how hard is it for a DO to get a surgery residency?

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mrh125

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plastics, orthopedics, neurosurgery, cardiovascular surgery anything. Realistically how difficult is it for a doctor to get into these specialties residencies? I'm wondering because my stats are really competitive for DO schools (29 Mcat, 3.62 gpa, really good ecs) and not so much mds. but I want to have as many options open for residency as possible and actually have a fair chance at each speciality. If DOs have significant trouble getting into certain specialities' residency programs it just solidifies by decision to retake the mcat.

I know DO is supposed to be equivalent to MD but I keep hearing DOs have trouble getting into surgery residencies or it's harder for DOs. What's the real deal? Can someone explain this in a simple way? i know the two big residency programs just merged and i dont even know what that happens.

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In 2013 there were 4913 DO graduates. 135 matched AOA general surgery and 47 matched Acgme general surgery, so about 3.7% of DOs went into general surgery last year.

954 of the 17487, or 5.4%, USMDs matched general surgery last year

100 DOs matched AOA orthopedics and 6 matched Acgme orthopedics, which is 2.1% of DOs in the class of 2013.

636 MD seniors matche Acgme orthopedics last year, which is 3.6% of USMD seniors.

The other surgical specialities (ENT, NS, Urology) are more skewed towards MDs because there are fewer AOA spots for those specialities. Use the following links if you want to figure it out.

http://www.nrmp.org/match-data/main-residency-match-data/
https://www.natmatch.com/aoairp/stats/2013prgstats.html

There are no DO plastic surgery residencies and no DOs matched Acgme plastics last year. There are, however, 7 DO plastic surgery fellowships, which require completion of a general surgery residency.

4 DOs matched an Acgme CT surgery fellowship this year (there were 97 spots).
 
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I love how the people that can't even meet the MD average come here demanding the top specialties, which usually only go to the top MD students.

Please retake. I don't want your kind in my profession. People that genuinely believe DO is inferior shouldn't be here.
 
I love how the people that can't even meet the MD average come here demanding the top specialties, which usually only go to the top MD students.

Please retake. I don't want your kind in my profession. People that genuinely believe DO is inferior shouldn't be here.

Where did I say DO is inferior ? You're awfully presumptuous. I don't believe it is inferior I just want to make sure it has all the options MD has. A person also can still have goes and go into any residency program regardless of their mcat score so that's a ****ty metric for you to use to judge people by.
 
In 2013 there were 4913 DO graduates. 135 matched AOA general surgery and 47 matched Acgme general surgery, so about 3.7% of DOs went into general surgery last year.

954 of the 17487, or 5.4%, USMDs matched general surgery last year

100 DOs matched AOA orthopedics and 6 matched Acgme orthopedics, which is 2.1% of DOs in the class of 2013.

636 MD seniors matche Acgme orthopedics last year, which is 3.6% of USMD seniors.

The other surgical specialities (ENT, NS, Urology) are more skewed towards MDs because there are fewer AOA spots for those specialities. Use the following links if you want to figure it out.

http://www.nrmp.org/match-data/main-residency-match-data/
https://www.natmatch.com/aoairp/stats/2013prgstats.html

There are no DO plastic surgery residencies and no DOs matched Acgme plastics last year. There are, however, 7 DO plastic surgery fellowships, which require completion of a general surgery residency.

4 DOs matched an Acgme CT surgery fellowship this year (there were 97 spots).
What is the difference between a fellowship and residency? Can you apply to fellowships instead of residency or are they after residency? If a person completed a fellowship in plastic surgery would they be considered a plastic surgeon?
 
Fellowships are AFTER residency. So to do plastics you would complete a general surgery residency (5 yrs) then do a plastic fellowship after that. Yes you would be a plastic surgeon after that.

Please note that residency has NOTHING to do with your MCAT score. The MCAT gets you into medical school. The COMLEX or USMLE is the test you take to get into residency. There's more to it than that but that's the basic jist.
 
hmm someone gunning for surgery does not seem to know too much about surgery or the path to becoming a doctor heh.... you should shadow a couple surgeons just to make sure before you stress hard about this.

