How many should I be applying to?

[LakeFog]

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I have no idea how hard postbacs are to get into. I have a 3.74 general GPA, around a 3.80 science GPA, and 1400 on my SATs. I'll probably be applying to Goucher, Bryn Mawr, Johns Hopkins, Harvard Extension, and possibly more in Boston if I find ones I like. How many of these should I apply to?

 

[TyrKinase]

What science courses have you completed? I'm guessing you're looking to complete the medical school pre-requisites because there's no sense in going to a post-bacc with that GPA if you've already taken all the classes you need.

 

[LakeFog]

I'll need chemistry, organic chemistry, and biology (though I did get a 5 on my AP bio test several years ago). My bachelor's is in mathematical and physical sciences.

 

[Ishiguro]

I'll need chemistry, organic chemistry, and biology (though I did get a 5 on my AP bio test several years ago). My bachelor's is in mathematical and physical sciences.

A year of physics shouldn't be too much to disqualify you from the formal programs. I'm an incoming Goucher student with very little knowledge of admissions, but your numbers look pretty competitive to me.

The nice thing is that admissions is rolling at (all of?) the programs you're looking at. So you can save yourself some time/money/headache and apply to the ones you are most interested in early on, then add applications to less competitive programs, or put you app in for Harvard extension (which you'd definitely be OK for) if you don't get in right away. Goucher, at least, was terrific with turnaround. From the time I submitted my application to the acceptance letter was under a month (I was able to interview right away). The interviews give you nice opportunity to compare programs, so maybe apply Goucher/Bryn Mawr/Hopkins all at once early this fall? See where you land, and re-evaluate later?

 

[NewmansOwn]

I have no idea how hard postbacs are to get into. I have a 3.74 general GPA, around a 3.80 science GPA, and 1400 on my SATs. I'll probably be applying to Goucher, Bryn Mawr, Johns Hopkins, Harvard Extension, and possibly more in Boston if I find ones I like. How many of these should I apply to?

Apply to all of them. If you have good extracurriculars/volunteer work, you'll have a great shot at getting into all. If you have zero extracurriculars/volunteer work, you won't get into any of them (though I'm not an HES expert; the admissions process might be different).

 

[LakeFog]

I'll have 300 hours of volunteering at a hospital, 360 hours of math/cs research, and lots of leadership experience. I'm trying to get some shadowing in as well. I think I'm doing alright in my ECs.

 

[doctorhoskinson]

I have no idea how hard postbacs are to get into. I have a 3.74 general GPA, around a 3.80 science GPA, and 1400 on my SATs. I'll probably be applying to Goucher, Bryn Mawr, Johns Hopkins, Harvard Extension, and possibly more in Boston if I find ones I like. How many of these should I apply to?

You're a textbook candidate for Harvard Extension. You will get in with that GPA. Just focus on good LOR and getting between a (32-33) on the MCATs. With everything else, you're a great candidate.

 

[LakeFog]

You're a textbook candidate for Harvard Extension. You will get in with that GPA. Just focus on good LOR and getting between a (32-33) on the MCATs. With everything else, you're a great candidate.

Why Harvard Extension in particular?

 

[drizzt3117]

I think your best bet would be BM or Goucher out of the schools you mentioned. You're only looking at East Coast programs, right?

 

[doctorhoskinson]

Why Harvard Extension in particular?

Harvard has enormous resources at their disposal and with your academic performance, I figure you could tap into them. Many from the HES get into Boston College's medical school because the Harvard folks know the people in admissions (and for that matter almost every major school on the east coast).

The research and clinical opportunities are also very abundant at Harvard. It's simply a really good program, especially for those who have very strong academics. Contact the program director William Fixsen and he will explain why HES is so good.

 

[drizzt3117]

Harvard has enormous resources at their disposal and with your academic performance, I figure you could tap into them. Many from the HES get into Boston College's medical school because the Harvard folks know the people in admissions (and for that matter almost every major school on the east coast).

