How does an ADCOM work?

[talkalot24]

I'm sure the following varies for each ADCOM, but I have always wanted to know the following:

1) What % of members must vote to accept a candidate in order for that person to be offered a seat?
2) How is it decided on whom to interview? Is it decided by just a few members? Is it decided by a subcommittee? Is it decided by a majority vote?

Again, I'm sure it varies at every school, but if you even have an idea of what it is at one school, it would be an interesting thing to know.

Thanks!

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[armybound]

Of the schools I am familiar with, voting on a candidate isn't really what happens. More often, a candidate is assigned a grade or score based on the entirety of their application, and offers are sent to everyone above or below a certain score, depending on the school and how competitive the applicants are.
At the school I am familiar with, 3 reviewers will read your personal statement and look at your grades, then assign you a score. I imagine you then get brought up in a meeting to decide whether or not to interview you... or it's an auto-invite, I'm not sure.

I imagine it varies very widely though. LizzyM will have the best insight of anyone.

 

[Retsage]

Maliciously.

 

[talkalot24]

^ lol!

 

[LizzyM]

Armybound has it right more or less.

Several adcom members review an application, give it a score, and the Dean of Admissions decides based on scores and commentaries written by the readers, to give an interview or to hold the applicant for later consideration.

After interviews, 8-12 adcom members read the file, including remarks from the interviewer(s), and give it a score. A list is made ranking the applicants by mean post-interview score and showing the mean score awarded to the application pre-interview, the score(s) assigned by the interviewer(s) and the mean post-interview scores, as well as gpa and MCAT. An executive committee reviews all the numbers and gives 👍 or 👎. In most instances their is agreement around the table. In rare instances, there is vigorous discussion and the person chairing the meeting may call for a show of hands. The greatest discussion tends to be with extremes: poor numbers but great interview (don't ask how these applicants get interviews-- I'm not going there) or great numbers but a weird interview.

 

[nick_carraway]

The greatest discussion tends to be with extremes: poor numbers but great interview (don't ask how these applicants get interviews-- I'm not going there) or great numbers but a weird interview.

Cruel. That's like throwing a dog a bone and then hitting his nose when he goes for it.

 

[LizzyM]

Cruel. That's like throwing a dog a bone and then hitting his nose when he goes for it.

So sorry.... generally the applicant with poor numbers has something else going on some of which would be against the SDN Commandments to talk about or they've got something along the lines of the following from a post I made recently to someone whose only interview thus far was at Harvard:

Are you a legacy at Harvard? multiple generation legacy?
Do you have relatives employed at Harvard?
Is there a building (or even a modest hall) at Harvard bearing your name?

(btw, that Harvard interview guy couldn't answer yes to any of the questions so we still haven't figured out why everyone else is treating him like kryptonite)

 

[Nomdeplume]

Very interesting. Thanks for the info, LizzyM.

Maliciously.

This cracked me up.

 

[THH]

Slips of paper and a hat.

 

[Kaustikos]

So sorry.... generally the applicant with poor numbers has something else going on some of which would be against the SDN Commandments to talk about or they've got something along the lines of the following from a post I made recently to someone whose only interview thus far was at Harvard:

Are you a legacy at Harvard? multiple generation legacy?
Do you have relatives employed at Harvard?
Is there a building (or even a modest hall) at Harvard bearing your name?

(btw, that Harvard interview guy couldn't answer yes to any of the questions so we still haven't figured out why everyone else is treating him like kryptonite)

Care to offer insight as to how Indiana would do it, considering they generally give out interviews more liberally than most med schools (I think that as long as your an Indiana resident, you get one).

 

[Excelsius]

So sorry.... generally the applicant with poor numbers has something else going on some of which would be against the SDN Commandments to talk about or they've got something along the lines of the following from a post I made recently to someone whose only interview thus far was at Harvard:

Are you a legacy at Harvard? multiple generation legacy?
Do you have relatives employed at Harvard?
Is there a building (or even a modest hall) at Harvard bearing your name?

