How important is networking?

[eoan]

All my friends are not premeds so they think networking is important, even for premeds. And yet, they have given me no compelling argument towards it's usefulness (Edit: I meant to add "as a premed", I know networking is useful in general). Maybe if you are in research, it pays off to network. Thoughts?

Edit:
From a post below.

I should have specified. I would say making a good impression with higher-ups (Professors, physicians, etc.) definitely has obvious benefits, but the benefits in going out of the way to meet other peers/pre-meds (potentially future doctors?) seems dubious.

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[gyngyn]

Networking with whom?

 

[gannicus89]

Strong MCAT and GPA are most important. Be nice to your advisor so that he/she doesn't screw you over. Keep in contact with those who are writing you recommendations. Be polite to everybody. Other than that...you don't really need to "network".

 

[Glazedonutlove]

It's not important

 

[musicalfeet]

All my friends are not premeds so they think networking is important, even for premeds. And yet, they have given me no compelling argument towards it's usefulness. Maybe if you are in research, it pays off to be sociable and network. Thoughts?

Most likely not important in the process of getting admitted....

And it gets more and more important later as you get further into your career....

So you're eventually going to have to learn. EVERY career requires networking..it just depends on when...

 

[Strigon]

It's valuable in picking up new conversational skills.

 

[Hospitalized]

Smh at people who say networking isn't important. Connections can make or break opportunities.

 

[gyngyn]

Smh at people who say networking isn't important. Connections can make or break opportunities.

With whom would you have a pre-med network?
Working in an organization where your skills or interests are shared is reasonable...
Beyond that?

 

[Mad Jack]

Completely unimportant. Hell, given the tendencies of many premeds, it's probably even counterproductive.

 

[tenblackalps]

In undergrad, I would say its hardly useful outside of advisors/professors/supervisors/etc. Although if you are in a student leadership position, it's helpful to know people in similar positions in related organizations, especially for event planning and promotion if that's what you are tasked with.

 

[Hospitalized]

With whom would you have a pre-med network?

Possibly having a different definition of network, but I'm referring to professors for strong LORs, and employers for job opportunities (I was able to advance from housekeeper to scribe). Also, in my fortunate case, a physician that has fostered a positive learning environment for me, and will endorse my ability to succeed in medical school. I have gained substantial knowledge from current/former scribes on the application process -- what to expect for MCAT, primaries, secondaries, interviews, etc. We have lectures and seminars on how to prepare yourself for applying, and mock interviews are available. I consider this my "network." Much of this is from my employment, and without it I would be at a great disadvantage. But, I created the opportunity for exposure to these resources by "networking."

 

[Fastrada]

Networking is incredibly important. The biggest difference I have seen between students from top schools and lower ranked schools (undergrad) is their networking skills. I'm working in a lab at a top 20 med school and I've made connections to program directors and their children and I will use those connections if I end up wanting to do a residency there. I know a girl who decided she wanted to go to Yale Med School. She went there every summer to do research, so by the time she interviewed there she was friends with the admissions director and she is a student there now. For a couple of my interviews, my pre-med advisor was friends with the assistant deans of admissions, so she told me to go say hi to them for her so that I could strike up a conversation (and one of the deans of admissions said that he was good friends with my advisor and that he trusts her judgement, so he probably called her to talk about me and she will only say good things). I got my job because I worked my connections and contacted PIs directly.

I'm not even a great networker. I have a lot of friends who have gotten very far just because they were willing to reach out ask for stuff.

 

[gyngyn]

Possibly having a different definition of network, but I'm referring to professors for strong LORs, and employers for job opportunities (I was able to advance from housekeeper to scribe). Also, in my fortunate case, a physician that has fostered a positive learning environment for me, and will endorse my ability to succeed in medical school. I have gained substantial knowledge from current/former scribes on the application process -- what to expect for MCAT, primaries, secondaries, interviews, etc. We have lectures and seminars on how to prepare yourself for applying, and mock interviews are available. I consider this my "network." Much of this is from my employment, and without it I would be at a great disadvantage. But, I created the opportunity for exposure to these resources by "networking."