BC doesn't have a medical school. If you are talking about BU, then some people definitely go from HES to BU but the OP would have a better chance to do so from one of the top postbacs.

The research and clinical opportunities are also very abundant at Harvard. It's simply a really good program, especially for those who have very strong academics. Contact the program director William Fixsen and he will explain why HES is so good.

The research and clinical opportunities are good simply because you don't take classes during the day, but someone with the OP's qualifications should be going to a better program (BM, Goucher, Scripps) that will get them through faster (1 year) with equal or better opportunities. HES is not the same as Harvard, and the extension programs don't have anywhere near the resources of the top postbacs.

 

[doctorhoskinson]

BC doesn't have a medical school. If you are talking about BU, then some people definitely go from HES to BU but the OP would have a better chance to do so from one of the top postbacs.

Sorry, I tend to get some names confused on the east coast. I was referring to BU.

The research and clinical opportunities are good simply because you don't take classes during the day, but someone with the OP's qualifications should be going to a better program (BM, Goucher, Scripps) that will get them through faster (1 year) with equal or better opportunities.

He didn't mention if he had taken the MCAT and the required science core. I assumed he didn't and thus assumed he doesn't qualify for an SMP. Working with the data I have, the best option is to attend HES and get sponsorship.

HES is not the same as Harvard, and the extension programs don't have anywhere near the resources of the top postbacs.

I just got off the phone with William Fixsen and he mentioned that about 60% of the students of HES's premed are involved with some research being directed by Harvard University. HES are allowed to use Harvard facilities and can participate in Harvard student activities.

 

[drizzt3117]

He didn't mention if he had taken the MCAT and the required science core. I assumed he didn't and thus assumed he doesn't qualify for an SMP. Working with the data I have, the best option is to attend HES and get sponsorship.

Scripps, Goucher, and BM are all formal postbacs for those students who aren't science majors. The OP seems like he would qualify given that he's only taken physics. All three of these programs have far higher success rate than HES. 100% of students entering these programs in the last 5 years have been accepted into med school, most into top programs. The OP seems to have the credentials to apply to these very competitive programs.

I just got off the phone with William Fixsen and he mentioned that about 60% of the students of HES's premed are involved with some research being directed by Harvard University. HES are allowed to use Harvard facilities and can participate in Harvard student activities.

Do you know how many undergrads do research at "Harvard facilities"? Thousands. It's nice but won't set you apart from other premeds. You don't take classes with Harvard students, and not even all of your classes are taught by their faculty. HES is definitely a good postbac program but it's not in the top tier.

 

[doctorhoskinson]

Scripps, Goucher, and BM are all formal postbacs for those students who aren't science majors. The OP seems like he would qualify given that he's only taken physics. All three of these programs have far higher success rate than HES. 100% of students entering these programs in the last 5 years have been accepted into med school, most into top programs. The OP seems to have the credentials to apply to these very competitive programs.

I can't argue with data, but how much does it cost to attend Scripps, Groucher, and BM compared to HES?

Do you know how many undergrads do research at "Harvard facilities"? Thousands. It's nice but won't set you apart from other premeds. You don't take classes with Harvard students, and not even all of your classes are taught by their faculty. HES is definitely a good postbac program but it's not in the top tier.

You are correct that you take classes at HES instead of the main campus. As for research, it is what you make of it and who you know. There are many who have gone to very prestigious schools only to spend a year washing test tubes while others who have done some impressive things at state schools. I like the Harvard environment and if you are a likable and smart guy, then you will find something interesting to research. The main advantage is that you have your days free to get a job or get some clinical experience.

Ultimately it is up to Lakefog where he wants to go and what experiences he will have. There isn't much difference between an 85% acceptance rate and a 100% if you are going to be in the top ten percent of either program. With his GPA, I suspect he will be. I would recommend sending some emails to various program directors and spending some time touring each campus.