(btw, that Harvard interview guy couldn't answer yes to any of the questions so we still haven't figured out why everyone else is treating him like kryptonite)

I guess a better question to ask would be something more specific. Some examples:

1. If someone is granted an interview with "low" numbers, does it almost always mean that at least one of his/her scores was very high? Example: sub 3.2 GPA but supra 36 MCAT (or vice versa).
2. Or does it mean that he/she is disadvantaged/URM?
3. Is there usually a complete and significant upward trend with a good explanation for past performance?
4. And more importantly, what are some examples of ECs that make adcoms interested enough in a student to interview him/her despite very low numbers, either in GPA or MCAT or even both.

#4 is not something you can fake easily and sometimes I wonder whether the whole purpose of #4 is to show adcoms that a student is very passionate about something and therefore can somehow contribute to the name of the school. This would mean that even the most seemingly pedestrian tasks like research - at least by SDN standards - can in fact be a deciding factor if done correctly. I understand that also selection guidelines vary significantly among schools and something like research would be much more valued at a research oriented school.

 

[talkalot24]

In rare instances, there is vigorous discussion and the person chairing the meeting may call for a show of hands.

If this happens, does a simple majority decide?

 

[LizzyM]

Simple majority. I'd estimate that <1% of the decisions are based on a vote. The rest are unanimous decisions or one person disagreeing with the rest.

I didn't really want to talk about those "low number" applicants. I'm talking all numbers are LOW. Generally LOW is still at the avg for all admitted applicants nation-wide but quite low for us. Generally the applicant has some characteristic(s) that the applicant has no control over that helped them get an interview. Really, I don't want to get into this any more than this.

 

[armybound]

Simple majority. I'd estimate that <1% of the decisions are based on a vote. The rest are unanimous decisions or one person disagreeing with the rest.

I didn't really want to talk about those "low number" applicants. I'm talking all numbers are LOW. Generally LOW is still at the avg for all admitted applicants nation-wide but quite low for us. Generally the applicant has some characteristic(s) that the applicant has no control over that helped them get an interview. Really, I don't want to get into this any more than this.

Lizzy, how did you come to be an adcom? Was it just because of your position within the school, or did you actively pursue a role in med school admissions?

 

[nick_carraway]

Lizzy, how did you come to be an adcom? Was it just because of your position within the school, or did you actively pursue a role in med school admissions?

Good question! 👍

I also wonder what the turnover rate is. There seems to be a fair number of former adcom members out there.

 

[talkalot24]

One more question:

What role does the Dean play? I know you said he makes the final decision regarding which applicants to interview. Does the Dean make any other major decisions? Can he/she override committee vote and choose to accept an applicant? Does he/she choose which applicants to accept off the waitlist?

 

[nick_carraway]

Generally LOW is still at the avg for all admitted applicants nation-wide but quite low for us.

Hm. As an applicant who will still be below the national average after my post-bacc, I think I should prepare for a harsh reapplication cycle 🙂

 

[fizzle]

.

 

[fizzle]

I've heard that UCSF determines who to accept by simply asking members to read the final application and ask, "How much do you want this person to come here, on a scale of 1-10?"

That's really the only case that I've heard that doesn't simply rank the application early on based on its separate parts.

Edit: armybound, I've edited my previous post to remove my comments, but it would also help if you removed the quote in your post 🙂

 

[LizzyM]

Lizzy, how did you come to be an adcom? Was it just because of your position within the school, or did you actively pursue a role in med school admissions?

Adcom members are drawn from the faculty. In some schools, there are student members although they do not serve on the committee that makes final decisions as LCME (the accrediting body for med schools) requires that those final decisions be made by the faculty. Members of the adcom are appointed by the Dean. Usually they are recommended by a current member or their chairman. It is a voluntary gig, one does it as part of the "good citizenship" of being a member of the faculty.

The dean's role varies by school, I suspect. Some of you might recall the uproar when the Dean at a state school made a decision that over-rode the decision of the adcom. The applicant was the son of a major supporter of the state's governor. The dean ended up resigning as dean (but he did stay on the faculty).

 

[rama kandra]

one day i want to be an adcom and help the underdogs!

 

[nick_carraway]

one day i want to be an adcom and help the underdogs!

