How many surgeries do you do in vet school?

[Cornish]

I was wondering what kind of surgeries you guys learn how to do in vet school (I know every school is different, however). For example, by the time you graduate how many spays/neuters will you have done? What other kinds of stuff do you learn and how many times do you practice them?

Thanks!

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[hislightrq]

That is actually a question I get quite often from prospective students. I'm currently a final year at the University of Glasgow and the system is a bit different over here. We only do a few spays/neuters during our final year rotations, but we have to complete 26 weeks of externships during our last two years and we gain most of our hands-on experience then. The vets and vet schools here work together to give us a complete education and it seem to work quite well. I've done quite a few spays and neuters over the past two years (maybe 10-20), but of course it never seems like enough practice with graduation looming.

 

[piratevet]

in school 0 (zero) or less 🙁. If you want to learn anything here, you must find some good veterinarian to show you or even allow you to do it. For instance last week I have done a omentopection (omentopexia) in cow with DAS. It was my 2nd time. I done at least 100 castration on piglets and a few hogs but only twice on dogs. female castration (spay) I have performed only once on cat and twice on sow.
Sorrow...🙁

I hope you understanding me ...

 

[alliecat44]

At KSU, our only standard surgeries are one spay and one neuter. Scary, huh? The best way to gain surgical experience (from what I've heard) is to do an externship at a Humane Society--you'll do like 40 spays a week. I think that's probably what I'm going to do--even though I have no desire to be a surgeon, I know that surgery is going to make me nervous, and I definitely want to be as confident as posible. 🙂

FYI, this seems pretty typical across vet schools. And FWIW, when I asked a board-certified surgeon friend of mine if this was unusual, he said, "god, no--one spay and one neuter is all *I* got to do in vet school!" And he's an amazingly talented surgeon.

 

[fetch]

Surgical speed and confidence is not just about numbers, it is about aquiring the correct skills set and the time it takes to develop them. If you have poor suturing technique, for example, it doesn't matter if you're doing 20 spays a day because you are doing them wrong.

It has become accepted that veterinarians graduate with a lot of book knowledge but little practical experience. To some degree, more proactive students will find more surgical opportunities. However, I've never heard of a new graduate saying the reason someone wouldn't hire them is because "because they'd only spayed one dog and one cat before graduation". If they did, chances are good it was because you pursued a job announcement you really aren't qualified to apply to begin with. Yet. Or you were interviewing with a practice you that'll suck your soul and love of the profession out through your sockets and spit out a burnt out husk of a veterinarian after 6-12 months. You didn't want to work there anyways. Trust me.

Since you asked specifically about spay/neuter, I spayed a dog in junior surgery and did 5 or 6 juvenile spays/neuters while on the community services rotation during clinics. I did quite a bit more ag animal work but I also had good professors who didn't let the interns/residents do everything, ample opportunity (time) on rotation/externs/perceptors and the desire to seek out and do those procedures.

After 6 or 7 months of being on surgery every other week in my first job I could neuter a cat in under 3 minutes, small/juvenile dog in about 15 / large dog in about 25, spay a cat in about 20 minutes, small/juvenile dog in about 35 and large dog in about an hour. I haven't really improved since then and am perfectly happy with those times. Surgery isn't a race and spay/neuters are not "simple routine surgeries". Anyone who tells you differently is lying or trying to sell you something.

Truth be told, learning how to treat bite wounds and other traumatic injuries to skin/soft tissue, unblock and treat a cat, manage that pruritic allergy/derm/ear dog, run and review a good centrifugal fecal and skin scrape, have a plan for treating vaccine/allergic reactions, how to confront and deal with abuse/neglect cases, treat a corneal ulcer, do a good orthopedic lameness work up, how to handle a human bite case and manage a diabetic would serve you further as far as comfort and competence when you first start working than than worrying how many spays you've done.

 

[Kara31191]

My boss was telling me she thought she wouldn't make a great vet when she graduated. Did everyone here feel "confident" that you knew a lot when you graduated? Did you gain most of the necessary skills in school or your first working year?

Just wondering. Thank you!
-Kara

 

[birdvet2006]

Fetch, you have wonderful advice. I'm only on my 2nd year out and still struggle with large dog spays. I haven't done spays/neuters in large volume, and it's still scary for me. But outside of the surgical arena, I feel I am doing OK - and am VERY thankful for that internship I did last year (small animal medicine/surgery).

Right now, I LOVE castrating anything (I'll be doing 3 rabbits next week). I enjoy spaying cats and small dogs. Spaying large dogs...or even medium ones...not fun but certainly do-able!

Lacerations, abscesses, mass removals --> very happy to do these. I'm making progress with dental extractions too (and we have dental radiography available).

 

[fetch]

Kara -
Knowing a lot doesn't mean it has to all be up in your noodle. It also can mean you have acquired, have access, and know how to use books and mentors (from undergrad/vet school/former and current employers).
I can't speak for anyone here but me - I never feel like I know what I'm doing. It wouldn't be as fun sometimes if I did. The only thing I'm confident about is I know where to look/who to call to help me unravel the diagnostic knot and get to the chewy nougat center of a diagnosis or treatment. Bear in mind it is 100% YMMV; you may be that star gunner with the photographic mind who doesn't so much learn information as simple absorb it through your pores and is triple boarded with a PhD by the time you're 33. *shrug* It takes all types to make this crazy profession spin round.

