How important are the dinners?

[b-real]

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So I've got an interview with one of my top choices. They have a dinner post interview, but I would ideally like to head out right after the interview for logistical reasons. How impotent in general are these pre/post interview dinners?

 

[shoal]

.. logistical reasons. How impotent in general are these pre/post interview dinners?

Well not sure how impotent the program is or the people in the program. Hopefully it won't make you impotent. All joking aside, I think the dinners are important for you and for the program. I'm not sure if it makes a whole heck of a difference in ranking, but it may make your choice easier.

I see no reason to save the money or time, if this is one of your top choices.

 

[Rendar5]

they're important for getting a feel for the types of residents at the program and a more honest feel for the program. Not that important for you getting in.

 

[Colbert]

they're important for getting a feel for the types of residents at the program and a more honest feel for the program. Not that important for you getting in.

+1.

I thought they were really important and influenced my rank list a lot. There were a couple places where I flat out didn't like anyone I met and others where I loved everyone there. Then still places where only one resident showed up (and even then a half hour late) which gives you an indication of how exhausted they must be. They aren't supposed to have any influence on the program ranking you, but then again if you get belligerently drunk or make some weird, offensive comment to someone, it could still get back to bite you in the ass.

 

[EM_Rebuilder]

I think there are three very important questions to ask when evaluating a program and your rank list.

1.) Does the program have any RRC issues? (probation, etc).

2.) Is this a city/geogrpahic location that I (family) would be happy at?

3.) Can I get along with the people I will be working with (residents)?

I think number 3 may be one of the most important aspects of the interview process and one of the more difficult to figure out. With that said, I think the 'dinners' that most programs have are one of the best ways to get an opinon about this.....

Obviously, I think they are extremly important. I think thay are less influential on you being ranked by the program, but are more geared for you to determine if this place is a 'good fit'.

 

[Cerberus]

We want to know what kind of person you are and how you'd fit in our residency and you'd like to know the same about us. I recommend dinners if at all possible. I've sent emails to my prog director about people I thought would/wouldn't fit in at our program following dinners.

 

[gutonc]

Obviously, I think they are extremly important. I think thay are less influential on you being ranked by the program, but are more geared for you to determine if this place is a 'good fit'.

I can't speak to EM specifically but, in general (^)this is the key. The dinners aren't for the program (per se) but for you. It's your chance to see the residents in that program "in the wild" and get an idea of whether or not you'd be willing to spend the next 3+ years hanging out (at work and at play) with people like that...and vice versa.

The way I see it, you can put all programs (any specialty) into one of 4 categories:
Awesome Program + Awesome Co-residents
Malignant Program + Awesome Co-residents
Awesome Program + Douchebag Co-residents
Malignant Program + Douchebag Co-residents

The first and last on that list are no-brainers...the dinner, on top of the interview day, helps you sort out the middle two.

 

[jbar]

I'd also recommend that if your logistics are so tight you can't make the dinners, you are putting yourself at risk of getting hosed when your flight gets canceled from bad weather (remember that most of your interviews are going to be end of Nov-end of Jan.) And if you don't like the city enough to want to hang out there for an extra night or don't have any friends there, are you really going to want to be there for 3-4 years? I learned a lot about the programs from those dinners, and from getting to the cities early enough to have time to wander around for a few hours.

If you can't make it you can't make it, but I would really try to hit the social events.

As an aside, watch out for places that don't have any kind of event. It means either the residents are too busy to meet up or they don't care. Either way, kinda a red flag if a place can't get 10 residents together who want to meet your for a beer.

 

[MrsOfficer]

if you don't like the city enough to want to hang out there for an extra night or don't have any friends there, are you really going to want to be there for 3-4 years?

As an aside, watch out for places that don't have any kind of event. It means either the residents are too busy to meet up or they don't care. Either way, kinda a red flag if a place can't get 10 residents together who want to meet your for a beer.

Great points!
👍

Seems to me if the aforementioned "logistics" is something like making it home for a wedding, you're only shorting yourself. If it's legit, like an interview the next day, it's a little different...

