How has the relative competitiveness of specialties changed over time?

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Peskywabbit505 said:
Yes, that's correct. I will listen to your ancient wisdom when you tell me things like," It's too early to talk about that" or " Focus on getting into a good college first". That is EXCELLENT advice, Because it gives me a few pointers and tips I'll need to GET THERE. But when someone starts spouting," You can't" or " It'll never happen, too unrealistic", that's when I stop listening; because I don't need that ****ty naysayer mindset in any area of my life! Much less my dreams! I keep the mindset of a champion that says," Yes, you can!". I realize that the road is going to be hard and it's going to suck ass, but NO ONE is going to tell me I can't. Because that's not the mindset of a champion; that's the mindset of a loser.
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Well, it's confirmed then. You are definitely part of the millenial generation.
 
Peskywabbit505 said:
I think I've already addressed this particular statement. My calling may change in the future, and I welcome it if it does! But for now that is the last hurdle on a journey I've barely begun, so there's that. And I am NOT considering this particular career for the title nor the money. Those things don't make you happy! I'm considering it because I genuinely want to help people, I'm fascinated by medicine, and I just outright want to find my purpose in life. The money and prestige aren't really a factor. So if you could enter this convo without accusing me of wanting the title, rather than the job, that'd be just peachy.
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Come on buddy- you don't know anything about the job so why else would you want it besides title and money? You don't have to impress anyone here. Just be real. And those bolded parts can be satisfied by almost every job in the healthcare field. IMO, there's zero wrong about wanting something for title and money, no judgment on my part - the problem is what I wrote: pure instrumental motivation rarely succeeds long term. I talk from personal experience (my own shortcomings).
 
greenlion said:
Come on buddy- you don't know anything about the job so why else would you want it besides title and money? You don't have to impress anyone here. Just be real. And those bolded parts can be satisfied by almost every job in the healthcare field. IMO, there's zero wrong about wanting something for title and money, no judgment on my part - the problem is what I wrote: pure instrumental motivation rarely succeeds long term. I talk from personal experience (my own shortcomings).
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Yeah, I understand that. I think I'd put the title at around #4 on my list of motives, behind finding my purpose in life (#1), my ILL-INFORMED fascination of medicine and the brain (#2), and wanting to help people and inject a syringe full of satisfaction in my own life (#3). I'm being as real as I can, sir; money and title aren't my main motives, I'm being honest.
 
Peskywabbit505 said:
Yes, that's correct. I will listen to your ancient wisdom when you tell me things like," It's too early to talk about that" or " Focus on getting into a good college first". That is EXCELLENT advice, Because it gives me a few pointers and tips I'll need to GET THERE. But when someone starts spouting," You can't" or " It'll never happen, too unrealistic", that's when I stop listening; because I don't need that ****ty naysayer mindset in any area of my life! Much less my dreams! I keep the mindset of a champion that says," Yes, you can!". I realize that the road is going to be hard and it's going to suck ass, but NO ONE is going to tell me I can't. Because that's not the mindset of a champion; that's the mindset of a loser.
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Please return to this thread when you eventually decide on dermatology or radiation oncology 8-9 years from now.
 
Peskywabbit505 said:
Yeah, I understand that. I think I'd put the title at around #4 on my list of motives, behind finding my purpose in life (#1), my ILL-INFORMED fascination of medicine and the brain (#2), and wanting to help people and inject a syringe full of satisfaction in my own life (#3). I'm being as real as I can, sir; money and title aren't my main motives, I'm being honest.
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Neurologist, then. Neuroscientist? Psychiatrist? Neuropsychologist?

Bolded: or perhaps a junkie? (kidding)

In anycase, despite the disney movies, just because they're naysayers doesn't mean they're wrong.
 
greenlion said:
Neurologist, then. Neuroscientist? Psychiatrist? Neuropsychologist?

Bolded: or perhaps a junkie? (kidding)

In anycase, despite the disney movies, just because they're naysayers doesn't mean they're wrong.
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But if I accept their very grim philosophy and mindset, something tells me that I won't make it very far when college rolls around. And not Disney movies, Arnold Swartzenegger, my friend. 😉
 
Peskywabbit505 said:
But if I accept their very grim philosophy and mindset, something tells me that I won't make it very far when college rolls around. And not Disney movies, Arnold Swartzenegger, my friend. 😉
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Imagine working an insane amount of hours and sacrificing more than a decade of your life for a speciality with some of the poorest outcomes. You'll be operating on ppl for entire shifts (9+ hrs) that may not survive or who'll end up disabled. You'll do your absolute best on a lengthy operation only to get sued later on. And you'll become very acquainted with the monster that is degenerative spine disease.
Some ppl are definitely cut out for this. They willingly accept these challenges. And that's great, because we absolutely need neurosurgeons. And there's nothing wrong with curiosity and ambition, but you're coming off as pretentious and arrogant. I guess that's ok with pick-up basketball (and other leisure activities), but definitely not with something this serious.
 
