How far will a letter from a major donor get me?

[velodork]

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I'm fortunate enough to be family friends with a major donor to one of my reach-high reach schools. I knew this person when I was younger, but have been mostly out of touch for the past ~10 years. Despite this fact, the person found out about my ambitions to apply to med school and reached out to offer a letter.

While I am grateful for the offer, I am not sure if the letter will be as impactful as my other letters written by people that I have worked closely with more recently. Additionally, my stats are below average for the school in question.

How far could a letter like this actually get me? Into an interview? An acceptance? I feel like I would be better off with my other letters as they are more cohesive with my general application, but if a letter like this could actually get me somewhere I might go that route.

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[C@lidoc]

Could def get you an interview. Better have them call though.

 

[Goro]

Interview? Easily?
Acceptance? Only with a large donation check.
If your stats are sub-par for the school, you'll be politely interviewed, then politely wait listed, then politely rejected.

This exact scenario to a friend a mine in college. I think it was his aunt who wrangled him an interview at one of the NYC schools.

I'm fortunate enough to be family friends with a major donor to one of my reach-high reach schools. I knew this person when I was younger, but have been mostly out of touch for the past ~10 years. Despite this fact, the person found out about my ambitions to apply to med school and reached out to offer a letter.

While I am grateful for the offer, I am not sure if the letter will be as impactful as my other letters written by people that I have worked closely with more recently. Additionally, my stats are below average for the school in question.

How far could a letter like this actually get me? Into an interview? An acceptance? I feel like I would be better off with my other letters as they are more cohesive with my general application, but if a letter like this could actually get me somewhere I might go that route.

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[lifetothefullest]

A call would definitely be really helpful if he/she is a major donor like you say. A word of advice: in the real world, people who are where they are got there because of connections. They know people who knew other people who could pull strings for them. A merit-based world may be idealistic, but that's not the game we're playing.

 

[rbnsafsadgf]

I would be careful of getting your application reviewed on its own merits and then having a a big whiff of nepotism turn people off, especially on the West Coast.

 

[velodork]

Interview? Easily?
Acceptance? Only with a large donation check.

The very idea of anyone being able to buy an admission makes me feel pretty uneasy. Does this really happen? I'm kind of torn now. Since the offer was unsolicited I feel like my conscience would rest a bit easier. I would absolutely not agree with this person donating any more than they already have for my sake, though.

 

[rbnsafsadgf]

They know people who knew other people who could pull strings for them. A merit-based world may be idealistic, but that's not the game we're playing.

Poor moral rationalization is not made stronger by effectiveness.

 

[velodork]

I would be careful of getting your application reviewed on its own merits and then having a a big whiff of nepotism turn people off, especially on the West Coast.

West Coast applicant, East Coast school (not that it matters).

A word of advice: in the real world, people who are where they are got there because of connections. They know people who knew other people who could pull strings for them. A merit-based world may be idealistic, but that's not the game we're playing.

Agreed, but that doesn't make me feel any better about it. If it wasn't a school so perfectly ideal for my family's living situation I would probably decline the offer.

 

[Goro]

It happens. These are called 'legacies". Others include people directly related to faculty, or Deans.

Oddly, there are people on SDN who piss and moan about URMs getting an advantage in admissions, but nary a peep about legacy admission.

The very idea of anyone being able to buy an admission makes me feel pretty uneasy. Does this really happen? I'm kind of torn now. Since the offer was unsolicited I feel like my conscience would rest a bit easier. I would absolutely not agree with this person donating any more than they already have for my sake, though.

 

[Toolazytomakeaname]

A call would definitely be really helpful if he/she is a major donor like you say. A word of advice: in the real world, people who are where they are got there because of connections. They know people who knew other people who could pull strings for them. A merit-based world may be idealistic, but that's not the game we're playing.

Wait, What? If this is not the game we're playing then there is no way in hell I'm going to get accepted to a medical school. Is this really how medical schools admission works?

 

[ChemEngMD]

It happens. These are called 'legacies". Others include people directly related to faculty, or Deans.

Oddly, there are people on SDN who piss and moan about URMs getting an advantage in admissions, but nary a peep about legacy admission.