I was all guns blazing for surgery until I actually shadowed, it seems fun but not all that its cracked up to be
 
What is the difference between a fellowship and residency? Can you apply to fellowships instead of residency or are they after residency? If a person completed a fellowship in plastic surgery would they be considered a plastic surgeon?

You go to medical school then you do a residency then you do a fellowship (if you want). You must complete a residency before you can start a fellowship.

Yes, someone who completes a fellowship in plastics would be considered a plastic surgeon.

I'd retake the mcat and apply to MD and DO schools if I were you.
 
Where did I say DO is inferior ? You're awfully presumptuous. I don't believe it is inferior I just want to make sure it has all the options MD has. A person also can still have goes and go into any residency program regardless of their mcat score so that's a ****** metric for you to use to judge people by.
"I know DO is supposed to be equivalent to MD"

Yeah, that sounds like the word choice someone that actually believes both degrees are equal. 🤣
 
plastics, orthopedics, neurosurgery, cardiovascular surgery anything. Realistically how difficult is it for a doctor to get into these specialties residencies? I'm wondering because my stats are really competitive for DO schools (29 Mcat, 3.62 gpa, really good ecs) and not so much mds. but I want to have as many options open for residency as possible and actually have a fair chance at each speciality. If DOs have significant trouble getting into certain specialities' residency programs it just solidifies by decision to retake the mcat.

I know DO is supposed to be equivalent to MD but I keep hearing DOs have trouble getting into surgery residencies or it's harder for DOs. What's the real deal? Can someone explain this in a simple way? i know the two big residency programs just merged and i dont even know what that happens.

A competitive residency is competitive on both sides of the fence. Dead set on ortho? You're going to have to have killer step scores MD or DO. Surgery is generally one of the fairly 'DO-friendly' specialties. CV is a fellowship and the merger this week fixed potential problems with that for DOs.

Do some research on osteopathic medicine, go to the DO schools' websites and see if any interest you in particular. Check out the AACOM college info guide: http://www.aacom.org/resources/bookstore/cib/Documents/2014cib/2014 CIB Complete Small.pdf

If you don't like what you find, go MD. And realize that your "really competitive" stats are very close to really average.
 
You do not need to be a rockstar to match most specialities as an MD. In 2011, 85 out of 119 USMD applicants matched orthopedics with a score between 221-230 (225 is average).
 
"I know DO is supposed to be equivalent to MD"

Yeah, that sounds like the word choice someone that actually believes both degrees are equal. 🤣

sounds like you're pretty damn insecure about being a DO if you're gonna interpret it that way
 
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A competitive residency is competitive on both sides of the fence. Dead set on ortho? You're going to have to have killer step scores MD or DO. Surgery is generally one of the fairly 'DO-friendly' specialties. CV is a fellowship and the merger this week fixed potential problems with that for DOs.

Do some research on osteopathic medicine, go to the DO schools' websites and see if any interest you in particular. Check out the AACOM college info guide: http://www.aacom.org/resources/bookstore/cib/Documents/2014cib/2014 CIB Complete Small.pdf

You do not need to be a rockstar to match most specialities as an MD. In 2011, 85 out of 119 USMD applicants matched orthopedics with a score between 221-230 (225 is average).

If you don't like what you find, go MD. And realize that your "really competitive" stats are very close to really average.

thank you
 
You do not need to be a rockstar to match most specialities as an MD. In 2011, 85 out of 119 USMD applicants matched orthopedics with a score between 221-230 (225 is average).
So what makes ortho so competitive? Or is it declining in popularity? It always seems that's an example of one of the more difficult residencies to get into.
 
plastics, orthopedics, neurosurgery, cardiovascular surgery anything. Realistically how difficult is it for a doctor to get into these specialties residencies? I'm wondering because my stats are really competitive for DO schools (29 Mcat, 3.62 gpa, really good ecs) and not so much mds. but I want to have as many options open for residency as possible and actually have a fair chance at each speciality. If DOs have significant trouble getting into certain specialities' residency programs it just solidifies by decision to retake the mcat.

