How much can a poor step 2 hurt this late in the season?

[JHUNBC]

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Hey everyone,

I realize similar threads exist in the forum already, but in my (albeit limited) search I was unable to find a conrete answer. I also posted in the General Surgery forum instead of the Step 2 forum in an effort to hopefully get some upper level and experienced resident/fellow/attending opinions.

Assuming an applicant has decent Step 1 scores, clinical grades, and letters, can a poor/mediocre Step 2 score really hurt an applicant in the eyes of the program? Has anyone personally decided (or heard of a colleage who decided) to rank an applicant lower or not even rank him/her at all based on a sub-par Step 2 score?

Thanks in advance!

 

[DTR]

Yeah, I'm in the same boat. I'm going for gen surg. I have solid clinical grades, good letters, decent Step 1 at >220 and I already have more interviews scheduled than I really have time for (20+), but I got my Step 2 back with a score <210 - a difference of 15 points.

I've already interviewed at a few places before I knew my step 2 score and they didn't seem to care very much about it - didn't ask me about it. A few others did ask and I temporized by saying that I hadn't received the score yet. They requested that I follow up later and tell them.

The most obvious thing for me now to do is not release my score. At the very least I can do damage control by only telling those interviewers who ask me directly. Another solution that comes to mind is simply failing to inform those programs which asked me to send in the score, but that seems risky - they might assume I failed the exam or am otherwise not dependable.

Is it better to tell future interviewers in person (thus potentially coloring the encounter but giving me a chance to plead my defense) or to continue saying I did not receive the score (at most for the next week or two of interviews) and sending it to the secretary a week later? Or is all of this neurotic nonsense and makes no difference?

I hope that I'm giving this score way too much time and thought.

 

[trauma911]

DTR you might want to make time for all the interviews 🙂 jk you'll be fine

 

[newyorkdoc9]

I'm in the same boat...

Here is what I came up with in terms of a solution...let me know what you think.

1) First (and best) option is that they dont ask (since I didn't release)

2) If they do ask, I would say: I passed CS and am taking CK in January. By saying this I am 'confusing' the cs and ck tests, since I am actually planned to take cs in january and i already took ck. I thought this could easily be passed off as confusion in translation, instead as a full out lie.

3) I could just say my grade if asked

4) I could say that I didn't get my score back. However, this may seem odd since I took it in september..

what do you all think?

 

[trauma911]

I'm in the same boat...

Here is what I came up with in terms of a solution...let me know what you think.

1) First (and best) option is that they dont ask (since I didn't release)

2) If they do ask, I would say: I passed CS and am taking CK in January. By saying this I am 'confusing' the cs and ck tests, since I am actually planned to take cs in january and i already took ck. I thought this could easily be passed off as confusion in translation, instead as a full out lie.

3) I could just say my grade if asked

4) I could say that I didn't get my score back. However, this may seem odd since I took it in september..

what do you all think?

Grow up and take responsibility for your scores! why would you lie?!?!?! If you do, it will eventually kick you in the butt!! that's what I think...

 

[deleted230824]

2) If they do ask, I would say: I passed CS and am taking CK in January. By saying this I am 'confusing' the cs and ck tests, since I am actually planned to take cs in january and i already took ck. I thought this could easily be passed off as confusion in translation, instead as a full out lie.

3) I could just say my grade if asked

4) I could say that I didn't get my score back. However, this may seem odd since I took it in september..

Wait, let me see if I understand this: two of the three options you have involving blatantly lying? That is certainly one way to demonstrate your maturity and ethical wherewithal to be a surgeon. How are you planning on dealing with a surgical complication? Tell the family about a different patient with a good outcome and then just claim you were "confused?" Tell them that the surgery isn't over yet?

Have you learned nothing from family sitcoms throughout the years? Whenever you lie to cover up a mistake, you end up making the situation a whole lot worse. So, I might consider telling the truth & taking responsbility for what happened. Hell, if you explained how you learned from this situation, you may actually be able to impress them.

 

[Shangal]

Why will you admit that you will lie about your step 2 score?

