How do you think med schools should determine need based aid?

[gman33]

I've been thinking about how med schools determine need based aid, and I'm not sure it makes a lot of sense to me. Unlike a lot of other professional and graduate schools, virtually anyone who graduates from a US med school will have a job with a six figure income (post residency). That being the case, graduates will be in a fairly similar position to repay debt accumulated in med school.

Now if we all end up in a similar position, why does it matter what our financial background looks like coming in? I could see if you had a source of income (like parents), that could pay for everything, but that only applies to a few. Most of us are in the same boat. No outside money and we have to get loans for everything.

If we are all about the same, why don't schools just divide up all the need based scholarship money equally and just lower tuition? By only giving money to some individuals, it's like the students who don't get anything are really supplementing other's tuition. Instead of giving half the students a $10k scholarship, why not just lower everyone's tuition by $5k?

I just wanted to get a dialogue going and see what other people think.

BTW - I'm not some bitter guy who is just mad about not getting any money. Just not sure the system makes sense to me.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Segolene]

Unlike a lot of other professional and graduate schools, virtually anyone who graduates from a US med school will have a job with a six figure income (post residency). That being the case, graduates will be in a fairly similar position to repay debt accumulated in med school.

Now if we all end up in a similar position, why does it matter what our financial background looks like coming in? I could see if you had a source of income (like parents), that could pay for everything, but that only applies to a few. Most of us are in the same boat. No outside money and we have to get loans for everything.

Fair question, and there may be a persuasive answer. Would be nice to hear from a financial aid administrator on this one.

 

[se2131]

The theory is that if a student with rich parents falls into financial troubles, then they will at least have somebody who may be able to bail them out.

Or that students with rich parents will eventually get a decent-sized inheritance.

I'm with you though, it's not a great system

 

[yadayadadude]

If we all end up in a similar position, why does it matter what our financial background looks like coming in? I could see if you had a source of income (like parents) that could pay for everything, but that only applies to a few. Most of us are in the same boat. No outside money and we have to get loans for everything.

I actually think the financial situations of incoming medical students tend to be pretty diverse: for traditional students, lots of them have parental assistance and some accept military/service scholarships; for non-trads, it's not uncommon to have substantial savings or a working spouse. I don't think "most" medical students are in the same boat.

Havings said that, I do have an (fantasy) idea for how to overhaul medical school financial aid ... most US medical schools have an enormous alumni network relative to the number of current medical students. I wonder if it wouldn't be possible for working alums to each make a small donation to offset tuition for current students. It might be possible for say, 20 alums to pay for each current student. Personally, I'd rather donate a couple K each year in the form of a (tax deductible) scholarship once I'm an attending than pay off a monstrous student loan.

 

[lilnoelle]

My situation stinks. I'm super close to qualifying for need based aid. If they looked at my parents income when I lived with them, or if they looked at my income (meaning my husband's income - especially considering we have two kids), I'd qualify. If my parents claimed me on their taxes, then I'd qualify. But because my parents don't claim me on their taxes, they make about $3k more than what they would have to for me to qualify.

Yeah, theres no chance my parents will help me financially.

AND, even though I live only 14 miles from the school, I'm an out of state student and have to pay out of state tuition.

My loans are going to be around $300K when I graduate from med school.

 

[gman33]

I actually think the financial situations of incoming medical students tend to be pretty diverse: for traditional students, lots of them have parental assistance and some accept military/service scholarships; for non-trads, it's not uncommon to have substantial savings or a working spouse. I don't think "most" medical students are in the same boat.

People do come from diverse backgrounds, but I would venture to say that the majority of students pay for the bulk of their education via loans.

As for non-trads of which I am one, I don't think the system is setup to determine their need for aid. While some may have money saved up, you also need to look at their future earning potential and the ability to repay loans. A 40 year old may have $100k in savings, but they also have a much greater need for retirement savings after med school. Now I guess the question is whether we want to subsidize medical education for individuals who will be practicing for a shorter period of time. My thinking is that these older students may have a greater need for assistance than a younger student who may have less money in the present.

Another thing that seems weird is looking at parental income for older students. It's been 15 years since I've gotten any money from my parents and they are getting ready to retire. The last thing they have any money for is paying for my school.

I don't expect the system to change. I'd just rather see the available money go more towards lowering the costs for all students. Regardless of the financial situation coming in, most physicians will be in a position to repay their loans (especially if the burden was a little less).

 

[alwaysaangel]

I've been thinking about how med schools determine need based aid, and I'm not sure it makes a lot of sense to me. Unlike a lot of other professional and graduate schools, virtually anyone who graduates from a US med school will have a job with a six figure income (post residency). That being the case, graduates will be in a fairly similar position to repay debt accumulated in med school.