 

[drizzt3117]

There are major advantages to being in established, formal programs. Adcoms, especially in their geographic areas, know a lot about the programs, who do a great deal of selection for med schools. While HES is nearly open admissions, the three top formal programs have matriculant means in the 3.6+ ranges. Also, the top formal programs offer linkage programs to top schools that allow you to skip the glide year, including UPenn, Pittsburgh, and UChicago. Finally, these programs give you amazing access to volunteering, shadowing, and research that are typically available only to med students. While they tend to be more expensive than HES, the results speak for themselves.

Btw, at the 22 med schools I interviewed at, about half the interviewers mentioned my postbac (Scripps) and talked about the quality students that have come from there.

 

[LizzyM]

I agree that formal post-bac programs, while expensive, are cost-effective in getting excellent students through the pre-reqs efficiently and also directing them to pre-arranged opportunities for clinical volunteer work and research. And those post-bac advisors really know how to write an informative LOR.

While clinical work experience and evening classes are nice for a glide year, particularly if someone is coming from an environment that had few opportunities for research and/or clinical exposure, it is not an ideal way to do a post-bac.

 

[doctorhoskinson]

I agree that formal post-bac programs, while expensive, are cost-effective in getting excellent students through the pre-reqs efficiently and also directing them to pre-arranged opportunities for clinical volunteer work and research. And those post-bac advisors really know how to write an informative LOR.

While clinical work experience and evening classes are nice for a glide year, particularly if someone is coming from an environment that had few opportunities for research and/or clinical exposure, it is not an ideal way to do a post-bac.

I agree entirely. However, it is ultimately up to the candidate what results the program yields. If you are scoring consistently in the top ten percent and are fairly outgoing, then go somewhere nice, but inexpensive. It's wonderful to get linkage, yet you don't need such a guarantee if you have a 3.8 GPA and a 33 MCAT with good clinical experience particularly with the expansion of seats over the next five years.

I firmly believe why some of the top post bacs are so successful at getting candidates into medical school is frankly because they cherry pick people who with just a little push are already competitive. If a medical school only admitted people with 40 on the MCAT, then their students probably will have great USMLE scores.

 

[drizzt3117]

I agree entirely. However, it is ultimately up to the candidate what results the program yields. If you are scoring consistently in the top ten percent and are fairly outgoing, then go somewhere nice, but inexpensive. It's wonderful to get linkage, yet you don't need such a guarantee if you have a 3.8 GPA and a 33 MCAT with good clinical experience particularly with the expansion of seats over the next five years.

Just because you have a 3.8 GPA doesn't mean you're going to do well in postbac. The top formal programs are focused on career changers, I.e. Non-science majors with strong qualifications. They are especially focused on students who haven't taken the majority of their prereqs. There's no guarantee that they'll do well in their science classes anywhere. That said, the top formal programs set up their students for success with small class sizes, lots of tutoring, professors who are easily accessible day/night (unlike HES), lots of volunteer and research positions many of which are passed from class to class, great advising, and committee letters written by people intimately familiar with the students. You won't get that at an a la carte program like HES.

I firmly believe why some of the top post bacs are so successful at getting candidates into medical school is frankly because they cherry pick people who with just a little push are already competitive. If a medical school only admitted people with 40 on the MCAT, then their students probably will have great USMLE scores.

First of all, the USMLE is a very different test than the MCAT, it's much more knowledge based and clinical, and while I'd like to pretend my 99+% MCAT gives me a better chance to do well on the boards, nothing will help you besides learning the material you are taught in med school and working your ass off. That said, the top programs are definitely focused on taking the best students, but that has value in and of itself as adcoms have a long track record to look at. This is much like undergrad reputation. If a school will take anyone with a 3.0, like HES, how much is that really worth, after all?