To be honest, I really doubt they will ask you about it in the first place. So far, I've been only asked about things in my file. That and football!

 

[Winged Scapula]

I'm in the same boat...

Here is what I came up with in terms of a solution...let me know what you think.

1) First (and best) option is that they dont ask (since I didn't release)

Not really an option since its not up to you whether or not faculty ask.

2) If they do ask, I would say: I passed CS and am taking CK in January. By saying this I am 'confusing' the cs and ck tests, since I am actually planned to take cs in january and i already took ck. I thought this could easily be passed off as confusion in translation, instead as a full out lie.

Hmmm...I supppose you could write it off as confusion, but why would you want to give the impression that you are easily confused? Verbal communication skills are extremely important, I don't suggest you do anything to suggest that yours are less than optimal.

As for lying...well, I think the others above have adequately suggested that this is a bad idea.

3) I could just say my grade if asked

Well since you don't get a grade, I'll assume you mean your score is what you'll give when asked. This is the best idea...and to have a reasonable explanation if the score isn't what you expected.

4) I could say that I didn't get my score back. However, this may seem odd since I took it in september..

Yes, it will seem odd. As a matter of fact, it will either look like you are lying, covering something up, or are so nonchalant about your score that you didn't contact the NBME and find out where your score report was. None of those bode well for a future resident. I'd figure you to be the intern who orders tests and either lies about the results when asked and/or never takes the time to find out the results.

what do you all think?

With the exception of #3, they are all poor ideas, IMHO.

 

[DTR]

So is there an answer for the OP's original question? How badly do PDs look at sub-par Step 2 scores with everything else being fine?

 

[mystma0621]

So, just to revive this old thread for some quick advice for a 2012 gen surg applicant:
Step 1: 230 (okay, but not great)
Step 2: just got it back at 239. So, again, shouldn't hurt me, but probably won't help me get interviews i wouldn't otherwise get, right? should i release it now?
for some context, submitted my app early Sept to 38 programs, but have only heard back so far from 1 program for interview (no other contact), assuming it's because only 1/3 of my letters are in (hopefully the other 2 will be in by midweek next week).
thoughts? thanks!

 

[LucidSplash]

I say release. A Step 2 that is even marginally better than your Step 1 (which was good to begin with) shows that your Step 1 was not a fluke and you've continued to improve. This will not hurt you and will have either no effect or a positive effect. Nothing to lose.

 

[ESU_MD]

Just take the test in enough time so you can send it in with your application.
In my old program, they wouldnt interview anyone who didnt have a step 2 score.

You arent fooling anyone playing the game of not releasing scores, etc. It just makes you look like you are not confident to take a test, or have something to hide.

 

[SLUser11]

So, just to revive this old thread for some quick advice for a 2012 gen surg applicant:
Step 1: 230 (okay, but not great)
Step 2: just got it back at 239. So, again, shouldn't hurt me, but probably won't help me get interviews i wouldn't otherwise get, right? should i release it now?
for some context, submitted my app early Sept to 38 programs, but have only heard back so far from 1 program for interview (no other contact), assuming it's because only 1/3 of my letters are in (hopefully the other 2 will be in by midweek next week).
thoughts? thanks!

The short answer is yes, you should release your Step 2 score.

However, your post is making me question the mentality that "there's no such thing as a stupid question."

What harm do you think could occur by releasing the score?

 

[Valadi]

What I've generally heard is that even though people may play the game and not take step 2 until interviews are out, they will still consider them come rank list time.

A 10 point drop isn't likely to make a huge difference, but let's say you drop 30 points for whatever reason. Wouldn't you like the opportunity to discuss this at your interview rather than them just moving you down the rank list without a discussion?

 

[mystma0621]

The short answer is yes, you should release your Step 2 score.

However, your post is making me question the mentality that "there's no such thing as a stupid question."

What harm do you think could occur by releasing the score?

Thanks for the posts, guys. Yeah, I didn't have anywhere else to ask...and just was wondering if there might be a reason to hold onto it that I was otherwise unaware of. But appreciate the input.

