How important is AOA really?

[deebs4930]

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How important is AOA really? My situation is so: Im currently in a grad program that has an associated medical school. Through this grad program I have taken most of my first year medical school classes and done very well-giving me an excellent gpa...now if all goes well and since i've knocked out a good deal of my first year medical classes I'm on my way to AOA. Now recently I've been accepted to both that grad' school's associated medical school and another medical school that has a much higher ranking. If I start my first year at that other "better" medical school I would have to take ALL my classes over again b/c none of them transfer over. Now if i stay at the lesser ranked school I can not only get better grades, b/c my classes transfer over, but will have more time to study for my boards because I will have a lighter load next year as an accelerated M1. It is really important for me to get into a highly ranked residency program and I want to go into possibly Emergency Medicine or Cardiology.
What would you do? Any suggestions would really be appreciated.

 

[zinjanthropus]

if you have your first year of classes done, don't go anywhere...who cares about the ranking - don't lose a year of your life for that especially if you risk compromising your good grades thus far.

 

[MSIV]

It definetely depends on what you want to go into.

I know absolutely nothing about ER.

For cards, you will have to go into Internal Medicine, which is not very competetive. For medicine, AOA is a nice touch, but not that important. I have classmates who were not AOA, but with a good all-around app, who had better interviews (MGH) than some others who were AOA. It all depends on the whole application and, at the top places, on what kind of research you did. But the most important thing for Int. Med, by far, without a close second, is your grade in your 3rd year medicine clerkship. It is better to be a well-rounded applicant, have honors in medicine, and not be AOA than to have honors in most every class you have taken, have AOA, and get a Pass in medicine. This may be had to believe, but it's true. Also, in general, most residencies don't give a crap about your preclinical grades.

As for your decision, it depends what you are deciding between, ie how close they are. For example, the people at the middle of the pack at Harvard, Hopkins, Penn, UCSF, Duke still get amazing, top-notch residencies, while at a local-small-state school, such residencies are usually limited to the very top students. It also depends what you want to go into. Remember, most residencies like to take their own students. So, if you go to the place with the better Int. Medicine department or ER department, you can set yourself up to get in there for residency, even if you are not AOA. In general, it is always better for your career to go to the better name place, unless you will be unhappy there or if teh difference between teh 2 places is in reality not that big.

As for your plan to "study for the boards"....that is totally unrealistic. At most schools, you don't take the boards until the end of your 2nd year. So you're telling me that you are going to study for the boards for 2 years? Nice try. Its more like 4 weeks. Anything more than that is not only an extaordinary waste of time, it is counterproductive.

You sound very concerned about getting a "top" residency and you aren't even in med school yet. My advice...relax, then decide how big the gap is between the 2 places. If its marginal, go where you think you will be happier. If its considerable then you got a tough choice, and things like geography, family, overall "sense" of the place will make a difference. (but NOT your M1 grades)

Good luck!

 

[MSIV]

Of course my advice is predicated on the fact that next year you will be an "accelerated M1" as you put it, and you will not be able to skip tp 2nd year.

If you can skip to year 2 then definetely stay where you are.

 

[kingcer0x]

How important is AOA really? My situation is so: Im currently in a grad program that has an associated medical school. Through this grad program I have taken most of my first year medical school classes and done very well-giving me an excellent gpa...now if all goes well and since i've knocked out a good deal of my first year medical classes I'm on my way to AOA. Now recently I've been accepted to both that grad' school's associated medical school and another medical school that has a much higher ranking. If I start my first year at that other "better" medical school I would have to take ALL my classes over again b/c none of them transfer over. Now if i stay at the lesser ranked school I can not only get better grades, b/c my classes transfer over, but will have more time to study for my boards because I will have a lighter load next year as an accelerated M1. It is really important for me to get into a highly ranked residency program and I want to go into possibly Emergency Medicine or Cardiology.
What would you do? Any suggestions would really be appreciated.

If you go to BU, your first year grades don't count into AOA. Only like the top 4 or 5 people in the class make AOA during 3rd year, and although like 10 more get it in 4th year, by then i think it is even too late to include on your app. None of the GMS students are out of any second year classes so your load is the same as everyone else.

If you go somewhere else, then who knows... I didnt know other grad programs gave you credit for the classes you took as a grad student.

 

[thackl]

It all helps, but I've been told AOA plays 2nd to the MLE and 3rd yr performance.

 

[SurfingDoctor]

Yes, AOA can help in any regard, but you can still be an Cardiologistt (after Internal Med) or Emergency Med without AOA.

 

[deuist]

Only 1/3 of EM applicants are AOA.

 

[dr_ray]

To follow up on the importance of AOA...

How many schools actually have AOA?

I went to the AOA site and couldn't find a number of well-known schools (I could be mistaken). If not everyone, especially the top usnews ranked schools, has AOA, then how important could it really be to have AOA status?

 

[Long Dong]

Only 1/3 of EM applicants are AOA.

Wow that sound like alot.