 

[doctorhoskinson]

Just because you have a 3.8 GPA doesn't mean you're going to do well in postbac. The top formal programs are focused on career changers, I.e. Non-science majors with strong qualifications. They are especially focused on students who haven't taken the majority of their prereqs. There's no guarantee that they'll do well in their science classes anywhere. That said, the top formal programs set up their students for success with small class sizes, lots of tutoring, professors who are easily accessible day/night (unlike HES), lots of volunteer and research positions many of which are passed from class to class, great advising, and committee letters written by people intimately familiar with the students. You won't get that at an a la carte program like HES.

Yes there are better programs than HES. What makes the difference between an average post-bac and a great post-bac are certainly the things you mentioned. My point is that he doesn't need a great post-bac to be a competitive candidate. It is really about economics and family.

First of all, the USMLE is a very different test than the MCAT, it's much more knowledge based and clinical, and while I'd like to pretend my 99+% MCAT gives me a better chance to do well on the boards, nothing will help you besides learning the material you are taught in med school and working your ass off. That said, the top programs are definitely focused on taking the best students, but that has value in and of itself as adcoms have a long track record to look at. This is much like undergrad reputation. If a school will take anyone with a 3.0, like HES, how much is that really worth, after all?

When I worked with Ross for a few years, the big focus was on the USMLE step 1. The general matching trend for IMG isn't very good- particularly out of the Carib (I think around 45%). Therefore, the focus was on good USMLE scores. We always, always, always found a correlation between those who scored well on the MCATs and those who took the USMLE step 1 regardless of the institution.

 

[drizzt3117]

Yes there are better programs than HES. What makes the difference between an average post-bac and a great post-bac are certainly the things you mentioned. My point is that he doesn't need a great post-bac to be a competitive candidate. It is really about economics and family.

If the OP linked, they could save one year. One year of a physician's salary is probably an order of magnitude greater than the cost difference, never mind that you can't complete the prereqs in one year at HES while all three of those programs are 12 month programs. Not attending a top formal with that profile is a mistake IMO.

When I worked with Ross for a few years, the big focus was on the USMLE step 1. The general matching trend for IMG isn't very good- particularly out of the Carib (I think around 45%). Therefore, the focus was on good USMLE scores. We always, always, always found a correlation between those who scored well on the MCATs and those who took the USMLE step 1 regardless of the institution.

1) look at the group you're sampling. Carib students are going to be students with significant academic weaknesses compared to us med students.

2) while there is a weak correlation between mcat and usmle, there's a stronger correlation between nbmes and usmle and many schools use nbme as an evaluative tool...

 

[doctorhoskinson]

If the OP linked, they could save one year. One year of a physician's salary is probably an order of magnitude greater than the cost difference, never mind that you can't complete the prereqs in one year at HES while all three of those programs are 12 month programs. Not attending a top formal with that profile is a mistake IMO.

Dear lord you are persistent, I'm not sure why you can't complete the preqs in one year. HES has a compressed semester option for the chems, which is fairly easy with general chemistry. I wouldn't recommend it with organic chem.

Sure top programs yield better results. If I mine gold gold, then I might just make more money than mining silver.

1) look at the group you're sampling. Carib students are going to be students with significant academic weaknesses compared to us med students.

2) while there is a weak correlation between mcat and usmle, there's a stronger correlation between nbmes and usmle and many schools use nbme as an evaluative tool...

Our samples included medical students from over 100 schools in the United States. Obviously the Ross folks ain't the sharpest knives in the drawer.

And how many non-medical students have taken NBME subject tests prior to entering medical school? The MCAT is the best shot of accessing a candidate prior to admission.

 

[drizzt3117]

Dear lord you are persistent, I'm not sure why you can't complete the preqs in one year. HES has a compressed semester option for the chems, which is fairly easy with general chemistry. I wouldn't recommend it with organic chem.

Sure top programs yield better results. If I mine gold gold, then I might just make more money than mining silver.

You can't complete the entire prereq sequence at HES in one year. It's just not possible with how the courses are offered. Stop giving bad info.