Now if we all end up in a similar position, why does it matter what our financial background looks like coming in? I could see if you had a source of income (like parents), that could pay for everything, but that only applies to a few. Most of us are in the same boat. No outside money and we have to get loans for everything.

If we are all about the same, why don't schools just divide up all the need based scholarship money equally and just lower tuition? By only giving money to some individuals, it's like the students who don't get anything are really supplementing other's tuition. Instead of giving half the students a $10k scholarship, why not just lower everyone's tuition by $5k?

I just wanted to get a dialogue going and see what other people think.

BTW - I'm not some bitter guy who is just mad about not getting any money. Just not sure the system makes sense to me.

I think the system is about as good as it can get. Many schools have less money to give out than you think. About 1/3 of my class gets 5k/year. If that were split among the whole class to lower tuition it would hardly be noticable.

Also, everyone in med school is definitely not in the same boat. To illustrate let me lay out some of my classmates.
1) Used to be an investment banker, has working spouse. Lots of savings and she makes about 80k/year. He isn't taking out loans and has no money troubles. His parents are also well off and he should get a decent inheritance when they pass.
2) Dads a wealthy doctor, mom doesn't have to work. Parents are paying for everything. No loans. (this by the way is true for 15-25% of my class)
3) Mommy and daddy are both doctors and are VERY wealthy. Refuse to pay for medical school, but put a down payment on a townhouse so all he pays is the monthly mortgage. Plus, when his parents die he will be getting a huge inheritance and will basically be able to pay off his loans immediately.
4) Has worked her *** off for 6 years to even get into medical school. Already in massive debt from a private undergrad, then 2 years of community college, and a post-bac program. Has paid for a lot of those things by working for 80 hrs a week but is now just doing school. So she is already in massive debt and is taking out more every year.
5) Grew up below the poverty line. Parents have basically no savings or retirement. No way can parents afford to help pay for school in anyway. Will not be receiving any inheritance and will likely need to help parents once out of school.
6) Has 6 younger siblings, lives at home and is still giving money to family to help cover the bills. Will definitely not be receiving any inheritance and has been covering the families bills for years and will be for many years to come.
7) Parents are upper middle class. Making 120k/year but can't (won't) help with medical school because they are too busy paying for their beamer and mortgage on a house they don't need. However, they pay for her cell phone bill, car payment, car insurance, and for Christmas give her over 10k in gifts. Send cash occasionally and paid for the summer in Europe after first year.

So you think that all these people deserve the same amount of aid? You are severely underestimating the differences in where people come from. Also, there are more people like 1, 2, 3 and 7 than there are 4, 5 and 6. The numbers are old but they are probably still pretty accurate. About 60% of medical students parents are in the top 15% of incomes. That is HUGE. So do you still really think that everyone should get the same?

Here found the document on parental incomes. Look at it and tell me that 5% that are from the bottom 15% of incomes shouldn't get more aid. http://www.aamc.org/search/cs.html?....pdf&qt=parental+income&col=aamcorg&n=1&la=en

 

[lilnoelle]

I'm scenerio 5. My parents are doing a little bit better NOW than they were when I lived with them, but they're still living on around $35K a year. My dad's a farmer and owns some land, so I guess its possible that there will be some inheritance for us, but probably not a whole lot since he sold all of his land a while ago, bought some more recently, but at 65 years old, most likely the bank will own most of it still when he dies. I think he only owns 100 acres anyways, which isn't exactly a lot.

Its not real likely that I'll need to support them either. They've been pretty smart about money all of their lives and live below their means - although I have no clue as to what their retirement plans are. I'm guessing my dad will farm till he dies.

I think the system is about as good as it can get. Many schools have less money to give out than you think. About 1/3 of my class gets 5k/year. If that were split among the whole class to lower tuition it would hardly be noticable.

Also, everyone in med school is definitely not in the same boat. To illustrate let me lay out some of my classmates.
1) Used to be an investment banker, has working spouse. Lots of savings and she makes about 80k/year. He isn't taking out loans and has no money troubles. His parents are also well off and he should get a decent inheritance when they pass.
2) Dads a wealthy doctor, mom doesn't have to work. Parents are paying for everything. No loans. (this by the way is true for 15-25% of my class)
3) Mommy and daddy are both doctors and are VERY wealthy. Refuse to pay for medical school, but put a down payment on a townhouse so all he pays is the monthly mortgage. Plus, when his parents die he will be getting a huge inheritance and will basically be able to pay off his loans immediately.
4) Has worked her *** off for 6 years to even get into medical school. Already in massive debt from a private undergrad, then 2 years of community college, and a post-bac program. Has paid for a lot of those things by working for 80 hrs a week but is now just doing school. So she is already in massive debt and is taking out more every year.
5) Grew up below the poverty line. Parents have basically no savings or retirement. No way can parents afford to help pay for school in anyway. Will not be receiving any inheritance and will likely need to help parents once out of school.
6) Has 6 younger siblings, lives at home and is still giving money to family to help cover the bills. Will definitely not be receiving any inheritance and has been covering the families bills for years and will be for many years to come.
7) Parents are upper middle class. Making 120k/year but can't (won't) help with medical school because they are too busy paying for their beamer and mortgage on a house they don't need. However, they pay for her cell phone bill, car payment, car insurance, and for Christmas give her over 10k in gifts. Send cash occasionally and paid for the summer in Europe after first year.

