How do you guys schedule your study breaks?

[metalgearHMN]

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Do you guys set a time limit or maybe lecture limit? For example, do you study for 30 minutes, then take a 10 minute break, or do you take a break after you've finished a section of a book or topic or something? Or do you have no schedule and just take a break whenever for as long as necessary?

 

[sully677]

Do you guys set a time limit or maybe lecture limit? For example, do you study for 30 minutes, then take a 10 minute break, or do you take a break after you've finished a section of a book or topic or something? Or do you have no schedule and just take a break whenever for as long as necessary?

I study until one of two things happen: I need a break so I walk around for a few minutes or I go to the restroom. Taking a 10min break for every 30 min does not seem very efficient.

 

[cliffhuxtableDO]

For the first study session of the day I either go until I finish the lecture or whenever 2 hours has passed. If there are subsequent sessions in the same day I have to take breaks about every 45 minutes just because I'm easily distracted later in the day because of mental fatigue. Coffee helps though.

 

[BlitzSleep]

I take a break when I need it.

 

[samuraiR]

I take a break when I need it.

lol, maan...i'm at work and everyone started looking at me as I burst out laughing. that was awkward

 

[BennieBlanco]

Do you guys set a time limit or maybe lecture limit? For example, do you study for 30 minutes, then take a 10 minute break, or do you take a break after you've finished a section of a book or topic or something? Or do you have no schedule and just take a break whenever for as long as necessary?

Greatest ratio ever made... 6:1

6 days work, 1 day rest

60 min study, 10 min rest

 

[metalgearHMN]

Greatest ratio ever made... 6:1

6 days work, 1 day rest

60 min study, 10 min rest

Nice, I think I'm gonna try and stick to the 60 min study, 10 min rest ratio

 

[mipp0]

That's interesting. For me, I usually just study for 2-3 hours straight, then take a big break (1-2 hours) to cope with the mental fatigue (intense 2-3 hour studying), then jump right back into another 2-3 hours.

When I'm feelin' extra crazy, I go 5 hours straight with 30 minute breaks here and there.

To everyone their own style.

 

[IndianVercetti]

That's interesting. For me, I usually just study for 2-3 hours straight, then take a big break (1-2 hours) to cope with the mental fatigue (intense 2-3 hour studying), then jump right back into another 2-3 hours.

When I'm feelin' extra crazy, I go 5 hours straight with 30 minute breaks here and there.

To everyone their own style.

Yes, this is me too lol
i get some weird adrenaline rush sometimes and can study in streaks.

 

[BennieBlanco]

Nice, I think I'm gonna try and stick to the 60 min study, 10 min rest ratio

Best habit you can develop is first thing to do three 60/10's. Right when you wake up, or quickly after classes (if you have a full class day, then obviously 1 or 2 hr break is good).

No internet/TV/etc until your first three 60/10's are logged.

The only time I go longer (i.e. 90 min plus) is obviously FL practice or sometimes you get fixated on a topic and go through. Best to take the breaks though. You will be more effective and be able to study longer than those doing 3 hrs at a time.

I have done 9-10 hrs logged (actual study time) with this schedule, which is wayyy more than most med students do. During undergrad if you do 3-4 hrs everyday you can get a 4.0.

plus 60/10s force you to focus. You don't mess around during your 60 minutes because you have time to mess around during your break. (no phone calls/texts/internet/breaks/etc)

I have this timer from amazon:

Polder 898-95 Clock, Timer and Stopwatch, Black

but anyone will work.

 

[surftheiop]

I have done 9-10 hrs logged (actual study time) with this schedule, which is wayyy more than most med students do. During undergrad if you do 3-4 hrs everyday you can get a 4.0.

Depends where you go to school and what major your in ...

I know before I switched out of ChemE there where semesters where I would be taking classes that would require 20+ hours each week to do just the homework assignment.

If your taking two classes like that, a lab w/ lab reports, one more "normal" engineering class and a liberal arts class that requires some reading, there is no way you could even pass if you only worked outside of class for 4x7=28 hrs per week.

On weeks when I had a test I would easily be spending 60+ hours a week doing work outside of class and was making like 3.3. (Semester after I transferred out of chemE I made a 4.0 and spent about half that much time working)

Thank goodness I transfered out of ChemE though, the senior design class professor expects you to spend 40+ hours a week working on your design project outside of class. Then you still have to take like 3 other classes at the same time 😱

 

[BennieBlanco]

Depends where you go to school and what major your in ...

I know before I switched out of ChemE there where semesters where I would be taking classes that would require 20+ hours each week to do just the homework assignment.

If your taking two classes like that, a lab w/ lab reports, one more "normal" engineering class and a liberal arts class that requires some reading, there is no way you could even pass if you only worked outside of class for 4x7=28 hrs per week.

On weeks when I had a test I would easily be spending 60+ hours a week doing work outside of class and was making like 3.3. (Semester after I transferred out of chemE I made a 4.0 and spent about half that much time working)

Thank goodness I transfered out of ChemE though, the senior design class professor expects you to spend 40+ hours a week working on your design project outside of class. Then you still have to take like 3 other classes at the same time 😱

Yeah, there are probably a handful of majors that this rule doesn't apply (physics/engineering) BUT most people are not in those or don't stay in them.

Especially as premed where adcoms don't care if you are a biology or physics major.

Scenario 1: 50+ hrs week on school
Scenario 2: 30 hrs week on school and 20 hrs on MCAT or ECs

Time can be better spent, there is no benefit to the tougher majors for getting into med school. PLUS it has the downside of less time and likely lower GPA.

 

[Mister T]

Depends where you go to school and what major your in ...

I know before I switched out of ChemE there where semesters where I would be taking classes that would require 20+ hours each week to do just the homework assignment.

If your taking two classes like that, a lab w/ lab reports, one more "normal" engineering class and a liberal arts class that requires some reading, there is no way you could even pass if you only worked outside of class for 4x7=28 hrs per week.

On weeks when I had a test I would easily be spending 60+ hours a week doing work outside of class and was making like 3.3. (Semester after I transferred out of chemE I made a 4.0 and spent about half that much time working)

Thank goodness I transfered out of ChemE though, the senior design class professor expects you to spend 40+ hours a week working on your design project outside of class. Then you still have to take like 3 other classes at the same time 😱

That pretty much explains why I had a "low" gpa in engineering (3.35) overall.

I completed the 4 years though and in retrospect if I could do it again with what I know now, I would have just taken an easy major like sociology.

Medical school admissions' criteria are highly flawed for this exact reason (it's not fair for the ones who take harder classes/professors/etc. who get lower grades for naturally harder classes to be effectively discriminated against).

It's why they should place almost all value on the MCAT rather than GPA in my opinion unless they introduce a system that can correct for professor differences and whatnot (which can NEVER happen unless there are STANDARDIZED exams throughout the country ---- i.e. exams like the MCAT).

There's no way to know which student cruised through college and the one who didn't.

