How is it ethical for medical schools to keep people on waitlists without telling us our chances?

[GonnaBeADocOneDay]

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We don't have to be excessively informed, but a general idea would be better. Like just enough to placate us. If everyone knew where their name was and could see others name that would also lead to a lot of unscrupulous behavior, if you ask me.

One thing I do ask for is that schools that aren't as revealing of info should give us more rational excuses about way or just be direct ("we're busy, we don't have the staff and man power to handle this, and if we did it'd drastically slow down the process"). Hearing "we can't give you feedback because our process is too complicated" when you're rejected, for example, really seems like a big excuse.

The problem is your "general idea" of informed versus mine or the next guy's may be completely different. You will never please everyone. My hypothetical was just that, a hypothetical. I was trying to use it to show the huge spectrum of information transparency that a school could provide. It is obviously not plausible with people's names and everything, but say you gave everyone passwords or code names, the analogy would still stand. The school's have to decide based on their resources how much information to provide to the candidates. And they are just that candidates. We are begging them to go to their school, not the other way around. If you were competitive for the school against the other people who applied, you would have gotten in straight away with no waitlist placement. Not trying to be harsh, but complaining about how you still have a chance to get into school when many others have had to deal with rejection and reapplying his cycle, seems a bit ungrateful.

Also, from what I understand many schools will give you information on how to improve your application to make you more competitive for the next cycle after they have rejected you. Not sure I have ever heard someone being dismissed being told "our process is too complicated". Is this something you encountered at a school this cycle?

 

[Coleworld]

The problem is your "general idea" of informed versus mine or the next guy's may be completely different. You will never please everyone. My hypothetical was just that, a hypothetical. I was trying to use it to show the huge spectrum of information transparency that a school could provide. It is obviously not plausible with people's names and everything, but say you gave everyone passwords or code names, the analogy would still stand. The school's have to decide based on their resources how much information to provide to the candidates. And they are just that candidates. We are begging them to go to their school, not the other way around. If you were competitive for the school against the other people who applied, you would have gotten in straight away with no waitlist placement. Not trying to be harsh, but complaining about how you still have a chance to get into school when many others have had to deal with rejection and reapplying his cycle, seems a bit ungrateful.

Also, from what I understand many schools will give you information on how to improve your application to make you more competitive for the next cycle after they have rejected you. Not sure I have ever heard someone being dismissed being told "our process is too complicated". Is this something you encountered at a school this cycle?

Lots of schools, I'd say arguably the bulk majority don't provide feedback if you're rejected. If you haven't applied expect to see a lot of "We can't help you, go contact your premed advisor".

As for being grateful for the waitlist, I am, but I still have tough decisions to make and so do many others to the point where more information would really help. Also, at the end of the day, a rejection at the end of the cycle because you didn't get off the waitlist, is still a rejection.

 

[LizzyM]

Here's the deal with providing feedback regarding applicants who were not admitted.

Yes, it takes time. Some admission directors/Deans of Admission have the time and others are busy with other duties such as rounding with residents and supervising patient care during these few slow months of the admissions cycle.

Yes, our process is complicated:

Pointing out the deficits in the application is no guarantee that you will be admitted if you fix all of those deficits, if it is even possible to fix them. The application process is viewing applicants holistically and trying to assemble a diverse class not just in race/ethnicity/gender but in terms of skills and experiences. We might have hundreds of applicants who have been Spanish language interpreters and those are great but we might also take an applicant who has been an interpreter in the Korean community or the Russian community. We may have dozens of applicants who have studied abroad in Paris but we might also take someone who trained as a Marine at Parris Island. Just as we try to direct undergrads away from a checkbox mentality, the post-application communication can come across as a checklist when it is much more than that. If you are as smart as you think you are, you know what the weaknesses are in your application. Whether your weaknesses are minor enough that you will rise to the top 15% of the applicant pool at any given school is a big question mark and nothing you do can guarantee that you will be admitted in a subsequent cycle. I think that some schools are afraid of sending a message that if you do x, y and z, you will get in next year and then when the applicant is unsuccessful in year 2 there are hard feelings when, in fact, the committee changed, the charge to the committee changed, or the competition became much stronger.

