How much are you making right out of school?

[daysinnnc]

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How much money are you making right out off opt school?

I know this question has been asked a million times but i am just researching..

I would really appreciate y'all comments

 

[eyestrain]

There is really no good answer for this. Everyone's situation is different and incomes will be all over the map.

 

[qwopty99]

can range as low as 65K in urban centers and as high as 150 in rural areas.

if i had to "ballpark" ranges, then urban centers 65-90K, rural areas 80-150.

flame away.

 

[KHE]

can range as low as 65K in urban centers and as high as 150 in rural areas.

if i had to "ballpark" ranges, then urban centers 65-90K, rural areas 80-150.

flame away.

What are you basing this on?

Seriously....so many students offer up projections of income, but they seem to be based on little more than an only slightly educated guess, and a rumor that a friend of a friend's cousin was an OD who makes X, Y, or Z dollars.

People should NOT respond to questions like this without providing a source for their posting.

 

[qwopty99]

What are you basing this on?

Seriously....so many students offer up projections of income, but they seem to be based on little more than an only slightly educated guess, and a rumor that a friend of a friend's cousin was an OD who makes X, Y, or Z dollars.

People should NOT respond to questions like this without providing a source for their posting.

Basing on what I thought people (classmates) were earning after graduation.

I didn't suggest my numbers were fact. I presented them as my impression.

I'm allowed to do this, am I not?



I at least tried to answer the question, as imperfect as it may be. Why don't you try rather than just criticize my post. My sense is the OP just wants a general idea, and probably doesn't require an answer to six decimal places.



BTW - I'm not a student.

 

[Jay12]

$1,000,000

 

[stonegoat]

If you come and work for me, I gaurantee $100,000/year....but I expect you will make $120K ++. Of course I'm in Canada....somewhat different....less saturated.

 

[armstrong77]

What are you basing this on?

Seriously....so many students offer up projections of income, but they seem to be based on little more than an only slightly educated guess, and a rumor that a friend of a friend's cousin was an OD who makes X, Y, or Z dollars.

People should NOT respond to questions like this without providing a source for their posting.

I don't think that's necessarily true.

If I see some unverified statement on an internet forum, then I'll treat it as that, as something unverified.

Sure it's useful to source everything to ensure everything is factual, but in the same way that one can provide sourced (refereed) information, one can also provide unsourced and unrefereed information. That which is unrefereed is taken as such. With a grain of salt.

I don't think anyone can expect that all that is written on these forums is peer-reviewed. And with that knowledge, no one will treat all that is written here as peer-reviewed.


As such, if I see someone chime in on the matter with what is obviously his opinion, then I'll treat it as such. Like the 2nd poster said, this is an incredibly difficult question to answer (and may not have an all-encompassing, all-representative peer-reviewed answer, if that's what you're looking for), so the next best thing would be for people to take educated guesses.

 

[gochi]

If you come and work for me, I gaurantee $100,000/year....but I expect you will make $120K ++. Of course I'm in Canada....somewhat different....less saturated.

Though Canada might seem as a more lucrative option to practice in relative to USA, it simply is not.

If you earn >120k expect to have it reduced by 39% at the MINIMUM, after federal and provincial taxes.


Stonegoat expects a Canadian to make $120k+++. I agree with that. Let's assume its $150,000. After taxes your enormous 150k salary is minimized to a measly $85,000. Now if you were to gross 150k in america, after all taxes, you could expect to net 100k.

Stonegoat, why not practice in USA ? I assume once you find the right location the american salary will significantly exceed the canadian salary after taxes.

 

[IcanSEEanOD]

.

 

[gochi]

Don't the taxes that you pay go towards your healthcare in canada? that makes a big difference if you subtract how much you pay for healthcare in the us from your salary.

I'm not entirely sure about that. I'd rather not have universal healthcare if my salary is significantly decreased, heck I wouldn't take it even if my salary was slightly decreased. Seriously though, I cannot remember the last time I went to the doctor or any other healthcare service provider.