In the end, a B or C+ in a class like advanced thermodynamics is going to be frowned upon compared to a class like Communications 300 where a student can get an easy A to medical school.

Anecdotal story, but my good friend who went to Johns Hopkins (probably the most cutthroat undergrad school ever) ended up getting a 3.0 GPA in computer engineering and ended up getting a 31 on the MCAT.

His acceptances to MD schools (he was a little bit older): 0.

When he asked the admission committees where he went wrong, they told him his GPA WAS TOO LOW. We also checked up mdapplicants.com just for the hell of it to see what types of applicants got into the schools that he applied to and found a couple of hispanics/blacks with 2.9-3.0 GPAs with 27s and 28s in biology or pychology or some generally "softer" classes, and a bunch of biology majors with 3.6s and the same MCAT scores.

Of course, you're going to have idiots who will profess that you "should" have gotten an A in the class if you're smart/hardworking enough. NO, you idiot, it's not how it works.

It's really sad how it works because the system provides a disincentive for those who want to actually learn something that interests AND CHALLENGES them (and note: interest is NOT = to good grades, it's a component of it).

It's a reason why I told my younger sister to just avoid biology/biochem/physics/etc. and anything hard, and just choose an easy major instead (she's going to take a bunch of classes at community college and at her easy podunk state university!). Her ultimate goal is to become a medical doctor, and college is more of a nuisance and huge obstruction to our ultimate goal of becoming doctors (they can do it in Europe after high school without any problems/increased risk to patients, why can't we do it too?)

 

[surftheiop]

That pretty much explains why I had a "low" gpa in engineering (3.35) overall.

I completed the 4 years though and in retrospect if I could do it again with what I know now, I would have just taken an easy major like sociology.

Medical school admissions' criteria are highly flawed for this exact reason (it's not fair for the ones who take harder classes/professors/etc. who get lower grades for naturally harder classes to be effectively discriminated against).

It's why they should place almost all value on the MCAT rather than GPA in my opinion.

There's no way to know which student cruised through college and the one who didn't.

In the end, a B or C+ in a class like thermodynamics is going to be frowned upon compared to a class like Communications 300 where a student can get an easy A.

yeah, I definately agree, it seems absurd that GPAs from different majors/schools are even compared.

Like for example I have 2 A's in Physics, 2 A's in intro Bio, 2 B+'s in Honors gen chem, A in organic, A in Organic lab, A in Pchem lab.

But then I have a ton of B's in multivariable/vector calculus, fluid mechanics, honors quantum mech, honors pChem, intro to engineering, etc. etc.

So my GPA ends up being 3.55ish, and therefore somebody majoring in psych who got a C in Organic and B's physics, but has a 3.8 will be looked on more favorably than me.

(I did take a random 300 level psych class w/o taking the prereqs partially to show I could easily get A's in non-engineering classes)


I transferred to Bioengineering so Im still in the engineering school, but its alot more relaxed than ChemE/EE/CS/MechE would be.

 

[Mister T]

yeah, I definately agree, it seems absurd that GPAs from different majors/schools are even compared.

Like for example I have 2 A's in Physics, 2 A's in intro Bio, 2 B+'s in Honors gen chem, A in organic, A in Organic lab, A in Pchem lab.

But then I have a ton of B's in multivariable/vector calculus, fluid mechanics, honors quantum mech, honors pChem, intro to engineering, etc. etc.

So my GPA ends up being 3.55ish, and therefore somebody majoring in psych who got a C in Organic and B's physics, but has a 3.8 will be looked on more favorably than me.

(I did take a random 300 level psych class w/o taking the prereqs partially to show I could easily get A's in non-engineering classes)


I transferred to Bioengineering so Im still in the engineering school, but its alot more relaxed than ChemE/EE/CS/MechE would be.

You get it.

My advice to you (the no bull**** Mister T story), cherry pick a lot of your classes at community college and at your university that are easy before you apply. I was too confident that my Bs in my engineering classes would be understood by medical schools but apparently not and I was too arrogant to waste my time with "easy" classes. In retrospect, I should have taken a hell lot more of them.


You won't believe the amount of bull**** they will say to you because you weren't "good" enough (**** please, if you can accept underrepresented minorities, for instance, with mediocre gpas and MCAT scores to medical school without any detriment to the PATIENT, then I fail to see how others are unqualified and incompetent).

Of course you'll have those who'll say to just go DO, but I think it's better to wait and take the risk of getting into an MD school if you want to get into competitive residencies (not to mention the obscenely high costs of DO schools for a lot of the good ones, and the controversial issue with the "DO" stigma as taboo as it is around here on SDN).

 

[IndianVercetti]

You won't believe the amount of bull**** they will say to you because you weren't "good" enough (**** please, if you can accept underrepresented minorities, for instance, with mediocre gpas and MCAT scores to medical school without any detriment to the PATIENT, then I fail to see how others are unqualified and incompetent).

Of course you'll have those who'll say to just go DO, but I think it's better to wait and take the risk of getting into an MD school if you want to get into competitive residencies (not to mention the obscenely high costs of DO schools for a lot of the good ones, and the controversial issue with the "DO" stigma as taboo as it is around here on SDN).

Mister T, if you are honestly serious about some of the things you say on this forum, I'm truly shocked. While I agree that engineering students have a tougher time, and are scrutinized unnecessarily when comparing GPAs, your view on medicine is incredibly skewed. Earlier, you authoritatively declared that Indians are entering medicine solely for social status, with no real passion for the field, and now you're demeriting the efforts of URM students?

And what is this "controversy" surrounding DOs? As far as I'm aware, they are solid physicians just as MDs. The fact that you are spreading misinformation about osteopathic medicine is the reason any such 'stigma' persists today. The AOA has osteopathic specific residencies in all fields of medicine, including the competitive fields such as anesthesiology and dermatology. Entering these fields is difficult regardless of whether one is an MD or DO.

 

[Mister T]

Mister T, if you are honestly serious about some of the things you say on this forum, I'm truly shocked. While I agree that engineering students have a tougher time, and are scrutinized unnecessarily when comparing GPAs, your view on medicine is incredibly skewed. Earlier, you authoritatively declared that Indians are entering medicine solely for social status, with no real passion for the field, and now you're demeriting the efforts of URM students?

And what is this "controversy" surrounding DOs? As far as I'm aware, they are solid physicians just as MDs. The fact that you are spreading misinformation about osteopathic medicine is the reason any such 'stigma' persists today. The AOA has osteopathic specific residencies in all fields of medicine, including the competitive fields such as anesthesiology and dermatology. Entering these fields is difficult regardless of whether one is an MD or DO.

No one cares if you're shocked. I tell it like it is.

And yes Indians and Asians (I'm Asian) definitely go into medicine for the money, job security, status, and family pressure. In fact, that is the reason why they are OVERREPRESENTED minorities.

To continue to argue otherwise is just plain naive and/or downright dishonest. Stop deluding yourself and get back to me when you're a bit older ok?

