How many programs needed to match???

[GCS]

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Osteopathic student. "Guarenteed" EM spot at good osteopathic program. 4 allopathic interviews hence only have 4 programs to rank. Is is too much of a risk to bypass osteopathic match to participate in the allopathic match with a list only 4 deep? I would love to go to any of the 4 allopathic programs but do not want to risk not matching. I'm pretty torn about what to do. Any suggestions, opinions???

thanks

 

[Seaglass]

I would say yes, it's pretty risky. If I recall correctly 8 is the magic number.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Osteopathic student. "Guarenteed" EM spot at good osteopathic program. 4 allopathic interviews hence only have 4 programs to rank. Is is too much of a risk to bypass osteopathic match to participate in the allopathic match with a list only 4 deep? I would love to go to any of the 4 allopathic programs but do not want to risk not matching. I'm pretty torn about what to do. Any suggestions, opinions???

thanks

The rumor for allo students is you need 8. I will leave the specific opinions to the DOs on here cause I dont know much about this. Good luck though man with whatever decision you make!

 

[DrQuinn]

On the other hand, it only takes one program to rank you high enough for you to match there. Statistically, the majority of applicants match in their top 3. Let's say your #3 or #4 really like you and rank you high enough to match. You'll obviuosly never know until you try.

And as for the "guaranteed" match at the osteopathic spot, those happen all the time. The competitiveness for EM Osteopathic spots is, well, not competitive. Keep in mind as well that there are always a handful of unfilled spots that programs scramble to fill as well.

If your 4 programs you interviewed at are remotely DO friendly, you probably stand a good chance. PM me if you want to discuss in private.

Q

 

[EctopicFetus]

There you have it from someone who KNOWS!

 

[GeneralVeers]

There you have it from someone who KNOWS!

There's not guarantee that you'll match with any number or that you won't match with any number. As has been mentioned most people get their top 3 choices.

I interviewed at 6 places last year, which I thought was more than ample to get a spot. I thought wrong.

 

[morgaleese]

Are you tied to a certain area geographically? If so, you are taking a risk, because if you don't match at one of those 4 allopathic programs the scramble may take you away from "home." If geography is not an issue, I say stay in it...worst case scenario you will scramble. Virtually every year there is some very good program that does not fill as a fluke (example, Resurrection in recent history--can't remember if it was last year or the year before, I'm getting old--had several unfilled spots, which made for some very lucky scramblers-they ended up getting into a program that was most likely better than any of the ones they originally got interviews at. There are so many great allopathic EM programs, and so few bad ones, that I would take a chance if you're free to go wherever. And as the others have mentioned, don't understimate yourself, you may actually be in good position on one or more of those four programs you interviewed at. Usually programs that aren't DO-friendly won't interview DOs to begin with.

Life is all about choices, but if the ultimate goal is to be an ER doc, things will eventually work out no matter what. The very best of luck to you, hope you get exactly what you want.

Osteopathic student. "Guarenteed" EM spot at good osteopathic program. 4 allopathic interviews hence only have 4 programs to rank. Is is too much of a risk to bypass osteopathic match to participate in the allopathic match with a list only 4 deep? I would love to go to any of the 4 allopathic programs but do not want to risk not matching. I'm pretty torn about what to do. Any suggestions, opinions???

thanks

 

[corpsmanUP]

I think it all depends on which programs you are ranking in the ACGME match. If they are all 4 very competitive programs, then you may be in trouble. But if they are all 4 mediocre, then you are probably okay. You might want to consider checking into whether or not one of the 4 programs would be willing to sign you outside the match. If they like you, they may be willing. You should have a better feel the week before the ROL is due because they might be contacting you and giving you some feedback. If all else fails, think about contacting the PD and telling them the situation you are in. It can't hurt.

 

[morgaleese]

A PD probably wouldn't hold it against you if you did what corpsman suggests, but you probabaly won't gain much from it either. Unless you have right of first refusal at a program (ie 10 spots and you are ranked in the top ten on their list), they aren't going to be able to give you a guarantee one way or another--it all depends on what kind of a year they have, and how the chips fall. A 10-spot program may go to 20, or they may go to 100 on their list, it's just not predictable for any given year EVEN WITH COMPETITIVE PROGRAMS, contrary to popular belief. The PD might be willing to give you a general feel for where you stand with their program, but getting specific is a no-no. So ultimately it's the choice YOU make. Based on my experience, I'd say 4 interviews is a grey area; if you only had one or two I'd be pretty pessimistic, but considering a lot of people end up with one of their top choices, you may even have a little padding. Plus, again, remember that there is (almost) always the scramble.

A program adhering to NRMP guidelines will not sign you outside of the match. I would never sign with any program willing to do that. AND while we're on the subject...programs who do not contact you the week before your list is due aren't always saying they aren't interested in you. Sometimes they are just following the rules! So don't use that as some kind of ruler. My #1 choice (and where I ultimately trained) was actually the ONLY program in my top five who didn't contact/email/write me before ROL were due.

