How does specializing work if you go straight into practice/work?

[vampyrica]

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Howdy. Since we're on the topic of internships and specializing, I have some questions about what that looks like if you go into practice or working straight away. I'm participating in one of the USDA programs where for X amount of years doing the internship and receiving tuition assistance, I owe X amount of work as a VMO. We had some speakers come today and talk about Large Animal medicine. One of them mentioned she went straight into small animal private practice after school, and after a while went to specialize as a equine vet and do surgery. Another mentioned she went straight into the USDA but if she could, would have gone back and specialized in pathology.

Since I am already committed to working after graduation, what does that look like if after my time in the USDA or whatever government sector, I have aspirations to go back and specialize in something. I am definitely interested in preventive medicine but I also find myself dreaming of laboratory animal medicine, pathology, virology and bacteriology. For a path like that, do you have to seek out private/non-MATCH internships or do you have to go through the MATCH? are all residencies through the MATCH only? do your chances of landing an internship go down with each year you are out of school?

I'm only a first year, so I have no idea what my career aspirations will look like even a few months from now, but I know that I would like to do more specialized work in my career. I don't foresee myself doing something like zoo medicine, or surgery, or specializing in a specific species (besides lab animal), but I do love the idea of becoming boarded in preventive medicine or microbiology. I'm not sure if we have any vets on this forum who have gone through this path, but if anyone has any guidance or insight as to how this would work if someone were to go into the work force first, and then go back to specialize, that would be much appreciated!

 

[JaynaAli]

You could apply to any program, match or non-match. Whether they’re in or outside of the match is somewhat specialty dependent. Pathology residencies are exclusively outside of the match. Something like lab animal has a mix of programs within and out of the match. The issue with applying for specialty training after a period of time in practice is that it’s harder to find applicable experiences in the field and maintain/find strong relationships for a good letter of recommendation. Being out for a long time isn’t the issue in and of itself, but it’s harder to show your interest the longer you’re out. Students are surrounded by specialists and opportunity. Finding those opportunities on your own and fitting them in around a full time job is difficult. When I was reviewing pathology resident apps, we’d always have a smattering of practicing vets apply. I’m sure most were perfectly find candidates, but they’d pretty consistently have a decent letter of rec from their GP boss and maybe a letter from one specialist who they shadowed for a handful of hours or who knew them years ago in vet school and maybe they were in path club and they say they like cytology. If you were lucky they’d found someone to shadow recently, but that’s harder and harder to come by now that a lot of pathologists work from home. But Compare them to the student who has three letters of rec all from pathologists who have interacted with them recently, is an officer in path club, can go to more conferences, etc. Who you know is so very important for residencies.

I don’t say that to dissuade you at all and I do know people who did a specialty after a few years out in the ‘real world’ but I’d be dang sure to keep your connections active and be sure you’re interacting with people in the field you might consider in the future.

Another downside that I think deters people who have been “out” is the pay cut they’d have to take several years after becoming accustomed to a “real” salary. Some people simply can’t afford to cut their lifestyle that significantly and take a 50+% pay cut for a residency.

 

[vampyrica]

You could apply to any program, match or non-match. Whether they’re in or outside of the match is somewhat specialty dependent. Pathology residencies are exclusively outside of the match. Something like lab animal has a mix of programs within and out of the match. The issue with applying for specialty training after a period of time in practice is that it’s harder to find applicable experiences in the field and maintain/find strong relationships for a good letter of recommendation. Being out for a long time isn’t the issue in and of itself, but it’s harder to show your interest the longer you’re out. Students are surrounded by specialists and opportunity. Finding those opportunities on your own and fitting them in around a full time job is difficult. When I was reviewing pathology resident apps, we’d always have a smattering of practicing vets apply. I’m sure most were perfectly find candidates, but they’d pretty consistently have a decent letter of rec from their GP boss and maybe a letter from one specialist who they shadowed for a handful of hours or who knew them years ago in vet school and maybe they were in path club and they say they like cytology. If you were lucky they’d found someone to shadow recently, but that’s harder and harder to come by now that a lot of pathologists work from home. But Compare them to the student who has three letters of rec all from pathologists who have interacted with them recently, is an officer in path club, can go to more conferences, etc. Who you know is so very important for residencies.

I don’t say that to dissuade you at all and I do know people who did a specialty after a few years out in the ‘real world’ but I’d be dang sure to keep your connections active and be sure you’re interacting with people in the field you might consider in the future.

