bar be raised to, and what data would justify where the adequate bar level would be? Clinical providers, across disciplines, generally have done a terrible job at evaluating meaningful clinical outcomes and their relationships to different levels of care.
 
Ideally we'd be raising the bar in many areas of healthcare. The question is, where should the bar be raised to, and what data would justify where the adequate bar level would be? Clinical providers, across disciplines, generally have done a terrible job at evaluating meaningful clinical outcomes and their relationships to different levels of care.
I completely agree with these sentiments. The challenge is how to conduct outcome research that can parse the difference in education, training, credentialing, and experience. In our state, the LPCs won the battle in the legislature to keep doing assessments and part of the rationale was that we can't demonstrate that we do a better job with our assessments in the outcome research. For example, as a neuro guy, do you have evidence to indicate that your assessment of patients with TBI would lead to better patient outcome than my own? I am pretty sure that you would do a better job than I and when I want a neuropsych assessment, I refer out, but how to demonstrate that through research is the challenge. I specialize in providing psychotherapy in a medical setting and I think that my skill set as a psychologist makes me the best candidate for this job and the hospital and most of my patients agree, but the same problem applies.

Part of the reason could be that research works well with averages and expertise comes into play more with the exceptions. I was talking to my wife about this the other day because she refuses to use a midlevel as her PCP. Most of the time it doesn't matter if it is an NP or PA or MD because the patient will get better regardless; however, when the stuff hits the fan, you want the person with the most training, experience, credentials in the room. Most of us would want the MD. Same goes for psychotherapy. Everyone thinks they can do my job until there is a crisis, then it's a different story. Which is one reason why I prefer more severe cases.
 
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The research is very difficult to achieve because most psych meds do not have immediate complications. Funding for the research will never be there.

Anyone can choose a random SSRI, but when Remeron results in weight gain and elevated lipids, how quickly will it be addressed by psychologists? The nuances of all of the drugs will be missed resulting in lesser care.
 
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