I know DO is supposed to be equivalent to MD but I keep hearing DOs have trouble getting into surgery residencies or it's harder for DOs. What's the real deal? Can someone explain this in a simple way? i know the two big residency programs just merged and i dont even know what that happens.

Honestly, I don't think your stats are really competive for DO school.. They are competitve but not really competitve. I had a 3.7 sgpa, 3.6cgpa and 29 MCAT , great ecs with 1 pub and only got interviews at 5/10 schools I applied to. Its not as easy as you think it is esp if you want the top DO schools.
 
So what makes ortho so competitive? Or is it declining in popularity? It always seems that's an example of one of the more difficult residencies to get into.

It's competitive. There are 1.5 applicants per Acgme ortho spot. The average board score is a 240, 40% of those who match are from a top 40 school, and 30% of those who match are in AOA (national honor society).

Nevertheless, an average MD, especially those that attend a good school, still has a reasonable chance of matching. This is true for every speciality except plastic surgery.
 
plastics, orthopedics, neurosurgery, cardiovascular surgery anything. Realistically how difficult is it for a doctor to get into these specialties residencies? I'm wondering because my stats are really competitive for DO schools (29 Mcat, 3.62 gpa, really good ecs) and not so much mds. but I want to have as many options open for residency as possible and actually have a fair chance at each speciality. If DOs have significant trouble getting into certain specialities' residency programs it just solidifies by decision to retake the mcat.

I know DO is supposed to be equivalent to MD but I keep hearing DOs have trouble getting into surgery residencies or it's harder for DOs. What's the real deal? Can someone explain this in a simple way? i know the two big residency programs just merged and i dont even know what that happens.
Your stats are competitive for DO and I think you will be a shoo-in... Apply to 7-8 DO schools and 12-13 low tier MD schools. I think you have the potential to get into MD as well if you play your card well.
 
So what makes ortho so competitive? Or is it declining in popularity? It always seems that's an example of one of the more difficult residencies to get into.

Great compensation and straightforward problems/patients, IMHO.
 
I think it is more competitive (relatively not absolute) to match ortho as a DO since there are less AOA spots compared to how many want it (seems like everyone on SDN) with basically no shot at ACGME. Like cliquesh said, an average MD student with average board score and grades at a good school has a solid chance of matching ortho. An average DO student, not so much. However, gen surg is a bit less competitive and average DOs have a decent shot at matching AOA gen surg.
 
I think it is more competitive (relatively not absolute) to match ortho as a DO since there are less AOA spots compared to how many want it (seems like everyone on SDN) with basically no shot at ACGME. Like cliquesh said, an average MD student with average board score and grades at a good school has a solid chance of matching ortho. An average DO student, not so much. However, gen surg is a bit less competitive and average DOs have a decent shot at matching AOA gen surg.

Yep. There were 1.5 applicants per Acgme ortho spot in 2011 and 1.7 applicants per Aoa ortho spot in 2012. The average board score for aoa ortho was a 574 (83rd percentile). The average score for aoa general surgery in 2012 was a 504 (51 percentile)
 
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Worry about getting into medical school before you worry about a specialty. Plenty of my grads go into surgery, and orthopedics too. Plastics is hard for MD grads too.

plastics, orthopedics, neurosurgery, cardiovascular surgery anything. Realistically how difficult is it for a doctor to get into these specialties residencies? I'm wondering because my stats are really competitive for DO schools (29 Mcat, 3.62 gpa, really good ecs) and not so much mds. but I want to have as many options open for residency as possible and actually have a fair chance at each speciality. If DOs have significant trouble getting into certain specialities' residency programs it just solidifies by decision to retake the mcat.

I know DO is supposed to be equivalent to MD but I keep hearing DOs have trouble getting into surgery residencies or it's harder for DOs. What's the real deal? Can someone explain this in a simple way? i know the two big residency programs just merged and i dont even know what that happens.
 
Not that hard if you stay on top of your ****.
 
How good are the osteopathic surgery residencies.
 
I see. I'd like to know more, care to elaborate, sir?