I just thought of a new response for those "where do you see yourself in a decade" secondaries.

 

[TheElement]

My cousin used to work on an admissions committee. The key word is used to. When I asked him why he quit he said there were a lot of behind the scenes stuff like what LizzyM mentioned that goes on. He simply just got tired of the politics and decided that he would rather teach instead. So not all admissions are based on the obvious stats, credentials that a lot of people think.

 

[nick_carraway]

My cousin used to work on an admissions committee. The key word is used to. When I asked him why he quit he said there were a lot of behind the scenes stuff like what LizzyM mentioned that goes on. He simply just got tired of the politics and decided that he would rather teach instead. So not all admissions are based on the obvious stats, credentials that a lot of people think.

At least we know that not all adcom members agree with it, whatever it is.

I'd be frustrated that it happens, but with 20,000 applicants getting rejected each year, it's more likely to be my record's fault than another applicant's special acceptance.

 

[redlight]

wow very interesting thread. thanks for the insight!

have you ever mentioned what type of school you work for, LizzyM (top 20 research, etc.)? i think it may help a little in putting the info in perspective.
also, what are the main factors that go into evaluating gpa? do you look at grade inflation/deflation trends for schools/pre med courses at schools specifically, etc? or do you just ggo by the mcat to correct for this? are applicants usually ranked in terms of gpa in committee lors? also, about how much would you say interview mean score counts at your school in that numercal formula (%)?

 

[armybound]

one day i want to be an adcom and help the underdogs!

same here

 

[LizzyM]

wow very interesting thread. thanks for the insight!

have you ever mentioned what type of school you work for, LizzyM (top 20 research, etc.)?

I think that it is well known that I'm at a highly ranked school. For the sake of my privacy, I do not disclose my exact location.

also, what are the main factors that go into evaluating gpa?

#1; gpa, then BCPM separately and gpa by year.

do you look at grade inflation/deflation trends for schools/pre med courses at schools specifically, etc?

The major & school get noted and taken into consideration. Some of us look at specific courses (organic chemistry & physics in particular) that everyone takes and that are usually tough.

or do you just ggo by the mcat to correct for this?

MCAT does get looked at including each subscore and the number of times it was taken. (some schools average the scores, some schools take the best of, some take the best of each subscore).

are applicants usually ranked in terms of gpa in committee lors?

at some undergrad schools they are, at some they are placed in quartiles or otherwise subdivided, some have categorical designations and some have 2 categorical designations (academic and personal). At least one school provides both a quantitative designation on gpa and an overall categorical recommendation.

also, about how much would you say interview mean score counts at your school in that numercal formula (%)?

I don't know. A very bad interview day will trump whatever else is in the file so I guess you could say 100%; in most cases it is more like +/-20% or less. A very bad interview day might involve inappropriate behavior such as putting your feet on the interviewer's desk or being rude to the staff, or being very inappropriate in answers to questions or questions to the interviewers. (e.g. belittling or demeaning comments about patients, extreme arrogance, proselyltizing the interviewer). I am thankful that the "very inappropriate" are also very rare. (<2%).

 

[bluesmd]

LizzyM, i just want to say thanks for all the insight you give for everything! it's very helpful and i know you must be really busy so your taking time out to do this coz this process is very confusing

 

[Lukkie]

A very bad interview day might involve inappropriate behavior such as putting your feet on the interviewer's desk

 

[dw2158]

LizzyM, i just want to say thanks for all the insight you give for everything! it's very helpful and i know you must be really busy so your taking time out to do this coz this process is very confusing

amen. i appreciate your de-mystifying this process slightly 🙂

 

[Pedsbro]

I don't know. A very bad interview day will trump whatever else is in the file so I guess you could say 100%; in most cases it is more like +/-20% or less. A very bad interview day might involve inappropriate behavior such as putting your feet on the interviewer's desk or being rude to the staff, or being very inappropriate in answers to questions or questions to the interviewers. (e.g. belittling or demeaning comments about patients, extreme arrogance, proselyltizing the interviewer). I am thankful that the "very inappropriate" are also very rare. (<2%).

