How Do You Tell If a Location Could Support Another Cash-Only Psychiatrist?

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

AD04

Full Member
10+ Year Member
Joined
Dec 27, 2011
Messages
610
Reaction score
706
One of my future goals is to establish a cash-based medication-oriented practice (with a bit of supportive therapy sprinkled on top).

The place I am currently considering already has a couple cash-only psychiatrists. How do you tell if there is room for another one? How do you tell if a location is saturated with psychiatrists?

Members don't see this ad.
 
One of my future goals is to establish a cash-based medication-oriented practice (with a bit of supportive therapy sprinkled on top).

The place I am currently considering already has a couple cash-only psychiatrists. How do you tell if there is room for another one? How do you tell if a location is saturated with psychiatrists?

Call their offices and determine how long it takes to be seen yourself. 2 month wait and they are essentially full. 2 weeks or less and they are still actively seeking out many patients. Anything in between is still competition, but do you have something unique to offer like child boarded, etc?
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Call their offices and determine how long it takes to be seen yourself. 2 month wait and they are essentially full. 2 weeks or less and they are still actively seeking out many patients. Anything in between is still competition, but do you have something unique to offer like child boarded, etc?

Calling the office is an excellent suggestion.

My initial plan is to grow the practice slowly while keeping a main gig. Start with 1 day a week, open at night and weekends so people don't have to skip school or work. Not many psychiatrists are willing to do that. And if there is a month or longer wait for the other psychiatrists, I offer instant availability (until my practice starts getting full). I was hoping my reputation grows over the years and the other psychiatrists retiring / slowing down later on would help.

Regarding ways to differentiate myself -- maybe TMS or maybe open an integrative psychiatric practice. Or I could specialize in adult ADHD. There's always that.

Overall, I'm not too worried about how to differentiate myself. I'll find something once I know the market better. The main goal is to learn the ins and outs of the business side of medicine. If the cost of keeping an unprofitable cash practice is low, over time it'll work.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
It's not. They're both drug dealers.

Fair enough. I just get the feeling that "adult ADHD" gets so much more flak. In reality, I agree, they are one in the same.
 
Calling the office is an excellent suggestion.

My initial plan is to grow the practice slowly while keeping a main gig. Start with 1 day a week, open at night and weekends so people don't have to skip school or work. Not many psychiatrists are willing to do that. And if there is a month or longer wait for the other psychiatrists, I offer instant availability (until my practice starts getting full). I was hoping my reputation grows over the years and the other psychiatrists retiring / slowing down later on would help.

Regarding ways to differentiate myself -- maybe TMS or maybe open an integrative psychiatric practice. Or I could specialize in adult ADHD. There's always that.

Overall, I'm not too worried about how to differentiate myself. I'll find something once I know the market better. The main goal is to learn the ins and outs of the business side of medicine. If the cost of keeping an unprofitable cash practice is low, over time it'll work.

You could at least pretend that you want to help people with your cash practice good lord....already jumping to TMS and adult ADHD.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
Members don't see this ad :)
These comments ... so hurtful.

giphy.gif
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
These comments ... so hurtful

lol. while i think calling might be useful as an exercise, it doesn't necessarily mean too much. how "full" you are can be very arbitrary and change all the time in a small practice setting. Like for example i'm pretty much full, but this week I'm taking a random intake for no apparent reason... I think calling is more useful to assess for the fee the market might be willing to bear.

You can't really tell until you start marketing yourself, and if you can't get patients it's almost never the fault of the market but the fault of the marketer. In my opinion, the vast majority of urban markets in the US are having a shortage of cash MDs and different cash psychiatrists are different products...IMHO a lot of times a market can be *created* if you know where to look. for example, everyone's gushing over doing cash psychopharm, but in my opinion a lot of wealthy neighborhoods/suburbs in 2nd tier cities that are wealthy (i.e. think Atlanta, Charlotte, Denver etc) are CRAVING for high end psychotherapy delivered by an MD. A LOT of low quality therapists--some high quality therapists but they are probably hard to find, and a lot of good quality group MD practices doing decent psychopharm, but very few combined people.