Hmm, where to start...
So when you are an undergrad, surgery can feel like the holy grail of medicine. It is one area in medicine where there is tons of money, lots of prestige, lots of procedures, very little chance of being taken over by another profession. The image that you have of surgery makes it seem like you are basically gonna be a boss, running around, fixing everything and rolling in fat stacks.

So now my experience when shadowing. I shadowed a DO in a group of 5 surgeons (4 MD, 1 DO). Ortho surgeon who works 2 days of surgery, 3 days of office, various weekend call. I shadowed over 3 months of time.
The good:
-The cases in ortho were a lot more varied than I expected and every case really is different. It was cool spending time with elderly who slipped on ice and busted a hip, but then also spending time with kids who broke their arms playing sports. You deal with every age group in ortho. (so this pro is really just to ortho, not necessarily all surgery classes)
- The mixture of clinic and OR is VERY appealing. I think this provides the opportunity to have hard days and easy days and gives you some rest and variability. I could maybe see myself being burnt out by doing just clinic, I feel like I will need to either teach, or do some research, or healthcare admin so that way I would not burn myself out if I was a PCP running a clinic all day every day. I know that I would want to play several different roles in healthcare. I am just one of those that has to always burden myself with too much work haha....
- The money in surgery is still very good. Even with reimbursement rates lowering on some procedures, they still make a lot more than many other specialties.
- The act of surgery seems interesting and every case can be different (I will elaborate in the cons)
- No nurses are going to take your job

The bad:
- It is VERY physically demanding. Like I had no clue how hard it would be. Now I am a young strong buck, but after like 10 hours of standing with little to no food or drink I was pretty spent (and I wasnt even doing the surgery!). After my 10 hours in the OR were up, he left to another hospital to do more surgeries, late into the night. And this is a doc who is wayyy out of school, is partner in his business etc, and he is still running around doing insane days like he is a resident. I have the general impression from other specialties that I shadowed that after residency things do slow down a bit, and especially after 10-20 years out of school things are much much slower. For instance a peds doctor I shadowed was 9-5, 4 days a week with 1 saturday a month... With surgery it doesnt seem that way, seems like you mildly work like a resident until the very end (but this is just n=1).
- You have to LOVE surgery. Like you have to be very very happy in the OR. Like even in the one day I could see a shift in my attitude on different procedures. Like in the beginning I was thinking "wow this is the coolest stuff ever! You get to use this instrument, and this one, and you really get to fix people!" Which is all well and good, but by the end I was like "wow I could see myself increasingly frustrated by having to deal with the minutiae of some anatomy, things slip, parts dont fit in correctly, tools are not working properly or do not fit the cavity like you wish it could." First tendon reattachment of the day seems amazing, last one of the day seems tedious and annoying.

I asked a wise doctor (FM doc) that mentored me "so is it exciting when you get fun procedures to do and have to sort of get messy and think on your feet to fix stuff?" (as he was stitching up a gash in my back... dont ask haha). His response was "when I was young that was exciting, and I almost went into surgery because of that, but now that I am older a perfect day for me is when I do not have to do anything like that and everything is calm." I think some fields of surgery are a young mans sport. I could see how when you get older you might have other things on your mind (billing stuff at work, sick kid, family problems, hobbies you would rather be doing) and I could see how doing intense procedures/surgery would be annoying, time consuming, and physically challenging on days where you really would rather just be back at the office, do your time, and go home that day. I mean I intend to be a passionate doctor who loves his job and loves helping patients, but I am also a realist and know that practicing medicine when you are 50 is going to be different than when you are practicing at 30. Dont believe me? Go shadow some young and old docs. The struggle to perform like a resident when you are old can be taxing (which as a side note is probably why I also believe EM is also not all that its cracked up to be).

