how hard is it to specialize as a DO?

[JakeSill]

For example, neuro?

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[leonardodicaprio1992]

I have heard it is much harder in academic medicine (such as like a university hospital) but I feel that with the advent of the profession, it will get much better. Neuro will definately be very hard. However, if you do great on your boards and get great letters of rec, it is possible.

 

[deleted407021]

Neuro as in neurology or neurosurgery? Because the difference is important 😉


Discussed ad nauseam. Look around the forums, Google match lists and look at some random residency programs and see how many DOs you find.

 

[studentdocftw]

All about boards...my friend is a D.O. and matched urological surgery. Moral of the story? It'll be more difficult to be sure...but an awesome score will make up for it.

 

[DrEnderW]

The first comment is an exaggeration. Neurology has one of the highest match rates for independent applicants (DO/IMG) and isn't particularly competitive. Currently there are also protected AOA neurology programs as well.

 

[Goro]

Not hard. About 1/3rd of my students get ACGME residencies in specialties. ~ 5% in ROADs includes military, AOA and ACGME). You will have to work harder than the avg. MD students, but it's doable.

The oldest and more traditional COMs tend to have more grads go into AOA residencies.

About 1% of all of my grads have gone into Neuro, all ACGME.

I have heard it is much harder in academic medicine (such as like a university hospital) but I feel that with the advent of the profession, it will get much better. Neuro will definately be very hard. However, if you do great on your boards and get great letters of rec, it is possible.

 

[NoTownPreMed]

There's a DO resident who matched into my hospital's ortho surgery program. A program that accepts graduates from Stanford, USC, Duke, and UC colleges, this DO resident made it. Just as others above mentioned, it is definitely possible, but you're going to have to go above and beyond than your MD counterpart.

 

[Cardboard101]

.

 

[Seth Joo]

For example, neuro?

Neurology is doable is a DO, but some fields are tough, matching into a top academic IM program is going to be an uphill battle like Internal Medicine at Harvard, Yale, etc. You can specialize as a DO but you will have to work harder to prove yourself, do better on the boards, get excellent letters of recommendation, etc, its possible, but it will not come in your hand like those in top MD schools.

A friend of mine at LECOM told me that one of his friends got into a Ophthalmology MD residency at Cornell, I tried to verify this myself but found no DO let alone a LECOM graduate there.

 

[lyana]

We have a neurosurgeon who is a DO, I would say its possible 🙂

 

[Goro]

Ortho doesn't seem to excite my students....~1.5% go into it, nearly all via AOA.

There's a DO resident who matched into my hospital's ortho surgery program. A program that accepts graduates from Stanford, USC, Duke, and UC colleges, this DO resident made it. Just as others above mentioned, it is definitely possible, but you're going to have to go above and beyond than your MD counterpart.

 

[Bandwagon1]

Neurology is doable is a DO, but some fields are tough, matching into a top academic IM program is going to be an uphill battle like Internal Medicine at Harvard, Yale, etc. You can specialize as a DO but you will have to work harder to prove yourself, do better on the boards, get excellent letters of recommendation, etc, its possible, but it will not come in your hand like those in top MD schools.

A friend of mine at LECOM told me that one of his friends got into a Ophthalmology MD residency at Cornell, I tried to verify this myself but found no DO let alone a LECOM graduate there.

There actually is a DO from NYCOM who is currently an opthalmology resident there. However, on the residents list he has an MD next to his name instead of a DO, but his med school is listed as NYCOM.

 

[Cardboard101]

There actually is a DO from NYCOM who is currently an opthalmology resident there. However, on the residents list he has an MD next to his name instead of a DO, but his med school is listed as NYCOM.

They do that in a lot of hospitals. All the DOs at the hospital I volunteer at have MD after their names, even on the paperwork.

 

[Seth Joo]

There actually is a DO from NYCOM who is currently an opthalmology resident there. However, on the residents list he has an MD next to his name instead of a DO, but his med school is listed as NYCOM.

I looked on their webpage, there are two IMGs and one DO.

 

[NoTownPreMed]

.

 

[NoTownPreMed]

I looked on their webpage, there are two IMGs and one DO.

The other two are FMGs, while the DO resident have ties with the NY community.

 

[asdf123g]

Pretend DO's didn't self select into PC, what % then would you guys say would be able to specialize based on their scores? I get the impression its 60:40 PC with self selection into PC. Would that be reversed (in theory)?

