How do your patients react when you tell them that they do not need an antidepressant?

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carlosc1dbz

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Just curious to hear other peoples accounts. When patient's come in looking to be started on antidepressant meds because they, for example lost their jobs and feel "down," or they are having marital problems and feel "stressed." Do they usually feel relieved or do they feel increased anxiety at the fact that you are not recommending meds for them?

Along the same lines, how do you guys discuss with patient's the difference between crappy life situations and the actual disease MDD.
 
Just curious to hear other peoples accounts. When patient's come in looking to be started on antidepressant meds because they, for example lost their jobs and feel "down," or they are having marital problems and feel "stressed." Do they usually feel relieved or do they feel increased anxiety at the fact that you are not recommending meds for them?

Along the same lines, how do you guys discuss with patient's the difference between crappy life situations and the actual disease MDD.

discussions/education about indicative vs pathological anxiety. discussion/education about the adaptive nature of negative emotionality to the human experience and overall functioning.
 
Just curious to hear other peoples accounts. When patient's come in looking to be started on antidepressant meds because they, for example lost their jobs and feel "down," or they are having marital problems and feel "stressed." Do they usually feel relieved or do they feel increased anxiety at the fact that you are not recommending meds for them?

Along the same lines, how do you guys discuss with patient's the difference between crappy life situations and the actual disease MDD.
What is the "the actual disease MDD"? depression is not a disease but an extremely heterogenous and pathoplastic syndrome, and what we call major depressive disorder is typically caused by life events related to loss, failure or humiliation, on the background of childhood adversity, and perpetuated by lack of social support. genetic and individual differences is stress reactivity, response to maternal nurturance, and threat appraisal also play their role. You would also be hard pressed to find a depressed person who didn't have marital problems if for no other reason than being depressed tends to adversely affect interpersonal relationships - and that is likely to worsen or perpetuate depression. In fact, couples therapy is an under-utilized and effective treatment for depressive illness, recommended in the UK NICE Guidelines for depression.

Although I do believe there is a difference between endemic misery due to **** life syndrome and a different kind of depressive despair, the distinction is a blurry one. In the past there was the concept of reactive depression and endogenous depression (also called neurotic depression and psychotic depression respectively). The idea was that some depression were reactions to loss events and may respond better to psychotherapy, and some depressions came out of the blue, presumed to be biological in nature, and may respond better to drugs. Although this sort of dichotomous thinking still persists in the field, it has long been debunked. Gene Paykel and Gerald Klerman studied this is in the 1960s and 70s and found that patients with "reactive depressions" responded just as well to antidepressants as patients with endogenous depressions, and with careful history taking, life events preceding the onset of depression could be identified even in those with so-called endogenous depressions. Behavior activation and even cognitive-behavior therapy have been shown to be effective even in patients with severe depression used alone without drugs. The Australian Psychiatry Gordon Parker still argues that there is a difference between neurotic and more biological depression and that there are different treatment approaches - for example antidepressants would be more effective in trials if we were better able to select those with the more "biological depressions". (Neurotic depressives on the other hand may respond to chocolate). Jerome Wakefield has argued that DSM-IV's bereavement exclusion should be expanded to include all other loss events so that you cannot diagnose major depressive disorder if there was a loss event (he argues this would prevent the medicalization of normal suffering). The historian Edward Shorter has argued we should bring back the concept of "nerves" for more milder reactive depressive states, to distinguish it from "melancholia" a more biological form of depression. These are appealing but not terribly convincing arguments however.

The difference is not really between severe and less severe, reactive and endogenous, psychosocial and biological however - the real difference in depression is single vs. recurrent. 50% of patients who have a major depressive episode will never have another episode. These patients appear quite distinct from the 50% who have 2 or more episodes (most of these having several). Patients with a single episode tend to experience depression later in life, and in response to a more severe life event. This has led to the idea there was something more inherent (genetic) about recurrent depressives. Also patients with recurrent depression are more likely to have a family history of bipolar disorder (incidentally manic-depressive illness diagnosis included both recurrrent unipolar depression as well as today's bipolar disorder). So there is likely some element of heritability at play that provides vulnerability in how we respond to childhood environments. However the real difference between recurrent and single depressive episodes is childhood adversity. Patients who experience neglect in childhood are more likely to be sensitized to react to more minor life events in adulthood by becoming depressed. The idea is that neglect leads to more hyperreactivity of the HPA axis to stressors. Constance Hammen has shown that women with recurrent depression do not experience more fateful life events than non-depressed women (i.e. acts of god like floods, people dying ) but they experience more dependent life events (i.e. life events that they are active participants in - such as job loss, marital breakup etc). Depressives thus contribute to creating the life events that make them depressed. Part of this has been attributed to having a negative cognitive style.

For example if you tend to think "I'm going to fail this exam" you might not study very hard for it, then you fail (self-fulfilling prophecy), and then tell yourself "see, I am a failure, just like my dad said" (confirmation bias) and then become depressed etc.