All the things you have described are normal parts of exploration and validation of commitment.
I would add that "networking with physicians" rarely has an effect on the admissions outcome (though I'm glad you had a positive experience!). It appears that the "network of scribes" has served the purpose of an organization of shared interests.

 

[WedgeDawg]

Networking is incredibly important. The biggest difference I have seen between students from top schools and lower ranked schools (undergrad) is their networking skills. I'm working in a lab at a top 20 med school and I've made connections to program directors and their children and I will use those connections if I end up wanting to do a residency there. I know a girl who decided she wanted to go to Yale Med School. She went there every summer to do research, so by the time she interviewed there she was friends with the admissions director and she is a student there now. For a couple of my interviews, my pre-med advisor was friends with the assistant deans of admissions, so she told me to go say hi to them for her so that I could strike up a conversation (and one of the deans of admissions said that he was good friends with my advisor and that he trusts her judgement, so he probably called her to talk about me and she will only say good things). I got my job because I worked my connections and contacted PIs directly.

I'm not even a great networker. I have a lot of friends who have gotten very far just because they were willing to reach out ask for stuff.

Went from top undergrad to top med school. From what I've seen, networking can be useful when done right, but is by no means necessary. For the vast majority of applicants (even top level applicants), it won't even be a factor.

 

[Hospitalized]

All the things you have described are normal parts of exploration and validation of commitment.
I would add that "networking with physicians" rarely has an effect on the admissions outcome (though I'm glad you had a positive experience!). It appears that the "network of scribes" has served the purpose of an organization of like minded individuals.

I agree, they are. However, in my experience, FAR too many pre-meds have absolutely NO IDEA what they are getting into.

How often have you read a LOR from a physician who has worked with a student for 2 years?

 

[gyngyn]

How often have you read a LOR from a student who has worked with a physician for 2 years?

Plenty.
Usually the sons and daughters of other physicians.

 

[Fastrada]

Went from top undergrad to top med school. From what I've seen, networking can be useful when done right, but is by no means necessary. For the vast majority of applicants (even top level applicants), it won't even be a factor.

Oh, I thought I wrote this in my original post, but she had a 3.55. That's not a crazy low GPA for Yale, but I think networking really helped.

 

[Hospitalized]

Plenty.
Usually the sons and daughters of other physicians.

Excluding that scenario.

Rephrase: How often have you read a LOR from a scribe that has worked with an ER physician for 2 years?

 

[gyngyn]

Rephrase: How often have you read a LOR from a scribe that has worked with an ER physician for 2 years?

It's becoming the new normal.
A lot like EMT was a few years ago.
I say this not to negate the value of your experience, but rather to emphasize that this is but one aspect of a multifactorial application. It happens to be the one that is exploding right now. There is nothing wrong with it, but letters from doctors for whom one has scribed are not an important component of a strong application. Doctors are reliably going to to write warm bland letters indicating how much we like the person. It's just our nature. It's also what makes our letters fluff.

 

[WedgeDawg]

Oh, I thought I wrote this in my original post, but she had a 3.55. That's not a crazy low GPA for Yale, but I think networking really helped.

What was her MCAT? Did she have strong commitment to research?

I'm not trying to argue that networking didn't help this applicant or can't help applicants, I'm just arguing that it's definitely not necessary and for most applicants it won't matter.

 

[typhoonegator]

There is a difference between networking and self-advocacy. You should absolutely assert yourself when interacting with people whose impression of you might benefit you down the road. You should absolutely seek lab experience with PIs who carry weight in their academic environments to leverage their LORs. All totally legitimate. But as a faculty member, it is fairly easy to see through people trying to leverage tenuous professional relationships for personal gain. You aren't drug reps looking for leads to your next job. Focus on yourself and what you need to do to communicate your abilities to others whose opinions matter. I'm sure there are stories of how someone met the daughter of the dean at BMC in their Princeton Review class and it was somehow instrumental in their advancement, but that is far from the norm, and far from necessary. If you require these chance interactions to advance your career, then there are probably other things you should be spending your time on.

 

[Fastrada]

What was her MCAT? Did she have strong commitment to research?