So you think that all these people deserve the same amount of aid? You are severely underestimating the differences in where people come from. Also, there are more people like 1, 2, 3 and 7 than there are 4, 5 and 6. The numbers are old but they are probably still pretty accurate. About 60% of medical students parents are in the top 15% of incomes. That is HUGE. So do you still really think that everyone should get the same?

Here found the document on parental incomes. Look at it and tell me that 5% that are from the bottom 15% of incomes shouldn't get more aid. http://www.aamc.org/search/cs.html?....pdf&qt=parental+income&col=aamcorg&n=1&la=en

 

[alwaysaangel]

I'm scenerio 5.

Yup scenario 5 is me. More common than people would think.

In fact, you sound exactly like me minus the farm.

 

[gman33]

I think the system is about as good as it can get. Many schools have less money to give out than you think. About 1/3 of my class gets 5k/year. If that were split among the whole class to lower tuition it would hardly be noticable.

Also, everyone in med school is definitely not in the same boat. To illustrate let me lay out some of my classmates.
1) Used to be an investment banker, has working spouse. Lots of savings and she makes about 80k/year. He isn't taking out loans and has no money troubles. His parents are also well off and he should get a decent inheritance when they pass.
2) Dads a wealthy doctor, mom doesn't have to work. Parents are paying for everything. No loans. (this by the way is true for 15-25% of my class)
3) Mommy and daddy are both doctors and are VERY wealthy. Refuse to pay for medical school, but put a down payment on a townhouse so all he pays is the monthly mortgage. Plus, when his parents die he will be getting a huge inheritance and will basically be able to pay off his loans immediately.
4) Has worked her *** off for 6 years to even get into medical school. Already in massive debt from a private undergrad, then 2 years of community college, and a post-bac program. Has paid for a lot of those things by working for 80 hrs a week but is now just doing school. So she is already in massive debt and is taking out more every year.
5) Grew up below the poverty line. Parents have basically no savings or retirement. No way can parents afford to help pay for school in anyway. Will not be receiving any inheritance and will likely need to help parents once out of school.
6) Has 6 younger siblings, lives at home and is still giving money to family to help cover the bills. Will definitely not be receiving any inheritance and has been covering the families bills for years and will be for many years to come.
7) Parents are upper middle class. Making 120k/year but can't (won't) help with medical school because they are too busy paying for their beamer and mortgage on a house they don't need. However, they pay for her cell phone bill, car payment, car insurance, and for Christmas give her over 10k in gifts. Send cash occasionally and paid for the summer in Europe after first year.

So you think that all these people deserve the same amount of aid? You are severely underestimating the differences in where people come from. Also, there are more people like 1, 2, 3 and 7 than there are 4, 5 and 6. The numbers are old but they are probably still pretty accurate. About 60% of medical students parents are in the top 15% of incomes. That is HUGE. So do you still really think that everyone should get the same?

Here found the document on parental incomes. Look at it and tell me that 5% that are from the bottom 15% of incomes shouldn't get more aid. http://www.aamc.org/search/cs.html?....pdf&qt=parental+income&col=aamcorg&n=1&la=en

I just have a different opinion on evaluation of income. I don't think parental income should have anything to do with how you evaluate financial aid.

Maybe there could be more programs that tie FA into future career choices. For example, why does someone from low income going into a higher paying specialty, need more aid than someone from a higher parental income going into a lower paying specialty?

Not giving aid to someone from a lower income family will not limit their ability to go to med school, they will just be in the same boat as many others, and they will borrow more. I don't think it's the same as UG where people won't automatically have the same income potential.

Anyway, I don't think dividing up the small amount of grant and scholarship money will make much of a difference. I'd rather see efforts focused on ways to lower the cost of medical education for all.

 

[alwaysaangel]

I just have a different opinion on evaluation of income. I don't think parental income should have anything to do with how you evaluate financial aid.

Maybe there could be more programs that tie FA into future career choices. For example, why does someone from low income going into a higher paying specialty, need more aid than someone from a higher parental income going into a lower paying specialty?