 

[FFH]

Some schools deserve to be complaint about with regard to their treatment of the candidates on the waitlist (and on the applicants in general), while some others do not.

Without naming names: there are schools that yet to come up with waitlist, there are schools who have a disproportionately large WL, there are schools who have their waitlist tiered but decided to withhold that info from the candidates. These schools can do a better job and reduce some anxiety or stress, but, they don't.

There are schools that are super on point and transparent about their waitlist. They either keep it tiered (not that everyone has to), or keep it at reasonable size. They are also very open about the historical data on the waitlist movements. Schools like Harvard, Yale, Pittsburgh, Upstate fall into these categories.

But in general, my altitude is that beggars can't be chooser and chooser don't have to beg.

 

[FFH]

Also, this goes both ways. How is it ethical that for candidates to keep multiple acceptances without telling the schools their chance? It's ethical because the informant is just not available and whatever can be said for a certain moment is meaningless when being used to predict the final result. The candidates changes their mind whenever there are new information about fin aid or about the curriculum or when the circumstances change.

 

[LizzyM]

I have sometimes suggested that it is more merciful to reject an applicant who is acceptable but who is highly unlikely to be accepted off the waitlist because the waitlist has 4 times more prospective students than we've ever taken from the waitlist (of course, some will withdraw because they got in elsewhere).

Is it more merciful to reject an applicant than to put them on a waitlist there is a <1% chance of getting an offer of admission given the size of the waitlist?

 

[ski89]

I have sometimes suggested that it is more merciful to reject an applicant who is acceptable but who is highly unlikely to be accepted off the waitlist because the waitlist has 4 times more prospective students than we've ever taken from the waitlist (of course, some will withdraw because they got in elsewhere).

Is it more merciful to reject an applicant than to put them on a waitlist there is a <1% chance of getting an offer of admission given the size of the waitlist?

I would say yes. A rejection allows you to move on, a waitlist.. not so much. Sorry if you have answered this, but is there a reason why schools don't release your exact rank on the waitlist and how far through the waitlist they have gone? I mean, I get it. There is no predicting waitlist movement, but providing a rank allows the student to better decide whether to withdraw and move on or to hang in there. Lets say you are number 40 on the waitlist at the beginning of May. As others have mentioned it could be a heavy year with 50 off the waitlist or a slim year with 5, so this information isn't that helpful in the early stages of the summer. But, when mid june comes around and you learn that they are only on waitlist position 10, this to me would be an indication that it will not be a 50 person year. The bottom line, as the summer drags on, waitlist position makes a world of difference in deciding where you are going to spend the next 4 years of your life. I cannot think of a reason why this information isn't provided.

 

[miamiheatfan]

What about this as a possible solution. Some kind of computer automated system that constantly shifts candidates around on a waitlist based on how it moves. Schools create an initial criteria or ranking system that gives points to candidates for having certain traits. like +2 if they don’t have an acceptance yet, +3 if they have above a 3.8 GPA, etc. Then every time people are added to the waitlist, the system changes accordingly. Then once every two weeks people still on the waitlist get an automatic email saying exactly where they are at out of how many, and maybe also how many people have been accepted from the waitlist to that point. Students get their transparency and ADCOMs get a break. The only thing that schools have to do is spend a little time creating this in the beginning and having someone on IT take care of monitoring the system. I’m not even sure if what I said made sense but send the likes this way if you got it😀

 

[LizzyM]

I would say yes. A rejection allows you to move on, a waitlist.. not so much. Sorry if you have answered this, but is there a reason why schools don't release your exact rank on the waitlist and how far through the waitlist they have gone? I mean, I get it. There is no predicting waitlist movement, but providing a rank allows the student to better decide whether to withdraw and move on or to hang in there. Lets say you are number 40 on the waitlist at the beginning of May. As others have mentioned it could be a heavy year with 50 off the waitlist or a slim year with 5, so this information isn't that helpful in the early stages of the summer. But, when mid june comes around and you learn that they are only on waitlist position 10, this to me would be an indication that it will not be a 50 person year. The bottom line, as the summer drags on, waitlist position makes a world of difference in deciding where you are going to spend the next 4 years of your life. I cannot think of a reason why this information isn't provided.