I'm not trying to argue that networking didn't help this applicant or can't help applicants, I'm just arguing that it's definitely not necessary and for most applicants it won't matter.

I know it's not "necessary." Yale will always have people to fill their seats. I just think when there are a bunch of similar people schools have to choose from, networking could make it so that you are the one they go for. So she went from someone they might have interviewed to someone who would definitely be interviewed by networking. It's like being on a waitlist. It's not "necessary" to reach out to the school to get off the waitlist, but contacting them will increase the chance that you are the one they call when a spot opens up.

 

[Hospitalized]

It's becoming the new normal.

And I'm getting the impression that you find no significant importance in a LOR of this nature, then? So, what truly makes a LOR "great"? Because I have a hard time coming up with one that has greater components than:
1.) Physician credentials;
2.) Testament to academic capability in medical school;
3.) Endorsement of ability to handle the logistics of working a career in medicine;
4.) Ability to form efficient, professional relationships, and be an effective employee.

Otherwise, I find it odd that it's the "new normal" because I haven't met a single other pre-med at my university with similar experience. Duly noted. Although, I'm not from CA, where pre-meds are massively more abundant.

 

[WedgeDawg]

I know it's not "necessary." Yale will always have people to fill their seats. I just think when there are a bunch of similar people schools have to choose from, networking could make it so that you are the one they go for. So she went from someone they might have interviewed to someone who would definitely be interviewed by networking. It's like being on a waitlist. It's not "necessary" to reach out to the school to get off the waitlist, but contacting them will increase the chance that you are the one they call when a spot opens up.

The only caveat is that if you do your networking poorly, you risk going in the opposite direction (especially for many premeds who aren't generally going for jobs or internships that require rough interview series or previous networking exposure).

Yeah, getting your name known can help. But at the same time, if there's someone more qualified or who Yale/Harvard/WashU/whatever wants more, they're going to go for that other applicant, regardless of the fact that some adcom may know your name. Networking also isn't going to make up for lack of qualification. Yale's mission, in particular, is to churn out academic powerhouse physicians and leaders. If you don't have a demonstrated aptitude for something along those lines, knowing someone likely isn't going to help you.

As we have both agreed on, can networking help? Yes.

Is it necessary? No. Will it help? Sometimes, sometimes not. Can it hurt? Yes. Will it make up for slack anywhere else? No. Will it help a marginal applicant? Maybe get them an interview if they otherwise wouldn't have, but unless the interview goes really well, it'll probably end up as a waitlist.

 

[gyngyn]

And I'm getting the impression that you find no significant importance in a LOR of this nature, then? So, what truly makes a LOR "great"? Because I have a hard time coming up with one that has greater components than:
1.) Physician credentials;
2.) Testament to academic capability in medical school;
3.) Endorsement of ability to handle the logistics of working a career in medicine;
4.) Ability to form efficient, professional relationships, and be an effective employee.

Otherwise, I find it odd that it's the "new normal" because I haven't met a single other pre-med at my university with similar experience. Duly noted. Although, I'm not from CA, where pre-meds are massively more abundant.

Older docs can't type. A scribe is necessary. You can type really fast!
1. Physicians are notoriously incapable of writing an effective LOE for a medical student (despite our other fine characteristics).
2. Scribing rarely gives the letter writer an insight into academic strengths. Professors have these insights more often.
3. ?
4. An employee letter can give information about reliability and interpersonal skills. This is best written by the actual employer, though. https://www.aamc.org/download/349990/data/lettersguidelinesbrochure.pdf

The exceptions to the uselessness of a physician LOE are for DO schools (they do love a DO letter!) and when a PI or professor happens to be a physician. A few MD schools want a "clinical letter" (Chicago med, Utah and AZ, for example). A physician can certainly write one of these.