To answer your antidepressant question: this is something PCPs deal with much much more so than psychiatrists as usually there has to be something more wrong with you to go and see a psychiatrist in the first place (failed treatments, personality disorder, comorbid illnesses etc). But the placebo effects in patients who don't have major depressive illness are pretty good so these patients often do appear to respond to antidepressants, partly from placebo effect, partly because an antidepressant prescription is like throwing a lifeline to a drowning person out at see, and may also act a "gift" from the doctor to let the patient know she is loved, or as a transitional object that provides a level of comfort to the patient who cannot self-sooth or lacks a close confiding relationship.
 

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I am curious about the names. How does he spontaneously remember the names of all those people (researchers, writers, historians, etc)???

I sometimes forget my mother-in-law's name.
You can be one of those people who calls her "mom."

My (non-blood related) aunt does this to my grandparents. It always make me laugh on the inside in a slightly cringey way.
 
but what you are talking about is that a lot of what we see that is labeled is depressive illness is something else that we in psychiatry have no term for but the anthropological literature does: social suffering.

As I've written elsewhere:

"Today the word depression provides a currency of validation. When we see a doctor feeling deflated, tired, sleepless, joyless, or sad, a diagnosis of depression is like a badge of honor for the wounded warrior, it confers recognition that we have suffered so. There is something reassuring to hear an ‘expert’ tell us they know what is wrong and they know how to help. When you feel like you are drowning, a prescription for a pill, is like a lifeline that keeps you afloat. And even though you know the reasons you feel so terrible, which you are constantly reminded of, it becomes convenient to believe that something as simple of a chemical imbalance is at the root of it all. Even if you realize that the remedy maybe in deeper psychological work, having more money, a better relationship, a better economy, better behaved children, a sense of self-worth, or even taking better care of yourself, those things are unavailable or not forthcoming. We make do with what’s on offer. And what’s on offer is antidepressants

Incidentally, whilst states of despair and misery have existed throughout time and space, depression only has currency in the West in recent times. In China whilst the same syndrome of major depressive disorder is recognizable, it has no cultural cachet. Instead the diagnosis of neurasthenia is made. In Zimbabwe, anxious and depressive ruminations are captured by the term ‘kifungisisa’ which means thinking too much. In Somalia, there is no linguistic concept of depression. The closest thing is ‘Qu’lub’ which translates as ‘the feelings a camel has when its friend dies’. In Latvia, the term “nervi” or damaged nerves captured the endemic suffering following the fall of the Soviet Union. Depression is as much a cultural concept as it is a biological one.

Whither Social Suffering?
In the anthropological literature, there is a concept that describes the misery that individuals experience in context where they are powerless, where things have no prospect of improvement, and the feelings are entirely understandable. The concept is that of social suffering. In the medical and psychiatric literature, little attention has been paid to this concept, yet it afflicts the majority in large parts of the world who are indeed the inhabitants of unstable and uncertain sociopolitical landscapes. Although this term is often applied to those in developing countries, it seems apt to describe many patients in the developed world as afflicted by social suffering too

It is not surprising that psychiatrists have neglected social suffering. There isn’t a pill for it. We may empathically bear witness to the suffering of others, but that only goes so far. It is not surprising either that these individuals are incorrectly diagnosed as depressed, and that this misdiagnosis increases in those over 65 and live in a world that has no use and sees no value in those who no longer work. It’s much easier for everyone to transform this endemic misery into depressive illness, because if it’s depressive illness then it may benefit from medical or psychological remedy. Those in primary care feel an enormous pressure to ‘do something’ and prescribing a pill is easy enough. It temporarily satisfies both patient and clinician that something has been done. The reality is by seeing the individual as a problem, we conveniently ignore the wider social, economic and political forces that oppress, and yes, depress. These are problems that need resolution through public policy, and not through pills or psychotherapy."
 
I really appreciate your answer, it is very elegant and informative.
 
Just curious to hear other peoples accounts. When patient's come in looking to be started on antidepressant meds because they, for example lost their jobs and feel "down," or they are having marital problems and feel "stressed." Do they usually feel relieved or do they feel increased anxiety at the fact that you are not recommending meds for them?

Along the same lines, how do you guys discuss with patient's the difference between crappy life situations and the actual disease MDD.
Splik has great information and I almost completely agree with his perspective. My perspective is that it is not psychotherapy to tell patients what they need or don't need. We discuss the various options for treatment and I help them to improve their understanding so that they can make informed choices. As far as explaining MDD verses crappy life situation, again their attribution is more important than mine or any other doctor. Of course, there are times when I will take a very paternal stance, put on the mantle of authority, and insist that the patient see a psychiatrist and take their medication as prescribed because sometimes that is what my patient needs. Most of the time, however, the last thing they need is one more person telling them what they should do.
 
88 yr old woman on xanax TID since the dawn of time.... has falls, PCP won't prescribe it any longer and dumps on to me. I put her on a taper and yet she's angry and belligerent. Desperate pleas to reinstate to make people happy.

le sigh.
 
Just curious to hear other peoples accounts. When patient's come in looking to be started on antidepressant meds because they, for example lost their jobs and feel "down," or they are having marital problems and feel "stressed." Do they usually feel relieved or do they feel increased anxiety at the fact that you are not recommending meds for them?

