How many hours/years of research are needed for top tier?

[glass-animal]

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Also I know poster presentations and pubs are a plus, but do people get in to Top 20s without them? My passion is volunteer work and I will likely have hundreds of hours of it, but I don't want research to limit my options.

 

[piii]

3

 

[Astra]

3

no

 

[Endoxifen]

Several? Definitely some. Or none. Do what you like really.

 

[gyngyn]

It's not that simple.

 

[glass-animal]

It's not that simple.

could you elaborate?

 

[gyngyn]

could you elaborate?

Schools do not pick students based on the number of hours completed (of anything, including research).
We pick the people who exemplify the characteristics we value as an institution.

 

[Dr. Stalker]

could you elaborate?

Try to get some meaningful research in something you're passionate about. "Any research = good research for medical school" is sort of true. If you're MD/PhD bound, you want to have strong research bench science.

If you're passionate about medical research and volunteering, look into clinical/translational research. You may end up pleasantly surprised in a lab.

Lastly, if none of that research is appealing for you, don't limit yourself to research you think will impress. Do what you're passionate about. A friend of mine (now MS-2 at a midtier US Allopathic school) did research in ecology/evolution cause she loved it. Her lab did nothing with cancer or biochem or other "pre-med research." Her's was on plant stuff, but she loved it and had a blast in lab.

Personal anecdote: I thought I loved chemical biology my freshman year, and so I did research for one semester in the lab and hated it and ended up going to another lab that I actually did love it.

 

[Lifeblood_20]

If you are questioning if you have enough, you don't. Top tier gets very well-rounded applicants that have done both meaningful volunteer work and research. But do what you are passionate about, by all means.

 

[glass-animal]

If you are questioning if you have enough, you don't. Top tier gets very well-rounded applicants that have done both meaningful volunteer work and research. But do what you are passionate about, by all means.

I'm not questioning if I have enough, I know i don't. Rather, I'm asking how much would be safe bet to check it off my checklist and focus on the things I'm truly passionate about. I know there isn't an exact cutoff but I'm asking for a ballpark range/general expectations for the amount and magnitude of research needed to be competitive.

 

[dr.Breezy]

I'm not questioning if I have enough, I know i don't. Rather, I'm asking how much would be safe bet to check it off my checklist and focus on the things I'm truly passionate about. I know there isn't an exact cutoff but I'm asking for a ballpark range/general expectations for the amount and magnitude of research needed to be competitive.

LOL This is such a premed mentality "how much blah blah blah do I need to check my box on lists of things to do to be competitive for a top 20 med school" . It's this bull cookie cutter mentality that makes med schools roll their eyes and cringe.


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[Lawpy]

Also I know poster presentations and pubs are a plus, but do people get in to Top 20s without them? My passion is volunteer work and I will likely have hundreds of hours of it, but I don't want research to limit my options.

People get into Top 20s with no productivity. People get into Top 20s with no research.

I'm not questioning if I have enough, I know i don't. Rather, I'm asking how much would be safe bet to check it off my checklist and focus on the things I'm truly passionate about. I know there isn't an exact cutoff but I'm asking for a ballpark range/general expectations for the amount and magnitude of research needed to be competitive.

Medical school admissions should not be treated like a checklist. If you don't like research, don't do it. Service to the community is much more important.

 

[glass-animal]

People get into Top 20s with no productivity. People get into Top 20s with no research.



Medical school admissions should not be treated like a checklist. If you don't like research, don't do it. Service to the community is much more important.

I'm sure there are some people that get in to Top 20s with no research, but the vast majority do. You're saying doing no research at all would not impact my chance of getting in to a Top 20 in any way? That seems unlikely lol.

 

[Lawpy]

I'm sure there are some people that get in to Top 20s with no research, but the vast majority do. You're saying doing no research at all would not impact my chance of getting in to a Top 20 in any way? That seems unlikely lol.

I'm saying it is definitely possible to get into a Top 20 with no research. That's all. Having no volunteerism or clinical experience is lethal. Whether the lack of research has an impact on Top 20 schools depends on the school in question (e.g. Stanford would probably ding applicants with zero research) and the rest of your application.