I have found out slowly throughout my M1 year that 5-10 of my classmates are legacy students. Had no idea...they are invisible.

 

[Goro]

It's rare and most legacy interviewees are well below par for med school admissions. Again, a polite interview is ultimately followed by a polite rejection. Immediate rejections don't happen because the schools don't want to piss off their sponsors.

Just do well in your studies and on MCAT, have impressive ECs, and you'll be fine.

Wait, What? If this is not the game we're playing then there is no way in hell I'm going to get accepted to a medical school. Is this really how medical schools admission works?

 

[velodork]

Wait, What? If this is not the game we're playing then there is no way in hell I'm going to get accepted to a medical school. Is this really how medical schools admission works?

No, I don't believe that every single person who is admitted to MS knows a dean/adcom/donor. And for the record, my stats for the school in question are ~10th percentile, so not completely out of the question. I'm a non trad so I'm banking on my PS and ECs to help me stand out from the rest of the 10th percentilers, and this letter to make me stand out even more.

 

[hoihaie]

If only donations of moral support for the schools' sports teams count..... :'(

 

[jjkelly3]

I met someone who had a letter from PritZker, the guy that university of Chicago was named after, and got rejected post interview from there. She had good stats and is a physician now.

 

[Mad Jack]

I have found out slowly throughout my M1 year that 5-10 of my classmates are legacy students. Had no idea...they are invisible.

The older a school, the more alumni they have, and the more likely legacy admissions come into play. Many schools have more legacies than URMs, it's kind of crazy.

 

[ChemEngMD]

I met someone who had a letter from PritZker, the guy that university of Chicago was named after, and got rejected post interview from there. She had good stats and is a physician now.

Which Pritzker? lol Are you talking Abrams Pritzker, the patriarch of the family? The one who passed away in '86? The school was named after him, I'm pretty sure.

Or just some other Pritzker? lol Their family is big - I don't know if Anderson Cooper writing you a letter to Vandy is going to get you in just because he's a Vanderbilt on his mom's side (although maybe the celebrity factor would help lol).

 

[lifetothefullest]

Poor moral rationalization is not made stronger by effectiveness.

As with the third law, "you can't get out of the game." So even if it's not the right way to do things morally, that's how the world works. It's how med school can work, it's how residency works - I'm not saying it's all about connections. But everybody I know how got a good residency, a good job at Goldman, etc. had some sort of connection, explicit or implicit. Sorry to say it, but that's the world.

Also, please don't think this is the norm. But it's always advantageous to have somebody who can put in a good word for you - in any work setting. Merit still gets you places!

 

[sunnysnow7]

Honestly, unless you are a highly-competitive applicant, I wouldn't bother applying with that LOR. Courtesy interviews are costly and stressful and typically end in disappointment.

 

[ChemEngMD]

BTW are they just a donor or are they buddies w the dean, hospital admin, etc?

Because there is always this case: http://www.gainesville.com/article/20080410/NEWS/804100319

"When the committee considered the 2008 application of Benjamin Mendelsohn, the son of a prominent Republican fundraiser and contributor, Mendelsohn had not taken the Medical College Admissions Test, or MCAT, according to three members of the selection committee and two other sources close to the situation. The MCAT is a standard admissions requirement for regular admission to the program, selection committee members said."

Ahh it only makes you think of the the stuff that people do behind the scenes get away with that us peons never get to see.

 

[Lawgiver]

UF another school i wont be applying to.

 

[velodork]

BTW are they just a donor or are they buddies w the dean, hospital admin, etc?

At risk of feeling like I may be revealing too much, their family* name is actually on the building. So yeah, big donor.

Courtesy interviews are costly and stressful and typically end in disappointment.

Duly noted. However, this interview would be in my home town and at the very least an opportunity to visit family.

 

[velodork]

"When the committee considered the 2008 application of Benjamin Mendelsohn, the son of a prominent Republican fundraiser and contributor, Mendelsohn had not taken the Medical College Admissions Test, or MCAT, according to three members of the selection committee and two other sources close to the situation. The MCAT is a standard admissions requirement for regular admission to the program, selection committee members said."

How embarrassing (for UF, that is). For the record, I will be applying with my MCAT.