Gotta love it when premeds who are still under mommy and daddy's support and haven't even entered the real world yet are telling you that your view on life is skewed

And what is this "controversy" surrounding DOs? As far as I'm aware, they are solid physicians just as MDs. The fact that you are spreading misinformation about osteopathic medicine is the reason any such 'stigma' persists today.

There's a reason why it's forbidden on SDN to ask is MD =/= DO, because people keep on asking the same questions over and over again.

AND you're making a strawman argument by saying that I am spreading misinformation about osteopathic medicine. I simply said that there is stigma and lower priority (and higher costs) on getting into competitive residencies in osteopathic schools. Sure, you'll point out that person A or B from some school did it, and I can point out that there's somebody from a Carribbean school or a foreigner who could do it too, but they're the exception rather than the norm. One need only look at any match list from a DO school to know what I'm talking about (which may or may not be acceptable to you depending on your goals).

I'm not the one who dictates the rules the way they are (how the patients/peers/colleagues/etc. perceive DOs), so don't turn it against me. I never said that DOs aren't as competent as MDs, I simply said that they have a harder time in proving themselves qualified to others.

You, on the other hand, try to forcibly believe in being politically correct which is not the same as really being correct now is it?

Edit: I'm not demeriting the efforts of URM students. Another straw man argument from you. I simply said that if a lot of URM students can get in with mediocre GPAs and MCATs (for whatever reasons), and medical school deems them competent enough to become doctors, then students with "low" gpas but overall good qualifiers should be too. This is medicine we're talking about (which is by far just regurgitation), not rocket science). Does this sound politically "uncorrect" to you? Sorry, but this is the internet, not an admission committee nor am I trying to impress some pre-med dorks about how much nobler I am than you.

Get back to me in a few years when you wisen up, kid.

 

[Mister T]

Mister T, if you are honestly serious about some of the things you say on this forum, I'm truly shocked. While I agree that engineering students have a tougher time, and are scrutinized unnecessarily when comparing GPAs, your view on medicine is incredibly skewed. Earlier, you authoritatively declared that Indians are entering medicine solely for social status, with no real passion for the field, and now you're demeriting the efforts of URM students?

And what is this "controversy" surrounding DOs? As far as I'm aware, they are solid physicians just as MDs. The fact that you are spreading misinformation about osteopathic medicine is the reason any such 'stigma' persists today. The AOA has osteopathic specific residencies in all fields of medicine, including the competitive fields such as anesthesiology and dermatology. Entering these fields is difficult regardless of whether one is an MD or DO.

Oh and here's a simple little thought experiment for you, that shouldn't be too difficult for you.

If DOs were given the chance to convert their DO licenses to MDs, let's say out of 10,000 DOs, how many of them would convert them if it cost $65 to do so?

Few? A lot? Most?

Reason why I ask is because this has happened before in America.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=109334

Basically, there were about 2600 DOs in California in the 60s, and after this Proposition was passed, OVER 2000 DOs CHOSE TO CHANGE THEIR LICENSES TO MD ONES and under 500 chose to keep their DO licenses.

 

[IndianVercetti]

No one cares if you're shocked. I tell it like it is.

And yes Indians and Asians (I'm Asian) definitely go into medicine for the money, job security, status, and family pressure. In fact, that is the reason why they are OVERREPRESENTED minorities.

To continue to argue otherwise is just plain naive and/or downright dishonest. Stop deluding yourself and get back to me when you're a bit older ok?

Gotta love it when premeds who are still under mommy and daddy's support and haven't even entered the real world yet are telling you that your view on life is skewed

For you to categorize all Indians and Asians that enter medicine as in it for "money and status" is incredible. Of course, this may be the case in many households, but I know that status has and never will mean anything to me. Yes, I am Indian, yet my parents always encouraged me to pursue goals that I felt passionate about. If anything, I realized at a young age that falling into the comparison trap - where an individual evaluates his/her success based on the accomplishments of others, is an extremely negative practice. With certainty I can say that I am not the only such Indian or Asian applicant.

If you are entering medicine for the money/status/family pressure then you can say that about yourself. It's not necessary to categorize an entire demographic as lacking in passion for medicine.

There's a difference between just "saying the right things" in order to gain an acceptance and being genuine about what you speak.

I'm not going to pursue the MD/DO discussion, as there are plenty of those already. But the California statistic you stated from the 1960s was during a time when DOs faced markedly greater prejudice than anything conceivable today. A few years after that proposition, when NYCOM was created, graduates had extreme difficulty finding residency programs in the greater NYC area (for example, during this time, AOA residencies were still developing). So, due to the medical climate at that time, I'm not surprised by the physicians' sentiments regarding the DO degree

 

[Mister T]

For you to categorize all Indians and Asians that enter medicine as in it for "money and status" is incredible.

I think it's safe to say that when somebody says that "doctors make a lot of money" or "girls like cocky guys", or "Indians and Asians go into medicine for money, status and job security" that they are generalizations that apply to the majority rather then the minority (the exceptions).

Of course, this may be the case in many households, but I know that status has and never will mean anything to me. Yes, I am Indian, yet my parents always encouraged me to pursue goals that I felt passionate about. If anything, I realized at a young age that falling into the comparison trap - where an individual evaluates his/her success based on the accomplishments of others, is an extremely negative practice. With certainty I can say that I am not the only such Indian or Asian applicant.

Then you're naive and overly idealistic or maybe just better than 99.5% of the rest of the human population. Again, get back to me in a few years and then tell me how you feel.

But the California statistic you stated from the 1960s was during a time when DOs faced markedly greater prejudice than anything conceivable today. A few years after that proposition, when NYCOM was created, graduates had extreme difficulty finding residency programs in the greater NYC area (for example, during this time, AOA residencies were still developing). So, due to the medical climate at that time, I'm not surprised by the physicians' sentiments regarding the DO degree

The plain truth is that in the US and pretty much around the world MD is synonymous with physician. One, the distinction between MD and DO has blurred to the point of being invisible save fore the addition of OMT which is employed only in very specific circumstances by most DOs. Second, I have also wondered why, if DOs feel OMT is so vital and beneficial to medical practice, do they not try and integrate it into all of medical training. It seems like DO schools are trying to be distinct above actually trying to help as many people as possible. The parts of OMT that have research to show their efficacy should be offered as at least an elective to allopathic students, and ultimately the two professions should merge to one that simply offers the best medical care possible. Ultimately the confusion for patients and practitioners, and especially DO students who must navigate both the Comlex/AOA world, but also the USMLE/ACGME world, needs to subside under one recocognizable roof, MD.

That would solve a lot of problems.

 

[IndianVercetti]

The parts of OMT that have research to show their efficacy should be offered as at least an elective to allopathic students, and ultimately the two professions should merge to one that simply offers the best medical care possible. Ultimately the confusion for patients and practitioners, and especially DO students who must navigate both the Comlex/AOA world, but also the USMLE/ACGME world, needs to subside under one recocognizable roof, MD.

That would solve a lot of problems.