 

[mw18]

There are people at my school who did Rhodes and there are people who did the tiniest bit and probably a few who did none. It is a spectrum and the overall gestalt of the application is what matters. If you work in a lab for a year, present at your school's research day and can talk about your project in an interview, it won't be the reason you don't get in.

 

[DameJulie]

Regarding research, which one matters most and more likely to stand out and give you an advantage in the app??
1. Number of hours
2. Length of duration (e.g. one year, two summers)
3. # of publication/author position/conference posters
4. PI's LOR

 

[Soccer171983]

Regarding research, which one matters most and more likely to stand out and give you an advantage in the app:
1. Number of hours
2. Length of duration (e.g. one year, two summers)
3. # of publication/author position/conference posters
4. PI's LOR

1+2+3 likely will increase the quality of #4. There is no minimum or maximum. I know people who have done no research but had exceptional other aspects (volunteer service, military service, professional athlete etc). I know some people who had tons of research and decent grades but didn't get into medical school. A combo of decent grades with something showing you are "well rounded" (for some thats extracurriculars, research, volunteer, shadowing etc) is best chances. Med schools are looking to take people who are going to likely succeed (this takes intelligence, perseverance, patience) but are not completely devoid of humanistic qualities (can you empathize and interact with patients?). If you want a standard answer your not really going to get one any different than something like "3.5 gpa, 30's mcat, research with publications, volunteer/shadowing".

 

[glass-animal]

Regarding research, which one matters most and more likely to stand out and give you an advantage in the app:
1. Number of hours
2. Length of duration (e.g. one year, two summers)
3. # of publication/author position/conference posters
4. PI's LOR

Thank you. Does a PI's LOR really hold that little weight? I assumed it would be 1 or 2

 

[DameJulie]

Thank you. Does a PI's LOR really hold that little weight? I assumed it would be 1 or 2

1+2+3 likely will increase the quality of #4.

It was meant to be a question, not my opinion. My bad.

For instance, would someone who had worked part-time in a lab for a year but had two middle-author publications attract be more attractive than someone who had work in a lab all four years (more total hours & duration) but had nothing published/presented?

My point is, what counts most in research when it comes to med school application? What should student prioritize to get out of research? I am not looking for the "being passionate and knowledgeable talking about your research at interview" kind of answer.

 

[Lawpy]

Regarding research, which one matters most and more likely to stand out and give you an advantage in the app??
1. Number of hours
2. Length of duration (e.g. one year, two summers)
3. # of publication/author position/conference posters
4. PI's LOR

It was meant to be a question, not my opinion. My bad.

I'd probably say from most important to least important: 4 > 2 > 3 >>>>> 1. PIs vouching for you and writing you strong letters will help you a lot for sure. Generally, the longer and more productive the research, the more valuable the experience (although the same can be said for other activities like volunteerism and leadership). Publications and presentations may help for top tiers and MD/PhD programs but they are not necessary. And you shouldn't be counting hours for research but instead understand how/why research is done and appreciate science.

 

[Pandion]

Well. N=1, anecdotes are not data, but I got in to a top-tier school with no extracurricular research in undergrad. I did have a research assistant internship the summer after college (data collection, basically, I was barely involved in the actual research), and I did a masters which required a thesis, but it was in biological anthropology and only tangentially related to medicine.

So that was one project, probably less than a year altogether, and no posters or pubs (I did submit a manuscript, but they're taking FOREVER to decide on it).

Having said that, while at most schools interviewers either didn't mention the masters or asked me other questions about it (I went abroad; I got a lot of "what was living in X like"), the top tier was the one place where the interviewer was really into it and wanted to hear all the specifics.

See if you can find a project that you find interesting. Doesn't have to be benchwork - if your passion is volunteering maybe something in public health or social science? On the policy side? Something more epidemiological? My summer job was with a nonprofit doing ecological research.

 

[Lucca]

It was meant to be a question, not my opinion. My bad.