 

[Lawgiver]

It happens. These are called 'legacies". Others include people directly related to faculty, or Deans.

Oddly, there are people on SDN who piss and moan about URMs getting an advantage in admissions, but nary a peep about legacy admission.

translation: many caucasians don't mind advantageous treatment as long as its other caucasians that are benefiting.

 

[ChemEngMD]

UF another school i wont be applying to.

Don't apply FAU either cause he's a resident there now too lol

At risk of feeling like I may be revealing too much, their name is actually on the building. So yeah, big donor.

If the connections that big just do it lol. If you are ethically okay with that.

 

[Lawgiver]

wow, guess im going to be conducting background checks on ALL the med schools Im considering applying to.

 

[rbnsafsadgf]

Don't apply FAU either cause he's a resident there now too lol.

So, that guy matched 5 or 6 years later?
https://osa.sites.medinfo.ufl.edu/files/2014/03/2014-Match-List-No-Names.pdf

 

[rbnsafsadgf]

If the connections that big just do it lol. If you are ethically okay with that.

I am troubled by this idea of an menu option of an ethical code. It isn't something that he/she needs to be okay with. It needs to be something that holds up generally to ethical examination.

 

[Lawgiver]

So, that guy matched 5 or 6 years later?
https://osa.sites.medinfo.ufl.edu/files/2014/03/2014-Match-List-No-Names.pdf

hmmm I wonder if posting this on reddit would turn into something fun?

 

[rbnsafsadgf]

hmmm I wonder if posting this on reddit would turn into something fun?

See my previous post about ethical behavior. Recommend against.

 

[caffeinemia]

Get the letter and go on the interview! If you weren't going to get in, you weren't going to get in anyway. If it does end up helping you, well then it helped you!

Life isn't fair. Leverage everything you've got towards your goals. I sure as hell am and every other student out there will be. Medical school is total war! (Wait, is it cool to be hardcore or not hardcore these days on SDN? These fads keep changing).

 

[ChemEngMD]

I am troubled by this idea of an menu option of an ethical code. It isn't something that he/she needs to be okay with. It needs to be something that holds up generally to ethical examination.

I just finished with my ethics class taught by one of the top ethics scholars in the country. If there is one thing I learned from it, it's that codes of ethics are never black and white. Every person, industry, country, etc. has their own forms of ethics and that's the way that it is. A culture shapes ethics as much as anything else.

Fortunately for medical ethics we have an altruistic culture that has a generally good idea of what is or is not ethical.

Is the choice of whether or not to utilize a connection that could get you accepted to a med school soley based upon that connection medical ethics? Nope. That's something that is up to an individual's ethical standards.

Stuff like this happens every day and we all know it. You and I may find it unethical but it doesn't mean that it is universally considered unethical.

 

[lifetothefullest]

I am troubled by this idea of an menu option of an ethical code. It isn't something that he/she needs to be okay with. It needs to be something that holds up generally to ethical examination.

I think many of us are and should be troubled by the declining ethical standards of society. But taking a moral stand against it is just going to hurt the applicant in the long run. I agree with you, there is something wrong with a connection-based society where merit only gets you so far. But if you refuse to play the game, you're only hurting yourself. Only do that if there's a way your stand will actually change something.

Stuff like this happens every day and we all know it. You and I may find it unethical but it doesn't mean that it is universally considered unethical.

This guy hit the nail right on the head. For example, Peter Singer thinks that we should donate most of our income away. I think the guy is a crackpot. Doesn't mean that either of us have terrible ethical standards. It just means that we look at things differently.

I'm sorry to be the one to say it, but in the world we live in, social connections can really get you far. You can bet the doctors at the top institutions knew someone who knew someone who pulled the right strings for them. Countless employers have articulated to me that they hire people not because they look good on paper, but because they trust that person to do what's right for their company, whether it be a hospital or a bank. And to have that level of trust for somebody, you have to know them at a social level - that's where the personal connections, references, letters, etc. come in.

 

[ChemEngMD]

Hell, some medical schools allow their medical STUDENTS to write letters of support for applicants that they know on a personal level. If the school trusts you as a student and a human being (and any top school does because they chose you out of a very large and competitive applicant pool) then they will take your word pretty seriously.