 

[CanadaODhopeful]

In Canada your taxes pay for many things, one of which is health care (but lots of people supplement the government healthcare with health care packages from private companies). But as has been mentioned here before, depending on the province you live in, the overall tax rate is different.
When looking at where to work (USA vs. Canada), there may be a difference in your take home income. If you are only looking at how much you can make then Canada may not be the place for you. I think people are attracted to work in certain places of Canada for reasons that don't always have to do with income.

 

[EyeDocPlus]

It definitely depends on your situation! I was an associate in a practice right after graduation. I was guaranteed a salary of $55,000 plus a bonus of 10% of the gross over $300k. I was paid this because I was starting on a track to buy into the practice. I had to get in there and pay my dues first. My second year I was given a salary of $67,000 and 10% of gross over $500k. I didn't make my bonus either year because I was building a practice within a practice. Sometimes you have to take your lumps if you expect to buy into a first rate practice. I actually left the practice after my second year. I would have made $86k in my third year. Instead, I bought a practice, worked my tail off, and cleared better than that as a solo doc.

If you want to know what you can make when you graduate, you should be very specific as to the type of practice setting. There are so many variables that can drastically change your income. If you are buying into a practice, you have to take into account the equity you are building. If you are a paid employee, then you are just making a paycheck until the senior doc works a deal for you to start buying in. Commercial optometry, educational optometry, VA federal optometry, etc... all may vary to a great degree.

 

[KHE]

Basing on what I thought people (classmates) were earning after graduation.

I at least tried to answer the question, as imperfect as it may be. Why don't you try rather than just criticize my post. My sense is the OP just wants a general idea, and probably doesn't require an answer to six decimal places.



BTW - I'm not a student.

I'm not going to try, because that question requires an answer that is based on more than rumor, conjecture, or what you think your friends made or are making.

There are just far too many factors that go into it to even hazard a guess and they go far beyond urban vs. suburban. If you're not a student, then you should know that as well as anybody.

The second poster is correct...there is no good answer. Every situation is different, and every area is different.

 

[KHE]

It definitely depends on your situation! I was an associate in a practice right after graduation. I was guaranteed a salary of $55,000 plus a bonus of 10% of the gross over $300k. I was paid this because I was starting on a track to buy into the practice. I had to get in there and pay my dues first. My second year I was given a salary of $67,000 and 10% of gross over $500k. I didn't make my bonus either year because I was building a practice within a practice. Sometimes you have to take your lumps if you expect to buy into a first rate practice. I actually left the practice after my second year. I would have made $86k in my third year. Instead, I bought a practice, worked my tail off, and cleared better than that as a solo doc.

Why did you leave the practice and not buy into it?

What is your definition of "taking lumps?"

When did you graduate, and where were you practicing? Were you working full or part time?

 

[EyeDocPlus]

Why did you leave the practice and not buy into it?

There were a variety of personal and professional differences between me and the owner.

What is your definition of "taking lumps?"

Working for less than what you think you are worth in order to work your way into a practice. I didn't mind working for a lower starting salary because I knew that in the long run I would more than make up for it after I made partner. My initial contract stated that I would work as a salaried associate for 2-3 years, depending on the growth of the practice, before starting the buy-in process. Private practice docs work extremely hard to get to the level where they can take on an associate. I didn't fully realize how hard until I bought my own practice from a retiring OD. New associates should be prepared to work just as hard or harder to grow the practice to a level that will sustain 2 docs. Every partnership case is a little different though. Some are created because the current doc wants to work less and less until retirement. The new doctor can expect to see his side of the practice grow as well as his income as the "old" docs sees less and less patients. My situation was different though. The owner and I wanted to grow the practice to the level where it would support 2 full-time OD's or more. He wasn't planning on retiring for another 15 years.

When did you graduate, and where were you practicing? Were you working full or part time?

I graduated in 2003. I was working in a metropolitan practice in a mid-atlantic state. I was working 45-55 hours a week. I have no regrets about the way things turned out. The doc I was working for is very successful and I learned a ton of practice management lessons that have helped me grow my own practice over the last few years.