 

[Buzz Me]

So, just to revive this old thread for some quick advice for a 2012 gen surg applicant:
Step 1: 230 (okay, but not great)
Step 2: just got it back at 239. So, again, shouldn't hurt me, but probably won't help me get interviews i wouldn't otherwise get, right? should i release it now?

I don't understand. You improved on your (already strong) Step 1 score and are wondering if you should submit it or not? Were you expecting a really high score (more in the 250s-260s range), and were going to avoid submitting if you didn't get that?

That's like drawing to an inside straight or staying in to see the river when you have four cards to a flush with one out.

 

[SLUser11]

I don't understand. You improved on your (already strong) Step 1 score and are wondering if you should submit it or not? Were you expecting a really high score (more in the 250s-260s range), and were going to avoid submitting if you didn't get that?

That's like drawing to an inside straight or staying in to see the river when you have four cards to a flush with one out.

Agreed, those are good scores.

However, I recently saw a graph on the national average step 1 and 2 scores, and they have both increased at a steady rate over the years. Does this mean med students are getting smarter? No, of course not, but they are figuring out the test, and the study resources are better.

I think 5-10 years from now, a score of 230 will be much less impressive than it was when we went through the process. The smart thing for the USMLE to do is to re-scale the exam...I'm not sure why they haven't done that yet.

 

[DoctwoB]

What I've generally heard is that even though people may play the game and not take step 2 until interviews are out, they will still consider them come rank list time.

A 10 point drop isn't likely to make a huge difference, but let's say you drop 30 points for whatever reason. Wouldn't you like the opportunity to discuss this at your interview rather than them just moving you down the rank list without a discussion?

Agreed. If your Step 2 score is going to kill your chances at a school, better to have it early so you can (a) explain it at the interview (b) do something else to make up for it, or (c) not get an interview at a place that wouldn't have taken you due to your step2 score either way, and save the time and money to interview at another place.

 

[VFib44]

So, just to revive this old thread for some quick advice for a 2012 gen surg applicant:
Step 1: 230 (okay, but not great)
Step 2: just got it back at 239. So, again, shouldn't hurt me, but probably won't help me get interviews i wouldn't otherwise get, right? should i release it now?
for some context, submitted my app early Sept to 38 programs, but have only heard back so far from 1 program for interview (no other contact), assuming it's because only 1/3 of my letters are in (hopefully the other 2 will be in by midweek next week).
thoughts? thanks!

I think your main goal now should be getting in the other 2 letters.....if you look at the match data from PD, the number one thing they look at is your LORs. If you're not getting invites, that might be the hold up. But release the Step 2, it shouldn't hurt at all.

 

[chirurgeon]

>>Assuming an applicant has decent Step 1 scores, clinical grades, and >>letters, can a poor/mediocre Step 2 score really hurt an applicant in the >>eyes of the program? Has anyone personally decided (or heard of a >>colleage who decided) to rank an applicant lower or not even rank him/her >>at all based on a sub-par Step 2 score?

As long as the LOR are strong and everything else in the profile is good, you might be granted a mulligan. At my residency program, the committee put a much stronger emphasis on Step 1 score, thinking that it had higher predictive value of passing ABSITES and eventually the written Boards compared to the Step 2 score. The Step 2 score would have to be significantly lower (> 30 points) to catch my attention.

 

[Per4mer8]

>>Assuming an applicant has decent Step 1 scores, clinical grades, and >>letters, can a poor/mediocre Step 2 score really hurt an applicant in the >>eyes of the program? Has anyone personally decided (or heard of a >>colleage who decided) to rank an applicant lower or not even rank him/her >>at all based on a sub-par Step 2 score?

As long as the LOR are strong and everything else in the profile is good, you might be granted a mulligan. At my residency program, the committee put a much stronger emphasis on Step 1 score, thinking that it had higher predictive value of passing ABSITES and eventually the written Boards compared to the Step 2 score. The Step 2 score would have to be significantly lower (> 30 points) to catch my attention.

Just curious, is it still true that the vast majority of people improve on their step 1 score or is that just something all med students hear to motivate them? I heard the avg student increases their step 2 by 10-15 pts over step 1? T/F?