On this same note, I have to imagine that every year people who are alumni of a school call up the admissions office and say "hey, my son is applying this year look out for his application" and then they flag that app when it comes through. Does it get them accepted if they aren't qualified? Probably not. If they fall into the range of applicants normally accepted to the school then it could be that little bit that puts them over the top compared to the other borderline applicant.

Do I think this is fair? Nope.
Is it reality? Yep.

 

[nonamechemist]

So, now family friends out of touch for 10 years can serve as letter writers too?

 

[caffeinemia]

Master Wayne left Alfred for some years, but Alfred never lost faith in him. #bromantic

 

[Womb Raider]

It happens. These are called 'legacies". Others include people directly related to faculty, or Deans.

Oddly, there are people on SDN who piss and moan about URMs getting an advantage in admissions, but nary a peep about legacy admission.

It's rare and most legacy interviewees are well below par for med school admissions. Again, a polite interview is ultimately followed by a polite rejection. Immediate rejections don't happen because the schools don't want to piss off their sponsors.

translation: many caucasians don't mind advantageous treatment as long as its other caucasians that are benefiting.

Do you guys actually have any data for this or is this all anecdotal mumbling? The reason people don't ***** about this is because the data isn't there. Please, if you have some reliable info to share (Lawgiver) then put it forward, otherwise you're just spewing racist BS.

To me, legacy admissions really just make sense. (For the record, I don't think they're fair, but it's common sense to see where they are coming from). If you had two equal applicants and one comes from a family that already graduated (and was successful) it's not too hard to see how this would be beneficial for the student. Is this fair? Most would say no - but again, when have medical schools been about what's "fair?"

If we had data to examine we might actually find that legacy acceptances we more likely to do well in school, we just don't know.

I knew a person who's good family friend was actually on the ad com and his father graduated from the school (M.D.). He didn't even get an interview at the school. Good application all around, and higher stats than the school's average. He ended up getting in to a better school elsewhere, but it just goes to show you that this swings both ways. Don't let all of these anecdotal stories scare you - legacy admissions don't play the same role they did generations ago. If you class has legacies, most likely they would've been accepted without the legacy status.

Does it get them accepted if they aren't qualified? Probably not. If they fall into the range of applicants normally accepted to the school then it could be that little bit that puts them over the top compared to the other borderline applicant.

Do I think this is fair? Nope.
Is it reality? Yep.

Haha. This sounds familiar! Funny how your opinion changes. As long as you think it's fair to give people a bump, it's OK.

 

[LizzyM]

So, @Womb Raider you are saying that if we have two equally qualified applicants and one is a legacy and the other is a URM, that the legacy should get preference. Doesn't that perpetuate admission of high SES whites with connections over others, particularly minority candidates?

Connections aren't always everything they seem to be. In the Florida case mentioned above, the Dean ended up resigning and the student's dad ended up doing >2 years in prison for crimes related to campaign money.

 

[Lawgiver]

Do you guys actually have any data for this or is this all anecdotal mumbling? The reason people don't ***** about this is because the data isn't there. Please, if you have some reliable info to share (Lawgiver) then put it forward, otherwise you're just spewing racist BS.

To me, legacy admissions really just make sense. (For the record, I don't think they're fair, but it's common sense to see where they are coming from). If you had two equal applicants and one comes from a family that already graduated (and was successful) it's not too hard to see how this would be beneficial for the student. Is this fair? Most would say no - but again, when have medical schools been about what's "fair?"

If we had data to examine we might actually find that legacy acceptances we more likely to do well in school, we just don't know.

I knew a person who's good family friend was actually on the ad com and his father graduated from the school (M.D.). He didn't even get an interview at the school. Good application all around, and higher stats than the school's average. He ended up getting in to a better school elsewhere, but it just goes to show you that this swings both ways. Don't let all of these anecdotal stories scare you - legacy admissions don't play the same role they did generations ago. If you class has legacies, most likely they would've been accepted without the legacy status.



Haha. This sounds familiar! Funny how your opinion changes. As long as you think it's fair to give people a bump, it's OK.