Having said all of that, surgery and Ortho in particular has one of the highest rate of job satisfaction of all specialties, and the docs who are in that field tend to work until a very late age (they just start doing hand work instead of big bone and hip work). I definitely intend on going into medical school with a completely open mind and I am absolutely still considering surgical specialties just as much as every other specialty, but my rose colored glasses are off. I think a lot of people say they do not want to deal with all of the crap that is entailed in other specialties (paperwork and insurance crap). Well good and bad news. Bad news is that you will be doing that in every specialty (except maybe rads or path), its not like being a surgeon makes you immune to it. You still have to deal with all of what a FM doc would have to, on top of the 20+ hours of surgery you need to perform a week and the 30+ hours of clinic time. Good news is that I think within the next 10-15 years that ALL specialties will have worked out a lot of these issues that is really drawing people away from medicine and into surgery.

Things are cyclical, there are ups and downs that swap every 10-20 years. I think as the insurance stuff gets settled down and scribes/electronic scribing services pick up and are utilized in more specialties that medicine will again have more of an allure than surgery, as physicians will be able to PRACTICE MEDICINE instead of dealing with bureaucracy and treading through billing crap. We now have like twice the amount of physicians in the senate and in congress than we did 5 years ago. Change is coming. Its just the times man...

So there is my long winded take on surgery.
 
Hmm, where to start...
So when you are an undergrad, surgery can feel like the holy grail of medicine. It is one area in medicine where there is tons of money, lots of prestige, lots of procedures, very little chance of being taken over by another profession. The image that you have of surgery makes it seem like you are basically gonna be a boss, running around, fixing everything and rolling in fat stacks.

So now my experience when shadowing. I shadowed a DO in a group of 5 surgeons (4 MD, 1 DO). Ortho surgeon who works 2 days of surgery, 3 days of office, various weekend call. I shadowed over 3 months of time.
The good:
-The cases in ortho were a lot more varied than I expected and every case really is different. It was cool spending time with elderly who slipped on ice and busted a hip, but then also spending time with kids who broke their arms playing sports. You deal with every age group in ortho. (so this pro is really just to ortho, not necessarily all surgery classes)
- The mixture of clinic and OR is VERY appealing. I think this provides the opportunity to have hard days and easy days and gives you some rest and variability. I could maybe see myself being burnt out by doing just clinic, I feel like I will need to either teach, or do some research, or healthcare admin so that way I would not burn myself out if I was a PCP running a clinic all day every day. I know that I would want to play several different roles in healthcare. I am just one of those that has to always burden myself with too much work haha....
- The money in surgery is still very good. Even with reimbursement rates lowering on some procedures, they still make a lot more than many other specialties.
- The act of surgery seems interesting and every case can be different (I will elaborate in the cons)
- No nurses are going to take your job

The bad:
- It is VERY physically demanding. Like I had no clue how hard it would be. Now I am a young strong buck, but after like 10 hours of standing with little to no food or drink I was pretty spent (and I wasnt even doing the surgery!). After my 10 hours in the OR were up, he left to another hospital to do more surgeries, late into the night. And this is a doc who is wayyy out of school, is partner in his business etc, and he is still running around doing insane days like he is a resident. I have the general impression from other specialties that I shadowed that after residency things do slow down a bit, and especially after 10-20 years out of school things are much much slower. For instance a peds doctor I shadowed was 9-5, 4 days a week with 1 saturday a month... With surgery it doesnt seem that way, seems like you mildly work like a resident until the very end (but this is just n=1).
- You have to LOVE surgery. Like you have to be very very happy in the OR. Like even in the one day I could see a shift in my attitude on different procedures. Like in the beginning I was thinking "wow this is the coolest stuff ever! You get to use this instrument, and this one, and you really get to fix people!" Which is all well and good, but by the end I was like "wow I could see myself increasingly frustrated by having to deal with the minutiae of some anatomy, things slip, parts dont fit in correctly, tools are not working properly or do not fit the cavity like you wish it could." First tendon reattachment of the day seems amazing, last one of the day seems tedious and annoying.

