How many doctors actually do research?

[Krita]

As the title asks, how many doctors actually do wet-lab research? I know doctors publish findings on certain cases and some are even involved in the clinical trails held by pharmaceuticals. However, how many run or work in a traditional lab? I contemplated between MD/PhD for a long time, not wanting to do a combined degree due to expenses and also how much time it takes. I chose MD cause it would give me an opportunity to directly work with people as well as do research. So I'm just wondering how extensive I can get into research while practicing as a doctor. What specialties really allow for this? I've shadowed one ER doctor a while back but never asked him this question. I'm thinking once i get an idea I can arrange to shadow the kind of doctors that are more involved, so I get a real look at how my life might be with this career path. I hope that made sense. Thanks!

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[LizzyM]

The "cost" of an MD/PhD is the opportunity cost of taking off 4-5 years it takes to do the PhD. "Opportunity cost" in this situation means the money you don't make during those years that you are doing the PhD. This is off-set by MSTP (Medical Scientist Training Program) funding available to students in MD/PhD programs that cover tuition and a stipend for living expenses. This is a good choice if your vision of the ideal career would be taking care of patients 20% time and being in a wet lab 80% of the time.

Most physicians, even those in academic medicine careers, do not do wet lab research. Some do but it is rare. Just about any specialty might have physicains doing wet lab research although it would be more common in subspecialties than in primary care or emergency medicine. If you meet a physician who is on the faculty of a medical school, that physician may be able to introduce you to a physician-scientist who is combining clinical care and bench research.

 

[studentp0x]

The "cost" of an MD/PhD is the opportunity cost of taking off 4-5 years it takes to do the PhD. "Opportunity cost" in this situation means the money you don't make during those years that you are doing the PhD. This is off-set by MSTP (Medical Scientist Training Program) funding available to students in MD/PhD programs that cover tuition and a stipend for living expenses. This is a good choice if your vision of the ideal career would be taking care of patients 20% time and being in a wet lab 80% of the time.

Most physicians, even those in academic medicine careers, do not do wet lab research. Some do but it is rare. Just about any specialty might have physicains doing wet lab research although it would be more common in subspecialties than in primary care or emergency medicine. If you meet a physician who is on the faculty of a medical school, that physician may be able to introduce you to a physician-scientist who is combining clinical care and bench research.

Really 80% to 20% ? 😵

 

[bearded frog]

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[Microglia]

Really 80% to 20% ? 😵

Yep. This is in fact the most common end goal of the MD/PhD track. 6 days a week of research, 1 day a week of clinic. 😉

Often this is attained by focusing your clinic on becoming the world expert in X disease, and focusing your lab research around curing it, developing better therapeutics, and better diagnostics.

 

[WingedOx]

There are also "research track" residency programs to consider. I think my program has 4 doing that track right now. 3 were already MD/PhDs and one just a regular MD. One wants to do full-time research with enough clinical work to "make mad money" (he's odd). One wants to be about 70/30 research/clinical. one got sick of research and is doing full-time clinical, and the MD only wants to be about 20-30% research, though is more in the clinical rather than lab research realm.

 

[lumpyduster]

I know of many doctors who do research one day a week. And by that I mean they have one day a week devoted to a lab they supervise, and practice the remainder. Others will be primarily academics, teaching and lab work for most of the time, but still see patients one day a week.

The doctors who do this, do they usually work in someone's lab as a research scientist type gig? Just curious about what they could actually do/accomplish just working 1 day/week. I guess I am also having basic science research in mind, so maybe more translational/clinical work is different in terms of how much you need to be there to get anything done.

Interested in research as well, I just don't know how much. Anyone know someone proficient at both research and practice?

 

[Microglia]

The doctors who do this, do they usually work in someone's lab as a research scientist type gig? Just curious about what they could actually do/accomplish just working 1 day/week. I guess I am also having basic science research in mind, so maybe more translational/clinical work is different in terms of how much you need to be there to get anything done.

Interested in research as well, I just don't know how much. Anyone know someone proficient at both research and practice?

I've met tons of docs proficient at both, most of them are MD/PhD's on the bench research side of things. These docs are usually the absolute expert on a narrow field, and see mostly patients who fall into that field. They can do things like recruit the patients to give tissue samples for research, take that tissue to the bench and work on diagnostics/therapeutics, and then bring the diagnostics/therapeutics back to the patient. Bedside->Bench->Bedside.

On the clinical side just about all the docs at an academic center will either have research or administrative duties. If you want clinical research, it's super easy to start and you only need an MD. Bench research is where it takes quite a bit of effort to stay afloat, especially in this funding environment. Having an MD/PhD makes it a fair bit easier, but it's still quite tough to make it.

 

[smithers12]

The doctors who do this, do they usually work in someone's lab as a research scientist type gig? Just curious about what they could actually do/accomplish just working 1 day/week. I guess I am also having basic science research in mind, so maybe more translational/clinical work is different in terms of how much you need to be there to get anything done.