@Womb Raider

1. Your entire last paragraph is literally "anecdotal mumbling"
2. You can save that disingenuous reverse racism crap for some place like hannity forums
3. You're from Texas?
4. You "reason" like a right-wing hate radio host. (which means you make no sense)

For example. RW hosts always demands hard proof, but always turn around and treat their own "anecdotal mumbling" as being very meaningful and worthy of consideration.

5. Nice sig.

The end, and now on my ignore list.

 

[Mviande29]

Somewhat related: I went to a top school for undergrad and the first few rows at all the major student/family functions were reserved for the legacy students and their families and there are students assigned specifically to care for the families' needs, hahaha. And now that I have graduated, I receive invitations to private admissions presentations for family and friends of alumni given around the country personally by the dean of admissions. It's crazy.

But I agree with Womb Raider. The legacy kids are crazy accomplished because their families have such an incredible amount of resources that it would pretty hard not to grow up very smart and successful. (I agree in the sense that I don't believe legacy students are mediocre, not that they should be chosen over URM students)

 

[Womb Raider]

So, @Womb Raider you are saying that if we have two equally qualified applicants and one is a legacy and the other is a URM, that the legacy should get preference. Doesn't that perpetuate admission of high SES whites with connections over others, particularly minority candidates?

Connections aren't always everything they seem to be. In the Florida case mentioned above, the Dean ended up resigning and the student's dad ended up doing >2 years in prison for crimes related to campaign money.

I don't think legacies should get preference over URMs or vice versa. But I can see the logic in choosing a legacy over someone you have absolutely no connection with. For me (I don't know about others) it boils down to trust and reliability. If "you" know one of their family members or family friends, and they vouch for the applicant, that means something to me. This is the core concept behind rec letters. Different letters from different people carry varying degrees of weight for obvious reasons. Like I said, this may not be "fair" but it is logical.

@Womb Raider

1. Your entire last paragraph is literally "anecdotal mumbling"
2. You can save that disingenuous reverse racism crap for some place like hannity forums
3. You're from Texas?
4. You "reason" like a right-wing hate radio host. (which means you make no sense)

For example. RW hosts always demands hard proof, but always turn around and treat their own "anecdotal mumbling" as being very meaningful and worthy of consideration.

5. Nice sig.

The end, and now on my ignore list.

1. Yes, it was kind of my point to show that these stories are meaningless (including mine). People hear what they want to hear.

Every intelligent debate involves using facts regardless of one's political view.

 

[bonnie12]

I don't think legacies should get preference over URMs or vice versa. But I can see the logic in choosing a legacy over someone you have absolutely no connection with. For me (I don't know about others) it boils down to trust and reliability. If "you" know one of their family members or family friends, and they vouch for the applicant, that means something to me. This is the core concept behind rec letters. Different letters from different people carry varying degrees of weight for obvious reasons. Like I said, this may not be "fair" but it is logical.



1. Yes, it was kind of my point to show that these stories are meaningless (including mine). People hear what they want to hear.

Every intelligent debate involves using facts regardless of one's political view.

Love it. Give admission advantages to the already advantaged....

 

[jjkelly3]

Which Pritzker? lol Are you talking Abrams Pritzker, the patriarch of the family? The one who passed away in '86? The school was named after him, I'm pretty sure.

Or just some other Pritzker? lol Their family is big - I don't know if Anderson Cooper writing you a letter to Vandy is going to get you in just because he's a Vanderbilt on his mom's side (although maybe the celebrity factor would help lol).

Haha no it was Abrams Pritzker.

 

[LizzyM]

I don't think legacies should get preference over URMs or vice versa. But I can see the logic in choosing a legacy over someone you have absolutely no connection with. For me (I don't know about others) it boils down to trust and reliability. If "you" know one of their family members or family friends, and they vouch for the applicant, that means something to me. This is the core concept behind rec letters. Different letters from different people carry varying degrees of weight for obvious reasons. Like I said, this may not be "fair" but it is logical.



1. Yes, it was kind of my point to show that these stories are meaningless (including mine). People hear what they want to hear.

Every intelligent debate involves using facts regardless of one's political view.