 

[eyestrain]

$1,000,000

Hey, me too! All on two half days, no less.

 

[KHE]

There were a variety of personal and professional differences between me and the owner.

Working for less than what you think you are worth in order to work your way into a practice. I didn't mind working for a lower starting salary because I knew that in the long run I would more than make up for it after I made partner.

But you never did.

My initial contract stated that I would work as a salaried associate for 2-3 years, depending on the growth of the practice, before starting the buy-in process. My situation was different though. The owner and I wanted to grow the practice to the level where it would support 2 full-time OD's or more. He wasn't planning on retiring for another 15 years.

But you never grew the practice to that level.

I graduated in 2003. I was working in a metropolitan practice in a mid-atlantic state. I was working 45-55 hours a week. I have no regrets about the way things turned out. The doc I was working for is very successful and I learned a ton of practice management lessons that have helped me grow my own practice over the last few years.

Something is wrong here....you said you never made your production numbers to trigger the bonus, yet you were working 45-55 hours per week? Any doctor working that much should be able to EASILY generate $300k worth of billings. If you weren't able to, then I would imagine that the practice you were trying to buy into was never close to needing an associate, much less a partner.

I'm getting the feeling that there is something missing from the story.

For the benefit of the students on here, could you eleaborate a bit on what personal or professional issues derailed your potential partnership?

Also, in your second year, your compensation structure actually went DOWN. If you were to be paid 10% of anything over 300k on top of a base of $55000, then if you hypothetically generated $500k worth of billings in your first year, you would have been paid $75000.

But in your second year, if you generated $500k worth of billings, your salary would have been $67000. That seems odd that your salary would actually go down.

Also...your compensation in the first scenario is only 15% of your billings. I can't speak for other doctors on here, but I pay my associates far more than that.

 

[EyeDocPlus]

Something is wrong here....you said you never made your production numbers to trigger the bonus, yet you were working 45-55 hours per week? Any doctor working that much should be able to EASILY generate $300k worth of billings. If you weren't able to, then I would imagine that the practice you were trying to buy into was never close to needing an associate, much less a partner.

I was working that much, but I wasn't seeing patients that much. That's why my gross did not exceed the goals. Like I said, the other doc continued to see his full schedule. I was basically starting out cold and sharing office space/equipment. I would catch the overflow patients and sometimes would get the full schedule when the other doc was out of town. Patients that called to schedule were given the option to wait 4 weeks to see the owner or could get in the next day with "the new guy." I shared all of the office staff except the technicians. I only used one tech out of 4 on any given day. Some days I would do 2 complete exams and some days I would do 8. The rest of my time was spent on practice management. I was constantly coming up with new ways to drive patients to the door. I was managing the optical. I helped keep the physical plant updated and in good working order. I was working on risk/liability management.[/quote]

I'm getting the feeling that there is something missing from the story.

For the benefit of the students on here, could you eleaborate a bit on what personal or professional issues derailed your potential partnership?

I don't feel comfortable elaborating any further on the issues that prevented further associateship or partnership. Based on what has been discussed so far, you can use your imagination.

Also, in your second year, your compensation structure actually went DOWN. If you were to be paid 10% of anything over 300k on top of a base of $55000, then if you hypothetically generated $500k worth of billings in your first year, you would have been paid $75000.

But in your second year, if you generated $500k worth of billings, your salary would have been $67000. That seems odd that your salary would actually go down.

Well, it may have been a good deal of optimism on the owner's part to speculate that I would exceed 500k in my second year. One could also speculate the the goals were designed not to be attained. I personally did not take them into consideration when deciding whether to take the job or not. I felt like the opportunity to get into a practice of that caliber was worth far more than a bonus in the first couple of years.

Also...your compensation in the first scenario is only 15% of your billings. I can't speak for other doctors on here, but I pay my associates far more than that.

That's great for them. Congratulations. I appreciate the way you keep chipping away at my salary arrangement. I posted to show the students that there are salary ranges all across the board. I happened to be on the low end, but was willing to take a reduced salary in order to get my foot in the door.