Another downside that I think deters people who have been “out” is the pay cut they’d have to take several years after becoming accustomed to a “real” salary. Some people simply can’t afford to cut their lifestyle that significantly and take a 50+% pay cut for a residency.

For the bolded part specifically, I spoke with the USDA vet and she told me that during my time as a VMO, I could request to move around to different departments and work within different sectors. We spoke a little about pathology and she mentioned that after some time I could express an interest in necropsies and performing more path-aligned work, and although not a guarantee, they may transfer me to a different department I could work there. Would something like that help my connections? Let's say most of the veterinarians working in that sector are not boarded pathologists, but could write me an LOR, would their letters hold much weight?

The path club at school had a very competitive Year 1 rep application, but I am hoping to apply for a different position in the spring and try again! I'm currently on the board for the One Health Club and have been on the board since I was a year 0 for the Lab Animal and Research Club. I'm hoping to stay involved in clubs I have a genuine passion for. I even started my own Veterinarians in Public Health club and have a boarded preventive medicine vet as our advisor. Would having those on my resume help despite being a few years out of school, or again, it is "the more recent the experience the better"? I'm hoping to move up to president of lab animal club by third year (I'm currently the secretary and hope to apply to be the VP for next year).

Our pathology professor is just the best, and I have been chatting with him. He offered for me to email him and ask to stop by whenever he's on necropsy cases. He is just wonderful, and I hope to continue maintaining that relationship until graduation (hoping he doesnt retire by then!!!)

 

[JaynaAli]

The more recent the better, but having done those things as a student helps and would be noted. It’s really like vet school apps, the more things and the wider variety of things that you have, the better. You really need boarded pathologists writing you letters of rec for a pathology residency. At least one, bare minimum. Without one, we pretty much tossed an app in the metaphorical garbage. That doesn’t mean that the experiences in necropsy and more path-adjacent tasks you describe aren’t useful, and I actually think that sounds like something good to have on your resume if you know you’re going to be out of school a while, but you still need a boarded pathologist to write you a letter of rec so if you’re not interacting with a pathologist with those tasks, I’d seek one out on the side if you decide you want to pursue pathology in the future.

 

[vampyrica]

The more recent the better, but having done those things as a student helps and would be noted. It’s really like vet school apps, the more things and the wider variety of things that you have, the better. You really need boarded pathologists writing you letters of rec for a pathology residency. At least one, bare minimum. Without one, we pretty much tossed an app in the metaphorical garbage. That doesn’t mean that the experiences in necropsy and more path-adjacent tasks you describe aren’t useful, and I actually think that sounds like something good to have on your resume if you know you’re going to be out of school a while, but you still need a boarded pathologist to write you a letter of rec so if you’re not interacting with a pathologist with those tasks, I’d seek one out on the side if you decide you want to pursue pathology in the future.

Noted okay- thank you!! I'll continue exploring at school and get in on any path opportunities to help figure out if that's the route I want to take. Would you say the same applies to Lab Animal/Virology/Bacteriology etc? I know path is your jam, but I'm wondering if it's all the same across the board? Making sure I have contact with one of those boarded specialists, relevant experience with that field in and out of school, and work directing with that boarded specialist?

For preventive medicine, everyone I work with at the USDA is a boarded preventive specialist, and it seems like the process for that is a bit different because you can either do a formal residency through one of the few programs (or make your own program like how our club advisor did with her PhD) or after 4 years of work and relevant experience, you can sit for the exam. So it seems like that's a totally different ball game?

 

[MixedAnimals77]

N=1
I once worked for a vet who got an intership and subsequent residency in radiology 7 years post graduation with most, maybe all of those years being in the same practice. She was also very active in organized vet med in those 7 years so I imagine had connections that way. She originally went back into it to go for the academia side. Ultimately I think the politics of it was not for her despite her being an amazing teacher.She's jumped around quite a bit at this point and has been out of academia for awhile now.

So not impossible but is definitely more uncommon. I'd have a hard time giving up my pay and work life balance at this point in my life.

 

[JaynaAli]

Tagging @KCgophervet for lab animal insights.

I don’t know what training is required for bacteriology and virology. I mean I know of a couple people who are boarded in those things from my time in school and residency but I don’t know how they got there.

