How much can a Private Dentist Make?

[aphistis]

---

Members do not see this ad.

deep.

Accurate.

 

[Huggies]

For those who will be new associates soon. I work at 2 different offices. One office I started 3mo ago, so it's a good comparison of what you can expect. I work there 2 days/week. The area is pretty busy w/ dentists for a small town. I work 8:30-5 w/ 1hr lunch break. I'm the 4th dentist at the office, so my schedule gets filled last, though I am usually fully booked (though light). I do all the new patient exams, some hygiene, lots of restorative work, occasional crown and RCT. So not highly paid procedures. I basically have to build up my own patient pool. Last month I made $6K. I think as the complexity of care increases, and I'm busier I would expect to take 8-10K/mo and make 100K at this office. Again that's 2days/wk.

The other office where I worked full time initially, I would make 10-12K first 6mo, and after that my income would vary 15-20K/mo, depending on the month.
As a new associate, you really can't afford to waste your time at an office where you're not busy. It's not just about the money but more importantly about the skills you are NOT developing/polishing/expanding. If you're not sure about an office, work part time at couple different ones, or before you sign any legal contracts, ask to "try" the arrangement for 3mo. You don't want to commit to something you can't get out of.

So don't worry you will make more than enough money, especially as you become faster. One dentist that I work w/ (>10 experience) will take 40min, to do large multiple fillings that will take me 1.5hrs, the guy is unbelievable and the speed does NOT compromise the quality of work. That's what you should aspire to. Because like somebody already mentioned, in dentistry it all depends on what your hands can produce.The money will follow. 👍

I think we're pretty lucky, despite some tough days or tricky procedures, I LOVE going to work everyday, and the fact that I get paid well, is just icing on the cake. I have to tell you that when I initially applied to dental school, I thought dentists made around 50K/yr (I read some old reports), I was in faculty of arts and didn't know anybody applying to dental school. You can imagine my surprise upon entering the program.

 

[Lurchdubious]

For those who will be new associates soon. I work at 2 different offices. One office I started 3mo ago, so it's a good comparison of what you can expect. I work there 2 days/week. The area is pretty busy w/ dentists for a small town. I work 8:30-5 w/ 1hr lunch break. I'm the 4th dentist at the office, so my schedule gets filled last, though I am usually fully booked (though light). I do all the new patient exams, some hygiene, lots of restorative work, occasional crown and RCT. So not highly paid procedures. I basically have to build up my own patient pool. Last month I made $6K. I think as the complexity of care increases, and I'm busier I would expect to take 8-10K/mo and make 100K at this office. Again that's 2days/wk.

The other office where I worked full time initially, I would make 10-12K first 6mo, and after that my income would vary 15-20K/mo, depending on the month.
As a new associate, you really can't afford to waste your time at an office where you're not busy. It's not just about the money but more importantly about the skills you are NOT developing/polishing/expanding. If you're not sure about an office, work part time at couple different ones, or before you sign any legal contracts, ask to "try" the arrangement for 3mo. You don't want to commit to something you can't get out of.

So don't worry you will make more than enough money, especially as you become faster. One dentist that I work w/ (>10 experience) will take 40min, to do large multiple fillings that will take me 1.5hrs, the guy is unbelievable and the speed does NOT compromise the quality of work. That's what you should aspire to. Because like somebody already mentioned, in dentistry it all depends on what your hands can produce.The money will follow. 👍

I think we're pretty lucky, despite some tough days or tricky procedures, I LOVE going to work everyday, and the fact that I get paid well, is just icing on the cake. I have to tell you that when I initially applied to dental school, I thought dentists made around 50K/yr (I read some old reports), I was in faculty of arts and didn't know anybody applying to dental school. You can imagine my surprise upon entering the program.

Good info!


Anyone have any input on how this scenario might compare to the States? (As Huggies is from Canada)

 

[Huggies]

I think our fees are very similar, I remember comparing it with a classmate working in New Jersey.

 

[BORNagainSTDENT]

so can a dentist be much more entripenurial than a doctor? I was looking dentistry up for a friend and I am now curious about how they compare.

 

[usbigbird]

so can a dentist be much more entripenurial than a doctor? I was looking dentistry up for a friend and I am now curious about how they compare.

no way!!!

 

[bipolardoc]

For those who will be new associates soon. I work at 2 different offices. One office I started 3mo ago, so it's a good comparison of what you can expect. I work there 2 days/week. The area is pretty busy w/ dentists for a small town. I work 8:30-5 w/ 1hr lunch break. I'm the 4th dentist at the office, so my schedule gets filled last, though I am usually fully booked (though light). I do all the new patient exams, some hygiene, lots of restorative work, occasional crown and RCT. So not highly paid procedures. I basically have to build up my own patient pool. Last month I made $6K. I think as the complexity of care increases, and I'm busier I would expect to take 8-10K/mo and make 100K at this office. Again that's 2days/wk.

The other office where I worked full time initially, I would make 10-12K first 6mo, and after that my income would vary 15-20K/mo, depending on the month.
As a new associate, you really can't afford to waste your time at an office where you're not busy. It's not just about the money but more importantly about the skills you are NOT developing/polishing/expanding. If you're not sure about an office, work part time at couple different ones, or before you sign any legal contracts, ask to "try" the arrangement for 3mo. You don't want to commit to something you can't get out of.

So don't worry you will make more than enough money, especially as you become faster. One dentist that I work w/ (>10 experience) will take 40min, to do large multiple fillings that will take me 1.5hrs, the guy is unbelievable and the speed does NOT compromise the quality of work. That's what you should aspire to. Because like somebody already mentioned, in dentistry it all depends on what your hands can produce.The money will follow. 👍

I think we're pretty lucky, despite some tough days or tricky procedures, I LOVE going to work everyday, and the fact that I get paid well, is just icing on the cake. I have to tell you that when I initially applied to dental school, I thought dentists made around 50K/yr (I read some old reports), I was in faculty of arts and didn't know anybody applying to dental school. You can imagine my surprise upon entering the program.

Is all that money in US or Canadian dollars? Curious. Also how long have you been out of school and what do you think you pull in/year with both jobs?