OMT electives are already available in many allopathic medical schools. Just as I think we are both realizing that the differences between a DO and an MD are next to nothing, the medical 'stigmas' are also shifting. Just looking at the match lists for top DO schools today versus ten years ago shows a drastic increase in specialization.

There are both pros and cons to having the MD and DO dichotomy, My point wasn't to hyper-analyze this. Bottom line, you'll get a high quality education either way.

Good discussion, Mr. T - hopefully no hard feelings

 

[youngnflyy]

I usually just take a break as I feel I need it. I think that there are a couple of important things to look out for. First, if you find yourself reading the same stuff over and over again, but mentally you're just tired, it's best to just take a break. You're more likely to retain the info if you're refreshed as opposed to plugging away if you're mind isn't really in it. The other thing is that you want to exhibit some discipline when you do take breaks. 10 minutes can very easily become 30 minutes, or even worse, a nap. lol

 

[Mister T]

Good discussion, Mr. T - hopefully no hard feelings

None taken --- intelligent discussion should not personally offend anyone --- the truth is the most important thing in the end or the closest thing to it, whatever that is.

 

[mipp0]

I think it's safe to say that when somebody says that "doctors make a lot of money" or "girls like cocky guys", or "Indians and Asians go into medicine for money, status and job security" that they are generalizations that apply to the majority rather then the minority (the exceptions).



Then you're naive and overly idealistic or maybe just better than 99.5% of the rest of the human population. Again, get back to me in a few years and then tell me how you feel.




The plain truth is that in the US and pretty much around the world MD is synonymous with physician. One, the distinction between MD and DO has blurred to the point of being invisible save fore the addition of OMT which is employed only in very specific circumstances by most DOs. Second, I have also wondered why, if DOs feel OMT is so vital and beneficial to medical practice, do they not try and integrate it into all of medical training. It seems like DO schools are trying to be distinct above actually trying to help as many people as possible. The parts of OMT that have research to show their efficacy should be offered as at least an elective to allopathic students, and ultimately the two professions should merge to one that simply offers the best medical care possible. Ultimately the confusion for patients and practitioners, and especially DO students who must navigate both the Comlex/AOA world, but also the USMLE/ACGME world, needs to subside under one recocognizable roof, MD.

That would solve a lot of problems.

Hey T,

Look man, I'm Asian American and going into the field because I love medicine. "Most" Asian Americans don't go into the field because of status and money. That's a ridiculous, dangerous claim, and you seem to enjoy stroking with a very broad brush.

Most Asian American students I've spoken to are going into the field because they want to, not because their parents are forcing them too. Please grow up brother. I'm far from an idealist, and if you've ever read my past posts, you'd know that. I've definitely stood in the fire arguing for preference over socioeconomic considerations versus putting an emphasis on race. But I do argue in a manner where I'm not being obstinate.

Why not take a step back, take a deep breath, and rethink your approach to how you argue your points?

There is a stigma on DOs--that isn't a figment of our collective imaginations. This is a fact. Notice I didn't say anything about their abilities.

URM matriculants get into med school with lower GPA and MCAT scores. That is a fact. If these students actually did work in underprivileged areas in the future without question, then I'd be more keen to this reality. As I've mentioned before, I think preference should be on socioeconomic status alone, not race.

 

[Mister T]

Hey T,

Look man, I'm Asian American and going into the field because I love medicine. "Most" Asian Americans don't go into the field because of status and money. That's a ridiculous, dangerous claim, and you seem to enjoy stroking with a very broad brush.

Most Asian American students I've spoken to are going into the field because they want to, not because their parents are forcing them too. Please grow up brother. I'm far from an idealist, and if you've ever read my past posts, you'd know that. I've definitely stood in the fire arguing for preference over socioeconomic considerations versus putting an emphasis on race. But I do argue in a manner where I'm not being obstinate.

Why not take a step back, take a deep breath, and rethink your approach to how you argue your points?

Fantastic. You know that you love medicine before you even entered it. The fact that you want to go into medicine for the "passion" makes you the "exception" (a very naive one) again. Again, like I said to our Indian friend here, get back to me, let's say in 4 years when you're done with medical school?

Again, there is a simple reason why people are going into medicine --- and I stated beforehand. It's for the money, job security, and status. My source? I can point to a complicated study, but all I need to point to is the fact that Asians and Indians are considered "overrepresented" minorities for the health field. I've never heard this term used in the context of LAW school, or teaching, business, etc. Only in healthcare and the hard sciences and engineering.

If I am proven wrong, then Asians and Indians are just intrinsically more altruistic than black and white people then huh? If this is true, then we should figure out what altruism genes they have so that we can replicate that condition in everyone. Btw, does it have anything to do with the lack of acetaldehyde dehydrogenase by any chance?

"Most" Asian Americans don't go into the field because of status and money. That's a ridiculous, dangerous claim, and you seem to enjoy stroking with a very broad brush.

Yes, yes they do, and it is the de facto reason why they do --- that's just being honest. There's a reason why there is a predominance of Asians and Indians in the sciences particularly the health field compared to other fields. To ignore this fundamental fact is just idiotic and to say so otherwise is just plain naive, ignorant, and dishonest.

going into the field because I love medicine.

I think this indicates enough about yourself. Maybe when you're a little older, and mommy and daddy aren't supporting you any longer, and you work a real job you'll get off of your high horse.

I'm done here ---- arguing with premeds that know next to nothing about nothing is a waste of time.

http://www.medschoolhell.com/2006/09/10/premeds-stfu/

 

[mipp0]

Fantastic. You know that you love medicine before you even entered it. The fact that you want to go into medicine for the "passion" makes you the "exception" (a very naive one) again. Again, like I said to our Indian friend here, get back to me, let's say in 4 years when you're done with medical school?

Again, there is a simple reason why people are going into medicine --- and I stated beforehand. It's for the money, job security, and status. My source? I can point to a complicated study, but all I need to point to is the fact that Asians and Indians are considered "overrepresented" minorities for the health field. I've never heard this term used in the context of LAW school, or teaching, business, etc. Only in healthcare and the hard sciences and engineering.




Yes, yes they do, and it is the de facto reason why they do --- that's just being honest. There's a reason why there is a predominance of Asians and Indians in the sciences particularly the health field compared to other fields. To ignore this fundamental fact is just idiotic and to say so otherwise is just plain naive, ignorant, and dishonest.



I think this indicates enough about yourself. Maybe when you're a little older, and mommy and daddy aren't supporting you any longer, and you work a real job you'll get off of your high horse.

I'm done here ---- arguing with premeds that know nothing about nothing is a waste of time.

http://www.medschoolhell.com/2006/09/10/premeds-stfu/

I can't help but laugh at your responses.

Mommy and daddy helping me out? You've got to be kidding me.

Buddy, I've worked in the OR with doctors for 1600 hours. I've spoken to doctors and everybody in their fellowships. I've saved their cases a few times. I've worked with primary care doctors, worked in the ER, and have been part of trauma cases. I don't give a damn about the money, because I've been poor my whole life. I'd like to pay everything back and be knee deep in humanitarian missions. In fact, I'm thinking about joining the naval medical program.