 

[Valadi]

Just curious, is it still true that the vast majority of people improve on their step 1 score or is that just something all med students hear to motivate them? I heard the avg student increases their step 2 by 10-15 pts over step 1? T/F?

Yes. The mean is around 10 points higher. So if you score in the same percentile as you did on step 1, that would be about 10 points higher. Hence that 'rumor'

 

[uchicago]

Since most of the grads here are AMGs, I am not sure how it is helpful to give an opnion for IMGs. But let's see:

Graduation: 2007 (-)
Step 1: 240s (+)
Step 2: 260s (2nd attempt 🙁)(+/-)
Research: 1 paper: presented in annual SVS national meeting (+)
1 paper published JVS. (+)
USCE: 8 mo (UM, CCF, Mayo, UofC) with 5 LoR (one from Vascular Chief, and another from GS attending) (+)
Don't need visa (green card)


I know I don't have big chance and I am realistic not applying for categorical. Only prelim.

Do you guys think I can actually get a spot for prelim? I have 3 iv so far, one at a university based. So what do you think guys?

In case, God forbid, I didn't get matched, what should I do; research or what?

Thanks and I appreciate any constructive input.

 

[Buzz Me]

You failed Step 2 CK the first time, then scored in the 260s the second time?!

What made the difference?

 

[Valadi]

You failed Step 2 CK the first time, then scored in the 260s the second time?!

What made the difference?

I'd like to know too.

Also, why the long gap from graduating?

 

[uchicago]

I'd like to know too.

Also, why the long gap from graduating?

Not much, just added MTB ck, and finished all UW twice, instead of 75% only once in the first time. Plus, my father died 2 nights before the first real deal. I thought I could do it, so I gave it a shot, but it didn't work.
I woked as research fellow in lab and clinic while studying for the exams.

 

[uchicago]

So no comments so far?

 

[Svidrillion]

So no comments so far?

Since most of the grads here are AMGs, I am not sure how it is helpful to give an opnion for IMGs. But let's see:

Graduation: 2007 (-)
Step 1: 240s (+)
Step 2: 260s (2nd attempt 🙁)(+/-)
Research: 1 paper: presented in annual SVS national meeting (+)
1 paper published JVS. (+)
USCE: 8 mo (UM, CCF, Mayo, UofC) with 5 LoR (one from Vascular Chief, and another from GS attending) (+)
Don't need visa (green card)


I know I don't have big chance and I am realistic not applying for categorical. Only prelim.

Do you guys think I can actually get a spot for prelim? I have 3 iv so far, one at a university based. So what do you think guys?

In case, God forbid, I didn't get matched, what should I do; research or what?

Thanks and I appreciate any constructive input.

From what you presented, a prelim position seems very possible. Even if you don't match into a prelim spot, I imagine you have a good shot at scrambling into one. The question for you is at what type of program. Some programs treat their prelims better and have better track records for helping their prelims get categorical spots (which I presume would be your ultimate goal).

If you don't match, try to scramble into a prelim spot.

 

[uchicago]

From what you presented, a prelim position seems very possible. Even if you don't match into a prelim spot, I imagine you have a good shot at scrambling into one. The question for you is at what type of program. Some programs treat their prelims better and have better track records for helping their prelims get categorical spots (which I presume would be your ultimate goal).

If you don't match, try to scramble into a prelim spot.

Thank you for the advice and I appreciate your time. Do you have an idea of what programs would be interested in having their prelims getting a categorical spots? I know one (Mayo-MN). If not, do you recommend a resource that would help in getting more info.?

Thank you again!

 

[45408]

Yes. The mean is around 10 points higher. So if you score in the same percentile as you did on step 1, that would be about 10 points higher. Hence that 'rumor'

I think the average score was ~4 points higher for Step 2 than Step 1 when I took it (08 and 09), maybe 5 points. I'm pretty sure it wasn't 10.

I scored the same on all three Steps, and it was about "4 weeks, 4 days, 4 afternoons," for my study regimen.

 

[Orbo]

FWIW, the average when I took step 1 two years ago was 221. The average when I took step 2 a few months ago was 233.