 

[OceanDMD]

Is all that money in US or Canadian dollars? Curious. Also how long have you been out of school and what do you think you pull in/year with both jobs?

misread thread

 

[Huggies]

Is all that money in US or Canadian dollars? Curious. Also how long have you been out of school and what do you think you pull in/year with both jobs?

I've been out for 5yrs, so I'm definitely faster than when I started, but again patient pool is important. I have small kids at home so I chose a practice close to home w/ great mentorship, over the other office that's a lot further away but could give me twice as much money. I'll be working there again starting January, probably 1/wk, and will make the same as the first office (working 2/wk). I treat all the kids there and do all exo's. So for all 3 days, I'd expect to make around $175,000, at both offices.

 

[BORNagainSTDENT]

I've been out for almost 5yrs, so I'm definitely faster than when I started, but again patient pool is important. I have small kids at home so I chose a practice close to home w/ great mentorship, over the other office that's a lot further away but could give me twice as much money. I'll be working there again starting January, probably 1/wk, and will make the same as the first office (working 2/wk). I treat all the kids there and do all exo's. So for all 3 days, I'd expect to make around $175,000, at both offices.

175 at each office?

 

[Huggies]

175 at each office?

Both offices (3 days).

 

[bipolardoc]

Both offices (3 days).

I wonder what location that is in and the cost of living there. Is such salaries pretty typical. One of my indian undergrad friends was looking for someone to sponser his visa and finally after a tought road after dental school and resideny/GPR loyola, he ended up getting a position in rural middle of no where position in wisconsin for 95K 5 days per week regular full time hours. The guy was one of the brightest people I met too.

 

[makushin]

.

 

[pietrodds]

I've followed this post a bit and feel compelled to weigh in. Many young dentists come out(and go in to Dschool for that matter) with unrealistic expectations. As young dentists continue to dig themselves into deeper and deeper debt with ever-rising costs of tuition, they want to have the comfort of knowing that 'it was worth it.' The reality is that most new grads make about 75-90K and that is usually without any extra perks and assuming the economy doesnt take a nosedive(you're the first one cut if times are bad). If you land a great associateship(very subjective as to what is GREAT) there is about a 10% chance you'll make about 150K. As an owner in a well positioned location you can expect about 200-300K once the loan is paid off. There's no real ceiling but that's about average. You can only make what someone is willing to pay you as an associate. The reality is that many are not willing to pay you that much more because they just want you to do the crap they don't which is the low profit and high stress stuff. Most young dentists bounce from job to job the first 3-5 years only to realize they most stable 'job' is to work for yourself. It comes with it's own stresses but provides the most job stability. I consider myself to be good with patients, place and restore implants, do most endo, and surgery and never made more than 120k in practice. You need to understand that it's all about having patients willing to pay for your services and in most associateships you're competing against every other doc in the practice most of all the owner. Do your best to position yourself financially where you can live off of 75K or less and sock the rest of it in the bank for a rainy day such as the owner kicking you out or you deciding to venture out on your own. Best of luck and BE REALISTIC! Thinking that you're going to just jump into a practice working for someone else and make 200K is not practical and yet many think that's it's simply a matter of working hard. It's much more complicated than that... it's more a matter of working smart and eventually working for yourself.

 

[OceanDMD]

I've followed this post a bit and feel compelled to weigh in. Many young dentists come out(and go in to Dschool for that matter) with unrealistic expectations. As young dentists continue to dig themselves into deeper and deeper debt with ever-rising costs of tuition, they want to have the comfort of knowing that 'it was worth it.' The reality is that most new grads make about 75-90K and that is usually without any extra perks and assuming the economy doesnt take a nosedive(you're the first one cut if times are bad). If you land a great associateship(very subjective as to what is GREAT) there is about a 10% chance you'll make about 150K. As an owner in a well positioned location you can expect about 200-300K once the loan is paid off. There's no real ceiling but that's about average. You can only make what someone is willing to pay you as an associate. The reality is that many are not willing to pay you that much more because they just want you to do the crap they don't which is the low profit and high stress stuff. Most young dentists bounce from job to job the first 3-5 years only to realize they most stable 'job' is to work for yourself. It comes with it's own stresses but provides the most job stability. I consider myself to be good with patients, place and restore implants, do most endo, and surgery and never made more than 120k in practice. You need to understand that it's all about having patients willing to pay for your services and in most associateships you're competing against every other doc in the practice most of all the owner. Do your best to position yourself financially where you can live off of 75K or less and sock the rest of it in the bank for a rainy day such as the owner kicking you out or you deciding to venture out on your own. Best of luck and BE REALISTIC! Thinking that you're going to just jump into a practice working for someone else and make 200K is not practical and yet many think that's it's simply a matter of working hard. It's much more complicated than that... it's more a matter of working smart and eventually working for yourself.

This is reality. 2 days a week in an associateship making 10k/month is a bit unrealistic. If you are paid 35% of your COLLECTIONS you have to collect $3000-$3500 PER DAY. Working 4 days/week as an owner and collecting 3500/day will gross you over 200k/year.

 

[DrReo]

I've followed this post a bit and feel compelled to weigh in. Many young dentists come out(and go in to Dschool for that matter) with unrealistic expectations. As young dentists continue to dig themselves into deeper and deeper debt with ever-rising costs of tuition, they want to have the comfort of knowing that 'it was worth it.' The reality is that most new grads make about 75-90K and that is usually without any extra perks and assuming the economy doesnt take a nosedive(you're the first one cut if times are bad). If you land a great associateship(very subjective as to what is GREAT) there is about a 10% chance you'll make about 150K. As an owner in a well positioned location you can expect about 200-300K once the loan is paid off. There's no real ceiling but that's about average. You can only make what someone is willing to pay you as an associate. The reality is that many are not willing to pay you that much more because they just want you to do the crap they don't which is the low profit and high stress stuff. Most young dentists bounce from job to job the first 3-5 years only to realize they most stable 'job' is to work for yourself. It comes with it's own stresses but provides the most job stability. I consider myself to be good with patients, place and restore implants, do most endo, and surgery and never made more than 120k in practice. You need to understand that it's all about having patients willing to pay for your services and in most associateships you're competing against every other doc in the practice most of all the owner. Do your best to position yourself financially where you can live off of 75K or less and sock the rest of it in the bank for a rainy day such as the owner kicking you out or you deciding to venture out on your own. Best of luck and BE REALISTIC! Thinking that you're going to just jump into a practice working for someone else and make 200K is not practical and yet many think that's it's simply a matter of working hard. It's much more complicated than that... it's more a matter of working smart and eventually working for yourself.