You are the last person to be giving me advice. The doctors tell me, and I know it, I LOVE MEDICINE. I'm GOING INTO THE FIELD BECAUSE I LOVE IT SHERLOCK.

You don't know a thing about me and your ridiculous generalizations oversimplify the Asian American lived experience. Get off your high horse and stop being a pompous ass. You must have insecurity problems, because you can't stand an opposing opinion without trying to discredit a person you don't know. Stop the ad hominem attacks.

Seriously bro, GROW UP.

 

[IndianVercetti]

I LOVE MEDICINE. I'm GOING INTO THE FIELD BECAUSE I LOVE IT SHERLOCK.

What mipp0 says is all I'm trying to say. I'm a very pragmatic person, who like you, Mr. T, says it like it is. So for you to say that I'm idealistic is far from the truth.

Asians and Indians in general are a people that value hard work and education. Sure, today that might be manifested as encouraging the pursuit of professional degrees, but this value was NEVER rooted in greed for money, power, etc. For example, in Hinduism, the emphasis on education is evident. It's not at all a stretch to think that in many Asian cultures, the values of hard work and gaining an education are ingrained within the minds of the people.

This may play a role in regard to how many Indians and East Asians enter medicine. Education may have been a value implicit within how the family raises their children. Just like parents instill compassion in their children, many Indians/Asians instill the value of having a strong work ethic. As the child grows up, they would obviously want to pursue a mentally-stimulating professional career - and having been raised in a culture that values hard work, they might be more inclined to pursue professional jobs. This does not signal 'greed' necessarily - but more a desire to pursue a mentally-challenging career where hard work is rewarded.

You are looking at the statistics, and then coming up with an arbitrary reason for why Asians, collectively, are overrepresented in medicine, without evaluating all the potential reasons why this may be the case. This is a useless argument to pursue, and we are seriously running in circles talking about this.

 

[mipp0]

What mipp0 says is all I'm trying to say. I'm a very pragmatic person, who like you, Mr. T, says it like it is. So for you to say that I'm idealistic is far from the truth.

Asians and Indians in general are a people that value hard work and education. Sure, today that might be manifested as encouraging the pursuit of professional degrees, but this value was NEVER rooted in greed for money, power, etc. For example, in Hinduism, the emphasis on education is evident. It's not at all a stretch to think that in many Asian cultures, the values of hard work and gaining an education are ingrained within the minds of the people.

This may play a role in regard to how many Indians and East Asians enter medicine. Education may have been a value implicit within how the family raises their children. Just like parents instill compassion in their children, many Indians/Asians instill the value of having a strong work ethic. As the child grows up, they would obviously want to pursue a mentally-stimulating professional career - and having been raised in a culture that values hard work, they might be more inclined to pursue professional jobs. This does not signal 'greed' necessarily - but more a desire to pursue a mentally-challenging career where hard work is rewarded.

You are looking at the statistics, and then coming up with an arbitrary reason for why Asians, collectively, are overrepresented in medicine, without evaluating all the potential reasons why this may be the case. This is a useless argument to pursue, and we are seriously running in circles talking about this.

Asians value hard work and education over who? Don't all ethnic groups encourage both? You yourself Vercetti are coming up with a "cultural explanation", rife with lurking variables you don't consider. I hope you aren't going down the model minority myth road.

For some families, greed, status, and stability may very well be why a son or daughter is pressured into medicine; for others, the love of science and an ever changing field; for my OR friends, it's the pressure and adrenaline rush; for me, God; my buddy, utilitarian pursuits, etc. We're all Asian Americans, but we are pursuing medicine with different motivations. I'd say we all have a very good idea of what medicine is, having worked in the hospital.

My point is, let's not generalize. To every man, his own. I hope T matures enough to recognize this--he doesn't speak for ANYONE except himself.

 

[IndianVercetti]

mipp0, I'm not generalizing anything. All individuals can work hard, and all individuals can succeed. You are absolutely correct, to every man, his own. I was merely providing one plausible explanation to Mr. T's continued statement that Asians are overrepresented in medical school (a true assertion on his part).

 

[mipp0]

mipp0, I'm not generalizing anything. All individuals can work hard, and all individuals can succeed. You are absolutely correct, to every man, his own. I was merely providing one plausible explanation to Mr. T's continued statement that Asians are overrepresented in medical school (a true assertion on his part).

I guess we're friends then I'm assuming we're both studying for the MCATs, replying to each other at 5 - 6 in the morning...


sleep is for the weak

 

[Amaterasu]

I've been reading this thread and I have to agree with what Mister T said. I'm Asian too (Vietnamese) and I'm going for medicine basically because of the money and job security.

I originally did accounting but that was too boring and didn't pay as well as medicine does.

All of my friends who are Indian and Asian (I go to Buffalo which has A LOT of desis and Chinese people) are basically premed and are in it for the money.

 

[metalgearHMN]

Fantastic. You know that you love medicine before you even entered it. The fact that you want to go into medicine for the "passion" makes you the "exception" (a very naive one) again. Again, like I said to our Indian friend here, get back to me, let's say in 4 years when you're done with medical school?

And just how far along are you in this process to know soooo much about medicine and the intentions of entire races of people? Why do you act like everyone else is less mature or that they're naive, judging from your statements you're the one with a very close-minded view of the world.

Again, there is a simple reason why people are going into medicine --- and I stated beforehand. It's for the money, job security, and status. My source? I can point to a complicated study, but all I need to point to is the fact that Asians and Indians are considered "overrepresented" minorities for the health field. I've never heard this term used in the context of LAW school, or teaching, business, etc. Only in healthcare and the hard sciences and engineering.

You're wrong, with the exception of law. Here's some data from the BLS which shows shows what % of the workforce is Asian for various industries.

http://new.abanet.org/marketresearch/PublicDocuments/cpsaat11.pdf

Main point is that Asians make up:
16 % of Physicians and Surgeons
12 % of Postsecondary Teachers
13 % of Financial Analysts
14 % of Chefs (Didn't see that one coming)

So we are in fact "over-represented" in teaching and business, as well as in healthcare, the hard sciences, engineering, and computer science

If I am proven wrong, then Asians and Indians are just intrinsically more altruistic than black and white people then huh?

I'm sure there are MANY reasons why Asians are over-represented, and yet you boil it down to two polar opposites. Making sweeping, generalized statements is never a good idea.

If this is true, then we should figure out what altruism genes they have so that we can replicate that condition in everyone. Btw, does it have anything to do with the lack of acetaldehyde dehydrogenase by any chance?

You're hilarious!

Yes, yes they do, and it is the de facto reason why they do --- that's just being honest. There's a reason why there is a predominance of Asians and Indians in the sciences particularly the health field compared to other fields. To ignore this fundamental fact is just idiotic and to say so otherwise is just plain naive, ignorant, and dishonest.