For example, i *bet* you if you say with adult ADHD, I *don't* use meds (commonly), but everyone gets evidence based CBT delivered by a board certified MD, you'll get a lot more people who are willing to pay cash. These are issues you should think through carefully.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
lol. while i think calling might be useful as an exercise, it doesn't necessarily mean too much. how "full" you are can be very arbitrary and change all the time in a small practice setting. Like for example i'm pretty much full, but this week I'm taking a random intake for no apparent reason... I think calling is more useful to assess for the fee the market might be willing to bear.

You can't really tell until you start marketing yourself, and if you can't get patients it's almost never the fault of the market but the fault of the marketer. In my opinion, the vast majority of urban markets in the US are having a shortage of cash MDs and different cash psychiatrists are different products...IMHO a lot of times a market can be *created* if you know where to look. for example, everyone's gushing over doing cash psychopharm, but in my opinion a lot of wealthy neighborhoods/suburbs in 2nd tier cities that are wealthy (i.e. think Atlanta, Charlotte, Denver etc) are CRAVING for high end psychotherapy delivered by an MD. A LOT of low quality therapists--some high quality therapists but they are probably hard to find, and a lot of good quality group MD practices doing decent psychopharm, but very few combined people.

For example, i *bet* you if you say with adult ADHD, I *don't* use meds (commonly), but everyone gets evidence based CBT delivered by a board certified MD, you'll get a lot more people who are willing to pay cash. These are issues you should think through carefully.
For adult adhd, people just want drugs
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 users
What’s the difference between the guy selling heroin and the guy selling cocaine?

To be fair to psychiatrists, hopefully they'd quit prescribing if there was evidence of serious problems like a psychotic break, health or legal troubles that suggest serious addiction etc. etc. Most street drug dealers couldn't care less. Not to mention that physicians don't cut their products with other substances to make more money off of them at the cost of the buyer's health. Also physicians will limit the amount the give you, where-as street dealers will give you as much as you can pay for.

So, there are certainly differences between physicians who prescribe controlled substances and street dealers. Whether you think they're both unethical or not, one is certainly more ethical than the other, even if in some cases it's only because there are personal risks like malpractice and losing your license.
 
Fair enough. I just get the feeling that "adult ADHD" gets so much more flak. In reality, I agree, they are one in the same.
The phrase is "one and the same." But I can think of a couple of reasons "adult ADHD" gets more flak:

First, and I can only speak for myself, we got experience from day 1 in residency dealing with people seeking benzos, and had it drilled into us to be wary of prescribing them, whereas "adult ADHD" was something we got absolutely zero experience with, training in, or exposure to. I've said many times before how blindsided I was by this when I started an outpatient job in the private world--the first time I saw a 35-year-old wanting to be on stimulants I was inwardly doing a double-take and and thinking "wait a minute, it says right here your birth year is 1981, are you in 4th grade?" Then I got another, and another, and another... So I'm fully aware that no one needs to be on Xanax 2 mg TID in order to survive, and when I'm in the mood to put my foot down, can tell people in no uncertain terms that that simply isn't indicated. But when someone tells me they're totally incapable of functioning without Adderall, part of me is thinking "well, maybe that's true. How should I know?" It doesn't make it any easier when people essentially threaten to decompensate if you don't prescribe it, or even make comments that get you worrying about liability (e.g., subtly implying that if you don't prescribe a stimulant they're going to get fired from their job, and it'll be your fault.)

Second, in my experience, most benzo-seekers who are adamant about "needing" them are already addicted and just can't stand the slightest withdrawal symptoms, and if you keep chipping away at them, you can at least get them to accept reducing by 0.25 mg daily every month and taper down extremely slowly. With stimulants, you get more people who tried the drug literally one time and now are convinced they can't live without it. Apparently, everyone who ever tries a stimulant thinks it's the best thing ever. Seriously, I never want to try a stim, because it's like some bad Star Trek episode where a mind control virus is taking over everyone's brain, turning them into automatons whose only function is to spread the virus to more people. People pop one Adderall pill they got from some friend one time, and feel it was like an epiphany--"this is what it's like to finally be alive! Suddenly, I new what I'd been missing my whole life! When I'm on these meds, I can finally be the person I was meant to be for all those years!" And they just will not take no for an answer.