The point of letters of recommendation is to get the viewpoint of an unbiased person who knows the candidate. One's family member or family friend is not impartial. Of course, if you are going to get a letter that says, "I am a trustee at the university and I strongly recommend my nephew for admission" it may well be that one has no choice but to interview the nephew or there will be hell to pay. It is not fair, it is logical, but it is not logical that such applicants should be automatic "admits".

 

[Womb Raider]

The point of letters of recommendation is to get the viewpoint of an unbiased person who knows the candidate. One's family member or family friend is not impartial. Of course, if you are going to get a letter that says, "I am a trustee at the university and I strongly recommend my nephew for admission" it may well be that one has no choice but to interview the nephew or their will be hell to pay. It is not fair, it is logical, but it is not logical that such applicants should be automatic "admits".

Fair enough. I guess I have been assuming that people don't "put in a good word" for an applicant if they're utterly unqualified. In other words, if you're a "big name" or very well respected, I doubt you're going to risk tarnishing your own name for someone who isn't at least minimally qualified (e.g. No stoner with a 2.5 GPA, 24 MCAT and no ECs/shadow experience will be getting a legacy call from an alumni). Of course, I'm basing all of this off my experiences and experiences of my friends - I know you probably see all kinds of these requests. Undoubtedly there are people who make these absurd recommendations (as we've seen) but they probably aren't as common as people make them out to be, and these are probably the ones that ultimately get "politely rejected." In my experience, even for the "friend of a friend" or family-connection letters, they still make you earn it / prove yourself to them before they put their name on the line.

 

[ridethecliche]

Oddly, there are people on SDN who piss and moan about URMs getting an advantage in admissions, but nary a peep about legacy admission.

It's rare and most legacy interviewees are well below par for med school admissions.

QFT

 

[Womb Raider]

Legacy interviewees are a completely worthless stat. Give me legacy matriculates and then we'll talk.

 

[Doug Underhill]

As an applicant of lower socioeconomic status, the only places I'm eligible for legacy admission at are prisons.

However, I kind of understand why schools grant interviews to legacies. This is one hell of an adverse funding environment for a lot of research-focused schools and a big donor check can pay for a whole bunch of URM scholarships. If admitting one rich ***** a year means they can do great things with research, patient care, or financial aid that wouldn't otherwise be possible, it's not that great of an evil.

 

[LizzyM]

Fair enough. I guess I have been assuming that people don't "put in a good word" for an applicant if they're utterly unqualified. In other words, if you're a "big name" or very well respected, I doubt you're going to risk tarnishing your own name for someone who isn't at least minimally qualified (e.g. No stoner with a 2.5 GPA, 24 MCAT and no ECs/shadow experience will be getting a legacy call from an alumni). Of course, I'm basing all of this off my experiences and experiences of my friends - I know you probably see all kinds of these requests. Undoubtedly there are people who make these absurd recommendations (as we've seen) but they probably aren't as common as people make them out to be, and these are probably the ones that ultimately get "politely rejected." In my experience, even for the "friend of a friend" or family-connection letters, they still make you earn it / prove yourself to them before they put their name on the line.

Many people have no idea what the average/minimum stats are for med school. Someone may apply to a top tier school with a 3.5/28 and the LOR writer may think that's a great record.

And while many of these applicants get an interview and a perpetual waitlist position, the fact remains that the number of interviews is capped by the school's resources (personnel and space) so each "connected" but unworthy applicant who gets an interview is one less interview slot available to a more qualified but unconnected applicant.

 

[Microglia]

Interestingly, when I applied a couple years back the only school I had connections to (a relative was a high ranking faculty member) ended up being the only school to reject me pre-interview. Hahaha. I didn't leverage the connection or make any mention of it, just wasn't worth it to me and my cycle was going well on it's own. That being said, nepotism is very real in medicine, and ESPECIALLY in residency and faculty position applications. Be very wary of this as your career progresses. Like in business, who likes you can matter much more than your accomplishments. On day 1 of med school they asked students who had at least 1 physician parent to raise their hand in lecture- it was a solid 30-35% of the class. I hear this has been decreasing as time goes on, but apparently ten years ago it was always over 50% of the class.