I asked a wise doctor (FM doc) that mentored me "so is it exciting when you get fun procedures to do and have to sort of get messy and think on your feet to fix stuff?" (as he was stitching up a gash in my back... dont ask haha). His response was "when I was young that was exciting, and I almost went into surgery because of that, but now that I am older a perfect day for me is when I do not have to do anything like that and everything is calm." I think some fields of surgery are a young mans sport. I could see how when you get older you might have other things on your mind (billing stuff at work, sick kid, family problems, hobbies you would rather be doing) and I could see how doing intense procedures/surgery would be annoying, time consuming, and physically challenging on days where you really would rather just be back at the office, do your time, and go home that day. I mean I intend to be a passionate doctor who loves his job and loves helping patients, but I am also a realist and know that practicing medicine when you are 50 is going to be different than when you are practicing at 30. Dont believe me? Go shadow some young and old docs. The struggle to perform like a resident when you are old can be taxing (which as a side note is probably why I also believe EM is also not all that its cracked up to be).

Having said all of that, surgery and Ortho in particular has one of the highest rate of job satisfaction of all specialties, and the docs who are in that field tend to work until a very late age (they just start doing hand work instead of big bone and hip work). I definitely intend on going into medical school with a completely open mind and I am absolutely still considering surgical specialties just as much as every other specialty, but my rose colored glasses are off. I think a lot of people say they do not want to deal with all of the crap that is entailed in other specialties (paperwork and insurance crap). Well good and bad news. Bad news is that you will be doing that in every specialty (except maybe rads or path), its not like being a surgeon makes you immune to it. You still have to deal with all of what a FM doc would have to, on top of the 20+ hours of surgery you need to perform a week and the 30+ hours of clinic time. Good news is that I think within the next 10-15 years that ALL specialties will have worked out a lot of these issues that is really drawing people away from medicine and into surgery.

Things are cyclical, there are ups and downs that swap every 10-20 years. I think as the insurance stuff gets settled down and scribes/electronic scribing services pick up and are utilized in more specialties that medicine will again have more of an allure than surgery, as physicians will be able to PRACTICE MEDICINE instead of dealing with bureaucracy and treading through billing crap. We now have like twice the amount of physicians in the senate and in congress than we did 5 years ago. Change is coming. Its just the times man...

So there is my long winded take on surgery.
lol what an insightful summary. You should write a book on this, man. Maybe you can get some of the gunners to reconsider. Thanks for taking the time to share 🙂
 
That was a great post Awesome. I can't stay the idea of surgery and I read the whole thing

👍
 
By the time we match it will be the same as MD surg residencies. Same accreditation board and all...
Just because a residency is acgme accredited doesn't mean it is good. There are plenty of terrible acgme residencies.
 
I mean I tell you I was SHOCKED on how I felt towards it. I went in expecting that I after that experience I would be gunning for Ortho for life. Even my wife was almost bothered that I didn't like it as much as I thought, because prior to shadowing it was something I really wanted to do. I think learning what types of things you don't want to do is just as important as learning what you do want to do...
Never know until you step into their shoes. Makes me excited for 3rd and 4th year : )

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Just because a residency is acgme accredited doesn't mean it is good. There are plenty of terrible acgme residencies.
It will be good for the DO gas programs right?
 
I suppose. Many aoa anesthesia programs lack trauma and/or transplant exposure, which would prevent these programs from receiving acgme accreditation. These programs will need to forge relationships with hospitals that have trauma/transplant or face being shut down.
 
I mean I tell you I was SHOCKED on how I felt towards it. I went in expecting that I after that experience I would be gunning for Ortho for life. Even my wife was almost bothered that I didn't like it as much as I thought, because prior to shadowing it was something I really wanted to do. I think learning what types of things you don't want to do is just as important as learning what you do want to do...
Never know until you step into their shoes. Makes me excited for 3rd and 4th year : )

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ces't la vie. at least you wouldn't have charged into ortho with overexpectations, then end up being one of those bitter prunes who hate being alive.
 
I suppose. Many aoa anesthesia programs lack trauma and/or transplant exposure, which would prevent these programs from receiving acgme accreditation. These programs will need to forge relationships with hospitals that have trauma/transplant or face being shut down.
Remember it is easier to have an existing program grow than make a new one. With acgme looking over all residencies, there is a chance they'd prefer to inject money into them than have them die.
 
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