How Does One Fail An Intern/Residency Rotation?

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Coastie

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I saw this mentioned in another thread.

How does someone fail a rotation during residency? Never show up and give a patient every medication they are allergic to?

Curious!

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How does someone fail a rotation during residency? Never show up and give a patient every medication they are allergic to?

Well, that's probably one way to do it.

Most people who fail a rotation as a resident have failed to demonstrate competency in one way or another.
 
I guess what he means is how to measure incompetency/unprofessionalism in an objective way.Do you have any idea??
 
I guess what he means is how to measure incompetency/unprofessionalism in an objective way.Do you have any idea??

Let's face it, once you're out of school, how you're judged in the real world is largely subjective. That's how it works in residency, for the most part, aside from in-training exams and the like. Some people may find this something of a rude awakening, but that's just how it is.
 
Could it be possible an intern/resident get fired due to some type of personality clash with an attending/faculty ??
 
Could it be possible an intern/resident get fired due to some type of personality clash with an attending/faculty ??

Not likely, unless their personality interfered with patient care or their job performance.

If a resident doesn't get along with one attending, that's not necessarily a big deal. If the resident doesn't get along with lots of people, that's a problem.
 
I can think of a few reasons:

1) failing to show up frequently
2) Making numerous errors that are not deliberate but are repetitive and show lack of progression
3) Making deliberate errors or errors of omission (like trying to cover your tracks if you misdose a patient's medication)
4) Cheating in some way or another
5) A terrible attitude (would have to be really bad to fail)

Many sins which go below the levels of the above may result in disciplinary actions of course, but most residents would be given the opportunity to explain themselves and not make the same mistake again.
 
Could it be possible an intern/resident get fired due to some type of personality clash with an attending/faculty ??
KentW, I beg to differ with you. As you stated, the real world evaluations are highly subjective.

The answer to this is absolutely yes. Medicine is filled with people who are extremely bright. There are some who have large, but fragile egos. At some institutions, there is little to no protection afforded residents. A personality conflict can indeed be the reason a resident gets fired. This has happened and is well documented in more than one institution.

Residents have, in fact, been terminated from residency, and threatened with the loss of career, because they called programs on rules violations, or complained about a program's behavior, or posted on this site. There are well documented cases of this. Your site co-host, scutwork.com can tell you volumes about the threats and retaliations made against his network by hospital attorneys and program directors. Program directors have, in fact, made false and misleading "evaluations" of "problem" residents whose only failing was to call a program on rules violations or abuse.

Add to this a generous helping of money used to finance the medical education system, mix it with a dash of mandatory "residency" training whereby four years of medical school is worthless without the training, and you have a system ripe for abuse. The NRMP states that they expect you to complete a single residency. It is nearly impossible to change programs once you begin one and you cannot get a license without completing it. There is a ready pool of replacements for you if you are a.) not competent, b.) object to improper program behavior c.) the pd decides he doesn't like you.

Malignant programs run by malignant, insecure people exist. Medicine is not exempt from this, nor or those who run training programs. One well known SDNer was forced out of Hopkins over concerns about ACGME rules violations. There are a number of others who have similar circumstances. Most have been able to obtain other residencies, but a number have not.

The ACGME is aware of this and has instituted minor reforms, but they have no teeth. One of these is the fact that programs are now *required* to provide potential residents with a copy of their contracts up front. They are also required to have a grievance/appeal procedure, which is frequently ignored in malignant programs. The ACGME does not require that the grievance procedure be fair or meaningful, merely that it exists, nor will it intervene in a resident issue. And any attempt at a resident to renegotiate a contract is meaningless. Institutions have been known to publish one contract, prematch during interview season and then hand a completely different contract out post-match.

For its part, the ACGME does have a complaint process which requires an aggrieved resident to submit a signed complaint for the present residency year, and only after a resident has discussed his concerns with the program director or the Designated Institutional Official. In small community programs this is tantamount to professional suicide, and therefore, despite the most outrageous of program behavior, isn't done. Remember at smaller programs that may have only a surgery, internal medicine and ob residency, the DIO and the program directors are frequently golf partners. Further the ACGME goes on to state that it will not get involved in an individual case, it will merely address compliance issues with published standards.

This is not the type of oversight that will make one feel warm and fuzzy about the ACGME mandated resident protections.
 
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A guy in my intern year failed Peds for a number of reasons

1. He didn't show up
2. When he did show up he had a bad attitude
3. His bad attitude doubled as not caring
4. His rotation was out of the hospital so he though no one would notice
5. When he did show up he sat in the corner and read, didn't see patients.
6. No interest in the task at hand.
7. His patient logs were empty.
 