 

[Hospitalized]

1. Physicians are notoriously incapable of writing an effective LOE for a medical student (despite our other fine characteristics).
2. Scribing rarely gives the letter writer an insight into academic strengths.
3. ?
4. An employee letter can give information about reliability and interpersonal skills. This is best written by the actual employer, though. https://www.aamc.org/download/349990/data/lettersguidelinesbrochure.pdf

1. Why is that? I happen to know of a current MS-3 who was told the letter from a physician he worked with as a scribe was very helpful for his application.
2. I do happen to talk about academics with this particular physician, frequently. The utililzation of this is TBD, I suppose.
3. Familiarity with charting, doc-to-doc consults, lack of primary care availability in the U.S, understanding the healthcare process -- the roles of technicians, nurses, secretaries, scribes, and physicians. Understanding billing, ICD, insurance, the list goes on. Is this not useful?
4. There's not a lot of overhead in the company I work for. The physicians essentially run the group -- there's only 2 other individuals involved: the boss and scheduler.

 

[WingedOx]

Smh at people who say networking isn't important. Connections can make or break opportunities.

It ain't going to do sh-t if you don't have the numbers.

 

[WingedOx]

1. Why is that? I happen to know of a current MS-3 who was told the letter from a physician he worked with as a scribe was very helpful for his application.
2. I do happen to talk about academics with this particular physician, frequently. The utililzation of this is TBD, I suppose.
3. Familiarity with charting, doc-to-doc consults, lack of primary care availability in the U.S, understanding the healthcare process -- the roles of technicians, nurses, secretaries, scribes, and physicians. Understanding billing, ICD, insurance, the list goes on. Is this not useful?
4. There's not a lot of overhead in the company I work for. The physicians essentially run the group -- there's only 2 other individuals involved: the boss and scheduler.

WTF does an MS3 really know about the admissions process. And how would he/she know it was helpful?

 

[Hospitalized]

It ain't going to do sh-t if you don't have the numbers.

I said that with the implication that someone calling themselves a "pre-med" has the numbers.

 

[gyngyn]

1. Why is that? I happen to know of a current MS-3 who was told the letter from a physician he worked with as a scribe was very helpful for his application.
2. I do happen to talk about academics with this particular physician, frequently. The utililzation of this is TBD, I suppose.
3. Familiarity with charting, doc-to-doc consults, lack of primary care availability in the U.S, understanding the healthcare process -- the roles of technicians, nurses, secretaries, scribes, and physicians. Understanding billing, ICD, insurance, the list goes on. Is this not useful?
4. There's not a lot of overhead in the company I work for. The physicians essentially run the group -- there's only 2 other individuals involved: the boss and scheduler.

1. Physician letters are the fluff of medical school LOE's. Your friend/sibling has no way of knowing the effect (if any) of this letter.
2. They have no comparators at this point.
3. Somewhat, but it will all be presented in due time. It is more helpful for you than it is for us in evaluating your candidacy.
4. It sounds like you are doing a fine job. If you need a fourth letter or a "clinical" letter this will work.

 

[eoan]

Networking with whom?

I should have specified. I would say making a good impression with higher-ups (Professors, physicians, etc.) definitely has obvious benefits, but the benefits in going out of the way to meet other peers/pre-meds (potentially future doctors?) seems dubious.

I never joined a pre-med-specific organization because it made no impact for me. I could find my own activties and volunteering - clinical and non-clinical. Other information was fairly easily found on the internet. Networking is slightly useful as a leader of a club but nothing I couldn't live without.

There is a difference between networking and self-advocacy. You should absolutely assert yourself when interacting with people whose impression of you might benefit you down the road. You should absolutely seek lab experience with PIs who carry weight in their academic environments to leverage their LORs. All totally legitimate. But as a faculty member, it is fairly easy to see through people trying to leverage tenuous professional relationships for personal gain. You aren't drug reps looking for leads to your next job. Focus on yourself and what you need to do to communicate your abilities to others whose opinions matter. I'm sure there are stories of how someone met the daughter of the dean at BMC in their Princeton Review class and it was somehow instrumental in their advancement, but that is far from the norm, and far from necessary. If you require these chance interactions to advance your career, then there are probably other things you should be spending your time on.

How do I self-advocate without crossing the line to bragging or is that not possible? I find that making a meaningful relationship with a professor is pretty hard without coming off as someone trying to leverage the relationship. Should I accept that it's unlikely to make a strong relationship and just aim to make a good impression?