 

[UCSBMed1]

How important is AOA really? My situation is so: Im currently in a grad program that has an associated medical school. Through this grad program I have taken most of my first year medical school classes and done very well-giving me an excellent gpa...now if all goes well and since i've knocked out a good deal of my first year medical classes I'm on my way to AOA. Now recently I've been accepted to both that grad' school's associated medical school and another medical school that has a much higher ranking. If I start my first year at that other "better" medical school I would have to take ALL my classes over again b/c none of them transfer over. Now if i stay at the lesser ranked school I can not only get better grades, b/c my classes transfer over, but will have more time to study for my boards because I will have a lighter load next year as an accelerated M1. It is really important for me to get into a highly ranked residency program and I want to go into possibly Emergency Medicine or Cardiology.
What would you do? Any suggestions would really be appreciated.

As most of the people you will be competing against for top residencies did not graduate AOA either, I wouldn't use having completed most of first year and trying to land AOA as the deciding factor about choosing a med school. Chose one based on the city, the school, and whether you'd be happy there--i.e. the same stuff you've heard since beginning the interview process.

If you really want to make sure you are competitive for AOA, kick Step I's *ss. That is ultimately the best way to match in EM.

 

[bigfrank]

Only 1/3 of EM applicants are AOA.

Are you obtained this from ...?

 

[radioh3ad]

hahah right when i read this. i thought this guy was in bu gms hmm?

 

[deuist]

Are you obtained this from ...?

I can't remember the name of the residency book; I tried searching our lounge, but couldn't find it again. The book showed a comparison of different specialties and how competitive they are. I was surprised to see that EM was so high (about 30% of applicants were AOA). I was also surprised to see how low derm was (slightly above 40%).

 

[bigfrank]

I can't remember the name of the residency book; I tried searching our lounge, but couldn't find it again. The book showed a comparison of different specialties and how competitive they are. I was surprised to see that EM was so high (about 30% of applicants were AOA). I was also surprised to see how low derm was (slightly above 40%).

I think these figures are grossly off in today's interview climate. Those that apply into Derm may be 40% AOA, but those that get >10 interviews, I'd imagine are 65-85% AOA. Talk to some fourth years at your school who are applying -- I've been shocked.

I'm not sure if EM is as competitive as it used to be. There are around 1,000 spots per year, and I can't imagine 1/3 of the applicants being AOA nowadays. I could be wrong, but I'm thinking around 15% for some reason.

In any case, not being AOA is of absolutely no consequence if you're applying to EM, but it could be a considerable one if you're applying into Derm.

 

[deuist]

Of the 1206 American applicants to EM last year, only 78% matched [1]. An even lower percentage matched for the PGY-2 positions. EM is becoming more and more competitive each application cycle. Granted, some of the unmatched 22% may have used EM as a backup and decided to go into another specialty.

(For derm, 7% of applicants matched into PGY-1 spots and 57% matched into PGY-2.)

[1] AAMC's Careers in Medicine website.

 

[njbmd]

How important is AOA really? My situation is so: Im currently in a grad program that has an associated medical school. Through this grad program I have taken most of my first year medical school classes and done very well-giving me an excellent gpa...now if all goes well and since i've knocked out a good deal of my first year medical classes I'm on my way to AOA. Now recently I've been accepted to both that grad' school's associated medical school and another medical school that has a much higher ranking. If I start my first year at that other "better" medical school I would have to take ALL my classes over again b/c none of them transfer over. Now if i stay at the lesser ranked school I can not only get better grades, b/c my classes transfer over, but will have more time to study for my boards because I will have a lighter load next year as an accelerated M1. It is really important for me to get into a highly ranked residency program and I want to go into possibly Emergency Medicine or Cardiology.
What would you do? Any suggestions would really be appreciated.

Hi there,
AOA opened plenty of doors for me in terms of residency applications(I got lots of call-backs and interviews). It was definitely a plus-factor on my application but just having good grades is no guarantee that you are going to be selected for AOA. The criteria for selection to AOA third or fourth year varies from chapter to chapter. My chapter considers grades plus leadership (read political) plus contribution to the school itself.

AOA is not the end-all of residency application and plenty of people get into great competitive residencies without AOA. Residency selection is more than grades and USMLE too. Again, contacts and good clinical performance have loads to do with getting a good residency slot even if you do not have the grades.

Go to the school where you can perform the best and where you will be the happiest. You also want to make sure that you school has good contacts in the from of a strong (read nationally known) PD or chairman of Emergency Medicine or Internal Medicine (you have to do IM before cards).

I have a very close friend who failed USMLE Step I twice but busted her rear-end during third year and matched at Tufts. She is now doing an Interventional Cardiology fellowship and is doing very well. She was far from AOA but made up for it in her clinical performance and secured good contacts. Her high level of clinical performance and excellent research caught the eye of the Dean and the Chairman of IM.

Shoot for AOA but if you do not make it, so what? Being AOA is not guarantee that the "residency world is going to beat a path to your door". There are plenty of ways to get into a good residency slot and you have to perform well once you are there.

njbmd 🙂

 

[flop]

Just want to add that while I agree with the above, AOA helped me a lot in my chosen field. Some of that is probably because I come from a decent state school, but not so highlt ranked.

In my opinion, AOA and board scores can really pull the trigger for many fields. Of course, it's not the be all end all.

 

[premedgeek]

Stupid question: What is AOA? 😳

 

[deuist]

From medterms.com, AOA: Abbreviation for Alpha Omega Alpha, the medical honor society, the medical school equivalent of Phi Beta Kappa, in the United States and Canada. Membership is by election for distinguished academic achievement. Medical students, house officers, and medical school alumni and faculty are eligible for election.