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greenlion said:
Neurologist, then. Neuroscientist? Psychiatrist? Neuropsychologist?

Bolded: or perhaps a junkie? (kidding)

In anycase, despite the disney movies, just because they're naysayers doesn't mean they're wrong.
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And yes, IT DOES mean they're wrong, sir. People like @DermViser say that it absolutely WILL NOT happen; that's a bunch of bullhunky,
Cyberdyne 101 said:
Imagine working an insane amount of hours and sacrificing more than a decade of your life for a speciality with some of the poorest outcomes. You'll be operating on ppl for entire shifts (9+ hrs) that may not survive or who'll end up disabled. You'll do your absolute best on a lengthy operation only to get sued later on. And you'll become very acquainted with the monster that is degenerative spine disease.
Some ppl are definitely cut out for this. And they willingly accept these challenges. And that's great, because we absolutely need neurosurgeons. And there's nothing wrong with curiosity and ambition, but you're coming off as pretentious and arrogant. And I guess that's ok with pick-up basketball (and other leisure activities), but definitely not with something this serious.
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I understand where you're coming from, but I don't think you understand where I'm coming from. I may not be cut out for the job, but I know that it's possible. I may go to med school and find out that neuro sucks and I want to do something else; that's just fine and dandy. But where I think you derive arrogance from is where I say that I think it's possible for me to do it; when I say that no matter high the mountain, I stand at the bottom and say," Let's climb this Motherf*cker!". I'm nervous, I'm scared for the future, and I'm afraid neurosurgery will chase me away,...but I just want to reassure myself that I can, if you get what I mean.
 
Peskywabbit505 said:
Well it's process of elimination for me, really:
1. I want to be a doctor because I want to help people.
2. I want to be a surgeon because I thrive under stress and want to help people in an impactful way
3. The nervous system is the only thing interesting enough for me worth sacrificing so much of my life to learn to operate on
Therefore, I want to be a neurosurgeon. Makes sense, yes?
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I never said that you can't do it. I actually encourage ppl to explore fields like neurosurgery. Although, this post reeks of pretentiousness and some arrogance (or maybe your naivety is coming off as arrogance).
I'm not attacking you, but you are giving ppl enough reasons to roll their eyes.
 
Peskywabbit505 said:
And yes, IT DOES mean they're wrong, sir. People like @DermViser say that it absolutely WILL NOT happen; that's a bunch of bullhunky,

I understand where you're coming from, but I don't think you understand where I'm coming from. I may not be cut out for the job, but I know that it's possible. I may go to med school and find out that neuro sucks and I want to do something else; that's just fine and dandy. But where I think you derive arrogance from is where I say that I think it's possible for me to do it; when I say that no matter high the mountain, I stand at the bottom and say," Let's climb this Motherf*cker!". I'm nervous, I'm scared for the future, and I'm afraid neurosurgery will chase me away,...but I just want to reassure myself that I can, if you get what I mean.
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Congrats on finishing MS3! Oh wait...
 
Peskywabbit505 said:
That's the thing, I was under the impression the med schools were actually impressed by such a hard major, but apparently that's not the case.
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The thing is that doing something just because other people find it impressive is almost always sets you up for disappointment. What happens if you don't succeed? If, four years from now, you find that you earned an engineering degree with a 2.8 average, are you going to be happy because you enjoyed what you studied, or are you going to feel like **** because you spent years of your life doing something that you hated and didn't even manage to get the reward of prestige that you were looking for?

Even if you do succeed, beating the odds and and ending up in the most successful one percent, you usually find that whatever prestige you've earned isn't nearly as much as you thought it would be.

Sure, you might not want to study engineering anymore, but the fact that you originally wanted to study engineering just because you thought other people would find it impressive makes us a bit suspicious of your motivations for becoming a neurosurgeon.
 
DermViser said:
🙄
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I know, right? Can you see that hokey quote coming out of this face?
dorman-portrait.jpg


He will lead millions!
 
Peskywabbit505 said:
I think I've already addressed this particular statement. My calling may change in the future, and I welcome it if it does! But for now that is the last hurdle on a journey I've barely begun, so there's that. And I am NOT considering this particular career for the title nor the money. Those things don't make you happy! I'm considering it because I genuinely want to help people, I'm fascinated by medicine, and I just outright want to find my purpose in life. The money and prestige aren't really a factor. So if you could enter this convo without accusing me of wanting the title, rather than the job, that'd be just peachy.
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That's really cool man. We need more people in this world that want to help people. It's an important factor in having a strong and healthy community. Where are you volunteering at?
 
I wanted to be a neurosurgeon when I pictured myself cashing a $27k bi-weekly paycheck.

Then I pictured myself working 88 hours a week for 7-8 years of residency.
 