 

[Hospitalized]

WTF does an MS3 really know about the admissions process. And how would he/she know it was helpful?

This MS3 happens to be a sibling of mine. They said it helped, and I trust them.

 

[Fastrada]

How do I self-advocate without crossing the line to bragging or is that not possible? I find that making a meaningful relationship with a professor is pretty hard without coming off as someone trying to leverage the relationship. Should I accept that it's unlikely to make a strong relationship and just aim to make a good impression?

I think obviously trying to sell yourself to someone is bad networking because it comes off as annoying. I had a professor who complimented my presentation after class and then I stayed with him and we talked about traveling and just normal conversational stuff. Then he said, "If you ever need a LOR, I'd be glad to write one." So I had him write one. I wasn't aiming to get a letter or network; I was being a normal person. And to network with people you don't know, it would be best to just reach out and ask questions or something

Edit: Another example of networking is my high school physics major friend who went to a low-ranked state school. She won a research thing that paid for her to go to Germany and present her research at a conference. She contacted a Swiss lab who is very prominent in her field, just because she was interested in their research. They found out that she was going to be in Germany, so they offered to pay for her to travel to Switzerland and give a presentation at their lab. She wasn't trying to promote herself. She was just interested in learning more, and got a pleasant surprise. Now she is friends with one of the major researchers in her field. If she approached them by talking about how great she is, they probably would have said, "Who is this crazy girl and why is she bothering us?"

 

[WingedOx]

This MS3 happens to be a sibling of mine. They said it helped, and I trust them.

and I'm convinced that the letter of rec from my studio art professor that was entirely about my printmaking abilities (not kidding, she showed it to me) helped. I have no confirmation of this. Neither do you.

The reality is that when someone reads a letter from a random physician it just reads "ok, this kid knows a physician." I want to know about your personal qualities in your academic life, not how well-connected you are. Unless this physician is someone I personally know, it's pretty useless to me in telling me what type of person you are.

 

[El-Rami]

It's not always what you know but who you know... The most important thing is to get to know your advisers, professors, and university research staff.

 

[WedgeDawg]

It's not always what you know but who you know...

Thank you for your exceedingly valuable and insightful contribution to this discussion.

 

[El-Rami]

Thank you for your exceedingly valuable and insightful contribution to this discussion.

You're welcome.

 

[Hospitalized]

and I'm convinced that the letter of rec from my studio art professor that was entirely about my printmaking abilities (not kidding, she showed it to me) helped. I have no confirmation of this. Neither do you.

The reality is that when someone reads a letter from a random physician it just reads "ok, this kid knows a physician." I want to know about your personal qualities in your academic life, not how well-connected you are.

The proof is that he is an MS3 that still talks about how significant that doctor was for him in getting into medical school. I think the admissions committee picked up on it, one way or another. Could it have been of no help? Sure. I guess I just like having something to believe in.

So you don't care about personal qualities in work life? You are accepting a student that will eventually be a part of the workforce. I fail to see how that is irrelevant, especially when it is in the medical setting.

 

[WingedOx]

If you want something to believe in that's fine.

But for the purposes of this thread, let's stick to the facts of what actually is or isn't viewed as important by the people who are actually reading the applications.

As the even more experienced @gyngyn will attest, the physician letters aren't going to tell anything that your standard academic letters don't already say.

 

[cantankerous]

Practice makes perfect? Once you're in the real world, networking is really the only way to thrive.

 

[Goro]

Ahhh...nothing like the smell of ignorance in the morning!

All my friends are not premeds so they think networking is important, even for premeds. And yet, they have given me no compelling argument towards it's usefulness. Maybe if you are in research, it pays off to be sociable and network. Thoughts?

 

[NewHorizons]

Ahhh...nothing like the smell of ignorance in the morning!

While I agree with many of your posts... your attitude towards this statement is quite ignorant in itself. Networking is incredibly important indirectly to the admissions process. I know that I wouldn't have gotten nearly as many opportunities to do the things I did for research and employment if it wasn't for me reaching out to people whom then recommended me for jobs, bypassing everyone else. Those activities did help towards getting into medical school, and the letters they provided over time only aided my journey.