I'm not sure if I should take your "But you never did." comments as snide remarks or not, but that is what they seem like. Not knowing you, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt. You are right, I never reached either of the specified points in my first two years and some people make think that was a waste of time and potential income. I don't think that way. I see my two years there as an opportunity to pick up lots of new practice management skills, ocular disease experience, surgery co-management experience, optical troubleshooting experience, etc... I carried all of that experience with me into my private practice and it made me a much more confident practitioner.

Here's my tips for the optometry students:
- Carefully evaluate any practice opportunities and be as objective as possible.
- Don't sell yourself on just one idea from the beginning. Keep your options open. Don't settle because you think nothing better will come along.
- Make good use of your school's doctor placement service. They may be able to pair you up with an alumnus who is well know by the school for being reputable, successful, etc...
- If it is permissible by your school, do an extern rotation at a site that you are considering for employment/partnership.
- Find a mentor that you can bounce practice opportunities off of.
- Don't be afraid to call it quits and start over. If the practice/doctor is not a good fit for you and you have given it a year or two, then consider a different opportunity.
- Have an attorney look over any contracts before signing them to make sure that you understand all of the legal jargon.
- Start looking for opportunities as soon as possible in your school career. That will allow you the time to get to know your future boss/partner on a personal and professional level. Go out to dinner with them and their spouse. A partnership is like a marriage except you end up spending more time with your partner than you do your spouse. You better make sure that you get along.
- Make sure that you have similar goals and ideals as the other doc(s) in the practice.
- Be very clear about your personal rankings of life importance (i.e. Family before practice before golfing or practice above all else...whatever)
- Make a list of things you are very good at and share them with the doc during the interview. Be tactful so you don't look like a braggart. That list is what you bring to the table as a new doctor. Your strong points may be the other doc's weak points. You may be really good at fitting RGP k-cone lenses and that may be something the owner can't or doesn't like to do.
- When it comes time to discuss salary, have a cost-of-living table ready to help you negotiate. The COL table will list things like rent, car, insurance, school loans, food, child support, etc... Make sure your salary will cover your COL plus allow you some spending money and savings. IF you really love the practice and IF it is a genuinely great opportunity, don't let salary be a sticking point. You will have plenty of time to make more money. BUT, don't be afraid to walk away from the table if it is a bad deal or you feel like the owner if using you as cheap labor.
- Sleep on any deal and seek counsel before signing. Avoid the impulse agreement.
- Talk to your practice management professor at your school about any deals.
- Make sure any contract you sign specifies your vacation days, sick time, professional education days and your expected hours of practice.
- Make sure the contract is clear about travel, insurance, licensing, CE, and equipment reimbursement.

I'm sure more will come to me later. Feel free to PM me any questions you may have.

 

[Jay12]

Great info EyeDocPlus 👍...thanks

 

[hextor2040]

EyeDocPlus.... that was great advice, thank you! and thanks for not being so damn negative about everything like some of these other know-it-all doctors.

 

[KHE]

I was working that much, but I wasn't seeing patients that much. That's why my gross did not exceed the goals. Like I said, the other doc continued to see his full schedule. I was basically starting out cold and sharing office space/equipment. I would catch the overflow patients and sometimes would get the full schedule when the other doc was out of town. Patients that called to schedule were given the option to wait 4 weeks to see the owner or could get in the next day with "the new guy." I shared all of the office staff except the technicians. I only used one tech out of 4 on any given day. Some days I would do 2 complete exams and some days I would do 8. The rest of my time was spent on practice management. I was constantly coming up with new ways to drive patients to the door. I was managing the optical. I helped keep the physical plant updated and in good working order. I was working on risk/liability management.

I don't feel comfortable elaborating any further on the issues that prevented further associateship or partnership. Based on what has been discussed so far, you can use your imagination.

