How many hours a week do physicians work?

[Rhapsody]

Is it possible to become an MD and choose to work 40 hour weeks, so you have free time for life? Is there any specialty you can choose to work in with hours like that?

Cheers,

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[number]

Yes.

 

[wahoo2009]

It's called working part-time.

 

[mercaptovizadeh]

Is it possible to become an MD and choose to work 40 hour weeks, so you have free time for life? Is there any specialty you can choose to work in with hours like that?

Cheers,

1.) Locum tenens. Probably no control over hours worked in a particular week, but certainly control over days/weeks/months worked in the year. Probably harder to do if bound to a particular location or have a family.

2.) Shift work. Hospitalist (IM or peds) or EM.

3.) Part time work in any number of specialties, but probably not many surgical specialties.

4.) Certain "full-time" high-pay hard-to-get-into specialties such as ophthalmology and dermatology, although the hours are probably closer to 50 actually.

 

[Law2Doc]

Is it possible to become an MD and choose to work 40 hour weeks, so you have free time for life? Is there any specialty you can choose to work in with hours like that?

Cheers,

The average hours in medicine are about 60 hours/week. As mentioned, there may be part time options in some fields, and to some extent you can set up your own practice in some fields (esp psych) and work whatever hours you want. But the part time paths are often harder to get (as more people want lifestyle hours than there are positions), usually come with a bit hit to salary/career progression. And often aren't recommended for new physicians because you are still in the learning phase of your career, and to get "good" at something you tend to need to devote a lot of time to it. And none of this is going to be possible during residency, where you probably will be working 70-80 hours/week avg in most fields.

As for lifestyle specialties, certainly things like derm have nicer hours (usually closer to 50 hours/wk once you are established), but this is a specialty that is extremely hard to get. If you only wanted to do derm I would not recommend going to med school because most won't get it. And EM has nice hours in terms of number (due to the nature of shift work), but a lot of those hours will be overnights (due to the nature of shift work), and so it won't be desirable for everyone. And you will be working hard every hour during your shift, so you don't have the down time most other fields do. So it is definitely not for everyone, and very often not for the type of person looking to minimize hours. Some say it's also very much a young person's field as it can be exhausting.

I'd suggest that it's probably smarter to assume you will be working about 60 hours/week and plan to balance the rest of your life accordingly. This is what most people who end up in medicine live life like. Best to plan for the norm. If you find a more lifestyle deal, then great. But going into medicine with the goal of working 30% fewer hours than the norm is pretty unrealistic IMHO.

 

[ThunderBear]

Thank you so much for this post. Really helped me think through some things.

 

[TAWS]

You can probably work part time (25 hours/wk) and still earn $100,000+. Sounds like a nice life-style to me.

 

[AFMD]

From what I understand talking to different physicians they can work however much they want. They might lose out on a specific location they'd like to work, and obviously pay. I think many physicians work a lot of hours because that's the type of person that medicine attracts. After med school and residency you're already used to working long hours.

 

[Hour30]

Remember residency is hard even if it is a lifestyle specialty. I am ENT and was on call every 4th night for 3 years, in-house. It's much better now as a senior resident.

But yes, it is possible to work 40 hours a week... but most work 50-60+. That's not really that much!

 

[ColeMine]

You can probably work part time (25 hours/wk) and still earn $100,000+. Sounds like a nice life-style to me.

This is very good advice to keep in mind. Work hard and live low for a year or two and pay off all your school loan debt and then cut your hours and enjoy life if lifestyle is a priority. It seems to me that the theme surrounding this career path is that you need to plan on being married to your work. If you're not that committed, then you shouldn't be doing this. I think that's a bunch of nonsense. Becoming a physician doesn't mean that you surrender your right to chart your own course in life.

 

[smq123]

You can probably work part time (25 hours/wk) and still earn $100,000+. Sounds like a nice life-style to me.

I find this very hard to believe, unless you are in an uber-lucrative field (like ortho spine, or something)....but in that case, it's unlikely that you're going to want to work part time, for a lot of reasons.

Part time in most office based fields pays $70K-$90K, roughly. Some offices are very reluctant to hire a part-time physician, because you're only getting part of the coverage, but you still have to pay out almost full malpractice. So, the practice that hires you loses out on the end.

Finally, and most med students do not understand this, but "part time" does NOT mean "25 hours a week." Most full time physician jobs are 60-80 hours a week, so "part time" is frequently actually closer to 40.

 

[doctorDoctor.]

I find this very hard to believe, unless you are in an uber-lucrative field (like ortho spine, or something)....but in that case, it's unlikely that you're going to want to work part time, for a lot of reasons.

Part time in most office based fields pays $70K-$90K, roughly. Some offices are very reluctant to hire a part-time physician, because you're only getting part of the coverage, but you still have to pay out almost full malpractice. So, the practice that hires you loses out on the end.

Finally, and most med students do not understand this, but "part time" does NOT mean "25 hours a week." Most full time physician jobs are 60-80 hours a week, so "part time" is frequently actually closer to 40.