 

[Bones 2020]

They do that in a lot of hospitals. All the DOs at the hospital I volunteer at have MD after their names, even on the paperwork.

Interesting. The DO I shadowed has MD on his badge, but lists all paperwork and emails as DO

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Neurology is doable is a DO, but some fields are tough, matching into a top academic IM program is going to be an uphill battle like Internal Medicine at Harvard, Yale, etc. You can specialize as a DO but you will have to work harder to prove yourself, do better on the boards, get excellent letters of recommendation, etc, its possible, but it will not come in your hand like those in top MD schools.

A friend of mine at LECOM told me that one of his friends got into a Ophthalmology MD residency at Cornell, I tried to verify this myself but found no DO let alone a LECOM graduate there.

The FMGs are people who went to med school in there home countries not Americans who went to the carribean. Big difference.

ACGME optho is doable as a DO. Seen some impressive matches there.

 

[echo87]

There's a DO resident who matched into my hospital's ortho surgery program. A program that accepts graduates from Stanford, USC, Duke, and UC colleges, this DO resident made it. Just as others above mentioned, it is definitely possible, but you're going to have to go above and beyond than your MD counterpart.

Which hospital and what school is the DO from?

 

[NoTownPreMed]

Which hospital and what school is the DO from?

UCSF-Fresno.

 

[becomingdoctor]

Neurology is doable is a DO, but some fields are tough, matching into a top academic IM program is going to be an uphill battle like Internal Medicine at Harvard, Yale, etc. You can specialize as a DO but you will have to work harder to prove yourself, do better on the boards, get excellent letters of recommendation, etc, its possible, but it will not come in your hand like those in top MD schools.

A friend of mine at LECOM told me that one of his friends got into a Ophthalmology MD residency at Cornell, I tried to verify this myself but found no DO let alone a LECOM graduate there.

Yes, there is a second year from nycom, not lecom. The rest of their residents are from top MD programs.

 

[AsianPersuasion]

There's a female DO student from UNE at Brown in their intern OBGYN program. I heard this year's OBGYN was really competitive. If I'm correct I think she might be the first.

 

[becomingdoctor]

There's a female DO student from UNE at Brown in their intern OBGYN program. I heard this year's OBGYN was really competitive. If I'm correct I think she might be the first.

I would not call it competitive: 1173 applicants and 1002 matched ~85% matched. The average usmle score for Ob is consistently below the national testing average (or very close to). My impression about Ob is they love primary care but don't want to give up surgery/cancer care. In general, Ob is not as competitive as internal med, especially in large academic centers.

 

[allantois]

All the talk about this or that DO in one competitive field or another is anecdotal evidence. There 's a DO plastic surgeon in my community; however unless you know that he scored in top 1% on USMLE, you wouldn't have the whole picture.

 

[AsianPersuasion]

I would not call it competitive: 1173 applicants and 1002 matched ~85% matched. The average usmle score for Ob is consistently below the national testing average (or very close to). My impression about Ob is they love primary care but don't want to give up surgery/cancer care. In general, Ob is not as competitive as internal med, especially in large academic centers.

I think what's more important is the fact that even though one DO student got in (may or may not be competitive ) into an ACGME program like Woman & Infants, means that PD are starting to consider DO students and are willing to give them chance.

 

[cliquesh]

Pretend DO's didn't self select into PC, what % then would you guys say would be able to specialize based on their scores? I get the impression its 60:40 PC with self selection into PC. Would that be reversed (in theory)?

A 230ish, or about average, on the usmle is good enough for DOs to match anything "DO friendly" at a university hospital. More specifically, a 230 is good enough for family, neuro, Ob/gyn, psych, IM, EM, family, peds, anesthesia, PM&R, radiology, and pathology. I had classmates match general surgery and opthalmology at university programs with low 230 usmle scores as well.

Do you need a 230 to match acgme family? No. I'm just saying doing about average on the usmle will open a lot doors. What kind of scores do you need for acgme derm, rad/onc, urology, ENT, ortho, urology? I don't know.

Anyway, to answer your question: I don't think many DOs break the 230 point. Only 50% of DOs take the usmle and I would be surprised if the average usmle score for DOs is at the national mean (230ish). Additionally, I think it's somewhat rare to see exceptional scores from osteopathic medical students. For instance, there were maybe 3 to 5 people in my class with scores above 240.