I think this indicates enough about yourself. Maybe when you're a little older, and mommy and daddy aren't supporting you any longer, and you work a real job you'll get off of your high horse.

I'm done here ---- arguing with premeds that know next to nothing about nothing is a waste of time.

http://www.medschoolhell.com/2006/09/10/premeds-stfu/

That's unfortunate, you seem to bring out the best in people...

 

[IndianVercetti]

I guess we're friends then I'm assuming we're both studying for the MCATs, replying to each other at 5 - 6 in the morning...


sleep is for the weak

lol hell yes
I woke up at 6:30 here on the east, gotta get the sleep pattern back for the semester, then read a bit, then back on here.

when are you taking the MCAT?

 

[metalgearHMN]

I've been reading this thread and I have to agree with what Mister T said. I'm Asian too (Vietnamese) and I'm going for medicine basically because of the money and job security.

I originally did accounting but that was too boring and didn't pay as well as medicine does.

All of my friends who are Indian and Asian (I go to Buffalo which has A LOT of desis and Chinese people) are basically premed and are in it for the money.

Ok so are Whites, Hispanics and African-Americans NOT in it for the money and job security?

I'm sure they have the same reasons as us!! But why aren't they over-represented? This is a complex issue, and to say that Asian's are over-represented because we go into medicine for the money just doesn't make logical sense. It's not like being in it for the money confers us with a magical ability that the altruistic people lack. There is another reason for us being overrepresented.

 

[Amaterasu]

This is a complex issue, and to say that Asian's are over-represented because we go into medicine for the money just doesn't make logical sense.

Of course it makes perfect logical sense that we go into medicine for the money. I don't mean to stereotype but blacks and hispanics aren't as academically focused as people from Asia are. Our family structure and cultures focus on getting jobs that pay well and carry a lot of respect. We come from countries of economic poverty (my family escaped war growing up in Vietnam and we were refugees coming to America), so that we can make something of ourselves here. So it's a very simple reason, yet very powerful one. The other reasons are secondary or tertiary (like carbon structures OH YEAH!) to the "selfish" ones.

In India, for instance, the very structure of selfishness is existent in the decadent caste system where you have Brahmans entitled to a better life because of what they were born into (versus the lower castes), so I don't really think it's the case that Indians are in it for the discovery of knowledge (like the Vercetti guy was sayiing how Hindus are in it for knowledge). Maybe it's there, but not as important as the $$$ and if you've ever taken basic micro or macroeconomics, you know that what makes the world go round is money.

Anyways, it's pretty easy to know why medical school is competitive. It's not because of the amount of good that premeds want to do (maybe they say that to themselves?), it's because of the money, job security, and status like Mister T said. It's perfectly logical why there is a shortage of primary care physicians and why everyone wants to become a specialist. Primary care physicians get paid squat in relation to specialists. Why don't most premeds become nurses? WHy isn't nursing school, or podiatry school, or optometry, DO school, etc. not as competitive as medical school? My mother's a nurse, and she has better bedside manner than a lot of the doctors! If you really want to make a different in the patient's lives, be a nurse!

I guarantee you that if medical school became a lot less lucrative then you would have far less people going into it. It's simple supply and demand people. People who say otherwise just haven't experienced enough about the real world yet I suppose. Or they're lying.

And I can say that at my school (UBuffalo) all the Asians and Indians I meet are basically premeds of some sort (or engineers or accountants from my old program). All my upper level bio classes are filled with the "overrepresented" minorities. It's kind of ironic really.

I think you're confusing intent of going into medical school though with being a good doctor. Just because a lot of asians are going into it for the money doesn't make them bad doctors. If anything, from my personal experiences, the ones who didn't "make it" through the under level premed classes were the ones who were too idealistic about medicine.

But to each his/her own.

 

[IndianVercetti]

Of course it makes perfect logical sense that we go into medicine for the money. I don't mean to stereotype but blacks and hispanics aren't as academically focused as people from Asia are. Our family structure and cultures focus on getting jobs that pay well and carry a lot of respect. We come from countries of economic poverty (my family escaped war growing up in Vietnam and we were refugees coming to America), so that we can make something of ourselves here. So it's a very simple reason, yet very powerful one. The other reasons are secondary or tertiary (like carbon structures OH YEAH!) to the "selfish" ones.

This is a very bold and dangerous statement you are making. Like I said, the over-representation of Asians is a complex issue, you can't start categorizing one group as being more motivated than another without appearing linear-minded. I tried to use a cultural explanation, but in retrospect, that thought process itself is flawed.

There are lazy Asians, and there are hard-working Asians. There are lazy African-Americans, and there are hard-working African-Americans. There are lazy Hispanics, and there are hard-working Hispanics.

edit: But honestly, this discussion isn't accomplishing anything other than getting everyone riled up over nothing. Let's all deal with this MCAT, and then we can discuss these issues for hours lol

 

[Amaterasu]

This is a very bold and dangerous statement you are making. Like I said, the over-representation of Asians is a complex issue, you can't start categorizing one group as being more motivated than another without appearing linear-minded. I tried to use a cultural explanation, but in retrospect, that thought process itself is flawed.

There are lazy Asians, and there are hard-working Asians. There are lazy African-Americans, and there are hard-working African-Americans. There are lazy Hispanics, and there are hard-working Hispanics.

Ok, so if there are lazy Asians and hard working Asians etc. then how come there are more Asians and Indians in medical school than blacks or hispanics even though there are far more blacks and hispanics in this country? Why are we considered "overrepresented" and what's leading to that consistent succcess? And why are there so many ethnic Jews who go into law/banking/medicine/the most prestigious professions as well? What is tied with prestige? Money.

Basically we have affirmative action policies for blacks and hispanics because they are lagging behind severely against the Asians and Indians (and Jews to a lesser extent because they're "Caucasian" really).


So again, itt's because of money. Money is what impels people to do things. It's what drives people to go through the B.S. of memorizing SN2 reactions and going through 8+ years of mental torture. Of course you can say that you love medicine, but if you haven't worked a full time job like Mister T said, and you haven't been in medical school, then how can you know you'll like it then? A lot of premeds with noble intentions ended up realizing in medical school that it was NOT what they expected it to be and if they could do it again they would not have.

And there's nothing wrong with going into medicine or anything really for money. It seems that fundamental gist of what you seem to be making is that because people go in for selfish reasons that it's a bad thing. If that was the case, then communism and socialism would be a much better system (one only needs to look at the defunct Soviet Union and even China which has opened its markets for investing over the past decade), but what we've found is that capitalism and private enterprise tends to create the most economical efficiency and productivity in an economy which basically translates into a better quality of life for everyone, and that's what counts, no?

I have personally experienced, not just from my family (my mother would telll me to go into medicine is an honorable and noble thing to do from an early age as it was her dream and her mother's etc) the push to go into medicine, but almost every premed that was Asian or Indian was going into it for the very same reasons.

Of course, there are some who are not, but they're definitely the exception to the rule.