So despite working only 20 or so hours less than full time, you get less than half the pay that the average physician would get?

For example, if you are a specialist whose field earns you approximately $220,000 a year full-time, you'll only be paid $70,000-$90,000 if you work a 40 hour week?

 

[PL198]

So despite working only 20 or so hours less than full time, you get less than half the pay that the average physician would get?

For example, if you are a specialist whose field earns you approximately $220,000 a year full-time, you'll only be paid $70,000-$90,000 if you work a 40 hour week?

Yeah the 70-90k thing makes no sense. A PA makes that much

 

[Winged Scapula]

Yeah the 70-90k thing makes no sense. A PA makes that much

Well she made that post over three years ago, practices in a state with a low reimbursement because of the high malpractice and is talking about a lower paid specialty. So yes if your specialty pays $150-$200,000 per year after expenses, part time would be around 70 to 90,000.

 

[wjs010]

Well she made that post over three years ago, practices in a state with a low reimbursement because of the high malpractice and is talking about a lower paid specialty. So yes if your specialty pays $150-$200,000 per year after expenses, part time would be around 70 to 90,000.

Holy crap that is low pay for the debt we go through in school

 

[Winged Scapula]

Holy crap that is low pay for the debt we go through in school

It doesn't have to be that low but I was responding in the perspective of someone that does OP FM with an often underinsured patient population.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

You could easily work 20 hours a week in psychiatry (a historically low paid but now becoming somewhat higher paid field) and make more than $100k. Just throwing that out there if you're into lifestyle considerations. Pretty good if you don't have debt.

 

[Law2Doc]

You could easily work 20 hours a week in psychiatry (a historically low paid but now becoming somewhat higher paid field) and make more than $100k. Just throwing that out there if you're into lifestyle considerations. Pretty good if you don't have debt.

True but unless we are talking about a hospital setting, rather than hanging up a shingle, it takes a fair amount of effort to keep those 20 hours of appointments booked, and overhead isn't free.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

True but unless we are talking about a hospital setting, rather than hanging up a shingle, it takes a fair amount of effort to keep those 20 hours of appointments booked, and overhead isn't free.

Where I am, you can get an employed outpatient position (often community MH) for 20 hours for more than $100k/year, so that takes care of the overhead. It's not going to be much more than $100k if you're only working 20 hours, but it won't be less either. It also might not be your dream job. I'm not sure if this is a unique feature to psychiatry or not, but yeah, part-time work is a pretty doable thing in my field with OK albeit not great pay.

 

[sloh]

Worked with a pm&r doc and pain management doc who worked for kaiser in San Diego. Both worked 35-40 hrs a week m-f. I know the latter made a little north of 300k per year

 

[Mad Jack]

So despite working only 20 or so hours less than full time, you get less than half the pay that the average physician would get?

For example, if you are a specialist whose field earns you approximately $220,000 a year full-time, you'll only be paid $70,000-$90,000 if you work a 40 hour week?

Overhead is generally fixed. If you're paying 100k in overhead for a doctor, and they pull in 300k working 60 hours, they net 200k after overhead. When they drop down to 40 hours, they're pulling in 200k gross, 100k net, so their pay gets halved. That's the nature of the beast. This largely applies in offices with fixed practice costs, such as rent, malpractice, utilities, staff, etc that the physicians pay directly. If you're working for a hospital in something like EM, urgent care (which is technically office based but functions far differently than an office setting in regard to how they handle employees), or as a hospitalist, overhead is less of an issue since you're just a body, allowing you to cut your hours with a a more direct cut in pay.

Inb4 streampaw regenerates just for this thread.

 

[Law2Doc]

Worked with a pm&r doc and pain management doc who worked for kaiser in San Diego. Both worked 35-40 hrs a week m-f. I know the latter made a little north of 300k per year

I know lots of people in these fields and though they may work in their offices for 35-40 hours a week, there's a lot of hustling and marketing they need to do to fill those appointments, sometimes even dwarfing the in office time. Kaiser and other insurers approve many providers in each locale but generally aren't the pipeline that sends the patients.

 

[sloh]

I know lots of people in these fields and though they may work in their offices for 35-40 hours a week, there's a lot of hustling and marketing they need to do to fill those appointments. Kaiser and other insurers approve many providers in each locale but generally aren't the pipeline that sends the patients.

Both physicians were quite candid with me about working for kaiser. The pain doc actually lamented how his autonomy was stripped working for kaiser. Nonetheless, he was willing to sacrifice autonomy because of the lifestyle friendly hours and that "after 430-5 m-th, I get to leave work at work and go home to my family". His friday was a half day

 

[Law2Doc]

Both physicians were quite candid with me about working for kaiser. The pain doc actually lamented how his autonomy was stripped working for kaiser. Nonetheless, he was willing to sacrifice autonomy because of the lifestyle friendly hours and that "after 430-5 m-th, I get to leave work at work and go home to my family". His friday was a half day

I still say he wasn't sharing with you everything he's doing to both keep that Kaiser relationship alive and get the local orthopods to send him business. Plus he still has to "run" the day to day operations. I know lots of these guys and they aren't really "off" outside of business hours if they want to be successful. I've also worked on bankruptcies of providers who lacked the hustle.

