How likely is surgery as a DO?

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Riceater

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I have done enough shadowing at this point to know that surgery is what I want to do. I almost don't even care what kind of surgery as long as I get to work with my hands on a semi-daily basis.

I'll graduate in May with a Master's in Biology and "fingers crossed" a 4.0 GPA.. but a 3.0 undergrad GPA (I worked more than I studied). I haven't taken the MCAT yet but I've been reviewing a little at a time and plan on studying all summer and taking it either late July or early August to make 2016 application deadlines.

So, my question is, if I don't score high enough to get into an MD school.. or for some reason I just don't get in to any MD schools, what does a DO have to do in order to get into surgery? My preference is either cardiothoracic, interventional, electrophysiology, orthopedic surgery, or neurosurgery (though neuro is uncertain due to how many years of training are required) but I'd probably be happy doing anything as long as I wasn't just seeing patients in a clinic day in and day out.

Are there specific DO schools that I should look at applying to? Do I need to be a rockstar DO student in order to even have a chance, in regard to my grades/USMLE scores? Or would I be better off retaking the MCAT and waiting another year just to get into an MD school?

Thanks in advance for your help!
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Sorry! Wasn't sure which would be more appropriate, as it was a mixture of a pre-DO and pre-residency inquiry. Thanks, though!
 
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Check out some of the recent threads on the GME merger and learn the process before you begin worrying about your chances. Ortho and neuro are very competitive whether MD or DO but both can be done and are done every year. Cardiothoracic is a fellowship following gen surgery residency although more categorical spots seem to be opening. Gen surgery is moderately competitive. The other two aren't surgery residencies but rather IM fellowships.

Rock the MCAT and apply where your stats fit. You will be able to be a surgeon as a DO
 
The more I learn about the DO world, the more I think it's likely. The DO world actually gives weight and credit to those that are passionate and try their hardest. Think someone with lower scores that can prove to be genuine in their interest has better chances at a DO survey than an MD student with similar stats and interests at an ACGME program.
 
Generally, it will be more difficult but is attainable as a DO. General surgery is definitely possible and orthopedic surgery is also definitely possible with awesome stats (there are many AOA ortho surg residencies), but neurosurgery will be incredibly difficult (but still also definitely possible)
 
Well, although most of the CT surgeons I have worked around are MDs, I have also worked with some excellent DO's in cardiac surgery. Years ago, people would whisper that they wouldn't get anywhere. Um, they have. They have won awards, published in many scientific journals, helped start programs, teach in medical schools, you name it. One fellow worked particularly hard for a long time, but it has paid off for him. I think he has many excellent qualities as both a physician and surgeon. He's come a long way since his fellowship.

I honestly haven't seen that many in neurosurg, but some of that may be about a number of places I've worked earlier on in my career. I see things changing.

I've said it before. Surgery, even from those of us closely looking from the outside in, well, to me, it's brutal. I think you really have to love it and be good at it to put up with the incredible stress and demands. I actually fear surgical rotations. Not b/c it would not be isn't interesting, but b/c of how incredibly tough it can be. I also feel for the spouses and partners of those in training for surgery. I have a very different personality. I respect the role and skills completely; but I wonder about putting up with some of the harshness.

I have friends that left surgical residencies, b/c they just couldn't take the brutality and harshness. LOL. They all ended up in anesthesia. I can only hope it's not all harsh, and the benefits of doing it outweigh all the crap you have to take. And I think it's a young person's path. There are exceptions, but after a certain point, it's just too wild for too long--the training. I never even wanted to work in the OR as an RN. The first time someone threw something at me, well. . .God help us all. Of course those are the drama stories, but it has happened. Not everyone is a calm Ben Carson. And apparently he had a problem with his temper at one point too. He somehow mastered it though.

But you know, good for those that do it and do it well. Someone HAS to do it. We'd be so screwed w/o good surgeons. I get along well with surgeons, but that's easier for me in ICU recovery, well for the most part, compared to the inner sanctum of the OR. Course things are video taped more nowadays in there.
 