What's your take on working for a practice that allows one to slowly take over while the owner retires?

 

[i7ishot]

\ Thinking that you're going to just jump into a practice working for someone else and make 200K is not practical and yet many think that's it's simply a matter of working hard. It's much more complicated than that....

I also agree. No matter how much of a slave dentist you want to be, there will not be enough procedures to do if you're not seeing a lot of patients or if your patients are not willing to pay for the proposed treatment. And if you don't do enough procedures, obviously that means less $$$.

I'll share my personal info:
Job #1: Medicaid clinic, very few patients, most equipment were old or broken, worked as an independent contractor and netted about $1200 in 6 days via 35% of collections. I quit right after that paycheck.

Job #2: This is where I currently am. This office pays for my malpractice insurance, CE, health/disability insurance, and all other perks. I'm taking home $12000 per month.

The reason why I'm not seeing anywhere close to 200k per year is not because I'm slow. I know I can improve in speed but the reality is that there are so many empty slots in my appointment book. I'm reading the papers or taking a nap for 3 hrs/day on average. I'm simply not seeing enough patients. And whatever patients I do see end up being shocked that they have to pay up to a thousand bucks for a treatment plan. I never see them again.

Dentistry doesn't come close to medicine in salary. At least in medicine, the demand is there and the patients are more willing to accept your procedural recommendations. Dental services always takes a backseat and people don't quite see the point unless if they're having tooth pain or some major esthetic issues.

I'm talking of this from the viewpoint of a general dentist. But I doubt dental specialists have it that much better. Like I said, most people don't see the value in dentistry. If they're likely to skimp on general dental procedures, why would they shell out more money for the more expensive specialty procedures? In the course of the past 3 months, I referred a total of three patients for ortho and two for oral surgery, and I doubt they all accepted specialty treatment plans.

 

[capisce?]

I'm talking of this from the viewpoint of a general dentist. But I doubt dental specialists have it that much better. Like I said, most people don't see the value in dentistry. If they're likely to skimp on general dental procedures, why would they shell out more money for the more expensive specialty procedures? In the course of the past 3 months, I referred a total of three patients for ortho and two for oral surgery, and I doubt they all accepted specialty treatment plans.

I see your point but look at it a different way. Even in a tough economy...people place value on having straight teeth because it's important in our society. Parents my skimp on themselves and their treatment but the first dollar usually goes towards their kids.

Pedo: same thing. We are seeing a slowdown and parents are balking at treatment a little more. With that said though, parents usually will take care of their kids before their own teeth. Although it is still elective most parents are really into what's going on with their children.

Oral surgery...a lot of their procedures are medically necessary and as far as the wizzies...the the nice thing is they aren't a tough sell. Common public perception is that 3rds usually need to come out. So when you give those referrals it's not the same as trying to sell a buildup and pfm.

Our CPA told us his ortho clients are down about 12% and his GPs about 15% due to the economy. Obviously with higher fees the specialists still fare well with the patient load they have.

The interesting thing I've found is that usually people aspire to have a high-end practice. I'll tell you the parents who have really had some financial issues in our practice are those people...that are keeping up with the joneses. You might think because they drive that lexus or bmw that the 1k treatment plan is no issue...but in many cases they are the very americans who were living beyond their means who are in some tough spots. On the contrary, sometimes the people who haven't showered in a day or two who drive up in the beaten up old pickup are the ones who plunk down a grand in cash to pay for treatment. It's because they aren't living the 'American lifestyle'. Along the same lines, the blue-collar patients are still the ones who take your word because you are a doc and they still have trust in us. The upper class patients and parents are the ones who sit on the internet researching things to death...and then come in and try to dictate what treatment you 'should' do instead of listening to what your 10 years of education tells them they really need.

 

[Huggies]

[/quote] The interesting thing I've found is that usually people aspire to have a high-end practice. I'll tell you the parents who have really had some financial issues in our practice are those people...that are keeping up with the joneses. You might think because they drive that lexus or bmw that the 1k treatment plan is no issue...but in many cases they are the very americans who were living beyond their means who are in some tough spots. On the contrary, sometimes the people who haven't showered in a day or two who drive up in the beaten up old pickup are the ones who plunk down a grand in cash to pay for treatment. It's because they aren't living the 'American lifestyle'. Along the same lines, the blue-collar patients are still the ones who take your word because you are a doc and they still have trust in us. The upper class patients and parents are the ones who sit on the internet researching things to death...and then come in and try to dictate what treatment you 'should' do instead of listening to what your 10 years of education tells them they really need.[/quote]

I agree w/ that. The biggest tx plan that a patient accepted number of years ago (over $20K) was a truck driver. You just can't assume anything about patients. What I like about my office, is that we, dentists, DON'T discuss cost w/ patients. We give them the options, recommend best tx, but the tx coordinator (front desk) discusses all costs w/ them depending on their insurance. This is great for me, b/c their insurance or finances don't affect my recommendation.

Oh, and for those who get 35% cut, here where I live min commission is 40%, but no perks. If you work in more rural areas you can get more.

 

[OceanDMD]

I disagree... I know several GP's that place implants etc. who make: 600,000 up per year. Location is key.

source: dentalscholarnews.com

If I may ask, how do you know these "several GPs" and how did the conversation go when they divulged their salaries? You can disagree all you want, reality is that GPs who make 300k and over are the minority. 500k and over is probably the top .01%.

I always love the enlightened comment "LOCATION IS KEY". Give me a break. And cat is spelled C .......A..........T. Thanks for your deep input.

 

[pietrodds]

If I may ask, how do you know these "several GPs" and how did the conversation go when they divulged their salaries? You can disagree all you want, reality is that GPs who make 300k and over are the minority. 500k and over is probably the top .01%.