Btw, I read the medical school forum and residency forum here on SDN a lot, and its funny how a lot of the students always discuss the "ROAD" specialties" and how desperate they are to get into them, and they are always freaking out about ObamaCare health care cuts and how much they would lose from them. What does that show you? And if you don't believe me you need to only pay attention to how the AMA and doctors are reacting to ObamaCare (it's going to be the end of the world apparently)

People's opinions seem to change drastically once they are in medical school as everyone in the end cares about their personal BOTTOM LINE.

But yeah, read up on supply and demand, that's all it is really. The rest is just misguided idealism, inexperience, and ignorance.

We're better off not worrying about what reasons people are going into medicine, but for the sake of argument, they're not sticking through with them because people love being in the OP room for 80-100 hours a week for minimum wage, they know that there is a light at the end of the tunnel; a very bright light, mind you.

 

[metalgearHMN]

Ok, so if there are lazy Asians and hard working Asians etc. then how come there are more Asians and Indians in medical school than blacks or hispanics even though there are far more blacks and hispanics in this country? Why are we considered "overrepresented" and what's leading to that consistent succcess? And why are there so many ethnic Jews who go into law/banking/medicine/the most prestigious professions as well? What is tied with prestige? Money.

Basically we have affirmative action policies for blacks and hispanics because they are lagging behind severely against the Asians and Indians (and Jews to a lesser extent because they're "Caucasian" really).


So again, itt's because of money. Money is what impels people to do things. It's what drives people to go through the B.S. of memorizing SN2 reactions and going through 8+ years of mental torture. Of course you can say that you love medicine, but if you haven't worked a full time job like Mister T said, and you haven't been in medical school, then how can you know you'll like it then? A lot of premeds with noble intentions ended up realizing in medical school that it was NOT what they expected it to be and if they could do it again they would not have.

And there's nothing wrong with going into medicine or anything really for money. It seems that fundamental gist of what you seem to be making is that because people go in for selfish reasons that it's a bad thing. If that was the case, then communism and socialism would be a much better system (one only needs to look at the defunct Soviet Union and even China which has opened its markets for investing over the past decade), but what we've found is that capitalism and private enterprise tends to create the most economical efficiency and productivity in an economy which basically translates into a better quality of life for everyone, and that's what counts, no?

I have personally experienced, not just from my family (my mother would telll me to go into medicine is an honorable and noble thing to do from an early age as it was her dream and her mother's etc) the push to go into medicine, but almost every premed that was Asian or Indian was going into it for the very same reasons.

Of course, there are some who are not, but they're definitely the exception to the rule.

Btw, I read the medical school forum and residency forum here on SDN a lot, and its funny how a lot of the students always discuss the "ROAD" specialties" and how desperate they are to get into them, and they are always freaking out about ObamaCare health care cuts and how much they would lose from them. What does that show you? And if you don't believe me you need to only pay attention to how the AMA and doctors are reacting to ObamaCare (it's going to be the end of the world apparently)

People's opinions seem to change drastically once they are in medical school as everyone in the end cares about their personal BOTTOM LINE.

But yeah, read up on supply and demand, that's all it is really. The rest is just misguided idealism, inexperience, and ignorance.

We're better off not worrying about what reasons people are going into medicine, but for the sake of argument, they're not sticking through with them because people love being in the OP room for 80-100 hours a week for minimum wage, they know that there is a light at the end of the tunnel; a very bright light, mind you.

OK, if we accept your premise that Asians go into medicine for the money, then why do Blacks and Hispanics go into medicine? For the money as well right? Therefore, how can we attribute Asian overrepresentation to a difference in motivation when we all have the same motivation? What I'm trying to say is there is something else at play here which is causing Asians to be overrepresented

 

[Amaterasu]

OK, if we accept your premise that Asians go into medicine for the money, then why do Blacks and Hispanics go into medicine? For the money as well right? Therefore, how can we attribute Asian overrepresentation to a difference in motivation when we all have the same motivation? What I'm trying to say is there is something else at play here which is causing Asians to be overrepresented

Everyone goes into it for the money, but the reason tends to be clearer as to why asians and indians go into it.

Your fundamental notion that we all have the same motivation is wrong.

From an early age, Asians/Indians put a strong emphasis on education. This is an attribute of the environment (I can't say anything about genetics because it's all circumstantial at best) where Asian/Indian families are very focused on children's success and on becoming professionals in life.

Hispanics and blacks are by far, not. They don't generally actively monitor their kids, they don't perform as well in schools, etc. etc, and I don't want to get into the reasons as to why that happens, but we can generally say that the motivation isn't as apparent as it should, because if the motivation was the same, then they really should be represented higher in the professions, but this is not the case.

So it's either lack of motivation (environmental) or it's a lack in ability for doing well in school. Considering that many URMs have far lower GPAs and MCAT scores and still get into competitive medical schools, I'm going to say it's the former.

too long didn't read: the reason why Asians are overrepresented is because they posses the inherent skills, for whatever reasons, needed for college to do well and to get into medical school. Nobody ever said in this thread that Asians/Indians don't have what it take to get into medical school, but the chief issue is why they are overrepresented. It's because we have the brain power/motivation/whatever to get into it in the first place. We don't as many barriers in getting in because strong work ethic and a higher priority on grades is placed over dating, sports, etc. for very good reason.

 

[IndianVercetti]

This thread is great, I like how we have a bunch of Asian/Indian groupies now on the MCAT forum. lol

 

[Mister T]

 

[IndianVercetti]

Let there be peace.

 

[metalgearHMN]

Let there be peace.

Nice

 

[Kalyx]

So it's either lack of motivation (environmental) or it's a lack in ability for doing well in school. Considering that many URMs have far lower GPAs and MCAT scores and still get into competitive medical schools, I'm going to say it's the former.

We can't underestimate the effects of social stigma and discrimination. Plenty of studies have shown how easily implicit attitudes are developed toward different minority groups that lead us to have lower expectations, disdain, and irrational fear of them, for instance.

From day 1, Blacks, Hispanics, Native Americans, and other racial minorities get the message: you are not as talented as your White peers. You are not as smart, not as good-looking, will not be as successful, and will not be valued as much. Sexual and religious minorities often receive the same negative messages. Heterosexual Whites hear these messages about minorities and adopt them into their own thinking subconsciously.

There is *plenty* of research documenting the mental harms of this kind of stereotyping. A Black person from a financially comfortable background with a good GPA has struggled and triumphed in ways that a White person has not. That's not to say that the White person has had an easy life... certainly we all have our personal hardships. But racial, sexual and religious minorities face constant stigma and are at higher risk for poor mental health as a result (among other health problems).

Perhaps there are more East and South Asians in the health fields because they've been fed "positive stereotypes" of their ethnic groups. Some have surfaced in this discussion: Indians and East Asians are more motivated, their families value education more, etc.

So we see that underrepresented minorities (i.e. Blacks, Hispanics, etc.) receive more negative messages from society compared to East and South Asians.