KentW, I beg to differ with you. As you stated, the real world evaluations are highly subjective.
...
The answer to this is absolutely yes. Medicine is filled with people who are extremely bright. There are some who have large, but fragile egos. At some institutions, there is little to no protection afforded residents. A personality conflict can indeed be the reason a resident gets fired. This has happened and is well documented in more than one institution.

Residents have, in fact, been terminated from residency, and threatened with the loss of career, because they called programs on rules violations, or complained about a program's behavior, or posted on this site. There are well documented cases of this.
So it's pretty much the same as in the real world. I know various people who have changed jobs, been invited to resign, etc. for all of the reasons you mentioned. Granted, attendings have more ability to just pick up and move on than a resident who must find another training program but it's all the same, if you don't get along with people, you're a squeaky wheel or you bite the hand that's feeding you you will get screwed.
 
Medicine is filled with people who are extremely bright. There are some who have large, but fragile egos. At some institutions, there is little to no protection afforded residents. A personality conflict can indeed be the reason a resident gets fired.

There's certainly injustice in the world, but that's not the reason that most people fail a rotation or get fired.
 
There's certainly injustice in the world, but that's not the reason that most people fail a rotation or get fired.

Kent, the original question was "Is it possible..." not whether it was common or not, and I suspect that it is more common than many realize.

DocB, yes, it is pretty much like the rest of the world, with one very important and crucial difference: When you are in a bad situation in industry, and if the situation in bad enough, you can always send a resume out to the local head hunter or to the competition and find a new job. You spend a month or three looking, interview, get an offer that you're willing to accept and you give your two weeks notice to your present employer and start your new job a week after that. Usually with a bit of a raise or better benefits.

Not so in medicine. You're stuck where you're at, no matter how bad the program is, how misleading the recruitment package, and for that matter, you get very little say in where you go, thanks the match.
 
Kent, the original question was "Is it possible..." not whether it was common or not. Your concession is noted.

No concession given. I originally said "not likely," not "impossible." Don't put words in my mouth, and don't go looking for an argument where there isn't one.
 
Not looking for an argument. Not trying to put words in your mouth. I have edited my post, and apologize if that's the way it came across.
 
It sounds pretty sad and scary once an intern/resident get fired for some ridiculous reasons,his/her career is basically done since he/she has nowhere to go ( can't transfer to another program due to the bad record).Are there any ways to avoid this from happening?? I mean any objective measures(eg. on performance,professionalism,med.knowledge..etc) that the intern/resident can use to defense himself/herself in face of this kind of situation.
 
I've heard of several residents who were let go for not knowing their medicine, even though they had several chances at remediation.

Then there's one true story of chief resident of ob/gyn who was sleeping with 20 of his patients in exchange for drug prescriptions.
 
to Taurus,
The senario you mentioned are very obvious and i am not refering those extreme cases. What I meant was if an intern started in July/august at a small community program and was put on call SOLO covering floors, he/she may have a hard time in terms of dealing with admissions, critical pts on the floors. With that, the intern may bound to fail rotation and put on probation..etc.In this case, are there any ways to protect the intern?? or just wait to get fired for not having enough medical knowledge?
 
What I meant was if an intern started in July/august at a small community program and was put on call SOLO covering floors, he/she may have a hard time in terms of dealing with admissions, critical pts on the floors. With that, the intern may bound to fail rotation and put on probation..etc.In this case, are there any ways to protect the intern?? or just wait to get fired for not having enough medical knowledge?

It would be extremely unusual for a program to expect a brand-new intern to be able to work without supervision. IMO, if anyone should be fired in that situation, it's the program director.
 
The reason I asked because one of my classmates who interviewed one of these programs in the past and heard about this situations and actually at least few interns were let go. I am not sure if this is true or just part of the story.I just want to find out if there are anything can be done. Of course, everybody knows the PD will never get fired for sure.
 
I asked because one of my classmates who interviewed one of these programs in the past and heard about this situations and actually at least few interns were let go.

If you ever interview at a program where several people have been let go, I suggest you scratch them off your list. I can't imagine a bigger red flag than that, except perhaps a public flogging.
 
The reason I asked because one of my classmates who interviewed one of these programs in the past and heard about this situations and actually at least few interns were let go. I am not sure if this is true or just part of the story.I just want to find out if there are anything can be done. Of course, everybody knows the PD will never get fired for sure.