Also, just to be clear, an amazing usmle cannot overcome all of the discrimination DOs experience. Do not expect to crush the usmle and match acgme Ortho. It doesn't work that way.

 

[asdf123g]

A 230ish, or about average, on the usmle is good enough for DOs to match anything "DO friendly" at a university hospital. More specifically, a 230 is good enough for family, neuro, Ob/gyn, psych, IM, EM, family, peds, anesthesia, PM&R, radiology, and pathology. I had classmates match general surgery and opthalmology at university programs with low 230 usmle scores as well.

Do you need a 230 to match acgme family? No. I'm just saying doing about average on the usmle will open a lot doors. What kind of scores do you need for acgme derm, rad/onc, urology, ENT, ortho, urology? I don't know.

Anyway, to answer your question: I don't think many DOs break the 230 point. Only 50% of DOs take the usmle and I would be surprised if the average usmle score for DOs is at the national mean (230ish). Additionally, I think it's somewhat rare to see exceptional scores from osteopathic medical students. For instance, there were maybe 3 to 5 people in my class with scores above 240.

Also, just to be clear, an amazing usmle cannot overcome all of the discrimination DOs experience. Do not expect to crush the usmle and match acgme Ortho. It doesn't work that way.

if i get into medschool i dont expect to crush the COMLEX or USMLE tbh. Im pretty avg intelligence and I know it.

 

[cliquesh]

if i get into medschool i dont expect to crush the COMLEX or USMLE tbh. Im pretty avg intelligence and I know it.

Board exams are more knowledge tests than intelligence tests. If you work hard there is no reason you cannot do well. The usmle/Comlex uses different skills than the mcat/sat.

 

[oOKawaiiOo]

Im pretty avg intelligence and I know it.

Im stupid but very hard working and ambitious.

 

[UTsksk]

The IMGs are people who went to med school in there home countries not Americans who went to the carribean. Big difference.

ACGME optho is doable as a DO. Seen some impressive matches there.

Isn't it the opposite? In regards to the US, IMG are American students who go abroad for school and come back to practice back in the US. FMG's are students from other countries who went to school in their home country and come to the US to practice. You're right though, there is a big difference.

 

[NoTownPreMed]

Isn't it the opposite? In regards to the US, IMG are American students who go abroad for school and come back to practice back in the US. FMG's are students from other countries who went to school in their home country and come to the US to practice. You're right though, there is a big difference.

Correct.

 

[JakeSill]

Do you need a 230 to match acgme family? No. I'm just saying doing about average on the usmle will open a lot doors. What kind of scores do you need for acgme derm, rad/onc, urology, ENT, ortho, urology? I don't know.

There are Derm, Ortho, Diagnostic rad, Urology, Ortho, urology AOA residencies. Just curious, why would one want to get into an ACGME one?

 

[AlteredScale]

There are Derm, Ortho, Diagnostic rad, Urology, Ortho, urology AOA residencies. Just curious, why would one want to get into an ACGME one?

Usually better location as well as research opps at arms length (if it is a university affiliated community or university hospital) that assist in building your application when applying for fellowship.

For the most part, AOA programs are community hospitals that do not provide the same resources as would a solid ACGME university program.

 

[allantois]

There are Derm, Ortho, Diagnostic rad, Urology, Ortho, urology AOA residencies. Just curious, why would one want to get into an ACGME one?

Just wait until they shut down by 2020; with remaining opening up for MD students.

 

[SpicyFalafel]

Usually better location as well as research opps at arms length (if it is a university affiliated community or university hospital) that assist in building your application when applying for fellowship.

For the most part, AOA programs are community hospitals that do not provide the same resources as would a solid ACGME university program.

would it matter when it comes to become attending physician? AOA vs. ACGME.

 

[AlteredScale]

would it matter when it comes to become attending physician? AOA vs. ACGME.

IMHO no, if you just want to be an attending then you'll get there either way.

If you want a career in academic medicine or are considering becoming a clinician scientist then an ACGME program with as many resources within your particular field of research will benefit.

 

[allantois]

would it matter when it comes to become attending physician? AOA vs. ACGME.

Unless an ACGME board throws your AOA training under the bus and refuses you board certification.

 

[SpicyFalafel]

Just wait until they shut down by 2020; with remaining opening up for MD students.

would not they have GME programs as alternative option beside ACGME?