 

[jbar]

Great points!
👍

Seems to me if the aforementioned "logistics" is something like making it home for a wedding, you're only shorting yourself. If it's legit, like an interview the next day, it's a little different...

Going to that, unless no other way to do it don't set up your interviews back to back. You just aren't as fresh for the second. And you run risks of a flight delay screwing you. Thirdly, you risk missing both dinners, the one the night after the first interview and the one the night before the second.

Give yourself some space. And unless you are doing 30 interviews the season is long enough that you shouldn't have to do back to back interviews more than once during the season.

 

[Nervous Ned]

I'd also recommend that if your logistics are so tight you can't make the dinners, you are putting yourself at risk of getting hosed when your flight gets canceled from bad weather (remember that most of your interviews are going to be end of Nov-end of Jan.) And if you don't like the city enough to want to hang out there for an extra night or don't have any friends there, are you really going to want to be there for 3-4 years? I learned a lot about the programs from those dinners, and from getting to the cities early enough to have time to wander around for a few hours.

If you can't make it you can't make it, but I would really try to hit the social events.

As an aside, watch out for places that don't have any kind of event. It means either the residents are too busy to meet up or they don't care. Either way, kinda a red flag if a place can't get 10 residents together who want to meet your for a beer.

I completely agree with this. One of the things that sold me on UMass was the pre-interview dinner. You really should try to attend them if at all possible.

 

[JWU]

It's interesting that this comes up now, as a similar discussion recently took place on the program director listserv. Many programs have a pre- or post-interview social event, and a reasonable number of programs do not.
Most programs that have an event say they do this for a few reasons- 1) to give the applicant a chance to meet the residents, and therefore hopefully allow the applicant to decide whether they are a "fit", 2) to screen out the very few who make an absolute ass of themselves, and 3) some feel the pressure to do it because many other programs do it. The overwhelming reason is #1 above, to allow the applicants some unemcumbered time with the residents.
Of the programs that don't do this, they provide many reasons including- 1) It becomes expensive to host dinners every week for about 20 people, and they would rather use limited GME resources on educational programs (or the institution flat out refuses to pay for it), 2) they provide similar "alone" time for the residents and applicants to meet without faculty present during the actual interview day, 3) they feel that the planning/timing of interview season is difficult enough for applicants without burdening them to attend a night-before event, and 4) they don't want to ask residents to spend another night away from family and non-residency friends when they already have a very busy schedule.
To relate to this thread more directly, most PDs say that only about 50% of the applicants actually are able to make the event due to scheduling conflicts. There are certainly no hard feelings from the program side when applicants can't make these events- they are purely a "service" to the applicants to allow them some time to mingle and meet with residents and get a feel for the "personality" of the group. An exceedingly small number of people actually make an ass of themselves (although the stories are epic), so this is clearly not a primary reason for programs to have one of these events.
I would tell those of you who have trouble making these events that it is ok to miss them if it is a burden to your schedule or finances. If the program remains a potential top choice closer to the end of the season and you couldn't make the social, take a day to go back and see the residents and faculty in their work environment, see the interaction between residents and residents, between nurses/ancillary staff and residents, and between residents and faculty. You may spend less time and money doing this one or two times than you will keeping a hotel room an extra night on most of your interview days or broadening out your interview schedule to accomodate extra hours or days at each venue. If you can't make the night-before social but have a few hours free after the interview, consider emailing the PD ahead of time and ask if you can spend a few hours observing in the ED after your interview day. You will likely obtain pretty similar information to what you might get from the social event.
Short version- go if you can, but don't lose sleep if you aren't able to make it. If you couldn't make it and the program ends up in your top 2 or 3 (and/or you feel you didn't really get a good feel for the personality of the program), find a way to get back for a second visit. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Hamhock]

An exceedingly small number of people actually make an ass of themselves (although the stories are epic), .

I would love to hear some of those stories. Anyone want to share?

HH

 

[Pinner Doc]

So I've got an interview with one of my top choices. They have a dinner post interview, but I would ideally like to head out right after the interview for logistical reasons. How impotent in general are these pre/post interview dinners?