For instance, would someone who had worked part-time in a lab for a year but had two middle-author publications attract be more attractive than someone who had work in a lab all four years (more total hours & duration) but had nothing published/presented?

My point is, what counts most in research when it comes to med school application? What should student prioritize to get out of research? I am not looking for the "being passionate and knowledgeable talking about your research at interview" kind of answer.

In MD applications the LOR is likely more important than any other component. Then the products of the research (posters, a thesis, pubs, research awards) and finally the duration. For MD/Phd I would say duration is more important than products but not as important as the PI letter.

For that reason, it's not necessary to stick to research. It's OK to try it and then spend your time doing something else (95% of the people at most schools are going to have *some* amount of research experience with varying degrees of involvement, quality, and duration). The important thing is that you demonstrate qualities that medical schools would be interested in, as evidenced by the work itself or your PIs recommendation.

 

[Soccer171983]

It was meant to be a question, not my opinion. My bad.

For instance, would someone who had worked part-time in a lab for a year but had two middle-author publications attract be more attractive than someone who had work in a lab all four years (more total hours & duration) but had nothing published/presented?

My point is, what counts most in research when it comes to med school application? What should student prioritize to get out of research? I am not looking for the "being passionate and knowledgeable talking about your research at interview" kind of answer.

bench research with publication is the best if your looking for something rigorous that will be viewed favorably with tier one medical school.

 

[Endoxifen]

bench research with publication is the best if your looking for something rigorous that will be viewed favorably with tier one medical school.

Here's an interesting question for you: how do you think a first author bench paper would be perceived if you did the clinical and statistical analyses, along with the actual writing, but not the bench work.

 

[Soccer171983]

It's still very good! even if you just did the stats but had some non-other bench research it still shows your academically engaged just in different capacities. I would look at that as a strength. Couple that with some volunteer, good mcat/gpa and your on track to get in somewhere (you'll still be a doc!). To get into the top top top tier I am not sure there is an exact formula but this still excellent work you have done.

 

[Turkishking]

Some applicants have 2-3 years. It varies.

 

[DameJulie]

bench research with publication is the best if your looking for something rigorous that will be viewed favorably with tier one medical school.

Could you define "bench research"? Sounds to me those are the traditional basic science research that utilizes the DNA technologies, Chem NMR stuffs.

I agree with @Lawper @Lucca that the most influential part of research is the PI LOR and that depends on your relationship with the PI and your production/work in the lab

A follow up Q: What would be considered as a shining from LOR? Of course, the PI will evaluate your work in lab and say how your qualities will make you a good candidate for doctor. But is there any "magic ingredients" that stands out to adcom? Like tell a detailed story where you saved the lab in crisis? (I am exaggerating here).
My impression of PI LORs are pretty formulaic: "Person X worked in my lab for years, and he has such qualities to fit your MD/DO program." I would like to hear some comments on how PI letters can significantly improve one's app, and sets unique perspective from other LORs (science prof, etc).

 

[Goro]

Thank you. Does a PI's LOR really hold that little weight? I assumed it would be 1 or 2

I'm going to disagree with my learned colleagues and give my perception, which is that most PIs only write about you in terms of your laboratory productivity and experience. They can tell us how diligent you are and attentive and productive, but they do not tell us if you can handle med school or if you'd make a good doctor.

The LORs from PIs I've read always seem as if they think the applicant is aiming for grad school, not med school. Must be a constitutional defect.

Our pal @mimelim has comments that productivity is what he looks for.

 

[Goro]

Here's an interesting question for you: how do you think a first author bench paper would be perceived if you did the clinical and statistical analyses, along with the actual writing, but not the bench work.

How would an Adcom know this? Even if we did, it would make much of a difference.

 

[Endoxifen]

How would an Adcom know this? Even if we did, it would make much of a difference.

I would openly admit it if asked during an interview.

 

[Goro]

unless of course the PI has a position as medical faculty and teaches med students

True that!

 

[Goro]

I would openly admit it if asked during an interview.

A contribution to knowledge is always good.

 

[Endoxifen]

True that!

Would a PI who is also a clinician have any special significance?