Our samples included medical students from over 100 schools in the United States. Obviously the Ross folks ain't the sharpest knives in the drawer.

And how many non-medical students have taken NBME subject tests prior to entering medical school? The MCAT is the best shot of accessing a candidate prior to admission.

My point was simply that the biggest determinant of board success is success in medical school, which nbmes are a proxy for. I think US med schools have a pretty good idea which students will have the most success.

 

[Allopathic13]

There are certainly valid points in both sides of this argument: Drizzt, I agree scripps, BM, and Goucher are def. in the top 3, but I would argue that Harvard is the #4/5 post bacc in the country, a fair assertion to be sure. Although, I do recognize that a notable step exists between the #3 and 4 schools.

I attend HES and I must say that the program is very strong. It has tremendous regional advantages for those of us looking to attend Yale/HMS/Dartmouth/Columbia because of the connections between the adcoms and the program directors. The directors, Dr. Fixsen and Owen Peterson are tremendous and will goto great strides to aid in the process. Further, and this is simply my personal experience, all my professors have been Harvard Instructors, two of which teach at HMS. I have developed close relationships with these instructors, relationships that will surely aid in my application's competitiveness.

Furthermore, there exists an intangible advantage of being at HES that is a little bit outside the realm of relevance. There is an intrinsic honor and confidence that one feels from being part of the Harvard tradition, a confidence that is necessary in medicine. There are times when I will goto the Harvard football game with my gear on or study in Harvard Yard, and these activities help me to release stress and do well in the program. Furthermore, the Diploma in Premedical Studies students are truly Harvard students. They have Harvard IDs and all the privileges that come with the IDs. Further, they can join the Harvard Alumni Association and local Harvard clubs to network for clinical internships.

HES is certainly not as strong as BM, scripps, or Goucher but it is a great program with superb educational quality and regional connections.


I hope this helps to clear up some of the haziness about the program.

 

[drizzt3117]

There are certainly valid points in both sides of this argument: Drizzt, I agree scripps, BM, and Goucher are def. in the top 3, but I would argue that Harvard is the #4/5 post bacc in the country, a fair assertion to be sure. Although, I do recognize that a notable step exists between the #3 and 4 schools.

I attend HES and I must say that the program is very strong. It has tremendous regional advantages for those of us looking to attend Yale/HMS/Dartmouth/Columbia because of the connections between the adcoms and the program directors. The directors, Dr. Fixsen and Owen Peterson are tremendous and will goto great strides to aid in the process. Further, and this is simply my personal experience, all my professors have been Harvard Instructors, two of which teach at HMS. I have developed close relationships with these instructors, relationships that will surely aid in my application's competitiveness.

Furthermore, there exists an intangible advantage of being at HES that is a little bit outside the realm of relevance. There is an intrinsic honor and confidence that one feels from being part of the Harvard tradition, a confidence that is necessary in medicine. There are times when I will goto the Harvard football game with my gear on or study in Harvard Yard, and these activities help me to release stress and do well in the program. Furthermore, the Diploma in Premedical Studies students are truly Harvard students. They have Harvard IDs and all the privileges that come with the IDs. Further, they can join the Harvard Alumni Association and local Harvard clubs to network for clinical internships.

HES is certainly not as strong as BM, scripps, or Goucher but it is a great program with superb educational quality and regional connections.


I hope this helps to clear up some of the haziness about the program.

I think HES is a good postbac program, I just don't think it's the right one for the person in question, who is in position to get into top tier east coast programs. To be honest, I actually think BM has stronger connections to the east coast Ivy League schools than HES, simply because of the pipeline they've sent there for many years. That said, I think HES is still one of the best postbacs, probably in the top 5, behind the top 3 and JHU which is a lot more selective...

 

[Allopathic13]

I believe you make a fair assessment. BM has sent numerous students to these schools and it's of course greatly respected among them.

🙂

 

[LizzyM]

What about Columbia? I've seen some very interesting non-trads apply after doing their pre-reqs there (usually along with clinical exposure at St. Lukes).