Because as the summer wears on, there is no telling that dozens of the people on your waitlist will drop off the waitlist because they got off the waitlist and will be matricualting elsewhere. Your place on the list might change even if no one ever gets an offer of admission from our school. Furthermore, there are those who don't rank their waitlist and will fill a gap with a similar candidate from the waitlist... you might be number one on the waitlist if the person who withdraws to go elsewhere is a skier with EMT wilderness training but not so much if the hole to be filled had been occupied by a former inner-city biology teacher who speaks Spanish and Creole. Your waitlist position may make no difference if nothing opens up. We could expect 30 openings and have only 1. We could expect no waitlist movement after a certain date and have tragedy strike such that a last minute opening occurs.

You believe that being cut is more merciful that being left on the waitlist till the bitter end but the alternative is to cut yourself (withdraw) but no one seems to advocate for that.

 

[HopesandDreams]

It's June and a lot of people like myself are still dangling on waitlists with no idea of whether or not we'll get in, and no way to find out. There are a lot of schools with ranked waitlists that don't tell people their positions and could easily give information about our positions that would help us make decisions about reapplying and whether or not we stand a chance. There are also ranked waitlists that tell us what third or fourth we're in, but they could easily be more realistic and tell us our actual chances of getting in based off of previous years data, yet most of these schools choose not to communicate with us, and in some cases even hold our desire to communicate and actually be "in-the-know" against us. If they were in our situations they'd be doing everything in their power to find out where they stand.

It's extremely difficult to commit and pull strings to attend a school across the country at a moment's notice right before schools start. Commiting to an apartment the week before class starts is nigh impossible because it really TAKES TIME, as is trying to sort out previous living arrangements (try getting out of the lease for where you live at a moment's notice because the unexpected happened), and getting everything you need across the country. People who are just regularly accepted (non-waitlist) get a second look with a lot of resources and months of support, and we're just in the dark.

On the other hand knowing if we don't stand a chance would give us more of a chance to have the necessary information to invest ourselves wisely for the next year. I, myself, do not have an excess disposable income or parents to support me, so to do something like retake the mcat or reapply I'd have to take on multiple jobs.

Even though I already reapplied and prepared months ago and have my ducks in line, the way this process is setup is unnecessarily difficult for applicants. We fly across the country, and if we are rejected or waitlisted, schools often won't give us any information as to why. All of this is really expensive, especially flights, with the late notice we're given, and to be provided no information is just a slap in the face. We spend months on waitlists with no way of finding out where we stand when it would be easy for admissions to communicate with us, I mean pretty much all waitlists could be divided into third groups, for example:
1) good chance of getting in
2) variable
3) no chance


Admissions should just be able to tell us more information and be open to communication more, especially since they rank us in the system. At the very minimum by june they should disclose this information and send people on the no chance part packing with rejections. I'd rather have a rejection than wait for the impossible.

I also know people would kill to be in our positions, but that says more about how flawed and unnecessarily difficult this process, because our position is not something that should be considered desirable. Being in a position where we have almost no information and no control over our positions on these waitlists is dreadful. How it is ethical for admissions to do this to us? It really disturbs me, and I don't see the rational for it. What are your thoughts?

while its annoying its not nearly as bad as you make it out to be. who said you have to have an apartment before school starts? airbnb a place for the first week or two til you find yourself a place even if its just a room on a month to month until you sign a lease on a decent spot. as far as your old place you just give them the notice leave and dont pay the past-due rent til your loans hit. you wont be the first one in history to pay rent late. as long as there is time to still get approved for financial aid (which can be done at any time during the semeter) and the school will take your tuition late/ even if its with a late fee you can make it. you can practically live out of the library and shower at the gym if you have to. in the meantime get on the grind with the income and mcat studying.

look for answers and you'll find them. look for problems and you'll find them

 

[Coleworld]

while its annoying its not nearly as bad as you make it out to be. who said you have to have an apartment before school starts? airbnb a place for the first week or two til you find yourself a place even if its just a room on a month to month until you sign a lease on a decent spot. as far as your old place you just give them the notice leave and dont pay the past-due rent til your loans hit. you wont be the first one in history to pay rent late. as long as there is time to still get approved for financial aid (which can be done at any time during the semeter) and the school will take your tuition late/ even if its with a late fee you can make it. you can practically live out of the library and shower at the gym if you have to. in the meantime get on the grind with the income and mcat studying.

look for answers and you'll find them. look for problems and you'll find them

this is exactly the advice i was looking for. thank you so much.