I always love the enlightened comment "LOCATION IS KEY". Give me a break. And cat is spelled C .......A..........T. Thanks for your deep input.

Yes, there are people in all professions that make inordinate amounts of money and everyone thinks they're that .01% when the get out of school. I consider myself fortunate but I did a GPR and have diverse clinical skills. I know a lot of young dentists that also make what I hygienist makes, much less than 100K. I and other dentists posting are not just people telling you that I know some guy who makes this much. I've also worked with a dentist and an oral surgeon who made a seven figure salary. These are EXTREME rarities and the ones that make it happen usually took decades to get there and a very strong businessmen first and clinicians second. It is nice to know there's no limit to what a person can accomplish in a free market. I'm sure there's plumbers and teachers out there somewhere that make a million bucks a year too. We as dentists are in the trenches and live the world of dentistry. I'm just trying to instill a realistic view for the next generation of dentists coming out with >300K in loans. If you're not careful, you'll be standing in the same line looking for assistance as the folks who signed on for the subprime mortgages. Good luck and be smart!

 

[HuyetKiem]

If I may ask, how do you know these "several GPs" and how did the conversation go when they divulged their salaries? You can disagree all you want, reality is that GPs who make 300k and over are the minority. 500k and over is probably the top .01%.

I always love the enlightened comment "LOCATION IS KEY". Give me a break. And cat is spelled C .......A..........T. Thanks for your deep input.

shsssssssssssss, we should let predents and dental students daydream about that.

 

[HuyetKiem]

IAlong the same lines, the blue-collar patients are still the ones who take your word because you are a doc and they still have trust in us.

thanks goodness that my office is operated in these blue-collar areas. We've had constant regular dental workloads since June and nearly 95% treatment acceptance for ortho. Yes, those patients still have lots of trust in us. 👍👍

 

[dunnoany]

Just want to pitch in my thoughts

I am a new grad, have worked as associated in LA for about 3 months now. I fully agree with the comments that as new associate u'll have to compete with the experienced doctors in the office, and usually u'll end up the short end of the stick. On top of that the new patient #s r dropping because of economy recession, I have patients telling me this is their last cleaning because they just got layoff and lost the insurance after this week...🙁 Most patients received the initial tx then opt to wait on the bigger ones like crowns. I agree on the comment that ppl taking dentistry as a 2nd or 3rd priority when the money is tight.

Maybe is also because my location (south cal is one of the most saturated area i heard), but the job opportunities are just very limited too. I checked dental shopper magazine every issue, it's scary to see how few the ads for hiring now compare to when I first got out around may/june, and the big increase in numbers of ads looking for FT/PT jobs. Most lists >5 yrs experiences, some even with 10-20 experiences.

Not trying to be negative but new grads do need to prepare for the harsh environment, the days of national average of 120k starting is long gone

 

[Daurang]

Just want to pitch in my thoughts

I have patients telling me this is their last cleaning because they just got layoff and lost the insurance after this week.

I don't understand these patients. Do they need insurance to pay for their oil change? insurance to pay for their haircut? insurance to pay for their pedicure? insurance to pay for their supersized triple whopper with cheese meal? Why must they have insurance to pay for their teeth cleaning when it's only $20 everywhere in San Jose, Santa Ana, San Diego, etc? I even had one patient returned from Cali telling me she had a cleaning for only $5 buck!

 

[dunnoany]

I don't understand these patients. Do they need insurance to pay for their oil change? insurance to pay for their haircut? insurance to pay for their pedicure? insurance to pay for their supersized triple whopper with cheese meal? Why must they have insurance to pay for their teeth cleaning when it's only $20 everywhere in San Jose, Santa Ana, San Diego, etc? I even had one patient returned from Cali telling me she had a cleaning for only $5 buck!

All I can think of is they ENJOY those other things, but not their cleanings...😱

 

[kdanderson1]

The interesting thing i've found is that usually people aspire to have a high-end practice. I'll tell you the parents who have really had some financial issues in our practice are those people...that are keeping up with the joneses. You might think because they drive that lexus or bmw that the 1k treatment plan is no issue...but in many cases they are the very americans who were living beyond their means who are in some tough spots. On the contrary, sometimes the people who haven't showered in a day or two who drive up in the beaten up old pickup are the ones who plunk down a grand in cash to pay for treatment. It's because they aren't living the 'american lifestyle'. Along the same lines, the blue-collar patients are still the ones who take your word because you are a doc and they still have trust in us. The upper class patients and parents are the ones who sit on the internet researching things to death...and then come in and try to dictate what treatment you 'should' do instead of listening to what your 10 years of education tells them they really need.

word!!!!!!

 

[doc3232]

Thanks for all of the great input. Especially the long posts that thoroughly explained everything.
This really sets predents straight,

 

[NyCzPeter]

Just want to pitch in my thoughts

I am a new grad, have worked as associated in LA for about 3 months now. I fully agree with the comments that as new associate u'll have to compete with the experienced doctors in the office, and usually u'll end up the short end of the stick. On top of that the new patient #s r dropping because of economy recession, I have patients telling me this is their last cleaning because they just got layoff and lost the insurance after this week...🙁 Most patients received the initial tx then opt to wait on the bigger ones like crowns. I agree on the comment that ppl taking dentistry as a 2nd or 3rd priority when the money is tight.

Maybe is also because my location (south cal is one of the most saturated area i heard), but the job opportunities are just very limited too. I checked dental shopper magazine every issue, it's scary to see how few the ads for hiring now compare to when I first got out around may/june, and the big increase in numbers of ads looking for FT/PT jobs. Most lists >5 yrs experiences, some even with 10-20 experiences.

Not trying to be negative but new grads do need to prepare for the harsh environment, the days of national average of 120k starting is long gone

lol sorry man you're in LA. Right now Cali is just about the worst place to be a dentist since its outrageously oversaturated. If you're willing to go work in alaska for three years I heard they'll pay you 250k a year. But then again, who wants to be in alaska?