With all of that said, certainly many parents in poor communities DO fall short in motivating their children and encouraging ongoing education (something that new Teach For America instructors often struggle with). East Asian and South Asian immigrants enter the country and typically do NOT assimilate into those kinds of poor communities, so they are more likely to encourage their children's education with a vision of success. Also, they may have more hope in general. A poor family may not appear as supportive of a child's academic aspirations because they're skeptical that the child will break the barriers of institutionalized racism and find the right kinds of academic mentors.


~Kalyx

 

[IndianVercetti]

Here's something to consider - Indian/Asian-Americans are underrepresented in American professional sports. The few Asians in major league baseball are from the Japanese leagues, or other Asian leagues, and aren't Asian-Americans themselves. Why is this?

But in response to you Kalyx, I think you bring up many good points - I know this may seem controversial, but many of the African American and Hispanic college students (once again, I'm not generalizing) in our generation are the first in their family to attend college. Like Kalyx said, it's reasonable to think the parents of Asian students are educated themselves, and endured the rigorous education systems in Asian countries, and thus instilled this in their children while raising them.

 

[mipp0]

Everyone goes into it for the money, but the reason tends to be clearer as to why asians and indians go into it.

Your fundamental notion that we all have the same motivation is wrong.

From an early age, Asians/Indians put a strong emphasis on education. This is an attribute of the environment (I can't say anything about genetics because it's all circumstantial at best) where Asian/Indian families are very focused on children's success and on becoming professionals in life.

Hispanics and blacks are by far, not. They don't generally actively monitor their kids, they don't perform as well in schools, etc. etc, and I don't want to get into the reasons as to why that happens, but we can generally say that the motivation isn't as apparent as it should, because if the motivation was the same, then they really should be represented higher in the professions, but this is not the case.

So it's either lack of motivation (environmental) or it's a lack in ability for doing well in school. Considering that many URMs have far lower GPAs and MCAT scores and still get into competitive medical schools, I'm going to say it's the former.

too long didn't read: the reason why Asians are overrepresented is because they posses the inherent skills, for whatever reasons, needed for college to do well and to get into medical school. Nobody ever said in this thread that Asians/Indians don't have what it take to get into medical school, but the chief issue is why they are overrepresented. It's because we have the brain power/motivation/whatever to get into it in the first place. We don't as many barriers in getting in because strong work ethic and a higher priority on grades is placed over dating, sports, etc. for very good reason.

LOL Your racism is showing.


Amaterasu, your logic is horribly flawed. Your experiences are your own, and you don't speak for me (Asian American) or my friends. If you or your family want you to go to medicine for the money, good for you.

As for me, my family and I am happy to know that I am going into medicine for the patients and mission work. Again, you're way off here. Please don't use the idea of "inherent" skills to prove your ridiculous points.

And Vercetti, you totally drop the ball here again by going back to that kind of logic. Ask yourself how much societal racism is at play here? Jeremy Lin is a perfect example of breaking out of the stereotype. Heard of him? There are articles on the amount of racism he endures per basketball game, because of what? Because he's Asian American in a predominantly non-Asian sport. There is a huge mental and emotional toll there.

What about articles on blacks and Hispanics with a love for learning? Their friends and peers dissuade them from pursuing it whole heartedly. They are stigmatized as "too Asian" or "too white".

 

[mipp0]

We can't underestimate the effects of social stigma and discrimination. Plenty of studies have shown how easily implicit attitudes are developed toward different minority groups that lead us to have lower expectations, disdain, and irrational fear of them, for instance.

From day 1, Blacks, Hispanics, Native Americans, and other racial minorities get the message: you are not as talented as your White peers. You are not as smart, not as good-looking, will not be as successful, and will not be valued as much. Sexual and religious minorities often receive the same negative messages. Heterosexual Whites hear these messages about minorities and adopt them into their own thinking subconsciously.

There is *plenty* of research documenting the mental harms of this kind of stereotyping. A Black person from a financially comfortable background with a good GPA has struggled and triumphed in ways that a White person has not. That's not to say that the White person has had an easy life... certainly we all have our personal hardships. But racial, sexual and religious minorities face constant stigma and are at higher risk for poor mental health as a result (among other health problems).

Perhaps there are more East and South Asians in the health fields because they've been fed "positive stereotypes" of their ethnic groups. Some have surfaced in this discussion: Indians and East Asians are more motivated, their families value education more, etc.

So we see that underrepresented minorities (i.e. Blacks, Hispanics, etc.) receive more negative messages from society compared to East and South Asians.


With all of that said, certainly many parents in poor communities DO fall short in motivating their children and encouraging ongoing education (something that new Teach For America instructors often struggle with). East Asian and South Asian immigrants enter the country and typically do NOT assimilate into those kinds of poor communities, so they are more likely to encourage their children's education with a vision of success. Also, they may have more hope in general. A poor family may not appear as supportive of a child's academic aspirations because they're skeptical that the child will break the barriers of institutionalized racism and find the right kinds of academic mentors.


~Kalyx

You bring some great points here Kalyx. But it's also important to mention the triumph of East Asians, whites, and other Asian groups in environments where they are being racially targeted by blacks and Hispanics. Racism is multi-directional, and many times, this is overlooked (LizzyM does this for example, read my past comments).

For example, very recently, 30 Asian immigrant children were brutally targeted and assaulted by majority black students in South Philadelphia (http://www.philly.com/philly/news/b...ers_demand_end_to_Phila__school_violence.html)

So racism works both ways. The black staff and security even encouraged the violence.

That's why I've mentioned that it's imperative medical school adcomms look at the issue from a socioeconomic lens and delve into applicant backgrounds individually, rather than generalizing lived experiences themselves.

 

[Kalyx]

You bring some great points here Kalyx. But it's also important to mention the triumph of East Asians, whites, and other Asian groups in environments where they are being racially targeted by blacks and Hispanics. Racism is multi-directional, and many times, this is overlooked (LizzyM does this for example, read my past comments).

For example, very recently, 30 Asian immigrant children were brutally targeted and assaulted by majority black students in South Philadelphia (http://www.philly.com/philly/news/b...ers_demand_end_to_Phila__school_violence.html)

So racism works both ways. The black staff and security even encouraged the violence.

That's why I've mentioned that it's imperative medical school adcomms look at the issue from a socioeconomic lens and delve into applicant backgrounds individually, rather than generalizing lived experiences themselves.

This is a very good point, and my own vacillating opinions on "affirmative action" at the level of professional school tend to align most often with your own.


~Kalyx

 

[ksmi117]

Whoa. This thread is too far off track. Let's get back on topic now. Please and thank you.

For those of you who don't recall the original intention of this thread here is the OP:

Do you guys set a time limit or maybe lecture limit? For example, do you study for 30 minutes, then take a 10 minute break, or do you take a break after you've finished a section of a book or topic or something? Or do you have no schedule and just take a break whenever for as long as necessary?

 

[IndianVercetti]

Someone start a thread about Asian-American issues in medicine in the Pre-Allo forum so we can discuss these issues ad nauseam lol