 

[tofuuu]

I also agree that it's better to reject an applicant rather than put them on the wait list if their chances of getting accepted is highly unlikely.
There are some schools (not going to name them) that haven't even sent out post-interview rejections yet...

 

[Goro]

Go back and re-read gyngyn's posts.


Partially related question, is it really that wildly unpredictable, even at this point in the cycle? I'd think waitlist movement would have slowed down to a trickle and become predictable at this point, like to the point where people at the bottom could be rejected, and those not could receive more reasonable estimates of where they stand.

 

[Señor Chang]

1) good chance of getting in
2) variable
3) no chance

3) is not the case for anyone on the waitlist

1) and 2) would be really hard for schools to truly decide between; also, even if they could, it would offer almost no benefit to most students.

 

[dog_swag]

Random late night philosophical thought:

Learning to deal with something like a waitlist is an invaluable lesson that could greatly aid in your growth as a physician.
I don't mean to come off as calloused but when you think about it, there will be numerous times in your career that you won't be able to predict the outcome for your patients. Granted, some things are more probable than others, but just think about complications with surgery. I had a thought similar to this right before the MCAT. We were all freaking out about this test (and we should have been intense but not to the point of crying during the test) but we want to be in a field where people can live or die based off our decisions. Whether it be the MCAT or a waitlist, the uncertainties/fears/possible negative repercussions are far less serious than those when dealing with patients. For example, MCAT didn't go well/interview didn't go well, you got rejected/were put on a waitlist...you get another shot. Complications/mistakes/random chance (?) on an actual patient...quite often not reversible.

I get it, OP. It sucks. But you have to be mentally strong to not just make it through admissions, but to succeed as a medical student/resident/attending (etc). Everybody is doing their best and that is all that is asked of you. You've probably worked hard and put your heart into this. But keep it in perspective. You will get another shot. If you were on a waitlist, obviously you have enough going on. Make your adjustments, regroup, take responsibility of yourself and what you can control, and push forward. If you really, really want to be a doctor, there will always be another bus coming.

 

[LilEngineThatCould]

What about this as a possible solution. Some kind of computer automated system that constantly shifts candidates around on a waitlist based on how it moves. Schools create an initial criteria or ranking system that gives points to candidates for having certain traits. like +2 if they don’t have an acceptance yet, +3 if they have above a 3.8 GPA, etc. Then every time people are added to the waitlist, the system changes accordingly. Then once every two weeks people still on the waitlist get an automatic email saying exactly where they are at out of how many, and maybe also how many people have been accepted from the waitlist to that point. Students get their transparency and ADCOMs get a break. The only thing that schools have to do is spend a little time creating this in the beginning and having someone on IT take care of monitoring the system. I’m not even sure if what I said made sense but send the likes this way if you got it😀

We'll be waiting for you to come up with this system lol as for now it's still humans ranking if they're ranking at all lol

 

[nOchemallday]

As many have mentioned, I don't think knowing your place really helps anything. If the adcoms can't predict movement, how do you plan on predicting it when you only know your own position. I think there are far bigger crimes when it comes to the seller's market that is medical school admissions. Off the top of my head I can think of:
1. Silent rejections/pre-II rejections after April 31st - like honestly, at least have the courtesy to send me an automated email for $100+ secondary fee
2. Everything about financial aid if you're accepted from a waitlist, especially if you are already holding an acceptance.
3. False information about timelines. Not so much bad as it is annoying. For instance, "typically it will take XYZ SOM 6 weeks to complete your file/make a decision post-II, but at busy times during the cycle it can take up to 8-10 weeks." Then it takes 3+ months...
4. Sending emails to applicants inviting them to apply to a masters program at XYZ SOM after rejecting them from the MD program. At least they noticed that I "expressed an interest in pursuing an advanced degree in medicine." Rock solid advertising tactic.
I could get nit picky from there.