 

[Daurang]

Alaska has Sarah Palin which is pretty hot!🙂

 

[Quattro DMD]

lol sorry man you're in LA. Right now Cali is just about the worst place to be a dentist since its outrageously oversaturated. If you're willing to go work in alaska for three years I heard they'll pay you 250k a year. But then again, who wants to be in alaska?

I would practice dentistry in a volcano for 250K/year LOL. Some of these posts don't surprise me though, dentistry isn't an easy job, I mean the money doesn't just fall in your lap! Although my major concern is loan repayment, which makes community health centers look more attractive.

 

[NyCzPeter]

I would practice dentistry in a volcano for 250K/year LOL. Some of these posts don't surprise me though, dentistry isn't an easy job, I mean the money doesn't just fall in your lap! Although my major concern is loan repayment, which makes community health centers look more attractive.

rofl volcano, nice. I have no sources to back up my claims, its just something I happened to read off some random website a while ago.

 

[doc toothache]

I don't understand these patients. Do they need insurance to pay for their oil change? insurance to pay for their haircut? insurance to pay for their pedicure? insurance to pay for their supersized triple whopper with cheese meal? Why must they have insurance to pay for their teeth cleaning when it's only $20 everywhere in San Jose, Santa Ana, San Diego, etc? I even had one patient returned from Cali telling me she had a cleaning for only $5 buck!

Oil change-$19.95; haircut $9.95; pedicure $39.95. Most do not need a bank loan for those services including a $5 prophy but they might need one for dental treatment if cost is in the Cs and Ks. The 3 localities you mentioned may have prophies for under $20.00 but it is unlikely that there are too many practices out there that can survive with those fees. Dentist have done well learning the art of loss leaders in marketing.

 

[doc toothache]

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/Job=Dentist/Salary

 

[condoleezarice]

.

 

[DrNehalemChips]

I've lurked for years but am feeling the urge to make my first post because I want to clear up some frequent misconceptions.

1) MOST dental associateships are NOT advertised. They go through word of mouth or through personal contacts and references. Unless if they're out in the rural, good positions hardly need to be advertised.

2) It's a tough pill to swallow but just because you went through 8+ years of schooling doesn't mean you deserve anything. As a 26-30 yr old new dentist, it's very hard to convince a 50 yr old patient to accept a $2500 treatment plan, and rightfully so. It can take up to 3 - 10 yrs to actually build up a loyal, trusting patient base. You also have to understand that people do not enjoy seeing the dentist and there is a lack of public interest in spending dispensable income on dentistry. ( It's nowhere comparable to medical conditions, which most people would view seriously )

3) Some people become dentists because they think it's more lucrative than medicine. There are exceptions ( maybe for dentists who still manage to see only cash and high-end PPO patients which is no longer common ) but this idea is generally wrong as of the year 2009. Even classified ads for primary care physicians offer higher salaries on average compared to dentists. Yes, physicians require more years of training but I personally never a dentist reach medical salaries. I know that Forbes and USNews once did salary surveys and said dentists make equal or greater than some physicians. I don't know their methodology but I stick by my claims given what you see in real life job postings. Even SDN's physician forums have posters talking about $200 - $300k /yr salaries while we are talking about lower $85k - $150k/yr incomes. It's nowhere comparable. ( I don't know from a dental owner's standpoint; I only worked as an associate )

And don't get started with me about malpractice rates, hourly pay, and free time. Physicians can also have vacation days and cut back on hours. Dentists typically pay less in malpractice premiums but dental lawsuits are more common in this day and age. Your malpractice carriers will kick you out of their plans even if some wacko patient makes ONE stupid claim against you and loses. Physicians have similar latter issues but they work more often in medical groups where malpractice is paid for.

Really, I have no idea why dental students think they're better off than their medical counterparts. Enlighten me on this, please !

4) Some people here are worried that they will not break 120k/yr income when they graduate. Well, I've been there and 120k/yr is not an impossible income. If you look hard enough some rural positions offer $120k/yr in guarantees ( more if your production percentage is higher ) alone with full benefit packages. My dental classmates, after one year of graduation, ended up scattered across the country, with some making $240k/yr as general dentists. ( I don't know how ) So, yes, >200k/yr as an associate within one year is achievable but realize that most do not make it up there and I imagine it to require one hell of a relocation and being very fast in dentistry. Regrettably, I do not know the median salaries of my classmates.

On a personal note, I once made more than $170k/yr with benefits as a general dentist and this wasn't in a high class office. Instead, this office saw many DMO and PPO patients. Seeing the demand was there, I racked up my speed a bit and I earned between $550 - $1200 per day. If you progressively get more comfortable with the handpiece and wax rims, this is not really THAT hard to do as long as, again, the demand is there.

You will learn that things do not need to be done the way they teach in dental school and you can end up with an equal or better result by cutting out some of the fat. This is the way it is done in real private practice but it is IMPORTANT not to get too carried away because you can have a high likelihood of errors and patient dissatisfaction. I previously talked of malpractice but forgot about the state board. Remember that patients can complain about you to the state board for any reason. The board can subsequently audit you and will appropriately discipline you for mistakes like overhangs, poorly tapered crown preps, post and cores that come off, etc. Hard to believe but the board can even suspend your license for one of these.

One more reason I said not to get TOO carried away in speeding up is because of insurance audits. This is the scary one. If you bill a lot for certain procedures, some insurance companies will want to audit you. True Story: If they find anywhere from one to a few clerical errors in billing and charting, they can ban you from participating in their program and file criminal charges against you.

Although not common, >200k/yr is certainly attainable but I just want to be clear that there are many obstacles to making this very easy and carefree.

I finished undergrad, dental school, and one residency. I worked in various associate positions and moved back and forth across the country, and I'm speaking from experience. Feel free to chime in if you disagree. I'm eager to hear from other fellow dentists with different experiences.

 

[tevvsix]

Last year my wife and I, both dentists in private practice together, made 2 mil gross with a net of 900,000.

This year with the economy being bad we will do about 1.6mil with about 700,000 net.

If you are in the right part of the country and the right time and fast skills with good personality you will do well. We don't high sell and our fees are low $720 pfm. We work our buts off during our 8-5 1 hour lunch 4 days a week.