 

[vampyrica]

I'd have a hard time giving up my pay and work life balance at this point in my life.

yeah this is definitely something i have considered. i'm thankful that this tuition assistance knocks my DVM cost down by over 100k, plus i received a scholarship this year so for this first year, i did not have to pay for school and i am incredibly thankful. i'm hoping my debt load post-grad will be low enough that i wouldn't have to include paying loans back in my consideration for going back and specializing (although anything can happen and im not banking on it and going it to with "my dvm will only cost me 50k in loans!", because anything can truly happen)

i will definitely have to see what my partner and i's finances look like by the time i graduate and if it is feasible for me to go back and take such a huge paycut and good benefits.

 

[supershorty]

Would you say the same applies to Lab Animal/Virology/Bacteriology etc? I know path is your jam, but I'm wondering if it's all the same across the board? Making sure I have contact with one of those boarded specialists, relevant experience with that field in and out of school, and work directing with that boarded specialist?

Yes, I think it's safe to say that regardless of specialty, any residency application will require [ideally] multiple letters from boarded specialists in that specialty in order to be a competitive application.

 

[supershorty]

You're only in your first year right now though, I'd caution you that you don't necessarily need to specialize with the career trajectory that you're on, so while it's good to be thinking about things early, you may feel differently by the time you're done with training and with your required commitment.

 

[MixedAnimals77]

yeah this is definitely something i have considered. i'm thankful that this tuition assistance knocks my DVM cost down by over 100k, plus i received a scholarship this year so for this first year, i did not have to pay for school and i am incredibly thankful. i'm hoping my debt load post-grad will be low enough that i wouldn't have to include paying loans back in my consideration for going back and specializing (although anything can happen and im not banking on it and going it to with "my dvm will only cost me 50k in loans!", because anything can truly happen)

i will definitely have to see what my partner and i's finances look like by the time i graduate and if it is feasible for me to go back and take such a huge paycut and good benefits.

I say this as my loans are paid off and I can do what I want after work (ie no studying) BUT I enjoy travelling and at this point we are on the FIRE path trying to retire early/very work optional. Of course everyone has their own desires and paths but I enjoy doing what I want not having to study or do research/write papers. I cut back on working when I had my son and dont plan to work more anytime soon. Plus hubs and I do monthly massages 110% worth it and a once a month house cleaner😅

probably much easier to specialize right after school because youre still in study mode persay.

All of this to say is something I think alot of prevet/vet students dont realize til theyre out of school living life again is theres so much more outside of the career goal. So maybe also consider what does your partner forsee your future together like? How does that specialization potentially affect that vision?

 

[vampyrica]

I say this as my loans are paid off and I can do what I want after work (ie no studying) BUT I enjoy travelling and at this point we are on the FIRE path trying to retire early/very work optional. Of course everyone has their own desires and paths but I enjoy doing what I want not having to study or do research/write papers. I cut back on working when I had my son and dont plan to work more anytime soon. Plus hubs and I do monthly massages 110% worth it and a once a month house cleaner😅

probably much easier to specialize right after school because youre still in study mode persay.

All of this to say is something I think alot of prevet/vet students dont realize til theyre out of school living life again is theres so much more outside of the career goal. So maybe also consider what does your partner forsee your future together like? How does that specialization potentially affect that vision?

You're only in your first year right now though, I'd caution you that you don't necessarily need to specialize with the career trajectory that you're on, so while it's good to be thinking about things early, you may feel differently by the time you're done with training and with your required commitment.

totally understand and completely value your opinions! i did not originally forsee myself as a gov vet when i went into this (this as in vet med), but with recent loan changes and my career interests changing, this internship was very appealing! but in this very moment, i don't believe it's something i'd like to do for the entirety of my career. i'd like to atleast keep my options open and my involvement in these clubs and fields consistent while i'm in school, so that if my time at the USDA is complete, i still have those doors slightly open to revisit.

partner and i are hoping to get engaged anytime between this novemeber and next june. with my family being in greece, i'd like to travel to see them as much as possible since my grandparents are getting up there in age and have complicated health issues (thank you greece for your high cancer rates...). so big expenses are in our future. so while i'm not set on specializing (except for preventive medicine, i know that's something i definitely want to keep on the table and the path to that certification seems a bit more lenient with the work experience option), i'd like to keep my options open and keep exploring while i'm in school so in the chance that i do want to pursue pathology or virology or another -ology specialization, i know for sure it's something i want to do. i hope it doesn't sound naive or juvenile to want to do this, as i know you have already gone through this path before and know what it entails, i just want to make sure that by going into the USDA and completing these requirements doesn't totally eliminate me from being able to go specialize if i want to. that was my only worry with pursuing this path.