I think it all depends on which programs you are ranking in the ACGME match. If they are all 4 very competitive programs, then you may be in trouble. But if they are all 4 mediocre, then you are probably okay. You might want to consider checking into whether or not one of the 4 programs would be willing to sign you outside the match. If they like you, they may be willing. You should have a better feel the week before the ROL is due because they might be contacting you and giving you some feedback. If all else fails, think about contacting the PD and telling them the situation you are in. It can't hurt.

 

[BKN]

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A program adhering to NRMP guidelines will not sign you outside of the match. I would never sign with any program willing to do that. .

I believe Corpsman was referring to the fact that programs can write a contract prematch with MDs, IMGs, DOs and DO students and then pull the position from the match. I think that the only prohibition is no prematch with allopathic 4th year students.

That said, I don't think it will work. I don't offer prematch and I suspect that such deals would be rare in EM. We don't need to do that. 🙂

 

[DrMom]

Personally, I've only heard of FM programs offering DO students prematch postitions.

 

[rxfudd]

I am actually aware of one DO student who was offered an EM spot prematch, but I believe she is declining it to try to match elsewhere.

 

[morgaleese]

Ah, yes, I stand corrected...I forgot that there is that accession for "practicing" MDs and DOs, and IMGs, and DO students. Our program has never used it, either. Again, I would wonder about a program that did, short of some uniquely exceptional first-hand information.

I believe Corpsman was referring to the fact that programs can write a contract prematch with MDs, IMGs, DOs and DO students and then pull the position from the match. I think that the only prohibition is no prematch with allopathic 4th year students.

That said, I don't think it will work. I don't offer prematch and I suspect that such deals would be rare in EM. We don't need to do that. 🙂

 

[corpsmanUP]

Personally, I've only heard of FM programs offering DO students prematch postitions.

I was surprised that the subject was brought up to me twice on the trail this year. Once by a PD, and once by a resident who said he spoke for the program (who knows if he really did). Both programs were up north and routinely have DO's. I felt uncomfortable with it though both times because neither program was one that I would have been willing to drop everything for right then and sign. I wish they would just close the loophole because it puts added pressure on DO's at times.

But since we are on the subject, if you really read the match agreement, there is NOTHING that prohibits either the applicant or program from telling the other where they are ranking them. It simply states that the ranking cannot be solicited by either party, and that neither party should place much stock in any verbal statement by the other. I read it just last month and specifically recall this, so how about we stop all the freaking rumors. There is also no violation about contacting parties the last week that I know of. There is simply a violation if a program contacts non-matchers before noon of the scramble day. Prior to 2 days pre-match, I think anyone can contact who they want and say pretty much anything.

 

[morgaleese]

There is appropriate behavior, and inappropriate behavior. Although from time to time applicants will re-contact a program to tell them "you're number one," (check out the other thread to see whether or not people think this makes any difference), I think the majority opinion (PDs feel free to chime in) is that it's not appropriate for a PD to contact an applicant and do the same, because it undermines the match process. Following or not following the rules boils down to doing the right thing vs looking out for yourself. Some PDs take this very principle seriously, and limit post-interview contact to making themselves available for questions/further contact initiated by the applicant. Others do what they feel they need to do to get where and what they want.

Wait until that week comes for you, oh faithful and competitive medical student, and you will see what I mean by programs not "following the rules." My advice is to prepare in advance what you will say when a program a ways down but not off your list comes calling. Best of luck to you in the match itself.

I was surprised that the subject was brought up to me twice on the trail this year. Once by a PD, and once by a resident who said he spoke for the program (who knows if he really did). Both programs were up north and routinely have DO's. I felt uncomfortable with it though both times because neither program was one that I would have been willing to drop everything for right then and sign. I wish they would just close the loophole because it puts added pressure on DO's at times.

But since we are on the subject, if you really read the match agreement, there is NOTHING that prohibits either the applicant or program from telling the other where they are ranking them. It simply states that the ranking cannot be solicited by either party, and that neither party should place much stock in any verbal statement by the other. I read it just last month and specifically recall this, so how about we stop all the freaking rumors. There is also no violation about contacting parties the last week that I know of. There is simply a violation if a program contacts non-matchers before noon of the scramble day. Prior to 2 days pre-match, I think anyone can contact who they want and say pretty much anything.

 

[8744]

There's not guarantee that you'll match with any number or that you won't match with any number. As has been mentioned most people get their top 3 choices.

I interviewed at 6 places last year, which I thought was more than ample to get a spot. I thought wrong.

Amen. I was in much the same spot last year. I have nine this year but one (at Duke) is probably a courtesy interview so I'm going into the match with eight solid interviews and one extreme long shot. (Not that I wouldn't love matching at Duke)

And I don't feel very confident about it either.

 

[DrQuinn]

Actually, when I was applying (2003 season), I personally knew a DO from Touro who matched in EM outside the match. Good for her!

I actually asked my PD to sign outside the match, I wanted it #1, and straight up asked him (in person, on my second look), and he said no. *tsk tsk*. Oh well.

Q