You can do well if you move to areas short of dentists.

what factors determine if a dentist in private practice will make a million a year or more

 

[The Hammer]

Those areas are becoming fewer and fewer.

No those areas are becoming larger and larger. Fewer dentists + a larger population = more underserved areas.

 

[MarkND]

I've lurked for years but am feeling the urge to make my first post because I want to clear up some frequent misconceptions.

1) MOST dental associateships are NOT advertised. They go through word of mouth or through personal contacts and references. Unless if they're out in the rural, good positions hardly need to be advertised.

2) It's a tough pill to swallow but just because you went through 8+ years of schooling doesn't mean you deserve anything. As a 26-30 yr old new dentist, it's very hard to convince a 50 yr old patient to accept a $2500 treatment plan, and rightfully so. It can take up to 3 - 10 yrs to actually build up a loyal, trusting patient base. You also have to understand that people do not enjoy seeing the dentist and there is a lack of public interest in spending dispensable income on dentistry. ( It's nowhere comparable to medical conditions, which most people would view seriously )

3) Some people become dentists because they think it's more lucrative than medicine. There are exceptions ( maybe for dentists who still manage to see only cash and high-end PPO patients which is no longer common ) but this idea is generally wrong as of the year 2009. Even classified ads for primary care physicians offer higher salaries on average compared to dentists. Yes, physicians require more years of training but I personally never a dentist reach medical salaries. I know that Forbes and USNews once did salary surveys and said dentists make equal or greater than some physicians. I don't know their methodology but I stick by my claims given what you see in real life job postings. Even SDN's physician forums have posters talking about $200 - $300k /yr salaries while we are talking about lower $85k - $150k/yr incomes. It's nowhere comparable. ( I don't know from a dental owner's standpoint; I only worked as an associate )

And don't get started with me about malpractice rates, hourly pay, and free time. Physicians can also have vacation days and cut back on hours. Dentists typically pay less in malpractice premiums but dental lawsuits are more common in this day and age. Your malpractice carriers will kick you out of their plans even if some wacko patient makes ONE stupid claim against you and loses. Physicians have similar latter issues but they work more often in medical groups where malpractice is paid for.

Really, I have no idea why dental students think they're better off than their medical counterparts. Enlighten me on this, please !

4) Some people here are worried that they will not break 120k/yr income when they graduate. Well, I've been there and 120k/yr is not an impossible income. If you look hard enough some rural positions offer $120k/yr in guarantees ( more if your production percentage is higher ) alone with full benefit packages. My dental classmates, after one year of graduation, ended up scattered across the country, with some making $240k/yr as general dentists. ( I don't know how ) So, yes, >200k/yr as an associate within one year is achievable but realize that most do not make it up there and I imagine it to require one hell of a relocation and being very fast in dentistry. Regrettably, I do not know the median salaries of my classmates.

On a personal note, I once made more than $170k/yr with benefits as a general dentist and this wasn't in a high class office. Instead, this office saw many DMO and PPO patients. Seeing the demand was there, I racked up my speed a bit and I earned between $550 - $1200 per day. If you progressively get more comfortable with the handpiece and wax rims, this is not really THAT hard to do as long as, again, the demand is there.

You will learn that things do not need to be done the way they teach in dental school and you can end up with an equal or better result by cutting out some of the fat. This is the way it is done in real private practice but it is IMPORTANT not to get too carried away because you can have a high likelihood of errors and patient dissatisfaction. I previously talked of malpractice but forgot about the state board. Remember that patients can complain about you to the state board for any reason. The board can subsequently audit you and will appropriately discipline you for mistakes like overhangs, poorly tapered crown preps, post and cores that come off, etc. Hard to believe but the board can even suspend your license for one of these.

One more reason I said not to get TOO carried away in speeding up is because of insurance audits. This is the scary one. If you bill a lot for certain procedures, some insurance companies will want to audit you. True Story: If they find anywhere from one to a few clerical errors in billing and charting, they can ban you from participating in their program and file criminal charges against you.

Although not common, >200k/yr is certainly attainable but I just want to be clear that there are many obstacles to making this very easy and carefree.

I finished undergrad, dental school, and one residency. I worked in various associate positions and moved back and forth across the country, and I'm speaking from experience. Feel free to chime in if you disagree. I'm eager to hear from other fellow dentists with different experiences.

Pretty depressing stuff!!! You mean I could manage restaurant and make same amount of money (70K-90k)... and didn't even have to pay 350k for my education??? Somebody cheer me up 🙁

 

[BiomajorPreDent]

How would you find this type of information? This is something that I have thought about and will definitely take into consideration when the time comes for me to set up shop. Are you pretty much on your own to research, is it luck, or are there statistics out about that?

Check the ADA's website, every few years they post surveys and info about how many dentists are in each state/part of the country

 

[The Hammer]

I've lurked for years but am feeling the urge to make my first post because I want to clear up some frequent misconceptions.

1) MOST dental associateships are NOT advertised. They go through word of mouth or through personal contacts and references. Unless if they're out in the rural, good positions hardly need to be advertised.

2) It's a tough pill to swallow but just because you went through 8+ years of schooling doesn't mean you deserve anything. As a 26-30 yr old new dentist, it's very hard to convince a 50 yr old patient to accept a $2500 treatment plan, and rightfully so. It can take up to 3 - 10 yrs to actually build up a loyal, trusting patient base. You also have to understand that people do not enjoy seeing the dentist and there is a lack of public interest in spending dispensable income on dentistry. ( It's nowhere comparable to medical conditions, which most people would view seriously )

3) Some people become dentists because they think it's more lucrative than medicine. There are exceptions ( maybe for dentists who still manage to see only cash and high-end PPO patients which is no longer common ) but this idea is generally wrong as of the year 2009. Even classified ads for primary care physicians offer higher salaries on average compared to dentists. Yes, physicians require more years of training but I personally never a dentist reach medical salaries. I know that Forbes and USNews once did salary surveys and said dentists make equal or greater than some physicians. I don't know their methodology but I stick by my claims given what you see in real life job postings. Even SDN's physician forums have posters talking about $200 - $300k /yr salaries while we are talking about lower $85k - $150k/yr incomes. It's nowhere comparable. ( I don't know from a dental owner's standpoint; I only worked as an associate )

And don't get started with me about malpractice rates, hourly pay, and free time. Physicians can also have vacation days and cut back on hours. Dentists typically pay less in malpractice premiums but dental lawsuits are more common in this day and age. Your malpractice carriers will kick you out of their plans even if some wacko patient makes ONE stupid claim against you and loses. Physicians have similar latter issues but they work more often in medical groups where malpractice is paid for.