In 2014 there were 5153 DO graduates:
173 DOs matched general surgery (44 acgme + 129 AOA)
103 DOs matched ortho (1 acgme +102 AOA)
16 DOs match neurosurgery (3 acgme + 13 AOA)
5 DOs matched thoracic surgery (1 acgme residency + 4 acgme fellowship. There is 1 DO fellowship in CT surgery.)

http://www.nrmp.org/match-data/
https://www.natmatch.com/aoairp/aboutstats.html
http://opportunities.osteopathic.org

You can be pretty much average for AOA general surgery, but you need to be above average for everything else. Both AOA NS and ortho have average Comlex scores in the 85th percentile. You probably need a 230+ on the usmle to match acgme general surgery. I don't know what you need to match acgme NS, ortho, or thoracic.
 
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If you could do MD...I would go that route. If you can't get MD...then go DO and wish for the best. No question that you are going to have to go above and beyond to get a surgery or surgical subspecialty as a DO. Plan to take both USMLEs and perform research on the side. You have to level the playing field.
 
Riceater said:
What's the difference between ACGME and AOA?
Click to expand...
Google...

ACGME is the board that is in charge of allopathic residencies (for MD students), AOA is the board that is in charge of osteopathic residencies (for DO students).

Historically though something like 60% of DO students go to ACGME residencies. Very recently (within the past year) an agreement has been met so as to merge the two groups, ie "unify" the match.
 
100% agree. My students are mainly interested in Primary Care, but every year we send some grads into ACGME Surgery or Ortho. Their consensus is that they have to work a bit harder, but it's doable.

Dr. Hopeful said:
Generally, it will be more difficult but is attainable as a DO. General surgery is definitely possible and orthopedic surgery is also definitely possible with awesome stats (there are many AOA ortho surg residencies), but neurosurgery will be incredibly difficult (but still also definitely possible)
Click to expand...
 
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Thanks for all of the info, guys! What I am seeing is about what I have heard. Are there stats on how many DOs don't get matched to their desired surgery residencies? That is, are the lower numbers of DO surgery residents more reflective of lack of interest in those specialties or lack of slots available to them? Or both?
 
Riceater said:
Thanks for all of the info, guys! What I am seeing is about what I have heard. Are there stats on how many DOs don't get matched to their desired surgery residencies? That is, are the lower numbers of DO surgery residents more reflective of lack of interest in those specialties or lack of slots available to them? Or both?
Click to expand...

I think more DO students are interested in primary care than MD students, but there are still plenty of DO students who wish to be specialists from day 1. In 2012, there 2.5 DO applicants per AOA neurosurgery spot, 2.05 applicants per AOA urology spot, and 1.7 applicants for every AOA general surgery and ortho spot. I think you see fewer DO surgeons because the lack of AOA surgical spots, the bias against DOs in the acgme world, and the fact that few DOs are truly competitive (board scores, LORs, research) for acgme surgical subspeciality residencies.

If you end up at an osteopathic school becoming a surgeon is still a reasonable goal. I'd just focus on AOA or acgme general surgery, AOA ortho, and, perhaps, acgme ophthalmology. That's just me, though.

Things do improve for osteopathic students each year, so I'd imagine the outlook will be better in 4 years from now when you're applying (or maybe the residency crunch will really happen and it will be horrible and you won't match and you'll end up working at best buy).
 
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doapplicant2015 said:
Check out some of the recent threads on the GME merger and learn the process before you begin worrying about your chances. Ortho and neuro are very competitive whether MD or DO but both can be done and are done every year. Cardiothoracic is a fellowship following gen surgery residency although more categorical spots seem to be opening. Gen surgery is moderately competitive. The other two aren't surgery residencies but rather IM fellowships.

Rock the MCAT and apply where your stats fit. You will be able to be a surgeon as a DO
Click to expand...
There are also integrated CT surgery residencies.
 
General surgery is very doable. I wouldn't count on surgical subspecialties though, as they are incredibly competitive and make bad baskets for putting all of your eggs in.

As to interventional, interventional what? Cardiology? Radiology? Neurology? All of them are doable as a DO.

Electrophysiology is a ridiculously long path- 3 years IM, 3 years cardiology, 2 years electrophys- but it is doable as a DO if you land a mid-tier IM residency out of school.
 
The DO I shadowed here in Jersey is a DO who specialized in orthopedic surgery and went to PCOM, then had a fellowship at Johns Hopkins specializing in foot and ankle surgery. He also didn't get in his first time applying because of a low MCAT.

You can do it OP.
 
It is doable for sure, and will be a lot easier with the new merger taking place for MDs and DOs.
 