Peskywabbit505 said:
And it's WHEN I get into med school, not "if" sir. :nod:
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50%, roughly speaking, who apply to medical school don't get accepted. The standardized subsection score of the MCAT is 7, which means that the average score should be about 21. It's getting to the point where even a 30 isn't necessarily a safe score (I remember when the "safe" score was a 3.5 GPA and a MCAT of 30). This doesn't even count the number of "premeds" who find a different path before even taking the MCAT.

Peskywabbit505 said:
I'm just curious about the occupation I've chosen for myself, sir! I understand it's a very long ways away, and I'm focused on making it in the top %10 of my high school class right now, so don't worry! I'm just trying to see the size of the mountains I'll have to climb along this long road, if you catch my drift
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Pretty much all of us were in the top 10% of high school. High school is laughable compared to college, and college is a complete joke compared to medical school. ...and that 10% that you're proud to be a part of... those are your classmates in med school, so you may easily find yourself going from the top 10% to the bottom 20% simply because you're the cohort that's in medical school... and you're going to need to be in the top 10-20% of med school to get neuro sx.

It's not that we're trying to rain on your parade, but it's a much different view from this part of the mountain than from where you are... the train station that leads to the base camp.
 
Mad Jack said:
That isn't true. Derm doesn't have the best salary, but it is one of the most competitive fields out there. General surg and IM used to also be quite competitive, despite lower salaries than the specialties.
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Same thing with ENT. They don't make that much money (of course, compared to other docs) and are very competetitive. Not ortho or plastics competitive but still quite competitive.
 
J Senpai said:
I know, right? Can you see that hokey quote coming out of this face?
dorman-portrait.jpg


He will lead millions!
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Oh my goodness, you actually found a picture of Dr. Dorman!:laugh: But yeah, he really is an inspiration and an encouraging factor in my academic life!
 
slopes23 said:
That's really cool man. We need more people in this world that want to help people. It's an important factor in having a strong and healthy community. Where are you volunteering at?
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Thanks, I really appreciate it! And I'm volunteering at Odessa Regional MC for the summer.
 
Euxox said:
The thing is that doing something just because other people find it impressive is almost always sets you up for disappointment. What happens if you don't succeed? If, four years from now, you find that you earned an engineering degree with a 2.8 average, are you going to be happy because you enjoyed what you studied, or are you going to feel like **** because you spent years of your life doing something that you hated and didn't even manage to get the reward of prestige that you were looking for?

Even if you do succeed, beating the odds and and ending up in the most successful one percent, you usually find that whatever prestige you've earned isn't nearly as much as you thought it would be.

Sure, you might not want to study engineering anymore, but the fact that you originally wanted to study engineering just because you thought other people would find it impressive makes us a bit suspicious of your motivations for becoming a neurosurgeon.
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Yeah, I understand that. I was just considering it because my intentions are to have the best application I can when that time rolls around and it's a good safety net to break my fall if things don't work out, if you see what I mean. My intentions weren't to go after the "prestige" or "title" of having a degree in BME. And also, I wanted good practice to develop good study habits and good recall to prepare me for med school.
 
circulus vitios said:
I wanted to be a neurosurgeon when I pictured myself cashing a $27k bi-weekly paycheck.

Then I pictured myself working 88 hours a week for 7-8 years of residency.
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Are you sure they make that much? 88 hours/wk for 7-8 years!😱
 
BestDoctorEver said:
Are you sure they make that much? 88 hours/wk for 7-8 years!😱
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That's what I was thinking. $27k bi-weekly means $648k a year after taxes. (Hence my 'no taxes?' comment)
The one advertisement for a nsg that I've seen was earlier this year- $550k-600k in a medium size city. So I think $15-18k bi-weely paycheck is more realistic. But I don't know much about taxes at those high income levels.
 
BestDoctorEver said:
Are you sure they make that much? 88 hours/wk for 7-8 years!😱
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Gross they make like $600-700k so net would be $375-$425k or so. ACGME allows for a 10% hour exception over the 80 hour/week average, and many (I think) neurosurgery programs are under their exception -- so 88 hours a week, and I believe all neurosurgery programs have moved from 6 year to 7-8 year programs.
 
circulus vitios said:
Gross they make like $600-700k so net would be $375-$425k or so. ACGME allows for a 10% hour exception over the 80 hour/week average, and many (I think) neurosurgery programs are under their exception -- so 88 hours a week, and I believe all neurosurgery programs have moved from 6 year to 7-8 year programs.
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If they have to go thru these hellish hours and training to become neurosurgeons, they probably deserve more than that...
 
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Peskywabbit505 let me give you some advice. I'm pre-med and most of my friends don't even know what they want to specialize in. I vaguely know that I want to do surgery, because I like working with my hands. But that is a simple reason and my desires might change. When I got out of highschool I wanted to be a neurosurgeon too, for the same reasons as you. But having absolutely no life outside my career turned me off. Right now you are sounding very naive. Do what I resolved to do and wait until med school before you make any decisions. Otherwise you'll find yourself trapped in a career that you only vaguely knew about before you entered, if you even succeed at getting in.
 
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