The technical skills I learned in veterinary school were how to be a finest damn veterinary technician I could be. Seriously. I think they do it so if you don't graduate you have a job to fall back on.... 😉 Learn the principles taught, apply them over time until you are comfortable with them and you'll be fine; it's why we call it "practicing".

bird -
Oh quit - you'll make me blush. I was trialed by fire when it came to large dog spays and too stupid to be scared of them; more an irritation because I knew they were going to take me a loooonnnngggg time (when I first started doing them, 2-3 hours depending on how much hid/tore/dropped/bled without any back available). Instrumentation you're comfortable with and is the right size for the job goes a long way. Proper suture/ligature selection and size as well. Developing a realistic clamp technique, too. For those truly horrific, friable ones I always have one transfixing and encircling ligature on the pedicle before I crush anything for the middle t&e lig and then do one more t&e distal on the pedicle to that one so I can sleep at night.

I could do cat neuters and spays all day. Big ones, little ones, in heat ones or pregnant - doesn't matter! If I was allergic to them, I think I'd be a pig in poop to be a surgeon at a cat-only clinic.

I don't think any likes the large older dog spays; if they do, they are a special brand of crazy and deserve every referral you can send them.

Tony Woodward in Colorado Springs has a really good dentistry CE course. You should check it out. I don't know why I haven't seen him over on/disscussed on VIN; I really like his practice philosophies and his training was sound and very easy to understand.

Rabbits? See, there's one that would make me nervous!

 

[Electrophile]

Rabbits? Pssh...try doing an ovariectomy or a castration on an inch long day old mouse pup just using watchmaker's forceps, liquid bandage, and a wee bit of isoflo in small jar to knock them down...and having it live! That SUCKED! I tried to do it for a research project in grad school and I was successful a few times to where the mouse made it out to adulthood okay, but not enough to do a full study on it. But it can be done! It was pretty cool having some of the ACUC vets watch my faculty adviser do it. Everyone's jaw was pretty much on the floor! 😀

 

[fetch]

Jeezy Creezy.

What's that old adage? Oh yeah. Just because it can be done, doesn't mean it should be done.

If you're performing recoverable surgeries and are amazed they recover, you're doing something wrong.

Listen. I know full well how I "sound" and remain unapologetic. I cut my pre-veterinary teeth in research.

What, exactly, was the value of this research project that failed to produce useable results or data? How, exactly, did you adhere to that cornerstone of veterinary ethics you've claimed as your signature?

http://www.iacuc.org

 

[Electrophile]

If you cut your pre-vet teeth on animal research, you probably realize that to learn a new technique, you have to practice on a fair number of animals. I was amazed they recovered because it's technically difficult. My faculty adviser could do it and he had done it back in the early 90s for various projects. I was learning it on to collect oocytes from the first phase of meiosis. My earlier project looked at oocytes collected from adult females that were ovulated already (arrested at metaphase II). The purpose was to dose pregnant females with an endocrine disrupting chemical, take out an ovary on postnatal day 1, and analyze the oocytes for chromosomal damage. Then we would leave the other in, raise the pup up to adulthood, and collect it when she was old enough. We knew this chemical was causing chromosomal abnormalities somewhere along the line, we just wanted to find out when. If it would have worked (which it didn't cause I was never as good as my adviser at it...I gave up as I had a good number die and was tired of it), we would have had to use half as many animals. Instead of having two groups (one group killed at birth and the other killed at adulthood), we would have only needed one group. Thereby minimizing the numbers of animals we needed to produce for the study. Make sense?

 

[Hollycozza]

I only got HALF a spay, HALF a neuter and HALF a dental in three months at the uni clinic! Yep, one testicle and one ovary, both cats! But I still have 6 months of external placements so I am HOPING that I will get lots of chances to do more 😀

At KSU, our only standard surgeries are one spay and one neuter. Scary, huh? The best way to gain surgical experience (from what I've heard) is to do an externship at a Humane Society--you'll do like 40 spays a week. I think that's probably what I'm going to do--even though I have no desire to be a surgeon, I know that surgery is going to make me nervous, and I definitely want to be as confident as posible. 🙂

FYI, this seems pretty typical across vet schools. And FWIW, when I asked a board-certified surgeon friend of mine if this was unusual, he said, "god, no--one spay and one neuter is all *I* got to do in vet school!" And he's an amazingly talented surgeon.

 

[GoldensForever]

Some of it depends on your interest level and being in the right place at the right time. At IL, we get ~2 spays and 2 neuters in junior surgery, and 1-3 spays or neuters in senior surgery depending on how busy the service is and how much initiative you take in organizing your own surgery times. My humane society rotation in 3 weeks will give me ~40-60 spay/neuter opportunities. I volunteered for a spay/neuter feral cat operation and did maybe 7 cat spays and a ton of castrations through them. I've placed external fixators on 2 raptors, done a lot of surgical wound debridement on wild animals, amputated a pig's dewclaw and goose's toe, castrated a cryptorchid horse, and performed an eyelid surgery on a dog. I think that's all so far!