Not giving aid to someone from a lower income family will not limit their ability to go to med school, they will just be in the same boat as many others, and they will borrow more. I don't think it's the same as UG where people won't automatically have the same income potential.

Anyway, I don't think dividing up the small amount of grant and scholarship money will make much of a difference. I'd rather see efforts focused on ways to lower the cost of medical education for all.

There is no way to use future income potential to determine aid since most students don't choose specialties until 3rd year. So trying to use that is useless.

And if someone has to support their family while going to school then yes, less aid will limit their ability to go to school. The high cost already prevents many people with great potential from even considering it because when you grew up on 20k/year for a family of 5 its just not even in your realm of imagination to ever be 200k in debt. That is a huge reason WHY so few people from low incomes end up in medical school. They just immediately cross out the possibility because they cannot fathom paying for it. Cutting need-based aid will make that issue that much worse.

 

[gman33]

There is no way to use future income potential to determine aid since most students don't choose specialties until 3rd year. So trying to use that is useless.

And if someone has to support their family while going to school then yes, less aid will limit their ability to go to school. The high cost already prevents many people with great potential from even considering it because when you grew up on 20k/year for a family of 5 its just not even in your realm of imagination to ever be 200k in debt. That is a huge reason WHY so few people from low incomes end up in medical school. They just immediately cross out the possibility because they cannot fathom paying for it. Cutting need-based aid will make that issue that much worse.

Schools only factor in YOUR cost of attendance. While you can get private loans to make up for dependents, it's not part of the COA. This does limit people, but the current system doesn't do anything to fix it.
I agree that I would like to see aid given more to people in this situation. I feel it's more relevant than basing it on parental income. Maybe there needs to be a way to determine if parents are actually providing financial support. Like for example, if you are an adult who was been living on your own for X number of years, parental income in no longer part of the equation.

They used to have more programs that gave scholarships based on going into primary care. You could just set it up that you had to pay back the money if you didn't.

Anyway, I'm not saying to screw over people from low income families. I'm just saying that the process should look more at the individual's financial situation and their abilty to repay.

 

[alwaysaangel]

Schools only factor in YOUR cost of attendance. While you can get private loans to make up for dependents, it's not part of the COA. This does limit people, but the current system doesn't do anything to fix it.
I agree that I would like to see aid given more to people in this situation. I feel it's more relevant than basing it on parental income. Maybe there needs to be a way to determine if parents are actually providing financial support. Like for example, if you are an adult who was been living on your own for X number of years, parental income in no longer part of the equation.

They used to have more programs that gave scholarships based on going into primary care. You could just set it up that you had to pay back the money if you didn't.

Anyway, I'm not saying to screw over people from low income families. I'm just saying that the process should look more at the individual's financial situation and their abilty to repay.

They still have the primary care scholarships/low interest loans.

And while I can understand where you're coming from its naive to think its possible to look at an "individuals" financial situation. The fact of the matter is very few people truly have an individual situation as shown by my examples of types of students. We are all intertwined with our parents and that isn't going to change. Even non-trads who have been living on their own for years. And regarding ability to repay they assume we can all repay or they wouldnt give us such easy loans. Beyond that looking at earning potential based on desired specialty just won't work outside of rare programs such as the primary care program. You can't do that for every student and every speciality - 90% would end up stuck in a specialty they hate or would owe money back (or be owed money when they found out they couldn't do derm and went into FM)

There is simply no realistic way to truly determine if someone is or isnt getting help from their parents and the current system is as good as its going to get until the cost of medical education as a whole drops.

 

[gman33]

Any other thoughts out there?

I didn't want this to become an argument about my views.
Just wanted to see what other people think.

 

[yadayadadude]

Like for example, if you are an adult who was been living on your own for X number of years, parental income in no longer part of the equation.

My school doesn't ask for parental information once the student is 30.

 

[yadayadadude]

My understanding was that this discussion was basically moot unless we're talking about the relatively few schools that offer significant need-based grants. I thought such schools were the minority. Is that not true?

 

[gman33]

My understanding was that this discussion was basically moot unless we're talking about the relatively few schools that offer significant need-based grants. I thought such schools were the minority. Is that not true?

At my school, the majority of aid is need based. They also require parental info regardless of age. If you don't provide it, you are not eligible for any university funding.

 

[Ooch]

I think students' pre-existing educational debt should come into play. Right now it's not considered AT ALL by any of the schools I'm looking at. I will damn sure be considering it heavily (with interest) at the end of my education. While it's not necessarily the responsibility of one institution to pick up the slack for a student's prior educational debt, the schools should somehow acknowledge that not everyone is coming in with a clean slate. It makes a huge difference.