What I will wholeheartedly agree with is that both the admissions process and life in general puts low SES applicants/persons at a disadvantage, but the easy response is that life isn't fair.

 

[LilEngineThatCould]

As many have mentioned, I don't think knowing your place really helps anything. If the adcoms can't predict movement, how do you plan on predicting it when you only know your own position. I think there are far bigger crimes when it comes to the seller's market that is medical school admissions. Off the top of my head I can think of:
1. Silent rejections/pre-II rejections after April 31st - like honestly, at least have the courtesy to send me an automated email for $100+ secondary fee
2. Everything about financial aid if you're accepted from a waitlist, especially if you are already holding an acceptance.
3. False information about timelines. Not so much bad as it is annoying. For instance, "typically it will take XYZ SOM 6 weeks to complete your file/make a decision post-II, but at busy times during the cycle it can take up to 8-10 weeks." Then it takes 3+ months...
4. Sending emails to applicants inviting them to apply to a masters program at XYZ SOM after rejecting them from the MD program. At least they noticed that I "expressed an interest in pursuing an advanced degree in medicine." Rock solid advertising tactic.
I could get nit picky from there.

What I will wholeheartedly agree with is that both the admissions process and life in general puts low SES applicants/persons at a disadvantage, but the easy response is that life isn't fair.

Ok #4 is especially annoying. We didn't accept you, but you can still give us your money lol

 

[ski89]

Random late night philosophical thought:

Learning to deal with something like a waitlist is an invaluable lesson that could greatly aid in your growth as a physician.
I don't mean to come off as calloused but when you think about it, there will be numerous times in your career that you won't be able to predict the outcome for your patients. Granted, some things are more probable than others, but just think about complications with surgery. I had a thought similar to this right before the MCAT. We were all freaking out about this test (and we should have been intense but not to the point of crying during the test) but we want to be in a field where people can live or die based off our decisions. Whether it be the MCAT or a waitlist, the uncertainties/fears/possible negative repercussions are far less serious than those when dealing with patients. For example, MCAT didn't go well/interview didn't go well, you got rejected/were put on a waitlist...you get another shot. Complications/mistakes/random chance (?) on an actual patient...quite often not reversible.

I get it, OP. It sucks. But you have to be mentally strong to not just make it through admissions, but to succeed as a medical student/resident/attending (etc). Everybody is doing their best and that is all that is asked of you. You've probably worked hard and put your heart into this. But keep it in perspective. You will get another shot. If you were on a waitlist, obviously you have enough going on. Make your adjustments, regroup, take responsibility of yourself and what you can control, and push forward. If you really, really want to be a doctor, there will always be another bus coming.

this is a stretch. I don't think this annoying summer is going to improve my patient care in any way. Also, I mean no offence, but get back to me once you have actually gone through a cycle. Waiting for the MCAT score is like waiting for a red light to turn green in comparison to the application cycle.

 

[ski89]

Ok #4 is especially annoying. We didn't accept you, but you can still give us your money lol

Yeah I found it borderline insulting and at the very least an abuse of access to my private email.

 

[The Real SVB]

-did not read rest of thread-

As ethical as it is to put patients on an organ transplant waiting list without their knowing their chances.

 

[Dormouse]

You believe that being cut is more merciful that being left on the waitlist till the bitter end but the alternative is to cut yourself (withdraw) but no one seems to advocate for that.

People don't take themselves off of waitlists when they have no idea what their chances are of getting off the waitlist. They have no idea if there're hundreds of people on the waitlist or just a few, so why withdraw when you can be literally be called the next day? If schools actually give out the kind of information you did, i.e. there is no more room and the chances of getting off is very low based on past statistics, some of those with acceptances elsewhere will withdraw instead of opting to wait so the process becomes more manageable for everyone. Like others said, certain schools are great about keeping applicants as informed as possible, others less so.