 

[sloh]

I still say he wasn't sharing with you everything he's doing to both keep that Kaiser relationship alive and get the local orthopods to send him business. Plus he still has to "run" the day to day operations. I know lots of these guys and they aren't really "off" outside of business hours if they want to be successful. I've also worked on bankruptcies of providers who lacked the hustle.

I see your point. Have to admit, there's no way I could really prove he was telling me the truth unless i stalked him haha. Then again, in this contemporary age of medicine with technology ever pervasive, how many physicians can really disconnect from work in the off hours?

 

[Law2Doc]

...Then again, in this contemporary age of medicine with technology ever pervasive, how many physicians can really disconnect from work in the off hours?

None, but I'm not sure it really changed with technology -- you just carry less paper now.

 

[DubVille]

Alot of my pm&r attendings make between 175-250k working 35-50 hours a week. The inpatient docs probably work less since residents are more useful in that setting. Not big money, but not too bad. They also have 45 min-1 hr for new patients and 20 min for follow ups. In PP you can make more, but will be hustling alot more.

 

[Law2Doc]

Alot of my pm&r attendings make between 175-250k working 35-50 hours a week. The inpatient docs probably work less since residents are more useful in that setting. Not big money, but not too bad. They also have 45 min-1 hr for new patients and 20 min for follow ups. In PP you can make more, but will be hustling alot more.

Having moved to the next stage of the medical game I can tell you that what you "see" as a resident is always less than what is happening. In an academic setting there are many "nonclinical" obligations attendings need to do (just to keep their job let alone get promoted) that sometimes drastically increase their hours. Meetings, committees, research, teaching -- it all adds up. Their clinical hours are just the tip of the iceberg residents get to see.

 

[sloh]

I still say he wasn't sharing with you everything he's doing to both keep that Kaiser relationship alive and get the local orthopods to send him business. Plus he still has to "run" the day to day operations. I know lots of these guys and they aren't really "off" outside of business hours if they want to be successful. I've also worked on bankruptcies of providers who lacked the hustle.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the whole appeal about working for a hospital corp is that you DON'T have to endure the headache of trying to garner patients from the community yourself. Essentially, kaiser was funneling patients towards him regardless of him promoting himself other than just practicing the way kaiser wanted him to during actual practice hours.

 

[DubVille]

Having moved to the next stage of the medical game I can tell you that what you "see" as a resident is always less than what is happening. In an academic setting there are many "nonclinical" obligations attendings need to do (just to keep their job let alone get promoted) that sometimes drastically increase their hours. Meetings, committees, research, teaching -- it all adds up. Their clinical hours are just the tip of the iceberg residents get to see.

Maybe so, but I'm walking with them out of the office or hospital 70% of the time. Plus, all but the chair and 3 others are hospital employed with no publishing duties and fairly limited committee involvement. I suppose they could be doing more at home than I believe. I've been in touch with the 2 previous graduating classes, most say 45-50 hours a week is average for them. 2 are working 55-60 and making more $$.

 

[sloh]

Not to say there's a direct correlation but after interviewing at 16 pm&r programs, the same theme ring true in residency. Save for ~3-4 more malignant programs among all the pm&r programs, the most rigorous days of inpatient medicine are an 8-4/5

 

[DubVille]

Not to say there's a direct correlation but after interviewing at 16 pm&r programs, the same theme ring true in residency. Save for ~3-4 more malignant programs among all the pm&r programs, the most rigorous days of inpatient medicine are an 8-4/5

Even taking 24 hour in house call once a week(post call day off), I averaged 57 hours a week as a pgy 2. So far as a pgy 3 I'm at 49 hours since i no longer take friday or saturday calls. Our busiest rotation here is spinal cord injury where your census is 15-20 and attending isnt around that often. I worked 7:30 to 5:30 or 6 most days for 3 months but no weekends or call. Otherwise 8:30 to 4:30 is the norm. I wont take any call next year, will be nice. Its odd that my residency lifestyle may be as good or slightly better than as an attending.

 

[Law2Doc]

... Its odd that my residency lifestyle may be as good or slightly better than as an attending.

It actually isn't odd at all. Early on in your post residency career you OFTEN see hours go up, not down. I sure am.

 

[Law2Doc]

Maybe so, but I'm walking with them out of the office or hospital 70% of the time. Plus, all but the chair and 3 others are hospital employed with no publishing duties and fairly limited committee involvement. I suppose they could be doing more at home than I believe...

It's a common misperception by residents. I also thought that way until I got farther down the road. You just aren't seeing the whole picture, nor are you privy to institutional expectations on your attendings with respect to promotions, tenure, job security and the like. The hours you work with the residents aren't the whole ballgame in any specialty.