I can't speak for all programs, but I know that my residency at least noticed who didn't make the dinners - and that was seen as negative (unless extreme extenuating circumstances). The residents had some input into the decision process and the students' overall "fit" was important. Not showing for the dinner can reflect poorly, indicate lack of interest, etc.

 

[Groove]

Out of 11 interviews, I think I went to 2 dinners, always using the airport, scheduling conflict excuse , etc.. (which was true...but I could have made it a bigger priority and scheduled my flights accordingly)

In hindsight, it was pretty dumb. Go to the dinners if you can. Depending on the program, it might make a minor difference in whether you matched or not, but more importantly, as has already been said, it will give you a feel for the program and residents and you'll have a better sense of whether that is where you want to go. Luckily, one of the 2 dinners I went to was my first choice where I matched, so it all worked out.

 

[hikikomori]

This is from the residents in my school. Pre-interview dinners are for you to get to know the residents. But, they can hurt you if they don't like it. In my school, if the residents don't like you, the program will not rank you.
So the bottom line, they can hurt you; they won't help you with your rank/match with the program.

 

[EM100]

For some program directors it is a huge negative if you don't go to the dinner. It can make the difference between being matching and not matching. (at some places)

 

[pinipig523]

Dinners are important for you but not necessarily important for them ranking you. If anything - you getting drunk at one of the dinners or acting a fool will get your rank # lowered.

 

[jbar]

This is from the residents in my school. Pre-interview dinners are for you to get to know the residents. But, they can hurt you if they don't like it. In my school, if the residents don't like you, the program will not rank you.
So the bottom line, they can hurt you; they won't help you with your rank/match with the program.

To this I'd say, would you really want to spend 3-4 years with a bunch of people who don't like you after you spend an hour with them? Not saying get wasted, not saying tell the same jokes you tell your best friend. But if you can't spend an hour with a bunch of EM residents without them standing up at the rank list and saying "this dudes a tool" then you (not you hikikomori but you the whoever is reading this) have a much bigger problem. EM is a lot about first impressions, snap judgements. You are trying to walk into a room and get some patient who has never met you trust you enough to start an IV/do a pelvic/put in a chest tube/give some bad news.

So again, go. If people really hate me for who I am when I'm just hanging out, then not my kind of place anyway.

 

[chasingdaylight]

+1 for dinner's not making a rank list difference at our program.

However, it does give you a chance to see if you like us.

Gives you a feel for program. I know, only a snapshot, but better than not having it.

 

[iDoc1]

Zero difference...unless of course excessive drinking is involved

 

[EMmotherhen]

Rarely are dinners mandatory and seldom do they decide your ranking status but why pass up free food? It's a chance to meet everyone before "the big day" and get some nerves out of the way. Of course, if your flight gets in too late to attend, just drop a note to the Program Coordinator and no one will wonder why you didn't come.

When should you absolutely NOT attend? Well, here is a list of things I've witnessed by applicants who subsequently were not ranked so if you're prone to any of these then please stay away......

1) calling Chairman and PD by first name rather than Dr. X (use the manners your mother taught you)

2) flirting with the waitress / bartender / other applicants / residents

3) too much to drink
3a) showing up the next morning hung over

4) disrespect of genders, religions, cultures, and/or ethnicities. Save your opinions or those "jokes" for another time. Sad that we have to remind people of that....

 

[iridesingltrack]

Your goal is to find the best place for you to train. This is the only EM residency you will ever do...for your entire career. Maximize your chances for a successful match...that is, finding a place of synergy between you, the program, and the people, that results in the greatest opportunity for your success during residency and after you graduate. Do not cheap out on this. You have spent 3.5 years working your a s s off in medical school for this opportunity.

The true risk to you by going to these dinners is very low (just don't get plowed; if you find you must get wasted then residency at this point in your life is probably not for you, seek help) yet, the benefit is quite high. You can get a ton of your questions answered, figure out if you like the people you are considering spending the next 3-4 years of your life with, and get an idea of the personality of the whole place, all in a low stress environment when compared to that interview with the Program Director or Chairperson.

This is a basic principle that you will use even when you interview for your attending job: get to know the people you may be working with, they will bring you great joy or great misery, and very little in between.

Good luck,
iride