Really, I have no idea why dental students think they're better off than their medical counterparts. Enlighten me on this, please !

4) Some people here are worried that they will not break 120k/yr income when they graduate. Well, I've been there and 120k/yr is not an impossible income. If you look hard enough some rural positions offer $120k/yr in guarantees ( more if your production percentage is higher ) alone with full benefit packages. My dental classmates, after one year of graduation, ended up scattered across the country, with some making $240k/yr as general dentists. ( I don't know how ) So, yes, >200k/yr as an associate within one year is achievable but realize that most do not make it up there and I imagine it to require one hell of a relocation and being very fast in dentistry. Regrettably, I do not know the median salaries of my classmates.

On a personal note, I once made more than $170k/yr with benefits as a general dentist and this wasn't in a high class office. Instead, this office saw many DMO and PPO patients. Seeing the demand was there, I racked up my speed a bit and I earned between $550 - $1200 per day. If you progressively get more comfortable with the handpiece and wax rims, this is not really THAT hard to do as long as, again, the demand is there.

You will learn that things do not need to be done the way they teach in dental school and you can end up with an equal or better result by cutting out some of the fat. This is the way it is done in real private practice but it is IMPORTANT not to get too carried away because you can have a high likelihood of errors and patient dissatisfaction. I previously talked of malpractice but forgot about the state board. Remember that patients can complain about you to the state board for any reason. The board can subsequently audit you and will appropriately discipline you for mistakes like overhangs, poorly tapered crown preps, post and cores that come off, etc. Hard to believe but the board can even suspend your license for one of these.

One more reason I said not to get TOO carried away in speeding up is because of insurance audits. This is the scary one. If you bill a lot for certain procedures, some insurance companies will want to audit you. True Story: If they find anywhere from one to a few clerical errors in billing and charting, they can ban you from participating in their program and file criminal charges against you.

Although not common, >200k/yr is certainly attainable but I just want to be clear that there are many obstacles to making this very easy and carefree.

I finished undergrad, dental school, and one residency. I worked in various associate positions and moved back and forth across the country, and I'm speaking from experience. Feel free to chime in if you disagree. I'm eager to hear from other fellow dentists with different experiences.

The only years that I made less than about 200k takehome was the first two years out of dental school when I was an associate. I was at best an average dental student with very average hands and speed. What I did have going for me was an unstoppable drive and unlimited tenacity. I bought a fairly busy practice in a county of 56,000 about 30 miles from a middle sized city of 700,000.

The idea of a general dentist making over $1mil takehome is pretty ridiculous unless they have other sources of income. There are only so many hours in a day that you can work so to bring home $1mil your office would have to be doing between $3.5 to 4mil a year which would put it literally in the top 5 offices in the country.

Also the idea of "location" is BS. Yes some locations are better than others but the idea that you can only have a high grossing office in a "rich" city are BS. My best patients were small business owners. The biggest case that I did which was in the high five figures was for a guy who owned an auto body shop and got his start banging out dents for MAACO. If you want a good perspective on this read "The Millionaire Next Door".

 

[Oracle DMD]

The only years that I made less than about 200k takehome was the first two years out of dental school when I was an associate. I was at best an average dental student with very average hands and speed. What I did have going for me was an unstoppable drive and unlimited tenacity. I bought a fairly busy practice in a county of 56,000 about 30 miles from a middle sized city of 700,000.

The idea of a general dentist making over $1mil takehome is pretty ridiculous unless they have other sources of income. There are only so many hours in a day that you can work so to bring home $1mil your office would have to be doing between $3.5 to 4mil a year which would put it literally in the top 5 offices in the country.

Also the idea of "location" is BS. Yes some locations are better than others but the idea that you can only have a high grossing office in a "rich" city are BS. My best patients were small business owners. The biggest case that I did which was in the high five figures was for a guy who owned an auto body shop and got his start banging out dents for MAACO. If you want a good perspective on this read "The Millionaire Next Door".

👍👍👍👍👍


like a boss!

 

[Drabuisa]

This is an outstanding thread.

I tell you one thing though, these "reality check" dentists really know how to rip out your soul and spit on your morale.

It's all good, The Hammer always comes in for the save. 🙂

 

[datdat]

Last year my wife and I, both dentists in private practice together, made 2 mil gross with a net of 900,000.

This year with the economy being bad we will do about 1.6mil with about 700,000 net.

If you are in the right part of the country and the right time and fast skills with good personality you will do well. We don't high sell and our fees are low $720 pfm. We work our buts off during our 8-5 1 hour lunch 4 days a week.

You can do well if you move to areas short of dentists.

as a GP right part of the country? for example?

 

[yuppers]

as a GP right part of the country? for example?

Rural areas are probably the main one, but that is fairly ambiguous.

 

[UCHSC DS]

I don't think this has really been covered in this thread, so I thought I would shed some light and perspective. If, as many posters have said, you were "only" making 90k per year, then you would be in the 80th percentile for income in the US as of 2007 (sorry no newer data than that). If you are like most of us students, right now you are living on a little less than $2,000 per month. At this measly salary, after taxes of let's say 20%, you would be making $6,000 per month. Obviously, you have some serious loans to pay off. If you have $200k in student loans and they are evenly distributed among the 4 different types (which they are not but for simplicity's sake we'll say they are), you would be paying about $2300/mo for 10 years. This knocks you down to a mere $3,700 per month, which is still almost double what you are currently living on. I believe there are tax deductions for interest paid on student loans, so it is actually a little more than this. Now take into consideration that you will probably increase in income in your first 3 years to making more around the average which is about $104k according to "PayScale", which is averaged over the whole country. So your after tax income has increased by about $11k/year or about $1k/month. Now you are making $4,700/mo and are in the 90th percentile for income.