Along the same lines, how do you guys discuss with patient's the difference between crappy life situations and the actual disease MDD.

For depression, I go with a behavioral/biological model. Depression isn't the state of being sad but the process that keeps you in that state. It's the isolation, the poor self care, the lack of sleep that perpetuates the sense of hopeless despair. To use a metaphor, if your thoughts keep walking down the same path, that path gets so worn it starts to look like the only viable, or at least the easiest, route to take [I need a better analogy for the urban setting].

Sometimes people get so stuck in the process, their brain becomes rigid and needs help remodeling itself. Antidepressants can help the brain spring back into its shape... It doesn't change who you are or the situation but can give you a foundation to work from.

Then, if I'm leaning against meds I'll support the person, noting their strengths and healthy coping skills while leaving the idea of medications open in case down the road they do need them (and don't think of it as being defeated)
 
88 yr old woman on xanax TID since the dawn of time.... has falls, PCP won't prescribe it any longer and dumps on to me. I put her on a taper and yet she's angry and belligerent. Desperate pleas to reinstate to make people happy.

le sigh.
Personally, I can't see the point in tapering at that age. If she's been on it that long, I can't see how she would suddenly start having falls as a result of it. Falls seem much more likely to be related to age. Withdrawal will not only make her mood worse (the belligerence and anger you mention don't come from nowhere), and it's not as if withdrawal suddenly improves cognition and motor function. In fact, withdrawal in my personal experience makes cognition worse, at least temporarily. It's like an alcoholic whose head clears out when he has a drink (from what I've been told). Just my non-medical opinion. 88 is past expected life span already. If she had another 50 years to plan for it would be a different story.
 
Of course you don't. She's already at risk of falls, so we don't want to make that worse. Falls are dangerous. They risk seriously injuring her and can lead to hospitalizations.
You've met this woman?

And you know she's less likely to fall in a benzodiazepine withdrawal and have an overall better quality of life in her remaining years?
 
You've met this woman?

And you know she's less likely to fall in a benzodiazepine withdrawal and have an overall better quality of life in her remaining years?
I haven't met her and neither have you, but the doctor who has evaluated her posted that he thinks she's safer without the benzos. Plus, as a doctor I've been trained in how to analyze and understand the literature on this topic, unlike you who didn't get this training and just posts here against every anti-benzo post.
 
I haven't met her and neither have you, but the doctor who has evaluated her posted that he thinks she's safer without the benzos. Plus, as a doctor I've been trained in how to analyze and understand the literature on this topic, unlike you who didn't get this training and just posts here against every anti-benzo post.
I post against anti-benzo posts? I think you have me confused. If you look at my posts going back years on this forum I have been attacked by others at times for how passionate I have been in decrying the reckless prescription of benzodiazepines.

As far as your training in reading and understanding literature, it didn't seem to prepare you for reading that the doctor in this case who wanted the patient off the benzos was a PCP and the poster we are both referring to is a psychiatrist who hasn't said she's safer only that she's angry and belligerent. It didn't seem to prepare you to read that she is not without benzos but is in a taper.

I have read the a great deal of literature on benzodiazepines, including in the elderly. I know that benzodiazepines increase all mortality risk, I know that they increase the risk of falls and dementia, and I know that they can be successfully tapered in elderly individuals.

I gave what I clearly described as my non-medical opinion given the age of the patient, and you replied with an out-of-context quotation saying "Of course you would . . ." as if to refer to my personal situation, which I have not and will not bring into this conversation. It was glib, and it was a very small remark to make.

Edit: And given that I have actually read studies on elderly patients who withdraw from benzodiazepines, I want to point out (as you assuredly already know) that the success rate has not been measured in patient populations who do not consent to tapering. Countries that have national guidelines on the tapering of long-term benzodiazepine "therapy" indicate that the taper should occur with patient consent and the length of the taper should be guided by the patient's symptoms.
 
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As far as your training in reading and understanding literature, it didn't seem to prepare you for reading that the doctor in this case who wanted the patient off the benzos was a PCP and the poster we are both referring to is a psychiatrist who hasn't said she's safer only that she's angry and belligerent. It didn't seem to prepare you to read that she is not without benzos but is in a taper.
I don't have time to respond to the rest, but you have this part clearly backwards. The PCP referred to Psych without adjusting the benzos himself, so we don't actually know if he thought the patient would be better off with the benzos, only that he didn't want the responsibility/liability of handling them anymore.

The psychiatrist, on the other hand, initiated a benzo taper, meaning he was working to get the patient off the benzos. I really don't get how you could think this isn't the case.
 
I have read the a great deal of literature on benzodiazepines

And this, right here, is one of your problems, Birch. Maybe instead of reading all this literature on benzos, most of which seems to be confirming how hard done by you were for being prescribed them in the first place (seriously, it's like you're stuck on some sort of self imposed confirmation bias loop sometimes), and transferring your own experiences onto the knowledge or experience of others, you should be concentrating more on just getting through your own taper off them.
 
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