Edit: Military

 

[SpicyFalafel]

Unless an ACGME board throws your AOA training under the bus and refuses you a board certification.

would you elaborate on this please?

 

[allantois]

would you elaborate on this please?

I'm not the best person to elaborate: for instance my DO dermatologist trained at a program which has been discontinued recently. She has AOA board certification, the question is whether the GME board (which is really the old ACGME board) will issue her a board certification? Now, that they took over AOA programs, it remain to be seen whether they will want to monopolize on board certifications as well.

This will not be an issue for you as all AOA programs will be dually accredited by ACGME when it comes time for you to apply to residencies.

 

[becomingdoctor]

I'm not the best person to elaborate: for instance my DO dermatologist trained at a program which has been discontinued recently. She has AOA board certification, the question is whether the GME board (which is really the old ACGME board) will issue her a board certification? Now, that they took over AOA programs, it remain to be seen whether they will want to monopolize on board certifications as well.

This will not be an issue for you as all AOA programs will be dually accredited by ACGME when it comes time for you to apply to residencies.

There shouldn't be any issue after some AOA programs' closure. Some acgme programs have been closed before (Howard U EM etc.) But it shouldn't affect the graduates as long as by the time the person graduate, the program is still alive (doesn't matter AOA or acgme).
AOA board certification will not disappear in the near future as long as DO still exists as an unique entity.

 

[samac]

In my 9 months on SDN I think I've seen this thread at least 5 times across this forum and the med student one.
Can I introduce you to the search function?

 

[cliquesh]

There are Derm, Ortho, Diagnostic rad, Urology, Ortho, urology AOA residencies. Just curious, why would one want to get into an ACGME one?

Here is some match data for AOA residencies. http://data.aacom.org/media/DO_GME_match_2012.pdf. You need around a 600 (85th+ percentile) to be competitive for the above AOA specialities. Additionally, there are 1.7 to 2.5 applicants per spot for those specialities, so it's pretty competitive.

I don't know the future of these AOA programs, especially the surgical ones. They may or may not survive the merger.

 

[Gandyy]

In my 9 months on SDN I think I've seen this thread at least 5 times across this forum and the med student one.
Can I introduce you to the search function?

Why are many of your posts so aggressive?

 

[IslandStyle808]

In my 9 months on SDN I think I've seen this thread at least 5 times across this forum and the med student one.
Can I introduce you to the search function?

The dynamic of the question in this case changes with time. With the merger and increasing schools, there will be less spots than before. DOs are also matching better than before. So while some things will still hold true, but others may change.

 

[Henry101]

I don't know the future of these AOA programs, especially the surgical ones. They may or may not survive the merger.

Let's take neurosurgery as an example. Some programs have already decided to hold off taking students this cycle (I believe Cooper didn't take a neurosurgery student this cycle). On the other hand, despite the merger, two new AOA Neurosurgery residency programs started this year (Desert Regional in CA and Oakwood in MI). One could reasonably assume that these two programs knew about the merger and that they are ready to "meet" the "standards" the ACGME will ask of them.

[Meanwhile, I also believe it is germane to state that the Neurosurgery program at Ceders Sinai, also in Southern California, is likely to close down in the next year, thus increasing applicants to the CA program. I also believe it's germane to say that Desert Regional is in UC Riverside's immediate backyard and, despite this, the hospital decided to start the AOA residency program instead of partnering with UCR's new medical school. This is probably because Desert Regional used to be a rotating site for Arrowhead's neurosurgery program, the largest AOA neurosurgery residency program in the country.]

My general idea, with my limited knowledge/understanding, is that some programs will close but the new programs will replace those seats with stronger programs and not much will change in the long run except wider recognition of the DO degree.
Just my 2 cents.
If my understanding is wrong or you know something to the contrary, please feel free to correct me.

 

[metromed]

It's almost as if everyone here lives in a dream world. Pro-tip: if a match seems mindblowing and you recall that nearly 1/3rd of med students have one physician parent, you should be able to connect two and two.

 

[Gandyy]

It's almost as if everyone here lives in a dream world. Pro-tip: if a match seems mindblowing and you recall that nearly 1/3rd of med students have one physician parent, you should be able to connect two and two.

Kind of......

That is all.

 

[samac]

Why are many of your posts so aggressive?

I'm in no way aggressive. I'm legitemitally pointing out the search function.
No need to be offended.