😱Did someone really do that to you?? Stupid pre-meds...

 

[LizzyM]

😱Did someone really do that to you?? Stupid pre-meds...

Not to me but to someone else. Believe me, we all heard about it.

 

[Excelsius]

Not to me but to someone else. Believe me, we all heard about it.

I think now I can't help but be biased when I see a thread: "3.92 GPA, 39 MCAT, ZERO Acceptances." Then you open the thread and it goes ".... this process is so random!"

 

[Lukkie]

I think now I can't help but be biased when I see a thread: "3.92 GPA, 39 MCAT, ZERO Acceptances." Then you open the thread and it goes ".... this process is so random!"

 

[redlight]

thanks for answering my (silly) questions, LizzyM!

 

[kalia]

I wonder where Letter of Intents/Interests come in if everything after the interview is already numerically scored and ranked?

 

[Dr Lyss]

I'm curious if LOIs have any real effect at all. I think it makes the applicant feel better more than it helps your application.

 

[bozz]

I think that it is well known that I'm at a highly ranked school. For the sake of my privacy, I do not disclose my exact location.

I've noticed you seem to know a lot about a certain city.. or maybe it's just to mislead us

 

[GoSpursGo]

I'm curious if LOIs have any real effect at all. I think it makes the applicant feel better more than it helps your application.

An anecdote, take it for what you will: A friend of my summer roommate (yes, this is a 3rd-hand story, but I'm fairly confident he had no reason to exaggerate), was on a waitlist at her top choice school. She calls up the admissions office to find out where she was on the waitlist, and the admissions office lady gives her the usual spiel about how it isn't that school's policy to disclose that information- just everyone who isn't accepted is automatically on the waitlist, but they have no clue if they're at the top or bottom. My roommate's friend then goes on to say something to the effect that, "well, _______ SOM is really my top choice and I'd absolutely, definitely go there if I was accepted, so I'd really like to know if I'm near the top of the waitlist, or if I'm near the bottom so that I can go ahead and kiss that dream goodbye and start looking into housing/etc at the current school I'm holding an acceptance at."

Apparently, the admissions lady pauses and says, "can you please hold?" My roommate's friend stays on hold with the admissions office for literally half an hour, and when she comes back, it's the director of admissions, who says, "OK (my roommate's friend), here's what we're going to do: I'm going to go ahead and offer you an acceptance right now on the phone. You'll be getting an official letter in the mail soon."

Naturally, she told this to all her friends, who then tried it themselves: no such luck.

Anyways, I really think it's just school-dependent. I had one school tell me during an interview that they "welcome all kinds of letters, even if it's just to express how much they love our school," and of course other schools explicitly say they don't want that stuff. Too bad there's no real way to know which schools do care and which don't.

 

[LizzyM]

I had one school tell me during an interview that they "welcome all kinds of letters, even if it's just to express how much they love our school," and of course other schools explicitly say they don't want that stuff. Too bad there's no real way to know which schools do care and which don't.

If this information isn't provided on interview day, ask the highest ranking person you see (dean>faculty interviewer>student).

 

[GoSpursGo]

If this information isn't provided on interview day, ask the highest ranking person you see (dean>faculty interviewer>student).

Lizzy, I understand that obviously it would be advantageous to not bother wasting our time writing these letters if a school doesn't care about them; however, it is a common advice that is given out on SDN in cases where a particular school's policy is unknown that someone "might as well send an LOI, it can't hurt, right?" Are there actually schools out there where sending an LOI could negatively affect an applicant's chances of admission? Or are you just giving that advice to save us from wasting our time?

 

[LizzyM]

Lizzy, I understand that obviously it would be advantageous to not bother wasting our time writing these letters if a school doesn't care about them; however, it is a common advice that is given out on SDN in cases where a particular school's policy is unknown that someone "might as well send an LOI, it can't hurt, right?" Are there actually schools out there where sending an LOI could negatively affect an applicant's chances of admission? Or are you just giving that advice to save us from wasting our time?

I have no idea. There are over 100 schools. It might be best to ask on interview day or call & ask after you've interviewed.