Well, I'm glad you think it was a positive experience, but personally I think you got hosed. I wasn't trying to pick on your salary. I was simply trying to point out to the students on here that the way your deal was structured, you would actually make LESS money by doing better in your second and third year. I don't know what the terms of your buy in were, but unless you had a rock solid contract to buy in, you run the risk of getting strung along further and further. Also, the duties that you took on were worth substantially more than you were compensated for. If you had ultimately made partner, then perhaps it would have been OK but I would gladly extend an open job offer to any student out there to come work in my practice and "constantly coming up with new ways to drive patients to the door. I was managing the optical. I helped keep the physical plant updated and in good working order. I was working on risk/liability management." If anyone out there wants to take that job for $55000 per year, then it's theirs.

Well, it may have been a good deal of optimism on the owner's part to speculate that I would exceed 500k in my second year. One could also speculate the the goals were designed not to be attained. I personally did not take them into consideration when deciding whether to take the job or not. I felt like the opportunity to get into a practice of that caliber was worth far more than a bonus in the first couple of years.

The value of getting into a practice of that calibre for that low a salary is the potential to make partner. If the older doctor sets it up in such as way as to make it virtually unattainable, then that's a real problem. I've played that game many times myself.

I'm not sure if I should take your "But you never did." comments as snide remarks or not, but that is what they seem like. Not knowing you, I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt. You are right, I never reached either of the specified points in my first two years and some people make think that was a waste of time and potential income. I don't think that way. I see my two years there as an opportunity to pick up lots of new practice management skills, ocular disease experience, surgery co-management experience, optical troubleshooting experience, etc... I carried all of that experience with me into my private practice and it made me a much more confident practitioner.

I'm not picking on you. I get the impression that you made the same mistake that many young doctors make. I certainly made it myself. You took on a substantial role at what seemed like a great practice for a greatly reduced rate under the guise of "paying dues" with the carrot of partnership dangled in front of you only to leave after a couple of years of putting your hard efforts into the office. It's unfortunate that you have elected to not share at least some of the reasons for the partnership to have failed, or never materialize because it is THAT discussion that I think would ultimately be of the most benefit to students on here. Your other postings on here suggest that you have applied to medical school and are seeking a career in ophthalmology. Is there a reason you are abandoning your private practice?

 

[Shasta03]

I agree with hextor and Jay. Thanks to Eyedocplus for keeping things positive, focusing on the topic (helping us!), and not letting this become another one of those "fighting threads." We greatly appreciate your advice! And really, we DON'T need to know the personal reasons you left a practice. Thanks for realizing that!

 

[eyestrain]

EyeDocPlus.... that was great advice, thank you! and thanks for not being so damn negative about everything like some of these other know-it-all doctors.

Classic. A PRE-OPTOMETRY student calling the doctors "know-it-alls". You'll get far with that kind of thinking.

 

[KHE]

And really, we DON'T need to know the personal reasons you left a practice. Thanks for realizing that!

Really, what you should be doing is trying to find out as MANY of those stories as possible so that you can avoid those same mistakes and problems when you ultimately find yourself in that same situation.

Learn from the experience of others, even if those experiences are bad.

 

[EyeDocPlus]

If people want to know the specific problems that came up between me and the owner/optometrist, they can PM me. I will not be airing my laundry on a public forum. That would not speak well for me or the other doc involved.

 

[daysinnnc]

no one is answering the question...

 

[eyestrain]

no one is answering the question...

The answer is that it's a dumb question with no good answer. Someone already gave you a range, which is about the best you can do. I'd probably widen it a little to be anywhere from $0 to $200,000 or so your first year.

 

[daysinnnc]

i would kill myself i make $0.00

 

[eyestrain]

i would kill myself i make $0.00

Then don't start a practice, because there would be one less daysinnnc in the world.

 

[minipenguin]

eyedocplus!!
thank you so much for the detail answers! 🙂
it was really informational and helpful! hope your practice is running wonderfully.

 

[sco1styear]

The answer is that it's a dumb question with no good answer. Someone already gave you a range, which is about the best you can do. I'd probably widen it a little to be anywhere from $0 to $200,000 or so your first year.

I don't think it was a dumb question at all. It's a question people ask over and over - because it's a good question. It's important to understand there are ranges and to get an idea of what people are starting off making. It is even more important to find out what the salaries are in specific areas you may want to practice.