Interested in research as well, I just don't know how much. Anyone know someone proficient at both research and practice?

When you say "do research" consider that it is rare for doctors (or scientists, for that matter) to have the time to sit at the bench and pipette for the own experiments. PIs manage research groups, mentor post-docs and graduate students, write grants, sit on committees, and attend conferences.

The typical route most physicians interested in running an independent lab is to do a post-doc during their fellowship years. Time is usually built in during their fellowship to do a post-doc in an established lab. That's probably the closest to 'wet lab' work physicians will have the time to do.

There's specific grants for physicians interested in pursuing the typical physician-scientist track (K08). Getting these kinds of grants is a stepping stone to getting bigger R01-type awards so that they can recruit other PIs, post-docs, and graduate students to work for them. They can run a lab independently at this point.

This is all contingent on the clinical departments they are a part of being willing to give them protected time (1-2+ days a week off) to run that lab, of course.

 

[smithers12]

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[type12]

It's a VERY small percentage. I would say 3-5% are actively doing research, while 8-10% of all the physicians in the US are passively or indirectly involved in research.

Practicing (patient-seeing) physicians make up the bulk of US physicians, at least that was my experience profiling them for the better half of 2 years. Outside of the US, the number grows significantly.

 

[smithers12]

It's a VERY small percentage. I would say 3-5% are actively doing research, while 8-10% of all the physicians in the US are passively or indirectly involved in research.

Practicing (patient-seeing) physicians make up the bulk of US physicians, at least that was my experience profiling them for the better half of 2 years. Outside of the US, the number grows significantly.

I looked into this a bit more, and you're actually not that far off:

That makes sense though. Research doesn't earn hospitals revenue. Clinical care does. The unfortunate truth in this country is that every hour a physician spends in the lab is an hour lost making money.

 

[lumpyduster]

When you say "do research" consider that it is rare for doctors (or scientists, for that matter) to have the time to sit at the bench and pipette for the own experiments. PIs manage research groups, mentor post-docs and graduate students, write grants, sit on committees, and attend conferences.

The typical route most physicians interested in running an independent lab is to do a post-doc during their fellowship years. Time is usually built in during their fellowship to do a post-doc in an established lab. That's probably the closest to 'wet lab' work physicians will have the time to do.

There's specific grants for physicians interested in pursuing the typical physician-scientist track (K08). Getting these kinds of grants is a stepping stone to getting bigger R01-type awards so that they can recruit other PIs, post-docs, and graduate students to work for them. They can run a lab independently at this point.

This is all contingent on the clinical departments they are a part of being willing to give them protected time (1-2+ days a week off) to run that lab, of course.

Answers my question I think. Doctors are mainly PI's then? I guess I assumed that role would be more time intensive than a 1-2 day/wk thing but I agree that actually being in the lab running experiments takes more time in terms of having to physically be somewhere. I guess I'll have to decide somewhere down the road if I could ever see myself in that position and enjoying it.

 

[lumpyduster]

What the hell caused that spike around 1984 I wonder? The birth of PCR??

I looked into this a bit more, and you're actually not that far off:

That makes sense though. Research doesn't earn hospitals revenue. Clinical care does. The unfortunate truth in this country is that every hour a physician spends in the lab is an hour lost making money.

 

[NickNaylor]

If you look at the physicians at a big academic center, most of them are likely doing research. Get out into a community practice, though, and I imagine it's very, very little. Maybe some clinical work here and there, possibly involvement with a clinical trial if you're really into research and want to keep that side of things going. But most physicians practicing in a private environment likely aren't doing much research.

 

[smithers12]

Answers my question I think. Doctors are mainly PI's then? I guess I assumed that role would be more time intensive than a 1-2 day/wk thing but I agree that actually being in the lab running experiments takes more time in terms of having to physically be somewhere. I guess I'll have to decide somewhere down the road if I could ever see myself in that position and enjoying it.

That's an excellent point, and you are absolutely right. The most productive physician-scientists only have about one half day/one full day of clinic per week, and the rest of time is devoted to running the lab. This is the 80/20 number that is often thrown around (80% of their time is spent in the lab, 20% in the clinic).

'Productive' is always relative though. Physician-scientists constantly feel pressure from their 100% MD-only and 100% PhD-only peers.

 

[alpinism]

That's an excellent point, and you are absolutely right. The most productive physician-scientists only have about one half day/one full day of clinic per week, and the rest of time is devoted to running the lab. This is the 80/20 number that is often thrown around (80% of their time is spent in the lab, 20% in the clinic).

'Productive' is always relative though. Physician-scientists constantly feel pressure from their 100% MD-only and 100% PhD-only peers.

Which is why most MD/PhDs are more scientist-physicians than physician-scientists.