 

[Coleworld]

Random late night philosophical thought:

Learning to deal with something like a waitlist is an invaluable lesson that could greatly aid in your growth as a physician.
I don't mean to come off as calloused but when you think about it, there will be numerous times in your career that you won't be able to predict the outcome for your patients. Granted, some things are more probable than others, but just think about complications with surgery. I had a thought similar to this right before the MCAT. We were all freaking out about this test (and we should have been intense but not to the point of crying during the test) but we want to be in a field where people can live or die based off our decisions. Whether it be the MCAT or a waitlist, the uncertainties/fears/possible negative repercussions are far less serious than those when dealing with patients. For example, MCAT didn't go well/interview didn't go well, you got rejected/were put on a waitlist...you get another shot. Complications/mistakes/random chance (?) on an actual patient...quite often not reversible.

I get it, OP. It sucks. But you have to be mentally strong to not just make it through admissions, but to succeed as a medical student/resident/attending (etc). Everybody is doing their best and that is all that is asked of you. You've probably worked hard and put your heart into this. But keep it in perspective. You will get another shot. If you were on a waitlist, obviously you have enough going on. Make your adjustments, regroup, take responsibility of yourself and what you can control, and push forward. If you really, really want to be a doctor, there will always be another bus coming.

I see the parallels and it's good comparison, but if I never get off the waitlist I'm never going to be able to even treat those patients let-alone worry about them 😛, so there's that.

 

[MMADoc]

You believe that being cut is more merciful that being left on the waitlist till the bitter end but the alternative is to cut yourself (withdraw) but no one seems to advocate for that.

LizzyM, in general I agree with your points but I think you missed the train with this comment. I think applicants would be much better at withdrawing themselves if they had an idea of where they were on the waitlist. For example, an individual who is ranked in the top 30 would not withdraw cause of the increased likelihood of them getting pulled off the waitlist in comparison to someone in the bottom 30.

Also, word of advice for all the pre-meds, waiting to be pulled of the waitlist is just one of the many, many hoops you will have to jump through to be successful in medical school. My personal happiness and success increased significantly once I realized that any control I might have in medical school is an illusion and to just go with the flow.

 

[IlDestriero]

Hope for the best, plan for the worst.

This works for most things.

 

[Coleworld]

LizzyM, in general I agree with your points but I think you missed the train with this comment. I think applicants would be much better at withdrawing themselves if they had an idea of where they were on the waitlist. For example, an individual who is ranked in the top 30 would not withdraw cause of the increased likelihood of them getting pulled off the waitlist in comparison to someone in the bottom 30.

Also, word of advice for all the pre-meds, waiting to be pulled of the waitlist is just one of the many, many hoops you will have to jump through to be successful in medical school. My personal happiness and success increased significantly once I realized that any control I might have in medical school is an illusion and to just go with the flow.

Well-said about that Lizzym comment, and the waitlist business. I'm just wondering, when you got accepted were you a reapplicant? Either way if you have any advice for reapplicants, I'd appreciate hearing it.

Between this waitlist business and a million things going wrong with my reapplication, it's pretty stressful, and these are things I have no control over, and I spend most of days resolving.

 

[IlDestriero]

If there is no way that you can go to where you are on the wait list, the answer is simple, take yourself off.
Most will find a way unless they are already in somewhere else.

 

[DrShephardWannabe]

I don't think the process is unethical, but it does suck. But so do a lot of other things.

Commiting to an apartment the week before class starts is nigh impossible because it really TAKES TIME,

I'd sleep in a walmart parking lot in my car while searching for an apartment in the area if it meant I would become a doctor. Heck, it'll even make a great story later.

 

[The Real SVB]

I'd sleep in a walmart parking lot in my car while searching for an apartment in the area if it meant I would become a doctor. Heck, it'll even make a great story later.

Yeah, that was a dumb complaint of why the WL system is bad lol. So many ways around not having an apartment

 

[sazerac]

I was put in the wait list at UND. They told me I was number 40, and that they usually only pulled off 10 people a year from the list. They sent me updates every couple of weeks, but I think they only pulled off 11 people that year. It was nice.

In fact, everybody in North Dakota was nice.