 

[DameJulie]

Our pal @mimelim has comments that productivity is what he looks for.

Would you mind elaborating on "productivity"? I might took this too literally, but it sounds like the PI can say the student has exceeded his/her expectation for an undergrad and committed as someone who works full-time in lab. Or something as plain as "he/she published x papers on xx journals," which these info can be reported by the applicant.

 

[DameJulie]

unless of course the PI has a position as medical faculty and teaches med students

A rather bold question here: Does a PI's LOR who happens to be a MD/DO gives more advantage to the applicant as if the PI is a PhD?

 

[Endoxifen]

It's still very good! even if you just did the stats but had some non-other bench research it still shows your academically engaged just in different capacities. I would look at that as a strength. Couple that with some volunteer, good mcat/gpa and your on track to get in somewhere (you'll still be a doc!). To get into the top top top tier I am not sure there is an exact formula but this still excellent work you have done.

Thank you!

 

[coffeeandcodeine]

I'm not questioning if I have enough, I know i don't. Rather, I'm asking how much would be safe bet to check it off my checklist and focus on the things I'm truly passionate about. I know there isn't an exact cutoff but I'm asking for a ballpark range/general expectations for the amount and magnitude of research needed to be competitive.

No judgement, but I'm wondering why you're aiming for a Top 20 institution if you aren't passionate about research. The main advantage of these schools is that they give you the resources to launch a career in research and academic medicine. Most often they have considerable built-in time dedicated to research, which is frequently a mandatory part of the curriculum. There are plenty of excellent non-top 20 schools that will prepare you for a very successful, service-oriented career in medicine. There are also some Top 20 schools that have an excellent focus on service (UCSF, for example), but in general the top 20s are more research-oriented than service-oriented.

 

[Gurby]

No judgement, but I'm wondering why you're aiming for a Top 20 institution if you aren't passionate about research. The main advantage of these schools is that they give you the resources to launch a career in research and academic medicine. Most often they have considerable built-in time dedicated to research, which is frequently a mandatory part of the curriculum. There are plenty of excellent non-top 20 schools that will prepare you for a very successful, service-oriented career in medicine. There are also some Top 20 schools that have an excellent focus on service (UCSF, for example), but in general the top 20s are more research-oriented than service-oriented.

Research is mandatory for matching into some specialties and for matching into a higher end residency which is important if you want to become really good as a physician?

Quote from a friend of mine who went HMS -> Harvard residency -> Harvard fellowship, "I can't wait until I can stop pretending to care about research". He knew he had to jump through the hoops to get where he wanted to be professionally, and coming from a top tier school helped with that.

 

[glass-animal]

No judgement, but I'm wondering why you're aiming for a Top 20 institution if you aren't passionate about research. The main advantage of these schools is that they give you the resources to launch a career in research and academic medicine. Most often they have considerable built-in time dedicated to research, which is frequently a mandatory part of the curriculum. There are plenty of excellent non-top 20 schools that will prepare you for a very successful, service-oriented career in medicine. There are also some Top 20 schools that have an excellent focus on service (UCSF, for example), but in general the top 20s are more research-oriented than service-oriented.

Similar sentiment to what @Gurby said. I don't hate research, but I'm not "passionate" about it. I think there are plenty of other things that Top 20s offer other than fulfilling a passion for research. One particular benefit I see is a higher chance of matching into more competitive specialties/residency programs.

 

[LizzyM]

Similar sentiment to what @Gurby said. I don't hate research, but I'm not "passionate" about it. I think there are plenty of other things that Top 20s offer other than fulfilling a passion for research. One particular benefit I see is a higher chance of matching into more competitive specialties/residency programs.

Do you realize that the more competitive specialties/ residency programs highly value research productivity? So much so that some candidates take an extra year of med school just to do research. Don't wish for something you aren't going to want.

What is the purpose of your volunteer work? Could you talk with someone at the management level to determine if an assessment of outcomes of the volunteer service, e.g. does it accomplish what it seeks to accomplish. While it isn't generalizable knowledge, it does require some scientific method and might be of interest to you.