Also, to address the drug dealer analogy, I think another difference is that while street drug users might lack the insight to realize if and when they're addicted, they're at least aware they're using drugs for recreational purposes. I honestly don't think most of our benzo- or stim-seeking patients believe they are just taking these drugs because they like the way they make them feel. In their minds, they have an illness, and that illness gives them symptoms, and these drugs are medicines, and when they take these medicines, they experience relief of symptoms. So, if you want to run a pill mill (not that I advocate that at all,) you do have some cover. You're a doctor prescribing medicines to treat an illness! Of course, this only makes it all the more difficult to convince people they don't need these drugs, and to prescribe appropriately.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
For adult adhd, people just want drugs

This has not been my experience at all. Perhaps our patient populations are just different — have you actually run a cash practice or do you just imagine this is what running a cash practice is like??

I actually find that people who pay cash more frequently actively resist meds for a variety of reasons. Think about it, if someone has money and can pay someone to buy high quality powder cocaine and deliver them to him/her, and that’s the only thing they want, why WOULD they spend 5x more see an MD to get second rate drugs in a very unreliable way? Adderall XR gets you barely a high, if any.

5 min visit to get a script of a controlled substance is the definition of downmarket psychiatry. No, wealthy people don’t want this. Try again.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
This has not been my experience at all. Perhaps our patient populations are just different — have you actually run a cash practice or do you just imagine this is what running a cash practice is like??

I actually find that people who pay cash more frequently actively resist meds for a variety of reasons. Think about it, if someone has money and can pay someone to buy high quality powder cocaine and deliver them to him/her, and that’s the only thing they want, why WOULD they spend 5x more see an MD to get second rate drugs in a very unreliable way? Adderall XR gets you barely a high, if any.

5 min visit to get a script of a controlled substance is the definition of downmarket psychiatry. No, wealthy people don’t want this. Try again.
I have cash pp and have so for many years. These seekers do come and leave quickly
And all of those drugs are abuseable
Erowid
Wealthy patients try to push these stims for their kids.
 
Last edited:
Adult ADHD does exist.

It's just that with ADHD it's harder to figure these cases out cause 1-the usual treatment can be abused, 2-the diagnosis gives reason for people to malinger for that dx (e.g. they got kicked out of school) and 3-Many of the symptoms of ADHD are very subjective.

I've had plenty of patients with ADHD take Wellbutrin and their anxiety goes down, sleep better on coffee, and people where they were not even thinking of ADHD and an ADHD med calmed their sx down. I've never seen this before until a few years ago but I've seen people with panic attacks and Wellbutrin got rid of them if the person had ADHD criteria.

I mentioned this years back but I had a patient with such severe ADHD that he looked manic. His mother was a severe alcoholic and drank often while pregnant with the guy. What made me think it was ADHD was cause when we gave anything that blocked D2 he got way worse and in correlation with the D2 blocking strength. E.g. Haldol made him way way worse. Also antipsychotics with more alpha-blockage calmed him down. Lithium offered no benefit. Also he was always hyper-agitated. It didn't come in episodes. ADHD treatments calmed him down completely. At one point he didn't sleep for about 1 weeks straight on my unit even after being on Thorazine 100 mg IM, Haldol 30 mg IM (in one day) and Lorazepam 3 mg in one day.

A problem is where residents are trained the problems aren't usually ADHD. They're much more severe illnesses like schizophrenia. Further in the patient population typically where residencies are stimulants are almost always a no-no. Even in poorer areas if the person truly has ADHD that person could sell their meds and is in a situation where they need to do so just to get by making prescribing stimulants more of a no-no.

Wellbutrin, Strattera, alpha blockers can be used. There is emerging data that Naltrexone could treat ADHD and I do have a patient who swears that treats their ADHD (it raises Dopamine in the brain plus is has an anti-inflammatory effect). It's currently being studied.
A Double-Blind Comparison of Naltrexone and Placebo in Adults With Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder - Full Text View - ClinicalTrials.gov
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: 4 users
Adult ADHD does exist.