Now for a little perspective. These numbers may not seem like that much, but 90th percentile means that there are approximately 270 million Americans who live on less money than you. If they can make it through, I'm sure you can manage. Another interesting statistic is the world bank in 2005 published a paper that measured the average income of an average person in the world. At $90k you would be making about $82,000 more than the average person in the world. While making money is important, it is also important to realize that there are a lot of hurting people out there, many of whom would gladly take the reported paltry sum of $90k for 35 hours a week of work. Sure many of them did not apply themselves and are where they are because of their own choices. Dentists are part of the elite, and as you can see, we are paid as such. I come from a lower class background, and I can attest to the fact that if your biggest worry is that you can't afford a brand new Mercedes and a $750,000 house within the first 5 years out of school, you're doing pretty well.

I am well aware that there are many dentists out there who make money the second priority in their practices. I would encourage all my fellow students and dentists to do the same.

 

[Tommy43087]

At $90k you would be making about $82,000 more than the average person in the world.

Seriously? Did u really just make that statement? If you count all the energy expended + stress output to get to where most Dentists are at, its a lot less than just " x amount above the average". The average person doesnt go through as much to be at where they are at career-wise.

Also, if everyone had that type of mindset there would be MUCH less "successful" people in this world. Like it or not, money is the drive for most "successful" people. IF no one worried about money, things would be very different(i.e. less technologically advanced, etc.) Yea many of the advancements today are based off of people loving what they do and being interested in furthering their field, but a lot of the real drive for most is having some type of "well-off" financial security at the end of the day.

Just my 2 cents at least😉

 

[Oracle DMD]

I don't think this has really been covered in this thread, so I thought I would shed some light and perspective. If, as many posters have said, you were "only" making 90k per year, then you would be in the 80th percentile for income in the US as of 2007 (sorry no newer data than that). If you are like most of us students, right now you are living on a little less than $2,000 per month. At this measly salary, after taxes of let's say 20%, you would be making $6,000 per month. Obviously, you have some serious loans to pay off. If you have $200k in student loans and they are evenly distributed among the 4 different types (which they are not but for simplicity's sake we'll say they are), you would be paying about $2300/mo for 10 years. This knocks you down to a mere $3,700 per month, which is still almost double what you are currently living on. I believe there are tax deductions for interest paid on student loans, so it is actually a little more than this. Now take into consideration that you will probably increase in income in your first 3 years to making more around the average which is about $104k according to "PayScale", which is averaged over the whole country. So your after tax income has increased by about $11k/year or about $1k/month. Now you are making $4,700/mo and are in the 90th percentile for income.

Now for a little perspective. These numbers may not seem like that much, but 90th percentile means that there are approximately 270 million Americans who live on less money than you. If they can make it through, I'm sure you can manage. Another interesting statistic is the world bank in 2005 published a paper that measured the average income of an average person in the world. At $90k you would be making about $82,000 more than the average person in the world. While making money is important, it is also important to realize that there are a lot of hurting people out there, many of whom would gladly take the reported paltry sum of $90k for 35 hours a week of work. Sure many of them did not apply themselves and are where they are because of their own choices. Dentists are part of the elite, and as you can see, we are paid as such. I come from a lower class background, and I can attest to the fact that if your biggest worry is that you can't afford a brand new Mercedes and a $750,000 house within the first 5 years out of school, you're doing pretty well.

I am well aware that there are many dentists out there who make money the second priority in their practices. I would encourage all my fellow students and dentists to do the same.

what about if you're 400k in debt? you're looking at over 4500/mo for 10 years!!! you can spread that over 30 years if you feel like its worth an extra million dollars in interest. 😱 what if your wife would like to have come out of the work force to have kids before she's 40? i get the whole "its not all about the money" thing but it is not fair to say dentists are selfish if they balk at 90k. for fresh USC/UPenn/NYU grads, they BETTER balk at 90k if they want to survive.

the big house/ expensive car thing that you have a problem with, isnt the people being offered 90k. i know you come from a <self described> "lower class" background but educate yourself on the subject before jumping to conclusions.

 

[BiomajorPreDent]

what about if you're 400k in debt? you're looking at over 4500/mo for 10 years!!! you can spread that over 30 years if you feel like its worth an extra million dollars in interest. 😱 what if your wife would like to have come out of the work force to have before she's 40? i get the whole "its not all about the money" thing but it is not fair to say dentists are selfish if they balk at 90k. for fresh USC/UPenn/NYU grads, they BETTER balk at 90k if they want to survive.

the big house/ expensive car thing that you have a problem with, isnt the people being offered 90k. i know you come from a <self described> "lower class" background but educate yourself on the subject before jumping to conclusions.

+1

To UCHSC DS: If we wanted to just pull in $4,000 a month we would just skip dental school and get any other blue or white collar job. We could also then avoid 4 years of intense schooling and $300k debt.

Dentistry brings a great career and job security. It is expensive to make a dentist, thus the compensation has to be higher, otherwise there would be no dentists.

Yes you can have a $90K a year income and be humble and thankful you are making 90% more than the average person on the planet.

However, the only thing you should be comparing yourself to is the cost of living where you currently live. That and the amount of debt you acrued over your the course of undergrad and dental school is what you need to figure out how much money you need to make to make a living.

And as was said in other posts, please don't tell us that we should not be so concerned with the money aspect of dentistry. At the end of the day, dentistry is a job, and people get jobs to make money.

 

[Palmetto914]

Those of you bashing UCHSC DS are missing the point. Complaining about bringing in $90k or so right out of school is pretty arrogant. And going out and implying everyone goes into dentistry does it for the money is even worse. I'd gladly take my $60k salary I was making as an engineer as my salary as a dentist. I no longer have a cubicle, a boss, and all the other BS of corporate life. I was living more than ok on $60k; I only left for dentistry because it got rid of everything I hated about my current career. And I know I'm not alone out there.

It'd be different if we were talking about living below the poverty line after dental school, but we're not. We're talking about whether or not we can buy a benz right out of school or not. Give me a break!

Chase the dollar all you want, but don't assume everyone else does the same, and don't bash others for putting $ lower on their list of priorities.