That said, networking for the sake of a checklist is quite distasteful and some people will recognize they are being played.

 

[eoan]

Ahhh...nothing like the smell of ignorance in the morning!

Oh what time zone are you in? It's night here.

 

[gyngyn]

While I agree with many of your posts... your attitude towards this statement is quite ignorant in itself. Networking is incredibly important indirectly to the admissions process. I know that I wouldn't have gotten nearly as many opportunities to do the things I did for research and employment if it wasn't for me reaching out to people whom then recommended me for jobs, bypassing everyone else. Those activities did help towards getting into medical school, and the letters they provided over time only aided my journey.

That said, networking for the sake of a checklist is quite distasteful and some people will recognize they are being played.

Performing well, making friends, collaborating and developing interpersonal skills are all good. They are elements of personal and professional growth. "Networking" is specifically making contacts for the purpose of advancing one's career. For a pre-med, networking is premature. You don't have a career yet... With whom are you you networking? How could it not seem forced?

 

[22031 Alum]

Performing well, making friends, collaborating and developing interpersonal skills are all good. They are elements of personal and professional growth.

I think a lot of this thread boils down to premeds thinking that this needs a name, and calling it "networking." Whereas someone who actually does network in the more classic sense, would disagree.

 

[Fastrada]

All my friends are not premeds so they think networking is important, even for premeds. And yet, they have given me no compelling argument towards it's usefulness. Maybe if you are in research, it pays off to be sociable and network. Thoughts?

Edit:
From a post below.

I should have specified. I would say making a good impression with higher-ups (Professors, physicians, etc.) definitely has obvious benefits, but the benefits in going out of the way to meet other peers/pre-meds (potentially future doctors?) seems dubious.

I just saw your edit. Networking with other pre-meds doesn't really make too much sense because you don't know if they'll be in the same field, if they'll even get into med school, etc. That being said, it could be good to have pre-med friends just to have someone going through similar experiences and who might have useful advice. I have no pre-med friends from undergrad because they seemed uptight, hahaha. Your med school friends will be better connections to maintain.

 

[NewHorizons]

Performing well, making friends, collaborating and developing interpersonal skills are all good. They are elements of personal and professional growth. "Networking" is specifically making contacts for the purpose of advancing one's career. For a pre-med, networking is premature. You don't have a career yet... With whom are you you networking? How could it not seem forced?

Even if your definition of networking more narrow (and I would even argue that trying to get into a professional school, or looking for research is "advancing one's career")... "Performing well, making friends, collaborating and developing interpersonal skills" are not solely "elements of personal and professional growth." I genuinely try to learn more about my professor's research and experiences, but I would be foolish to suggest that it also isn't networking.

As far as I'm concerned, personal and professional growth is the outcome of networking, and not mutually exclusive.

 

[Terry Toma]

I don't think that networking will have any direct impact on the admissions process (unless your idea of networking involves writing a big check), but it can definitely help you to get opportunities as an undergrad. If you go to a large university, there are great research opportunities available, but they can be tough to find. If you make an effort to get to know people who are doing work that interests you, you'll occasionally get the inside track on the opportunities that really fit your interests.

Same goes for ECs outside of the school. Your standard hospital volunteering gigs are easy enough to find online, but for anything off the beaten path, you're more likely to hear about the opportunity through a contact than through Google.

 

[avgn]

This MS3 happens to be a sibling of mine. They said it helped, and I trust them.

lol yeah no
Siblings are great and all blah blah blah but there is yet to be any evidence on this thread (or any others) which says that bland, positive, glowing letters from physicians make any sort of difference in the admissions process. Daily musings/guesses from random med students don't count.

 

[Hospitalized]

lol yeah no
Siblings are great and all blah blah blah but there is yet to be any evidence on this thread (or any others) which says that bland, positive, glowing letters from physicians make any sort of difference in the admissions process. Daily musings/guesses from random med students don't count.

ICYMI

The proof is that he is an MS3 that still talks about how significant that doctor was for him in getting into medical school. I think the admissions committee picked up on it, one way or another. Could it have been of no help? Sure. I guess I just like having something to believe in.