This thread was kind of a repeat thread anyways (a quick search can tell you that), but this question right here almost made me throw my phone across the class room.

Riceater said:
What's the difference between ACGME and AOA?
Click to expand...
 
again, n=1 but I know a KCUMB grad who is the head of transplant surgery at a large allo school/hospital. I shadowed him on a pediatric liver/small bowel transplant.
 
If you are 100% sure you want to do surgery and you end up applying DO, look into the residency opportunities near the schools. As others have said, KCU(mb) has a significant number of students match into surgical fields at KU and UMKC hospitals every year, and a large part of that is because of proximity (they see more of us, know we're solid, and accept more of us than other schools). That's also how one of the DO alumni here matched ACGME plastics, exposure. There are plenty of surgical residencies out there that accept DOs from specific schools because of familiarity and exposure. Just something to think about.

cliquesh said:
Things do improve for osteopathic students each year, so I'd imagine the outlook will be better in 4 years from now when you're applying (or maybe the residency crunch will really happen and it will be horrible and you won't match and you'll end up working at best buy).
Click to expand...

Not trying to derail the thread, but is this because of the merger or just general numbers? If it's the merger why do you think it would turn out so poorly for DOs?
 
Stagg737 said:
Not trying to derail the thread, but is this because of the merger or just general numbers? If it's the merger why do you think it would turn out so poorly for DOs?
Click to expand...

I think one of the biggest fears is that many AOA programs will need to bump up their funding for ACGME accrediting (idk for what though, perhaps research and increase admin positions or what not) and that many of these AOA programs will not be able to do it and will essentially be forces to close (residents of that program will still be able to meet ACGME requirements because of a grace period set by ACGME) which will squeeze DO grads.

Idk. There were a lot of open AOA slots last year so it shouldn't be a big deal really but because of how many schools are opening up it may be worrying.
 
Stagg737 said:
If you are 100% sure you want to do surgery and you end up applying DO, look into the residency opportunities near the schools. As others have said, KCU(mb) has a significant number of students match into surgical fields at KU and UMKC hospitals every year, and a large part of that is because of proximity (they see more of us, know we're solid, and accept more of us than other schools). That's also how one of the DO alumni here matched ACGME plastics, exposure. There are plenty of surgical residencies out there that accept DOs from specific schools because of familiarity and exposure. Just something to think about.



Not trying to derail the thread, but is this because of the merger or just general numbers? If it's the merger why do you think it would turn out so poorly for DOs?
Click to expand...

It's a general numbers thing. In 2020 there are suppose to be more American graduates (DOs + MDs) than acgme residency spots. People were freaking out about it 2 years ago. I don't know if things have changed any. I haven't heard much talk about it lately.
 
AlteredScale said:
I think one of the biggest fears is that many AOA programs will need to bump up their funding for ACGME accrediting (idk for what though, perhaps research and increase admin positions or what not) and that many of these AOA programs will not be able to do it and will essentially be forces to close (residents of that program will still be able to meet ACGME requirements because of a grace period set by ACGME) which will squeeze DO grads.

Idk. There were a lot of open AOA slots last year so it shouldn't be a big deal really but because of how many schools are opening up it may be worrying.
Click to expand...

All of the open spots on natmatch.com were pre-scramble. Nearly all of them were taken post scramble.
 
I worked with a lot of DO surgical attendings, in various services that are supposed to be terribly competitive. So many that it is hard to keep track of them. There were a few ENT, Optho, Ortho, Gen Surg, basically every service except neuro and cardiothoracic, I know at least one attending DO surgeon. And they all came up when there was even more bias against DOs. Some graduated med school 20 or more years ago.

I would say, don't treat DO as if it is a second tier option. There are DO schools that I think are far better than some MD schools, and others not so much. My stats would likely have gotten me interviews at more than a few of the MD schools that I was considering, but I ultimately decided to apply DO only because I really like the DO schools near me, I had a lot of great DO role models, and the DO schools I was considering were less expensive than the MD schools on my list. You might also find that the schools that use teaching methods that work for you and that are otherwise best suited to your needs will be DO schools. They aren't just havens for people with MCATs below 30, and as more people like me realize that, you will see that the differential in stats starts to shrink until they become as competitive as MD programs.

At the end of it all, you get to be a doctor either way.
 
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