It's just that with ADHD it's harder to figure these cases out cause 1-the usual treatment can be abused, 2-the diagnosis gives reason for people to malinger for that dx (e.g. they got kicked out of school) and 3-Many of the symptoms of ADHD are very subjective.
Dont forget "i took my friends adderall and it helped so i have add and need adderall"
I've had plenty of patients with ADHD take Wellbutrin and their anxiety goes down, sleep better on coffee, and people where they were not even thinking of ADHD and an ADHD med calmed their sx down. I've never seen this before until a few years ago but I've seen people with panic attacks and Wellbutrin got rid of them if the person had ADHD criteria.

I mentioned this years back but I had a patient with such severe ADHD that he looked manic. His mother was a severe alcoholic and drank often while pregnant with the guy. What made me think it was ADHD was cause when we gave anything that blocked D2 he got way worse and in correlation with the D2 blocking strength. E.g. Haldol made him way way worse. Also antipsychotics with more alpha-blockage calmed him down. Lithium offered no benefit. Also he was always hyper-agitated. It didn't come in episodes. ADHD treatments calmed him down completely. At one point he didn't sleep for about 1 weeks straight on my unit even after being on Thorazine 100 mg IM, Haldol 30 mg IM (in one day) and Lorazepam 3 mg in one day.

A problem is where residents are trained the problems aren't usually ADHD. They're much more severe illnesses like schizophrenia. Further in the patient population typically where residencies are stimulants are almost always a no-no. Even in poorer areas if the person truly has ADHD that person could sell their meds and is in a situation where they need to do so just to get by making prescribing stimulants more of a no-no.

Wellbutrin, Strattera, alpha blockers can be used. There is emerging data that Naltrexone could treat ADHD and I do have a patient who swears that treats their ADHD (it raises Dopamine in the brain plus is has an anti-inflammatory effect). It's currently being studied.
A Double-Blind Comparison of Naltrexone and Placebo in Adults With Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder - Full Text View - ClinicalTrials.gov

The seekers dont want the nonstim meds or have numerous "side effects" on day two with them
And many patients use mj and then claim they have adhd
 
Last edited:
For adult adhd, people just want drugs
Not all by a long shot. They want to function. I have ADHD, cant tolerate a stimulant, makes my anxiety overwhelming, NE reuptake inhibitors and I don't do well and I tried Tenex and wow orthostatic hypotension. I cant take anything, but wish I could. My ADHD patients have been diagnosed since childhood 95% of the time.
 
Wellbutrin, Strattera, alpha blockers can be used. There is emerging data that Naltrexone could treat ADHD and I do have a patient who swears that treats their ADHD (it raises Dopamine in the brain plus is has an anti-inflammatory effect). It's currently being studied.
A Double-Blind Comparison of Naltrexone and Placebo in Adults With Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder - Full Text View - ClinicalTrials.gov

The seekers dont want the nonstim meds or have numerous "side effects" on day two with them
And many patients use mj and then claim they have adhd
Yup. I have never had a single case of being able to placate someone with Wellbutrin or Strattera. With Wellbutrin, they will always just say it didn't work. With Strattera, 98% of people will call in 3 days after the appointment saying they went to the pharmacy to pick it up and it was $150 and they can't afford that. I have had exactly two cases of people who actually took the Strattera I prescribed. One was a woman with a longstanding history of ADHD since childhood, who had taken Strattera in the past and felt it worked OK but it made her fatigued, so she had gotten back on a stimulant by the time she came to see me. Then she started getting Raynaud's in her fingers so she wanted to try being off a stimulant and back on Strattera again. So I prescribed the Strattera and she took it for a couple of months, but decided it just didn't work well enough and wanted to go back on a stimulant. The other is another one of these people who don't really meet the DSM criteria for ADHD (no diagnosis before the age of 12, symptoms in only 1 setting--work--despite getting a promotion at work) but just keeps coming back to me claiming an inability to concentrate. She did take Strattera for a couple of months but then discontinued, saying it wasn't working.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1 user
Futuredo, you are talking about your experiences and I am talking about mine. The majority of people coming to me are as adults with no prior dx. I talk to their parents and the parents do not endorse the symptoms from childhood.

The wealthy parents I see know their kids are abusing adderall and want me to prescribe it as buying it from friends is costly. I say no.
 
Top