Be very wary of jumping to conclusions. The incidences of residents being fired for small and simple reasons or even for isolated incidents (unless the isolated incidents involve criminal or truly unethical behavior) are probably vanishingly rare.

That being said, Kent is right. If a program can't hold onto its residents (either because of the program or because of the residents) that is a bad sign.

And PDs are not autonomous dictators who rule by fiat and wield tyrannical power. They have to answer to others too. The department chair, faculty who have to work with the residents, GME, hospital officials, etc.
 
If you ever interview at a program where several people have been let go, I suggest you scratch them off your list. I can't imagine a bigger red flag than that, except perhaps a public flogging.
Excellent point. There is one program that I know that instituted a night float without insuring that there would be adequate backup coverage for the night float intern. This particular program "lost" six residents that I was personally aware of. While the reasons were varied, and in at least two cases, justified, the others were, from the information I have, completely unjustified. These folks have gone on to prosper in new programs. I helped several find new residencies, but it took a long time and they have large and undeserved blemishes on their records.

I agree with yaah that in most ordinary circumstances, particularly in larger, well run programs, that there are checks and balances. I'm not so sure how vanishingly rare this is. This is as it should be. I know of at least three programs where these checks and balances are non-functional. At one of these programs, changes have been made at the executive level, and I'm not sure, but I think with the encouragement of the ACGME.

I am aware of comments from several different former residents of a number of programs in the same state that the program directors have an annual session where they, in the words of one former resident, now faculty in another state, "learn how to punish residents they don't like." I'm not sure what exactly was meant by that, but it was consistent with some of the retaliatiory behaviors I observed directly and learned about. It is also consistent with what others on this board have either directly posted or hinted at.

I also agree with you that a program director who leaves interns on their own on a night float should be fired. There should be no room in medical education for this type of person. Yet, there are a few. At a regional meeting some years ago, one of the program directors there lamented that we need to do something about people like this, because has he said it, "they make us all look bad." Graduating medical students of a well respected medical school near one of these programs strongly discourages their students from considering this particular residency.

As for benjee's question, what to do about it? Keep your mouth shut, head down, and look at figures like program completion rates, ask questions of med students who have rotated through those hospitals you're are considering.

And, most of all, take excellent care of your patients, document the dickens out of everything. If this means reviewing the full medical chart including old records when you get called on a cross cover that is different, do it, even though it is 4AM, you've been running straight for 22 hours and the last thing you want to do is grab the old chart of the puzzling patient that has tanked. And if you, as an intern cannot get a hold of your senior, keep calling up the chain, even if you have to call the attending. At least you can document that you've discussed the problem with someone who is responsible.

Benjee, I hope the program you refer is one of the ones I know about. I used to hope that there was only one like it, but from your description, it sounds astonishing similar to the one I know about.
 
Another thought. Thus far, in this thread, we have suggested that, and I agree that bad programs are hopefully in a very small minority. But, if even one program exists, it is too many.

What we lack, is hard data on these situations. In the world of evidenced based medicine, conjecture and anecdotes should be supplanted by well controlled studies.

I think that the tight controls on the entry pipeline (NRMP/ECFMG), close oversight of the process (RRC/ACGME), and easily garnered statistics (program completion rates, board certification pass rates, licensure statistics), would readily allow the development of a longitudinal study, similar to what the Harvard group did on working conditions that was published last year in JAMA.

Hopefully, it would show that this is not a serious or widespread problem and affirm yaah's opinion that these are vanishingly rare incidents. But, we cannot say that with certainty, supported by evidence.

On the other hand, if such a prospective study were commenced, and it did show there was a problem or perhaps small clusters of problems, it would give us a footing to address the problem. Of course, the uncertainty principle would apply, much like a cop with a radar gun sitting on the side of the highway: Those who would misbehave, might be a tad more circumspect if they thought there was a possibility of being included in the "Results" portion of the article, and that in and of itself would help keep the system self-correcting.

Regardless, there are anecdotes that say it does happen, and these anecdotes are a recurring theme that I have heard and observed over many years.
 
Thanks to those for making reasonable suggestions eg. avoid those problematic programs, checking on the subjective data( completion rate..etc). Actually, my classmate did not rank that program once he noticed this information from a non-faculty, non-resident person.3dtp, I believe we are not talking about the same programs because there were no help at all to those whom were let go, I am not sure what happened to them afterall, all these are only secondhand information.But no matter what,it seems being an intern is pretty much helpless in facing of unfair situations especially in those malignant programs since so far there are not much/or maybe no effective measures to prevent it. I doubt those due process, academic/internal hearing are of any use.
 
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