 

[drizzt3117]

What about Columbia? I've seen some very interesting non-trads apply after doing their pre-reqs there (usually along with clinical exposure at St. Lukes).

A lot of people don't have good things to say about the Columbia program. Apparently they don't offer particularly much support, the classes aren't organized too well and it's sometimes difficult for students to succeed, and the environment isn't particularly friendly. They also have pretty low standards for admission. I think a lot of people who are dead set on staying in NYC are choosing other postbac programs. I've heard the NYU program is better and even the Hunter program seems good.

 

[Allopathic13]

I agree. I have heard very mixed review about columbia...but I also have heard of a number of success stories as well...the exposure to St. Lukes i'm sure helps.

 

[LizzyM]

I have a feeling that the cream rises to the top and those are the applicants I see. The proportion that fall away without finishing the program and those who are directed away from applying to a top tier school might skew my perception.

 

[drizzt3117]

I have a feeling that the cream rises to the top and those are the applicants I see. The proportion that fall away without finishing the program and those who are directed away from applying to a top tier school might skew my perception.

Yeah, they have a very high attrition rate in their program. The people that finish are probably good candidates!

 

[Allopathic13]

Thats certainly the case...quite obviously anyone in the Big 3 is going to be a quality applicant....but when you start talking about HES, Columbia, Georgetown...I find that there is a greater disparity...at least at HES.


Lizzy, I have a question for you, and I am not sure as to what medical school you are part of, but I am looking at applying to the top tier schools, i.e. Harvard, Yale, UPenn, Pitt...I have a 3.6 and received a 36 on my MCAT...I also have about 200 clinical shadowing hours...in your experiences does that profile fit a student that is competitive for the top programs...or is my GPA too low? Also, I will be finishing up the Harvard DPM program next year. I suppose I may be able to raise my MCAT by a few points if need be. Thanks!

 

[DrMidlife]

Lizzy

She's gone back to pre-allo, now that the postbac forum's honor has been avenged. Try her there or on PM.

 

[LakeFog]

Wow, thanks for all the information.

I do think I would much prefer the supportive atmosphere that Bryn Mawr and Goucher provide.

I've looked at Columbia, but I have heard iffy things about it as well.

Also, I'm a she.

 

[drizzt3117]

Thats certainly the case...quite obviously anyone in the Big 3 is going to be a quality applicant....but when you start talking about HES, Columbia, Georgetown...I find that there is a greater disparity...at least at HES.

Lizzy, I have a question for you, and I am not sure as to what medical school you are part of, but I am looking at applying to the top tier schools, i.e. Harvard, Yale, UPenn, Pitt...I have a 3.6 and received a 36 on my MCAT...I also have about 200 clinical shadowing hours...in your experiences does that profile fit a student that is competitive for the top programs...or is my GPA too low? Also, I will be finishing up the Harvard DPM program next year. I suppose I may be able to raise my MCAT by a few points if need be. Thanks!

You don't want to retake a 36 unless you have a incredibly unbalanced score (like 15 15 6). The chances of going down are higher than the chances of improvement and any improvement you might make will be marginal at best.

With that type of profile you should get some attention from top tier schools but most of the evaluation at that point is qualitative. I applied last cycle with ~3.65 cGPA, 4.0 BCPM, 39S MCAT and did quite well with top tier schools FWIW.

 

[drizzt3117]

Wow, thanks for all the information.

I do think I would much prefer the supportive atmosphere that Bryn Mawr and Goucher provide.

I've looked at Columbia, but I have heard iffy things about it as well.

Also, I'm a she.

If you aren't completely set on the East Coast, you should look at Scripps as well. Compared to the other top postbacs it's a smaller program in terms of student body size, but is extremely successful at matching students into top programs nationally, especially on the West Coast.

 

[Allopathic13]

drzzt

thanks for the info...I will def. heed your advice.